Women's Kollel?!?!?

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  • #602369
    telegrok
    Member

    Just saw this:

    Rosenfeld does not dispute the sincere austerity with which the men and their family lead their lives, but says the luxury of study should not be reserved to men.

    #859554
    Toi
    Participant

    yuch. Feminism strikes again.

    #859555
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    It’s unnecessary and possibly assur. Either way, no Ben Torah will accept a shidduch with their daughters.

    #859556
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It is a great idea.

    Not for married women, but for singles. It potentially is a gamechanger (much more than NASI). If I was a Rov, I would encourage girls back from seminary to join.

    #859557
    soliek
    Member

    SJSinNYC is probably there 😀

    #859558
    sushee
    Member

    The OP is a Purim joke.

    #859559
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Loyal – that would be a tremendous loss to the gene pool, then. My ancestor Alvina bas Miriam bas Rashi (also daughter of the Rivan) taught halacha and minhagim to her cousin the Ri m’Dampierre. Her cousin Chana bas Yocheved was quoted by Rabeinu Tam, her brother. later, R’Yosef Hagodol Treivish’s wife was well known for her insights in gemoro. Another ancestor, Mriam Spira/Luria, is described by both R’Yochanan Luria and R’Yoselin of Rosheim as giving gemoro shiurim from behind the mechitzah. Rebetzin Bayla Falk, daughter of R’Yiroel Idelish, was described as learned and a bas Torah by rabonim of the day. The grandaughter of the Maharal, who was also the grandmother of the Chavas Yoir, Chava Bacharach is described in Chavas Yoir as a boki in halocho, an excellent teacher, and an expert on Rashi and Targum.

    These are only a few examples. Just because you and your fellow travelers are threatened by the thought of learned women, it is no reason to denigrate their devotion to Torah. What was clearly and evidently not only allowed but encouraged by many rishonim and achronim should be praised.

    And as for shiduchim, I am proud to bear the lineage of many of these women. So are my sons and daughters.

    #859560
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Interesting!

    #859561
    ZeesKite
    Participant
    #859562
    Sam2
    Participant

    If this is real, then this at the very least is the proper way to do such a thing. No feminist flaunting, no rubbing it in people’s faces. Just women whose husbands work and therefore take the opportunity to learn Torah because they have the time. Who can honestly say there’s something wrong with that?

    #859563
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If this is real, then this at the very least is the proper way to do such a thing. No feminist flaunting, no rubbing it in people’s faces. Just women whose husbands work and therefore take the opportunity to learn Torah because they have the time. Who can honestly say there’s something wrong with that?

    I guess if that is what it is, then it is no more of a waste of time than watching movies all day. But can’t they find something productive to do?

    #859564
    sushee
    Member

    If this joke had been real, women would be prohibited from learning Torah she baal peh.

    #859565
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Since the mods are hemming and hawing about posting what I wrote earlier, I will modify it slightly to take out what might be questionable.

    Loyal – that would be a tremendous loss to the gene pool, then. My ancestor Alvina bas Miriam bas Rashi (also daughter of the Rivan) taught halacha and minhagim to her cousin the Ri m’Dampierre. Her cousin Chana bas Yocheved was quoted by Rabeinu Tam, her brother. later, R’Yosef Hagodol Treivish’s wife was well known for her insights in gemoro. Another ancestor, Mriam Spira/Luria, is described by both R’Yochanan Luria and R’Yoselin of Rosheim as giving gemoro shiurim from behind the mechitzah. Rebetzin Bayla Falk, daughter of R’Yiroel Idelish, was described as learned and a bas Torah by rabonim of the day. The grandaughter of the Maharal, who was also the grandmother of the Chavas Yoir, Chava Bacharach is described in Chavas Yoir as a boki in halocho, an excellent teacher, and an expert on Rashi and Targum.

    These are only a few examples. There is no reason to denigrate their devotion to Torah. What was clearly and evidently not only allowed but encouraged by many rishonim and achronim should be praised.

    And as for shiduchim, I am proud to bear the lineage of many of these women. So are my sons and daughters.

    #859566
    Toi
    Participant

    You gotta wonder, how much are their shverrs shtelling?

    #859567
    longarekel
    Member

    Which seminary is this?

    #859568
    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    thanks for the Laugh!!!

    A Freilichen purim everyone!!! 🙂

    #859569
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    But can’t they find something productive to do?

    Why isn’t this productive? Mistama they are learning Chullin, Shabbos, Niddah; stuff they need to know anyway.

    #859570
    BTGuy
    Participant

    I agree with Sam2.

    Who says learning Torah has to stop for a female once they are out of school?

