April 26, 2012 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1163102
Oh, and just one more demonstration of how misguided your position is, Health. Do you know where the Prime Minister was this morning in Israel? He was attending the annual Worldwide Chidon haTanach, Held every Yom Haatzmaut, a contest on knowledge of Tanach. Prime Ministers have been coming for decades, to give kovod to Torah on Yom Haatzmaut, and there is even a special question they traditionally ask to the contestants. This Prime Minister’s son happens to be a religious young man, and he came in third place 2 years ago. Hmmm. must come from a home where torah is ignored, right?April 26, 2012 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1163103
yichusdik -“Well, Health, that’s certainly a convincing response. It’s OK, though. I understand that it is hard to change a misguided way of thinking in a flash. I’ll daven for you.”
The only one that is misguided is you! I’d say I’d Daven for you, but there are too many like you. I’ll just Daven – that Hashem should bring Moshiach ASAP!
“Oh, and just one more demonstration of how misguided your position is, Health. Hmmm. must come from a home where torah is ignored, right?”
My post wasn’t against individual politicians – which is another one of sneaky tactics. Actually Bibi is one of the better ones -probably since Begin.
It was against the Medina. I don’t know if you are aware, but the Medina is based on Kefira. It’s sad that you tend to ignore this fact.
Btw, you didn’t answer my question -did even one speech given on Rememberance day mention G-d?!?!?April 26, 2012 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1163104Working on itParticipant
I am both enraged and saddened by some of the posts on this topic. To think that some people who call themselves “frum” can go on and bash other jews and their level of observance and religious orientation is appalling. I guess they don’t teach the story of Rabbi Akiva in those “yeshivos”. I bet they wouldn’t even allow him to attend their yeshiva since he was a BT – after all, how much can he really know? This is the epitome of sinas chinam. This is the reason his talmidim died during this time. They were too busy burying their head in seforim to acknowledge their fellow jews with respect.
Why is it so difficult for you “frum” posters to exhibit some humility and respect the fact that there are people who lost fathers, brothers, sons etc.. and they choose to remember them on this day? Some of you say that there is no tehillim said today – HOW DO YOU KNOW? My shul had a very moving maariv yesterday with several kepittel tehillim lezecher nishatam. Even if you disagree with the “medina”, as you are all fond of pointing out, why can’t you recognize that for many, this is a day to commemorate the people who gave their lives to save others. These are JEWS who died to protect other JEWS! They did not ask what kind of Jew you are. They did not care what kind of kippa you wear, what shul you daven at or if you eat gebrokts. They just went out and put themselves in harms way so that others can live safely.
You may be better versed than me on many topics but it seems that there is one crucial subject that yeshivas seem to be leaving out of their curriculum – Derech Eretz.April 26, 2012 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1163105🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
And they dont seem to realize that watching what goes into their mouths but not what comes out of their mouths does not make them better Jews. They are like the big brother who beats up the little brother. When confronted by his dad he says, ‘I did it for you dad! He was doing something to shame you.’ Dad responds, ‘You fool! He is my child. Do you think hurting my child to save my pride brings me relief? Next time leave me to take care of my childrens discipline since only I know what each deserves.’April 26, 2012 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1163106
Health, I was at an asifah for Yom Hazikaron at the largest orthodox shul in North America last night. There were over 1500 frum Jews there, and the Consul General of Israel who is leaving his post after 5 years in our city was honored and spoke officially. He spoke of HKBH’s protection, he clearly (and I have heard him say this elsewhere) described the frum community he was addressing as the bedrock of support for Israel in a city whose Jewish community, secular and frum alike, is known for its support for Israel. So, there. An official representative of the State of Israel doing exactly what you say they don’t do.
