Working with guys.
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September 11, 2011 7:01 am at 7:01 am #599310
Ok, so I was working in an office, where I was the only single girl working there. there were frum married guys that tried chatting me up, Even though I was getting paid really well I decided it was not for a bas Yisrael and decided to quit the job. My boss was very upset and tried bribing me with a higher salary even though I was getting paid already very well. I really did feel bad that I was letting them down, but I really felt it was not for a bas yisroel. Now I’m left without a job. I don’t regret my decision, I only regret not getting a reference letter from them before quiting. It will be much harder now for me to start all over again. I’m looking for an office job, does anyone know of anything in the New York area? Thanks in advance!September 11, 2011 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #809119☕️coffee addictParticipant
look in the hamodia, yated, and jewish pressSeptember 11, 2011 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #809120am yisrael chaiParticipant
“I only regret not getting a reference letter from them”
You can still request one.September 11, 2011 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #809121TheGoqParticipant
Chatting isnt necessarily an intent to get too close to you, it may have been an attempt to make you comfortable and feel like part of the team, there is a single girl where i work who will never say hello to me i dont think tznius should override mentchlichkite.September 11, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #809122
its a slippery slope. if what they said made you feel uncomfortable you did the right thing.September 11, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #809123real-briskerMember
Why is it a problem to get a letter now?September 11, 2011 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #809124bein_hasdorimParticipant
I give you a bracha that HB”H should send you a great paying job in an ehrliche, safe environment. You should be proud of what you did, and the fact that you’re out of a job is only a Nisayon to see if you’re happy sticking to what is right even if you feel it in the pocket.
It is slightly similar to those holy yidden who refused to work on Shabbos. Their Mesiras Nefesh was ingrained into their children and future generations. May your resolve IY”H be inherited by your
children and future generations.September 11, 2011 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #809125gimpelstrasserMember
when a man asked Rabbi Meir’s wife “???? ??? ????” “which road to lod” she admonished him that he should of asked “???? ????” “which to Lod” so not to transgress “?? ???? ???? ?? ???” “do not talk a lot to a woman” make your own conclusions about the abovementioned workplace.September 12, 2011 11:05 am at 11:05 am #809127
Goq: I know. but theres chatting and there is CHATTING!!September 12, 2011 11:48 am at 11:48 am #809128
Bien Hasdorim: Amen! Thank-you.
Goq: Maybe she feels you are a little too friendly. Maybe if you say hello once to her in a business like fashion she will get the hint that it’s not overstepping boundaries to be mentchlech in a co-oporate setting it is ok to say a formal businesslike greeting.
Just don’t make her feel uncomfortable, she obviousely is not used to this type of thing.. and possibly may cause her to run! tread carefully if you wish to keep her in the firm or whatever it is, because she was not raised this way & doesn’t mean to be rude.September 12, 2011 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #809129Feif UnParticipant
bein_hasdorim: Regarding those who didn’t work on Shabbos in the early 1900’s, for the most part, it wasn’t ingrained in their children. In fact, most of the children did not stay frum.
R’ Moshe Feinstein said about this that the problem was, while the parents were moser nefesh to keep Shabbos, they kept saying S’iz shver tsu zayn a Yid – it’s difficult to be a Jew. Their children heard them say this, and wanted no part in it when they got older.September 12, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #809130Emunas ItechaMember
Geshmakke Mentch.. wow that is amazing. I was faced with a similar situation not long ago. Hashem gives us “feelings” for a reason. Obviously you are a very aidle, G-d fearing girl. Kol HaKavod! Hashem will open the door to an amazing job, in a good comfortable environment for you! Try talking it out with Hashem.. tell Him what you did, about your mesiras nefesh, and ask for a good job in the right environment. Good luck!September 12, 2011 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #809131
Contrary to what some would have us believe, workers in an office, particularly a professional office, require a certain degree of collegiality to be productive. A so called “professional atitude” isn’t professional at all. It is simply cold and vaguely offensive and it negatively impacts the business of the company. If Ms. Mentch finds such collegiality uncomfortable, perhaps she should avoid the working world.September 12, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #809132seeallsidesParticipant
Don’t take it as an offense to mentchlichkeit-An office environment is very risky for a single girl/boy-the fact that they are not raised with any interaction makes everything exaggerated, any slight jokes and normal laughing may be interpreted and then assumed to be a real relationship-when a lady passes a talmid chochom, and doesn’t smile and say hi, it’s not because she is rude or not a mentch-it’s out of respect for all the gedarim that are necessary.September 12, 2011 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #809133
Kudos for sticking to your convictions.