    If someone has the desire to learn, and it works out in the family structure, then we are all benefitting and should appreciate their time learning.

    #859571

    I guess if that is what it is, then it is no more of a waste of time than watching movies all day. But can’t they find something productive to do?

    If you had no chiyuv limud hatorah would you never learn. Didnt they teach in the yeshiva you went to that torah helps a person get close to hashem and understand his ways? and that learning makes you a better person(in a different way than putting on tefilin or shiluach haken does)?

    Why cant that be an asperation a woman as well(my question is only in a case where the woman is interested in these things. you were were that there could be a case when a woman was learning not for feminism, but indicated that it would be a total waste of time )

    #859572
    sushee
    Member

    S”A writes if a woman learns Torah, it will lead her to tiflus (immorality).

    #859573
    chgoachdus
    Member

    In the Midbar there were no clothes to mend (or make) and meals were pretty easy with the mun … of course children needed tending, but wasn’t the rest of women’s time spent learning?

    #859574
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    A freilichen Pirim. I’m surprised that everyone doesn’t realize that there is no such institution, except for perhaps on Pirim!

    #859575
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A freilichen Pirim. I’m surprised that everyone doesn’t realize that there is no such institution, except for perhaps on Pirim!

    Not sure what world you live in, but there are several such institutions.

    #859576
    MDG
    Participant

    “S”A writes if a woman learns Torah, it will lead her to tiflus (immorality). “

    That’s referring to Gemara, not Halacha.

    BTW, does this place even exist ???! I can’t find it, nor any names mentioned on google.

    #859577
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sushe: That’s not what the SH”A says. You’re twisting his words.

    #859578
    sushee
    Member

    S”A YD 246:6 says its tiflus. Rashi defines tiflus as lechery. Also see Sota 21b.

    #859579
    simcha613
    Participant

    Sushe- S”A actually says that women receive schar for learning Torah but a father who teaches it to his daughter it’s as if he taught her tifuls. As I have mentioned before, if the S”A was against women learning Torah, then they wouldn’t receive a reward for learning it. S”A probably means it’s tifuls if you force it on a woman who is not receptive to it. But if she’s doing it willingly, then it’s not tiflus, but deserving of reward.

    #859580
    simcha613
    Participant

    By willingly, I mean lishmah.

    #859581
    sushee
    Member

    The S”A writes tiflus only applies to teaching her Torah she’bal peh. Nevertheless, writes S”A (in the citation above), one shouldn’t teach her Torah she’bksav either. The Rema adds that the portions of the Torah she’bksav that are relevant to women, they should be taught the simple meaning of, so that they know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.

    #859582
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sushe: Now you’re twisting the Rama too. Teaching them applicable Halachos does not only mean Torah Shebiksav. It means Halachah Lema’aseh, which always includes Torah Sheba’al Peh.

    #859583
    RSRH
    Member

    “The Rema adds that the portions of the Torah she’bksav that are relevant to women, they should be taught the simple meaning of, so that they know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.”

    The Rama can’t possibly mean what you seem to think he means. Anyone who has ever learned a little chumash and a little halacha knows that the “simple meaning” (I assume you mean p’shat) of any part of Torah Shebichsav is highly unlikely to give anyone solid direction in order for them to actually “know what to do when situations arise in life that affect them.”

    Knowing what to do in situations would require them to learn halacha – and I don’t mean kitzur shulchan aruch. Shas and poskim are what you need to understand when something is an issue and how to resolve it. And these days, for women to learn those areas of halacha that apply to them would likely include everything a man learns (after all, women are involved in the kitchen, work outside the home, give tzedakka to the collector at the door, do homework with there children, go to school, engage in business, ect), and more (since women should probably more well versed in hilchos niddah than men need to be).

    #859584
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And these days, for women to learn those areas of halacha that apply to them would likely include everything a man learns

    Everything a man learns? Maybe everything an man learns in your community.

    #859585
    Logician
    Participant

    To live according to Halacha, you do not need to be able to pasken the questions that arise. You need to understand the general idea, and have the ability to discern when to ask further.

    In Hilchos Niddah, which has been raised as an example, you can buy any of a number of excellent seforim in english, spend several hours studying it, and voila! You know how to live your life, and when to ask a question.

    Further study would be “necessary” only as the mitzvah of talmud Torah.

    #859586
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    They have to learn, to be able to mix into the conversations here…

    #859587
    tomim tihye
    Member

    My husband said it’s soooo important for me to know all the halachos that apply to me- which means I need to learn Shas and Poskim to know when something is an issue and how to resolve it.

    So I came home from my first day at kolel the same time that my husband got home from work. And we were both staaarving.