The Medina as imperfect as it is, is unambiguously part of HKBH’s plan for the atchalta degeulah. A geulah which is for all of am yisroel, not just those who have your world view. Again, I have you in my tfilos, and may you have the brocho of wisdom bestowed and the burden of misdirected kanous removed.April 27, 2012 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1163107
Syag Lchochma -“They are like the big brother who beats up the little brother. When confronted by his dad he says, ‘I did it for you dad! He was doing something to shame you.’ Dad responds, ‘You fool! He is my child. Do you think hurting my child to save my pride brings me relief? Next time leave me to take care of my childrens discipline since only I know what each deserves.'”
Yes, this Moshol would apply in a case where you shouldn’t give Musser. But there are cases where one must give Musser.April 27, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1163108
yichusdik -“Health, I was at an asifah for Yom Hazikaron at the largest orthodox shul in North America last night. There were over 1500 frum Jews there, and the Consul General of Israel who is leaving his post after 5 years in our city was honored and spoke officially. He spoke of HKBH’s protection, he clearly (and I have heard him say this elsewhere) described the frum community he was addressing as the bedrock of support for Israel in a city whose Jewish community, secular and frum alike, is known for its support for Israel. So, there. An official representative of the State of Israel doing exactly what you say they don’t do.”
Are you kidding? These people are expert politicians. Do you think he is going to speak to Orthodox Jews and praise Yoshka?
I’ll repeat – Name one politician in Israel speaking to the General Public and they mentioned G-d on these Israeli Holidays!!!!!
“The Medina as imperfect as it is, is unambiguously part of HKBH’s plan for the atchalta degeulah. A geulah which is for all of am yisroel, not just those who have your world view.”
Read my posts in the other Israeli politic topics regarding this.
“Again, I have you in my tfilos, and may you have the brocho of wisdom bestowed and the burden of misdirected kanous removed.”
Again, I have you & other Zionists in my tifilos, and may you have the brocho of wisdom bestowed and the burden of this belief in this Medina removed!April 27, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1163109OneOfManyParticipant
Syag: +1April 27, 2012 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1163110interjectionParticipant
Put aside your political stance for a moment and acknowledge that everything about the Land of Israel is a miracle. And have some appreciation for the Israeli soldiers (our brethren) who give up their lives for the Jewish Nation.April 27, 2012 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1163111
The vast majority of Chilonim lack proper Torah background yet I saw many of them on video,thanking Hashem for being able to live in Eretz Yisroel, many Davening by the Kotel, many wearing Yarlmukas and others saying Kel Molay Rachamim by Yom Hazikaron. They don’t really know about the complete valditiy of Torah but still did not deny that only Hashem is the one to give thanks to during joyous occasions and is also in charge of the next world and Techiyas Hameisim.
Are we always so careful to say every word of tefilla slowly, not say lashon Hara,Kovea Itim properly,Zariz to do Mitzvos,give enough Tzedaka to be an Ohaiv Shalom viRodef Shalom.
While the average Chiloni is sorely lacking in appreciating the beauty of Torah we have that special zechus that we are as knowledgeable about Yiddishkeit as much as we are.
We are all judged on our own level:
Who in your opinion should be judged more harshly us or them?
Isn’t it wonderful that Hashem has Rachamim and loves all of usApril 27, 2012 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1163112
Is Ponevezh an M.O. or a Mizrachi yeshiva???
The hareidi-religious community in Israel largely abstains from Independence Day celebrations. However, this year as every year, the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, a large and respected institution, marked the day by raising the Israeli flag.
Was Rav Kahaneman z”l an evil Tziyoni – or did he just maybe recognize a nais min ha’shamayim when he witnessed one?April 27, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1163113🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Health – no opposition to Musser, I was specifically referring to condescension, humiliation and inflicting pain. BTW – if I may add that I have been very impressed with your efforts in the tone of your posts, thank you. I hope you don’t mind me saying so,April 27, 2012 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1163114ZeesKiteParticipant
Please, please, I don’t want to get mixed into this debacle again. JUST ONE POINT about Ponevezh flying a flag. It means nothing about him / them becoming a zionist of mizrahi. It just means he has “mitgefeel”, plain decency and courtesy. Same as flying a flag in America on July fourth. Especially if one is benefiting from the government. Of course, show your respect, acknowledgement. (Do any of the bochurim learning inside have any idea about that flag, the day, the events?)April 27, 2012 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1163115
Health- I understand that most of the government officials don’t thank Hashem publicly. First of all they are probably not frum, and they wren’t raised that way. They are tinokos shenishbu and they probably aren’t so responsible for those actions. It’s more likely our responsibility to help them see the light. And also, why can’t you be a little dan lekaf zechus? They probably do thank Hashem privately, and while we know it’s a wonderful thing to do so publicly as well, maybe they just feel uncomfortable doing so.