Unfortunately, expect your next job to have similar issues as well.September 12, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #809134ursula momishMember
Have you read “9:00 to 5:00”, on the halachos of tznius in the workplace? These things are not so pashut. Speaking as someone who has been in a similar situation, if you felt uncomfortable, you did right to get out.
(But there are people who could use a good-paying job, so did you tell anyone about this opportunity?)September 12, 2011 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #809135TumsMember
Unfortunately, expect your next job to have similar issues as well.
All jobs have this problem?September 12, 2011 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #809136
Since the mods would never (and should never) allow the horor stories of what has happened with overly “friendly” men in the workplace, I will just repeat “if what they said made you feel uncomfortable you did the right thing”
Never do something your intuition feels is wrong.September 12, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #809137NechomahParticipant
I think that repeated exposure with members of the opposite gender leads to a gradual breakdown of sensitivity to tznius. There are a number of reasons this happens I’m sure, some mentioned above, like “collegiality in the work place” and even just having to deal with the secretary of the boss or some such things. It’s a reality and there’s not much that can be done when men work together with women.
The yetzer hara comes on strong and tries to convince us to stay in that great paying job because there aren’t so many available, and “what’s the difference of talking to a few men – it’s no big deal”. I truly hope that you will be rewarded for your efforts not to succumb to this ploy by the y.h. and will quickly find a great paying job in an environment that will let you keep your sensitivities in place. Great job in Elul!!!September 12, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #809138
” not for a bas yisroel. “
So, let me see if I have the facts down.
You came to work in a modest, pleated skirt, sensible flats, business appropriate blouse, hair in a pony, and only a touch of makeup, and the “frum married men” were on your case like pack of wolves?
Or is it perhaps time for a reality check?
I have worked in a mixed office for years. The people that attract trouble are the ones that invite it.
At your next job (may you land one soon), try asking your Rebbetizn or Sem Madricha for fashion tips.
Chances are, that will give you the respect you seek.September 12, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #809139JUST.MEMember
I work in an office where there are a few woman working, they have their own interactions going on between them. The men don’t interact with them or party together which is the way it should be. When business is involved, we do talk. But that doesn’t mean that when they leave they shouldn’t say bye or when coming say good morning. The good morning / good evening is not directed at anyone specific but to the general air which is fine. In conclusion, I feel that over interaction can be limited but that doesn’t mean not saying hi or bye when coming and leaving. It makes the atmosphere a good one. And if i did understand you correct the interaction was “a little more” that just saying hi or bye or work related. I do know someone who left her job because of that and good for her. A person never losses anything from doing the right thing.
Regarding other work places, it is very tough to find the right atmosphere but they do exist (Baruch Hashem I am in such an office which is amazing and local)September 12, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #809140
Rikki2: Personal horror stories or hearsay horror stories? The fact is that millions of women (and thousands of frum women) work in offices everyday with dignity and safety. Saying “good morning” to your boss or coworkers and being pleasant in general will not get you or anyone else in trouble. No one is suggesting (CVS) that a women working in an office needs to go out for drinks with the guys after work, but a pleasent resonse to “how ’bout them Red Sox” doesn’t strike me as the first step on the road to degredation.September 12, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #809141
All jobs have this problem?
