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mikehall12382 -“I am a Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.”
health – I am an ANTI-Zionist and proud of it. There is nothing anybody in this world could say to me that will change my mind, not even for a second.
No one can convince me – in other words my position is not built on logic, and therefore is not subject to debate.
Thanks for sharing your feelings, then. Do you like pizza ?
Health – would you care to elaborate on the practical nafka mina of this “chiluk” of yours ? Its muttar in both cases, but the difference in source (which has the nafka mina by lishma) makes it a “bigger” ptur ? What does this mean ?
Sam2 – not much to add, PBA did a fine job. I notice his last post went unanswered. It reminded me of the idea that a benoni between gedolim should hide what he does, and even in front of other benonim only do publically that which they will learn from. So to do something “all” frum women don’t do, and flaunt it publically, what does that say ?
interjection – learning halacha is def. encouraged. You can certainly learn enough there, in a way everyone would be ok with, to become quite knowledgable, and not have to c”v be dependent on others for much of what you do.
Logician -“Health – would you care to elaborate on the practical nafka mina of this “chiluk” of yours ? Its muttar in both cases, but the difference in source (which has the nafka mina by lishma) makes it a “bigger” ptur ? What does this mean ?”
I was pretty clear what I was talking about. If you would read all the posts -you would understand. It wasn’t a stand alone post.
Yes, i read your posts. Like Sam2, I don’t really get it.
Logician -“Yes, i read your posts. Like Sam2, I don’t really get it.”
Oh, he got it alright. He just probably won’t admit it.
Bikitzur, what I was saying is – if a woman decides to Chap as many Mitzvos as possible, including Mitzvos Asey Shehazman Groma, wearing Tzitzis won’t be on the top of the list.
So why do these women put on Tzitzis then? Because they are FEMINISTS!
Health – I agree to that, but not because of your sevorah. I think Sam2 is taken in by their sincere attitudes, because they don’t admit to themselves what their motives are !
I just think your sevorah is narishkeit. In both cases nashim are patur, and in both cases they could get schar. So where are you coming from that by tzitzis they’re “mufka”, and its somehow “lower” on the list ?
Logician -Simple. Because there is a special Drosha that they are. So it has to be lower on the list whether you like it or not.
I could have easily said -that this Drosha pulls them totally out of the Mitzva of Tzitzis and they get No Schar for wearing them and they can’t even make a Brocha. (Not like those that say they can wear Tzitzis and they can also make a Brocha.)
According to Rav Moshe (Iggerot Moshe Orech Chaim 4:49) a woman may wear tzitziot if she makes a four-cornered garment which is not a keli gever. Only tefillin are out because of the requirememnt of bodily and mental cleanliness.
Yes, you could have said, but you didn’t. So you are working with the assumption that they do. If so, your words have no meaning. You just made up an idea, with a non-existent nafka minah. There is no “higher” or “lower” on the list. Either they can do it, or not. Ssaying “its not AS much” without a nafka minah is senseless.
Logician – Your point is totally ridiculous. I don’t need a Nafka Mina for my point to Sam.
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. This isn’t a Yeshiva.
Sam said that this woman was a Yoray Shomayim and my point was that a big Yoray Shomayim wouldn’t pick Tzitzis as the Mitzva they want to keep. I listed more than this reason (Go read my posts) -so I don’t know why you are harping on this one. So I told him the reason they keep this one is because of Feminism.
Health: Both Logician and I understood that point. And, who knows, you may be right. It’s not my place to judge her. However, your reason for saying that Tzitzis is less than other Mitzvos was just not correct, which is what Logician is also pointing out.
Sam2 -“Health: Both Logician and I understood that point. And, who knows, you may be right. It’s not my place to judge her. However, your reason for saying that Tzitzis is less than other Mitzvos was just not correct, which is what Logician is also pointing out.”
It is correct. There is a special Drosha that women are Mufka from Tzitzis. Acc. to those that say women can wear Tzitzis anyway, I have no idea if there is any Nafka Mina besides they can’t make Tzitzis. You and him can bang your heads together thinking of one.
I’m just happy you understood my main point, whether you understand this one or not.
I’m only bringing up this topic because of the other topic regarding a woman learning Daf Yomi.
simcha613 -“So you have to reconcile the beginning of that halachah that they have sechar with the end that it is not allowed to be taught to them. If you say that there is an issur for women to learn Gemara, why would S”A add the part that they receive sechar? What does that add practically?