Either way, this is all irrelevant. The fact is, is that since hakamas hamedinah there are more Jews, Torah, and Tefilah in E”Y since probably the end of Bayis Sheini. Derech Hateva tells you that it is because of the medinah, which means in reality that it was Hashem using the medinah as a messenger. I’m not sure why so many people want to think that the Torah and Tefilah and everything good that came since 1948 is in spite of the medinah. That doesn’t make any logical sense.
Assuming that Hashem was using the medina as a messenger to deliver all of these wonderful things to Klal Yisroel, doesn’t it make sense to show the medinah hakaras hatov? Doesn’t it make sense to show Hashem hakaras hatov for giving us the medinah and everything good that comes with it? It just seems like bad midos to try and look for every little bad thing the medinah has done just so we can ignore the good and pretend that we don’t have a responsibility of hakaras hatov.April 27, 2012 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1163116msseekerMember
Wrong, ZK. The flag means one thing: $$$.April 27, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1163117
“It just means he has “mitgefeel”, plain decency and courtesy… Of course, show your respect, acknowledgement.”
Fine! So if a well respected chareidi Rosh Yeshiva could do that, why do so many commenters here feel that THEY can NOT do that – or even LESS than that – I would not even expect any of the anti-Zionist types here to fly the Israeli flag, BUT how about just showing a bit less venom, and a bit more “decency and courtesy” towards others that feel differently than you do.April 27, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1163118
More and more and more Yidden have been moving to Eretz Yisroel since the late 1800’s. No thanks to the medina.April 27, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1163119
derszoger- until Britain made a quote and stopped legal immigration. The medinah however made it much easier to move to the country. No quotas and Law of Return. No other foreign government would have had anything like that. Thanks medinah!April 27, 2012 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1163120
derszoger, please, please learn some history. Seek out evidence from primary sources, immigration documents and statistics. You will find out that much of the immigration in the late 19th century was secular zionist, but it was relatively small. Many chareidi Jews, Yerushalmim, in fact thousands, including my great grandparents actually left at the onset of severe Turkish persecution during WW1, and lots of them didn’t come back, going instead to the US. Much of the immigration up until the British firmly closed the door in the 30’s was encouraged, facilitated, and arranged by the Jewish Agency, which was the forerunner of the government. Do you think the medinah started out of thin air? Chaim Weizmann was working for Jewish immigration forty years before the creation of the medinah of which he was the first president.April 27, 2012 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1163121msseekerMember
Does the Ponevezh Rosh Yeshiva fly a flag from his home?April 27, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1163122
Listen Guys. I love when people talk and they don’t know what they are saying. They hear half of stories and use it against the Medina. The Medina gives more money to Yeshivot then any other organization in the world. To all those Charedim who sit and learn in Eretz Yisrael its because the Medina gives them the money to run there Yeshivot.
The medina Protects every single Yid in the entire Eretz Yisrael whether your Charedi Or Tzioni. It allows Jews to safely visit holy places like the Kotel and Ma’arat Hamachpelah for the first time in 2,000 years.
Does anyone think that the Tzahal would have one the war of independence or the six day war or any other war without open miracles from Hashem, I think that shows us that Hashem wants us to go and live in Eretz Yisrael Under the Medina. Mashiach will not come until the Jews run Eretz Yisrael. We need the Medina to be able to truly contra Eretz Yisrael. We need it so much more then you think.