Expect that if you are in a “frum” workplace with many males, you will have some sort of issue. In a non Jewish workplace, you will be better off, as there are harrassment laws that people actually care about, as well as a more professional atmosphere/worker.September 12, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #809142adorableParticipant
you are one great person! I dont know many people who would have the guts to do what you did! Good job!!September 12, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #809143
Okay, here’s a hypothetical. Let’s say a single frum young man and an unmarried frum young lady are working in the same office. Their relationship is completely above board and their conversation has ben restricted to “Good morning” and work issues only. Now, as we know, nothing propinks like propinquity and the two young people begin to be attracted to each other. Should the boy:
A. Ask the girl out on a date?
B. Ask a shadchan or other third party to redt the shidduch?
C. Leave the firm?
D. Do nothing?
Should the girl:
A. Ask a shadchan or other third party to redt the shidduch?
B. Leave the firm?
C. Do nothing?September 12, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #809144
bpt, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that girls who dress a little too nicely for work will attract unwanted attention from men? Theoretically, that would make sense. But I believe some men are attracted to girls who dress very modestly (ponytail, no makeup…etc). Sometimes it’s not the dress, but behavior or personality. Maybe it’s because she’s a good worker. It can be anything. I don’t think it’s fair for a girl to purposely dress plainly just so she won’t attract unwanted attention. Men are equally responsible to watch how they behave, and not blame the girl because she happens to be attractive (in dress, behavior, or personality).September 12, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #809145
Raphael Kaufman: You definitely don’t have the sensitivity to deal with this issue in a kosher fashion!
BPT: Unfortunately you are on TARGET for many of the issues described, but not necessarily the writer here.
Geshmakee Mentch: If you live in new York, send your resume to PCS.
There are many kosher places to work.hatzlocha!!September 12, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #809146
Raphael Kaufman: Ask a shadchan & inform their boss. But we are not dealing here with two singles.September 12, 2011 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #809147
Queen Bee: The girls who are dressing to attract attention KNOW IT!! You can look very good and not attract attention, its all part of what Tznius is all about!! No one says that you have to walk around looking horrible. I deal with many different types of girls in my line of work. I have to tell you it doesn’t suprise me when I hear their are issues, because of the impression these girls make. It’s not just their way of dress, which needs a tikun, it’s how they walk and talk etc.September 12, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #809148TumsMember
bpt is correct that girls shouldn’t dress to be attractive, but is mistaken that that alone will keep the guys ay bay. It will help, but there will still be problems.September 12, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #809150
“behavior or personality. Maybe it’s because she’s a good worker.”
If this is the attention she was getting, I doubt she would have had an issue.
I’m willing to bet, she got the other kind of attention (real or imagined, as is sometimes the case)
My question was, WHY did she get that sort of attention?
Between work, home, schools, shuls and bungalows, I have seen many women of all types and levels of frumkeit.
The ones who adhere to tznius like they mean it rarely get hassled.
Its ones who work the system, and play the “guidelines” game that get the treatment.
As a rule, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.September 12, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #809151
a mamin, I agree one hundred percent. Those girls definitely attract attention, however, even those who don’t mean to can unknowingly attract attention. Just my opinion. We all have to be careful how we conduct ourselves, especially in this kind of environment.
bpt, I don’t think it’s right to assume things about the OP, whether she did something to attract attention. I say we drop it.September 12, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #809153therealmgamaMember
A relative of mine left after 1 day at a job where the men started calling her by her first name.September 12, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #809154bein_hasdorimParticipant
Feif Un; I am aware of that, what i wasn’t aware of was that EVERY yid who was moser nefesh was Krechtsting!
That is not true! The comments applied to those who complained.
Those that were happy to be Moser Nefesh for the sanctity of Shabbos, those people left behind a beautiful legacy.
Generations of true Torah jews.September 12, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #809155
It seems surprizing to me that anyone can accuse this girl of not dressing tzniusdik. It’s very unlikely that someone willing to loose their job for tznius issues would dress to attract attention.
Looks can atract on their own, and everyone knows that.
“Just because one feels himself (or herself) in danger doesn’t necessarily mean that one actually is in danger.”
Right. But unless you know for sure you don’t stick around to find out.September 12, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #809156
A relative of mine left after 1 day at a job where the men started calling her by her first name.