    So I fed him Shas and Poskim.

    Me? I wouldn’t touch that stuff.

    #859589
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    tomim tihye:

    Why didn’t you feed him Pas and Shoskim?

    #859590
    hershi
    Member

    Good attitude, tomim. The alternative wouldv’e involved tiflus.

    #859591
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you had no chiyuv limud hatorah would you never learn. Didnt they teach in the yeshiva you went to that torah helps a person get close to hashem and understand his ways? and that learning makes you a better person(in a different way than putting on tefilin or shiluach haken does)?

    Why cant that be an asperation a woman as well(my question is only in a case where the woman is interested in these things. you were were that there could be a case when a woman was learning not for feminism, but indicated that it would be a total waste of time )

    As I recall, my rosh yeshiva ztz”l was asked a version of this question. Chazal say that we use torah to fight the yetzer hara. So how do women fight the yetzer hara without torah?

    He said–which is actually obvious–that women have a different yetzer hara, which is not properly fought with torah. This is obvious, since Hashem made the world, and created people, and created a yetzer hara, and told the men to learn torah whenever they have any spare time, and told the women not to. We can easily expect that women are created in a way that the way they reach shleimus is not through torah.

    This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.

    #859592
    tomim tihye
    Member

    ZeesKite: Use my time for shopping? I was shteigin’ away.

    #859593
    We can easily expect that women are created in a way that the way they reach shleimus is not through torah.
    This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.

    Women can reach shleimus without lulav or shofar as well. But, don’t we have a concept of non-mechuyavim getting schar as well(gadol hametzuveh veoseh…so you see there is schar just a metzuveh is greater). I doubt you tell your mother these type of things about shofar lulav or davening. My understanding is that we consider it a good/nice thing to do.

    As for learning, is it worse than sitting in a sukah(other than the feminist implications)?

    You may answer tiflus, but that seems to be an issue with teaching and not with learning(though I imagine some may argue that point).

    So, just like there is schar for shofar or sukah, why wouldn there be schar for torah study.

    Also, as mentioned, why cant they have that exposure to hashem?

    #859594
    hershi
    Member

    Tiflus is more relevant to the woman than her teacher, since the implication is she will engage in lechery as a result of the tiflus.

    #859595
    BSD
    Member

    The feminine version of Kolel is Klalah.

    #859596
    simcha613
    Participant

    I still don’t understand why people are arguing this. The S”A is clear- women receive schar for learning. How could this be a bad thing? Why would one receive schar for doing the wrong thing? Why do we assume that any woman who wants to learn Torah is doing it for feminist reasons? What happened to dan lekaf zechus? If a woman has spare time, learning Torah is the best way to spend that time (as long as it’s not coming at the expense of Torah she is chayav in, and as long as it’s not for lo lishmah/feminist reasons).

    #859597
    avhaben
    Participant

    The SA says “Tzivo Chazal shelo yilamad adam es bito Torah, mipnei SHEROV hoanoshim ein daatan michuvonos lhislamed umotzius Divrei Torah ldivrei havai…”

    #859598
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Interestingly, one of the smartest people I ever knew was a woman who, before she passed away, finished Shas (Bavli) for the third time.

    The Wolf

    #859599
    Sam2
    Participant

    Hershi: What he meant was that the Tiflus issue is only if you (forcibly) teach a woman Torah, not if she wants to learn on her own. And you are grossly ignoring the word “K’ilu” to the point that you’re distorting the Shulchan Aruch’s words.

    #859600
    hershi
    Member

    No, Sam. S”A makes no reference or distinction whether she is forced or not. That is your own distortion.

    #859601
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This addresses your question as well. If a woman learns torah, she will not become closer to Hashem through it. If she says she is, you know that it is not Hashem she is becoming closer to.

    You have just refuted the entire concept of Da’as Torah. Mazel Tov.

    #859602
    simcha613
    Participant

    hershi- so according to the S”A (and I don’t think anyone argues on the S”A) the women receive schar for engaging in something that leads to tiflus?

    #859603
    yichusdik
    Participant

    So, Hershi, are you saying to the descendants of the Maharal, Chavas Yoir, Rashi, the Falks, the Spira’s, Lurias, Treivishes oh, and by the way, the Rema who was also a descendant of these women, and assorted Horowitzes, Halberstams, and dozens of other families have a mesorah of learned women respected by their male relatives who were Rishonim and Acharonim are wrong to be inspired by them and should rather be ashamed that they were involved in tiflus?

    Please, be clear. It is obvious you have an insight that Rabbeinu Tam and R’YOsf hagodol Treivish overlooked. Please, share with us.

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