The government closes down the streets in Yerushalayim and all public transportation on shabbos. LOok in times of Tanach what the kings did, they worshipped Avoda Zara in the Beis Hamikdash. We cannot run the country on Halacha until Mashiach comes anyway. So maybe the Government isn’t religious but many of there decisions are based on Halachah.
People don’t understand that before the army goes out to battle they blow a shofar like they did in the times of Tanach. That at the end of the six day war they blew the shofar for the first time in 2000 years. That every solider fights with a tehillim. That very solider that dies, dies Al Kidush Hashem, as a Karban to Hashem. That every public school teaches the children about Tanach. How can that not bring joy to you that this is all possible because of the Medina.
If its good enough for some of the greatest Gedolim like Rav Kook and Rav Solevetchik then it should be good enough for everybody. These Gedolim had reasons for supporting the Medina. So before you open up your mouth and say something stupid especially on a post of a Chayil that risked his life for those sitting in yeshiva think and then realize what you are going to say is not smart.
If you don’t want to listen to my argument, don’t. just give a little hakaras hatov for what the Government does for every Yid in Eretz Yisrael. Like Rav Cahanaman and the Punivitch Yeshiva.April 27, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1163123
What is it with guys like you who keep confusing many commenters WITH FACTS!!!
Most people here don’t want to hear simple facts – like that without the IDF every Jew in E.Y. would be slaughtered within a few days, and that for all the zechusim of the gedolim, I don’t think even THEY would say that they merit the neesim geluyim that would be needed for continued survival WITHOUT the IDF!
So, for all the medina’s many flaws, how about a bit of hakaras hatov to the sons and husbands and fathers and brothers who put their lives on the line in the IDF, defending EVERY Jew in Israel regardless of whether they are Tziyonim or anti-Tziyoni.April 27, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1163124
Talmidim of the Vilna Gaon and the Baal Shem Tov have been moving to Eretz Yisroel since the early 1700’s. The number of Chareidim moving to EY has been increasing since that time. Long before and no thanks to the late-coming Zionists, who only started immigrating much much later than the Chareidim.
Yes, the British after ousting the Ottomons, placed quotas limiting immigration. But the Zionists were responsible for that British response due to their provoking the Arabs with their constant angling to take over political control of Palestine. So no thanks to the zionists for eliminating the very British quotas they were effectively responsible for happening in the first place. And, btw, because the Zionists instigated the British to impose those quotas, more Jews died in the holocaust. That is what you can thank the Zionists for.
As far as current government funding of Yeshivas are concerned, that is a fair kasha. And, indeed, many Yeshivas including Brisk and many Chasidisha yeshivas refuse to take a penny in government funds, even though they are legally entitled to that money. And the ones that do take, their students families pay more in taxes than they receive in student subsidies and tuition payments from the government. And as far as utilities and protection and street paving, etc, the Chareidim lived without it in EY prior to the Zionists and never asked for it.April 27, 2012 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1163125
AOM: First the Zionists instigate the Arabs against the Jews in EY, then the Jews have to thank the Zionists for protecting them from the Arab response to their instigations? I don’t think so. (Yes, even 1929 was a response to the Zionist provocations.)April 27, 2012 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1163126
Facts are exact;y what people need to hear. People need to understand that they would not be able to live the way they do in Eretz Yisral without the Medina. The IDF is part of the government and you need to give Hakaras Hatov to bothe the Government and the Medina.
How can You criticize the Zionists for what the British Did to us, those brave men who fought for our right to have a country saved all the holocaust survivors who were sent to camps after the war. The Zionists are responsible fro saving thousands of holocausts survivors. Not only saving them, But giving these people a hope that one day Jews would be able to live in peace in a Jewish country. The Jewish country will prevent a chance of another Jewish Holocaust.
There are hundred of Yeshivas in Eretz Yisrael that would not survive without the government funding. Because a few Yeshivas won’t take it, its there problem, there not being smart.April 27, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1163127
dersooger- you cant have your cake an eat it too. The 1929 riots probably had more to do with Jews making aliyah then with their ideological opposition to Zionism. So you want to blame the Zionists for inciting the Arabs, but not give them any credit for Jews moving to EY.