Boruch Hashem!September 12, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #809157bnj1977Participant
Perhaps I’m missing something here but how is chatting with guys in the YWN coffee room any better than talking to guys at work? In fact, from the little I’ve read, it seems the conversations (dare I say “relationships”) in the YWN coffee room are considerably more intimate than they would ever be in a work place. I don’t understand how someone so sensitive to tznius can be part of what goes on here.September 12, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #809158
yes youre missing something.
there is a vast difference in what the two types of relationships can lead to.
among many other differences.September 12, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #809159
in addition there have been times when the moderators have stepped in to end a “relationship” here when it had gotten, in their opinion, inappropriate.
there are not usually moderators in the workplace.September 12, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #809160
but certainly if you are not comfortable with the “relationships” you observe here, and you are sensitive to this, you probably should discontinue your participation here.September 12, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #809161MDGParticipant
There is a friendliness here, but there is anonymity. So flirt as you may, but you are really not sure with whom you are speaking. You don’t know what they look like. You really can’t be sure of their gender or age.September 13, 2011 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #809162
Mod-80, re: no mods in the workplace, maybe you can create a slot for yourself.September 13, 2011 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #809163mddMember
Raphael Kaufman, the customs and attitudes of non-Jewish America do not override the gidrei Tznius. Millions of women work in offices, and nothing happens? We know what’s going on by those asher einam-me’Bnei(Bnos) Yisroel heim!
Therealmgama, on the other hand, there is no issur of calling a woman by her first name, and that reaction was extreme.September 13, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #809164
“I don’t think it’s right to assume things about the OP, .. I say we drop it. “
Sorry, QB, I was not the one who threw the first punch. The OP said ” frum married guys .. tried chatting me up ” and that puts me and all the other “frum married guys” on the witness stand. So until we determine just how innocent Ms. OP was, I think the case is still open to discussion.
I travel to and from Manhattan by train, and see all sorts of Am Yisroel girls / women. Most of them dress and act in a manner befitting a bas Yisroel.
There are a few though that have a tug-of-war with their hemline (and seem to be losing). This, mind you, by girls davening with a bren. So I ask you, is a woman like that faultless?
True, we do not know what the OP comes to work like. But for her to launch a generalization about “frum married men” is also uncalled for.
OK, now I’m ready to drop it.September 13, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #809165
“THERE ARE A FEW THOUGH THAT HAVE A TUG OF WAR WITH THEIR HEMLINE” Isn’t this enough of a reason for us to work on it??? Wake up women smell the coffee!!!September 13, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #809166
” Isn’t this enough of a reason for us to work on it??? “
Wow, re-typed in all caps? I didn’t think it was that out of control. To be honest, 99% percent of the tribe is doing a fine job of compliance. Its the 1% that makes the newsSeptember 13, 2011 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #809167September 13, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #809168
MDD, No one is talking about tznius per se. If dealing with normal office activities and conversation violates your sense tznius, then, by all means, remove yourself from that environment. Granted, I don’t know the specific nature of the interplay and conversation in Ms. Mentch’s office. There very well may have been inappropriate advances made, but my sense is that she felt threatened by what most would consider innocuous office pleasantries.
In the “goyishe veldt” there are very strict laws and work rules against harrassment. Don’t believe me? I worked in an office where a fellow was written up and officially admonished for telling a female co-worker, My, you look nice this morning.” So, yes, I stand by my statement that “…millions of women (and thousands of frum women) work in offices everyday with dignity and safety.”
The ideal for all Bitei Yisroel is ” eshtecha k’gefen piryah b’yarkesei beisechah”, but the sad fact is that many Bitei Yisroel have to join the work force to suplement family income or, R”L, as primary bread winners. To effectively navigate the working world women have to learn to differentiate between real threats to halachic propriety and immaginary ones.September 13, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #809169Boro Park MenschParticipant
Time to revisit the issue.
OP, a concerned young member of our kehilla, comes to this website looking for advice. She was upset because she left her job since “there were frum married guys that tried chatting me up.”
BPT, is chagrined at this story. But not because of the “frum married guys” acting inappropriately. Rather, BPT believes that our young poster is somehow responsible for the bad conduct, perhaps somehow having provoked it.
That sound right, so far?
So then, a few questions for BPT:
Do you blame victims in general or only frum girls?
What if “frum, married guys” work in an office with shiksas who are not obliged to follow the Jewish laws of dress? Can they “chat them up?”
Does the conduct of the victim excuse the conduct of men? What does your rav say? I presume he doesn’t say that if a frum single girl in your office doesn’t dress properly you are free to “chat her up” now does he?
EditedSeptember 13, 2011 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #809170
No one is saying the males are totally innocent either! Though we as women have an “achrayis” to dress ( And Act) properly!
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