So, you could argue that it adds nothing practically, and the S”A was just saying that theoretically they receive sechar but Chazal made an issur for them to learn. IMHO, if that were the case, S”A should have left it out. Are there any other Mitzvos that women are theoretically allowed to do and probably receive sechar for it but Chazal assured it, and the S”A told us all that? Does the S”A say that women receive sechar for wearing tzitizs or tefilin, but Chazal said they aren’t allowed to?
The way I’ve learned it is that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara and she receives sechar for it, as long as she genuinely wants to learn for lishmah reasons. However it cannot be taught to her, in other words it cannot be imposed on her. The issur is on the male (or female) teacher, not the female learner. The teacher has the responsibility to make sure that she wants to do it for the right reasons, and only then can she be taught.
Just to clarify- the reason why I understand that when the S”A says one is not allowed to teach his daughter Torah means it cannot be imposed on her, is because assuming that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara (which would explain why the S”A chose to tell us that they receive sechar for learning), I don’t think the S”A means they are allowed to learn but they are not allowed to be taught.
How can you learn without being taught?”
Exactly; so both are Ossur! There are a lot of Krumme things in your post that I’d like to point out. What I’m basically saying is that the S’A would not hold like the Drisha/Prisha!
“So, you could argue that it adds nothing practically, and the S”A was just saying that theoretically they receive sechar but Chazal made an issur for them to learn. IMHO, if that were the case, S”A should have left it out. Are there any other Mitzvos that women are theoretically allowed to do and probably receive sechar for it but Chazal assured it, and the S”A told us all that? Does the S”A say that women receive sechar for wearing tzitizs or tefilin, but Chazal said they aren’t allowed to?”
This paragraph makes sense, but Not your conclusion!
“The way I’ve learned it is that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara and she receives sechar for it, as long as she genuinely wants to learn for lishmah reasons.”
Well how do you know this woman will learn Lishma? It’s Ossur because of “Lo Plug”, unless the woman is “Borur” like “Bruria” that she can. And noone nowadays can claim that she is like her.
“However it cannot be taught to her, in other words it cannot be imposed on her. The issur is on the male (or female) teacher, not the female learner. The teacher has the responsibility to make sure that she wants to do it for the right reasons, and only then can she be taught.”
Here you agree that they are equal and I say it’s Ossur for both!
“So you have to reconcile the beginning of that halachah that they have sechar with the end that it is not allowed to be taught to them. If you say that there is an issur for women to learn Gemara, why would S”A add the part that they receive sechar? What does that add practically?”
This is where you start on your Krumme path. Obviously the S’A is saying about Sechar for a practical reason. Did it ever occur to you that there are times when it would be Mutter for a woman to learn and/or be taught Torah SheBaal Peh and them learning ALL Torah SheBaal Peh doesn’t have to be Mutter? An example would be Halachos that they have to know in order for them to keep the Mitzvos that they are required to keep. This doesn’t include Daf Yomi!
Health- I don’t think that’s what the S”A meant. The Rama is clear that a woman is obligated to learn the practical things. The S”A however opens up that they get sechar for learning, but they don’t get as much sechar as a man because they aren’t obligated to do it! Obviously he is not talking about the practical areas, because they are obligated to learn those things and would get the same sechar as a man! The S”A meant she gets sechar for those areas of Torah where she isn’t obligated to learn like the non practical areas of Torah Sheba’al Peh, but it’s not allowed to be taught to her. How do we reconcile these two statements? I stand by what I said before. It can’t be imposed on women in general but a woman who is lishmah can learn and will receive sechar.
The medina does not represent Judaism and neither does the IDF.
simcha613 – “The Rama is clear that a woman is obligated to learn the practical things. The S”A however opens up that they get sechar for learning, but they don’t get as much sechar as a man because they aren’t obligated to do it! Obviously he is not talking about the practical areas, because they are obligated to learn those things and would get the same sechar as a man! The S”A meant she gets sechar for those areas of Torah where she isn’t obligated to learn like the non practical areas of Torah Sheba’al Peh, but it’s not allowed to be taught to her. How do we reconcile these two statements? I stand by what I said before. It can’t be imposed on women in general but a woman who is lishmah can learn and will receive sechar.”