What probably happened is Zionsim inspired more and more Jews to move to EY. That also upset and incited the Arabs. So the Zionists took it upon themselves to protect the Jews in EY (both the ones who they inspired to come and shared their ideology and those that didn’t).April 27, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1163128
The Zionists were complicit with the Nazis in the murder of European Jewry. Read about Head Hungarian Zionist Rudolf Kastner’s complicity with Nazi Adolf Eichmann in having Hungarian Jewry lead to the gas chambers. Or how the Zionists impeded the trucks-deal that could have saved Jewish lives from the Nazis. Or when Weitzman said one cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jewish lives in Europe.
The local Arabs didn’t rise up against Jewish immigration to Palestine until the Zionists made clear they wanted to take political control of Palestine. That is what lead to the 1929 massacre and other atrocities.April 27, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1163129Sam2Participant
Ders: Motzi Shem Ra about a dead person is a serious offense. Actually learn what Kastner did and next time present what he did wrong (if anything) in an honest way.April 27, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1163130
You like every other Anti-Semite out there you put every single Zionist in the same Category just like anti-semites do to jews.. I doubt what your saying is true about his complicity with Eichman, but even if it was that makes every zionists like him.
DO u know how many thousands of JEws were killed in the 1800’s under the british mandate. You clearly don’t know history so stop making things up.April 27, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1163131
Yes, he was in cahoots with Adolff Eichmann. He hid the Vrba-Wetzler report detailing the trains were going to death camps. Even AFTER THE WAR WAS OVER, he testified on behalf of Nazis (Kurt Becher) in the Nuremberg war crimes trials, to get the Nazis off the hook. Read Perfidy (authored by a Zionist ironically) and Zionist Judge Haleivi’s conviction of Kastner on multiple counts. (Later a higher Zionist court tried to cover it up by overturning most — but not all — of the counts.)April 27, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1163132Sam2Participant
Ders: Kastner made a deal with Eichmann. He saved over 1500 Jews by hiding that report. No one knows what would have happened if he had publicized things and not gotten that train full of Jews out. Maybe more would have lived; maybe more would have died. But to just make a blanket statement that he was “in cahoots with Eichmann” is Motzi Shem Ra.
And one Zionist doing such a thing doesn’t make the whole Holocaust the Zionists’ fault. Nor does it even say anything about any other Zionist. Can I call all Chareidim murderers if I can find one Chareidi in history who ever committed murder?April 27, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1163133
derszoger- So, I guess your point is that since many of the early Zionists did bad things, that dooms the entire Zionist movement to failure from the start. And therefore, we can, no, we must ignore all of the good that has come out of it, all of the Jews that were able to make aliyah, all of the yeshivos that were able to be founded and funded, all the Torah and Tefilah that is now flourishing in Eretz Yisroel as never before and criticize and degrade as much of it as we can?April 27, 2012 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1163134
Kastner’s got one train of 1600 people, mostly filled up with his family, friends and zionist officials. He threw in a handful of Torah Jews to cover who it was mostly filled with. In return for this favor to him by Eichmann (of allowing this train out) he facilitated, with Eichmann, the murder of 550,000+ Hungarian Jews. Eichmann himself said that he could never have murdered the 550,000+ Hungarian Jews without the help he got from Kastner.