I wouldn’t expect you to admit that you are wrong. Since you don’t understand the S’A you decided to throw out the part of Tiflos and say it only applies Shelo Lishma. This is totally ridiculous. If there was a Mitzva for them to learn everything then it wouldn’t make a difference whether it was Lishma or not.
Ever hear of Mitoch Shelo Lisma Boh Lishma. I know what you’ll say -I decided this doesn’t apply to women.
Your agenda (Negious) is causing you to Krum up the Halacha of S’A. Me personally your Kashos on that Simon of S’A aren’t that great to change the Poshut Pshat. But for you that thinks these Kashos are so great we have to say women are allowed and get a Mitzva for learning everything I’ll give you an answer. On the other topic a poster brings down the Sefer Chassidim and he says even though you can teach them the Halachos that apply to them, don’t go to deep. So you can simply say when the S’A says they get Sechar for learning it means learning things that applies to them and they get Sechar even if they learn deep. So you have no Rayah that the S’A permitted women learning All Torah Shebaal Peh!
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It may be tzimchat hageulah but we must nevertheless fight the zionist regime.
Oooohhhh
Such good times we had years ago…. Where’s everyone today?!?
Yes, Rabbi of Crawley. Methinks the sicarrim who fought against other Jews based on their certainty that their derech was the right one in the face of challenges both physical and spiritual from within the Jewish nation and from the Romans outside it had the same perspective.
It worked out really well for them, and all of the Jews of the time, didn’t it?
Well, if you want to fight the Zionist regime, go ahead. I’m tired of trying to convince people here to do otherwise. And the things that the Israeli government does that seem to be about antagonism and power don’t help the issue.
But the caricature of Zionism repeated here ad nauseum is not something to fight. You’d be punching at shadows. As I’ve said before, based on 25 years of conversations with Israelis, including with people like Shimon Peres, the late Yitzchak Rabin, other former PM’s MK’s, Generals, academics, and Joes on the street, you have a super inflated sense of self importance. Those who you term the “Zionist Regime” don’t give a flying fiddle about changing your beliefs or making your children kofrim. They want a safe comfortable life for their families with no one telling them how to think, what to eat, or when to travel, where everyone in the society gives equitable service. The few who are antagonistic because they are truly prejudiced are balanced by those among the Chareidi world who are the same.
If you really truly want to fight the Zionist regime, you can do two things. One, become a murderer, pick up arms and overthrow the “regime” you say you “must fight”. Good luck with that. You’ll get far, I’m sure.
Two, do what is necessary to convince other Israelis that you are right, justified, and holy, and they can be too. Figure out what you need to do to bring them to your way of thinking with love and brotherhood. Then get up from your shtender and do it. Otherwise, you are just complaining without doing anything to change your reality. I have no time for someone without the courage of their convictions.
Here are the realities to contend with. The Chareidi birthrate is dropping, even relative to the secular, which is growing. It’s share of the vote isn’t keeping up with its population growth, meaning people are making choices beyond what they are commanded to do by their manhigim. The number of those leaving the fold is growing. The number of those becoming frum has stagnated. The financial challenges are increasing. The access to alternative views whether through the internet or other means continues to grow. The response of forbidding the entire internet has failed miserably where there was an incredible opportunity to use it for kedushah. I fear for the future of the community of my youth. I’m not going to go into any more challenges but there are many. I suggest that these need to be confronted more imminently than some nebulous “Zionist regime”.
It starts with you.
As I said, I’m tired, and I worry also for the future of our fractured people. ALL of us. I wish you well in finding a struggle worth enduring, and an outcome that benefits Am Yisroel.
yichusdik, your “statistics” is wishful thinking in your longtime anti-Chareidi agenda that has no basis in reality. The number of chareidim leaving is at an all-time low, the number of new BTs is high, the Chareidi birthrate is still k’h very high while the secular rate is low (even though it is slightly higher than the historical lows the seculars reached a few decades ago) and the Chareidi financial state is currently better than it has ever been in the post-WWII era.
An the Chareidi populace still adheres to the holy words and commandments of their gedolim and manhigim as much as they have in the past.
Head, meet sand.
As I said, I’m tired. I’m not trying to change your mind, Joseph. Be who you are, I’m sure you’ll succeed in convincing many Jews to do as you do and be as you are with your judging favourably, your open tent flaps like avrohom avinu and your anivus like Moshe Rabeinu. Hatzlocho with that.
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