The Zionists don’t deserve one iota of credit for the Torah in EY which is flourishing DESPITE them and their efforts to impede it. I addressed the money issue above. It began flourishing before them and will continue flourishing long after they are gone.April 29, 2012 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1163136
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Yom Haatzmaus falls out every year when we are mourning those who died for not treating others with respect. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this year Yom Hatzamaus fell out in the week we read the parshah for the punishment for loshon hara. The amount of disgusting disrespect and near-hate that is going towards our fellow Jews who are Zionists, whether religious or not-yet-religious, seems to imply that we have not learned the lesson of the death of the Talmidim of R’ Akiva.April 29, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1163137
derszoger, i know who was on the kastner train i know what took place. I also know that more then a handful of Torah jews were saved through his efforts, not only on the train but also literally thousands of others . I also know about the investigation a few years ago by scholars wanting to show how evil and wrong Kastner was and discredit him completly. After interviewing witnesses and going over ream upon ream of documents, they actually said that Kastner should be exonerated.April 29, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1163138ZeesKiteParticipant
simcha613: It’s no coincidence because those mechalelei Shabbos decided it to be just then!
If I’m not mistaken, I think loshon hora applies to the living. It’s a chumra (cherem) not to speak about those not living.
It would be no loshon hara if they would be alive either, they were porkei ohl.
btw does anyone here know when the actual ‘declaration’ procession occurred? Was it on a Thursday ‘mukdam’, or on a Friday close/after to shkia?April 29, 2012 3:07 am at 3:07 am #1163139
“And as far as utilities and protection and street paving, etc, the Chareidim lived without it in EY prior to the Zionists and never asked for it.”
I think the Gemara says that the halacha is is that if someone goes onto your property without you asking for it, and does a benefit for you, then you have to pay him for it. So even though in our case the Charedim did not ask for it, you cannot argue that they don’t benefit from it, so they are are chayav at the very least to show hakaras hatov to the ones who gave it to them.April 29, 2012 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1163140interjectionParticipant
The actual declaration was before Shkiya. It was Friday afternoon and approaching Shkiya when the Jewish People’s Council chose to declare it a state before Shkiya in order that the the absolute genesis of the Medina would not involve Chillul Shabbat.
This is the same reason the day is never celebrated on a Friday, Shabbat or Sunday.April 29, 2012 3:43 am at 3:43 am #1163141
abc: His entire family was on the train and the vast majority of the rest were zionist officials and their families. The Torah Jews were a small portion. The “investigation” and film from a few years ago was started and conducted by zionists in a bad attempt to rehabilitate his image. Like said, the author of Perfidy and Israeli Judge Haleivi, who convicted Kastner, are zionists themselves who acknowledged his murderous evil.April 29, 2012 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1163142
actually, the investigation was run partially by goyim, 2)your information about who was saved is off many orthodox and rabbonim were saved 3) I actually, knew one of the secular zionists ( a well known professor )who truly wanted to further villify Kastner. He pushed for exoneration, after completing his investigation. I am not asking in a mocking way but am curious if you please, where is your info from? As I know of people saved by him, people originally involved in the rescue efforts as well as people including Rabbonim and rebbes who felt that he actually did not deserve the accusations leveled against him.April 29, 2012 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1163143
Anna Porter’s hack job is a joke and Gaylen Ross’ film is Hollywood material. The train was overwhelmingly filled with his cronies and their families. If you want to know what the rabbonim say about him, read Rav Michoel Dov Weissmandel ztvk’l zy’a’s Sefer. He was directly involved in the rescue of European Jewry during the holocaust.April 29, 2012 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1163145
I am sorry of course I am aware of Rav weismandl and the other sides promoted by galen ross and ann porter.I cant get into it over here,but not everything is always so black and white as it may seem. I do commend you that you are knowledgeable of all publicly aware coverage of the kastner topic (rav weismandl, ross porter etc..) but there is more.I will disclose, that a certain Chasidish Rebbe that I know of (now in the Olam Haemes) a few years ago was going to print a book similar to Rav weismandel, after digging deeper he felt that Kastner did not deserve it and shelved the project. As with any controversial topic the truth,for better or worse is not always easy to find.
Have a very Gut Vuch and Simchas.April 29, 2012 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1163146
Not everything is black and white, but in the case at hand he is pure evil.
Gut VochApril 30, 2012 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1163149
simcha613 -“Health- I understand that most of the government officials don’t thank Hashem publicly. First of all they are probably not frum, and they wren’t raised that way. They are tinokos shenishbu and they probably aren’t so responsible for those actions. It’s more likely our responsibility to help them see the light. And also, why can’t you be a little dan lekaf zechus? They probably do thank Hashem privately, and while we know it’s a wonderful thing to do so publicly as well, maybe they just feel uncomfortable doing so.”
I wasn’t judging up individuals. I was saying that the Medina is based on Kefira. So I wouldn’t expect them to mention G-d.
“Either way, this is all irrelevant. The fact is, is that since hakamas hamedinah there are more Jews, Torah, and Tefilah in E”Y since probably the end of Bayis Sheini. Derech Hateva tells you that it is because of the medinah, which means in reality that it was Hashem using the medinah as a messenger. I’m not sure why so many people want to think that the Torah and Tefilah and everything good that came since 1948 is in spite of the medinah. That doesn’t make any logical sense.”
Well, I think all Yidden would be there already with Moshiach, if not for the creation of the Medina.
“Assuming that Hashem was using the medina as a messenger to deliver all of these wonderful things to Klal Yisroel, doesn’t it make sense to show the medinah hakaras hatov? Doesn’t it make sense to show Hashem hakaras hatov for giving us the medinah and everything good that comes with it? It just seems like bad midos to try and look for every little bad thing the medinah has done just so we can ignore the good and pretend that we don’t have a responsibility of hakaras hatov.”
Hakoras Hatov for the good, small things that they do -yes, even if the larger picture of the Medina is bad.
And Btw, Hakoras Hatov works both ways. The Israelis have to have Hakoras Hatov for all the people learning Torah full time -this protects e/o from the enemies.April 30, 2012 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1163150Josh31Participant
“Well, I think all Yidden would be there already with Moshiach, if not for the creation of the Medina.”
This is a very bold presumption.
Only a Tested Navi (prophet) can make such a statement.April 30, 2012 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1163151peacefullMember
I think, if i may, that if we would separate each topic for itself, with honesty, then we would have a lot less disagreements & more Sholom Al Yisroel .
Take for instance those solders that lost their lives for Eretz Yisroel & Am Yisroel , whether or not their intentions were for “Hashem & his Torah” They still lost their lives for Eretz Yisroel & Am Yisroel, they ARE Kidoishim, we’ve heard stories of those that came back in the dreams of others & let them know that they are considered in Oilom Habah as Kidoshim only they couldn’t enjoy their reward since they didn’t have any Zchus of Torah…
On the other hand if you’d like to discuss the intentions of the “Midinah” that doesn’t need much of explanation, it’s defiantly not in any direction of “Hashem & his Torah” . However we can discuss the fact that in-spite to their intentions, Eretz Yisroel did become the home land for Torah & Avodas Hashem.
Now we have another point to discuss, the people of Israel. It’s true that a Jew even a Choloni is still a Jew & will be warm to another Jew including the Charedim too, unless they’re deeply imbittered of the Charadim etc .April 30, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1163152
Health- are you saying that the medinah is the reason Mashiach isn’t here?May 1, 2012 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1163153
simcha613 -“Health- are you saying that the medinah is the reason Mashiach isn’t here?”
If you’re talking about the here and now -we have many problems, not just the Medina.
I was talking about right after WWII. I think Moshiach would have come if they hadn’t made the Medina.May 1, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1163154Josh31Participant
“I think Moshiach would have come if they hadn’t made the Medina.”
Bold assertions regarding Moshiah are very damaging.
Statements like this create an IRON WALL between many Jews and their Father in Heaven.May 2, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1163155
Josh31 -“Bold assertions regarding Moshiah are very damaging.
Statements like this create an IRON WALL between many Jews and their Father in Heaven.”
Your mistake is that you think I made these assertions – Gedolim have.
The only ones who are making any Iron Walls are those Jews who don’t believe in Hashem like many Freye.
Read the News about them (Israeli cops) arresting a Jew for complaining about an Arab harrassing his kid. Being so PC and so assimilated also creates an IRON WALL between Jews & Hashem!
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