January 23, 2011 4:18 am at 4:18 am #594402alwayswonderingParticipant
i have found that guys in yeshiva who are planning on making some form of harbatzus torah/judaism their career are expected/encouraged to get a back-up degree in case it doesn’t work out. is that true for other professions? do lawyers also get social work degrees? why don’t we encourage the yeshiva guys more?January 23, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #806747chayav inish livisumayParticipant
if lawyers and doctors and every other proffesional doesnt have a back up why do marbeitzei torah need a backup with some siyata dishmaya they’ll be fine. i know marbeitzie torah that had no backup and when the time came they managed to get a good job without a problem. hashem helpsJanuary 23, 2011 5:56 am at 5:56 am #806748mexipalParticipant
usually when somebody selects a career choice its because they feel they are reasonably good at that profession and that it could make them a parnassa. therefore they dont need a backup plan.On the other hand, a profession of harbatzas torah is chosen by someone devoted to hashem, his torah, and klal yisrael. it might not make a decent parnassa. therefore a backup plan is a good ideaJanuary 23, 2011 6:31 am at 6:31 am #806749charliehallParticipant
In the modern orthodox world, almost all rabbis have undergraduate degrees and many have masters degrees or doctorates, not as a “back up” but because it makes them better rabbis. Some of the more common choices of fields include Jewish history, Jewish philosophy, academic bible or talmud, education, and psychology.January 23, 2011 6:32 am at 6:32 am #806750Brooklyn YentaParticipant
and i know marbitzei torah that can barely put food on the table.January 23, 2011 9:11 am at 9:11 am #806751
Some people become lawyers because their father is a lawyer, and made them always think that they must become a lawyer. Those lawyers would be wise to get a back up degree.January 23, 2011 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #806752
Wheres your emunah and bitachon?January 23, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #806753twistedParticipant
And then there is the issue of ‘orrur oseh meleches hashem remi’a’ which a lawyer doesn’t contend with. If one is pushed or otherwise miscast into a kl’e kodesh, and finds that he isn’t a “natural”, or not a people person, he must get out. My hunch tells me it happens more often than never.January 23, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #806754LAerMember
real-brisker, yes, emunah & bitachon are important. So are hishtadlus and common sense. Most “yeshiva guys” should not depend on their current or future “career” in yeshiva or chinuch, as there are hundreds of other guys just like them, all hoping for the coveted spot of a Torah career that actually pays a decent amount (rare, and becoming rarer, in my opinion). It’s always good to have a backup plan, degree or no degree. Find out what your strengths are and know what you can do should your #1 choice not work out.January 23, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #806755HomeownerMember
alwayswondering, Law school is a graduate program and in most cases those entering it already have an undergraduate degree. (The exceptions I was thinking of were when a university has a joint BA-JD program although I don’t know if there are any of those left.)January 23, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #806756
LAer – We are talking about where one is currently settled with however he is being supported. Thus being emunah and betachon says there is no need to worry about the future. and no need to do EXTRA hishtadlos. One can have emunah and bitachon that hashem will continue giving him parnasha the same way hes getting now.January 23, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #806757
charliehall: Based on learning with many college educated rabbis, I would argue that academic bible and talmud do more for the laity than the rabbis, but that’s just my personal opinion. Then again I am not a rabbi and have never taken an academic bible or talmud course.
real-brisker: and if he’s barely surviving now, shouldn’t he have a backup plan for ba’u mayim ad nafesh?
Homeowner: Looking?January 23, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #806758
Itchesrulik – I dont understand you by saying “bearly surviving” Is he managing from day to day – Yes or no, what does barely mean? And for whatever you mean by bearly, than he can continue his bearlyness.January 23, 2011 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #806759
Speaking of Bearly, there is a bar in Minnesota which is roasting a bear today in support of Green Bay.January 23, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #806760
No, he cannot continue his “bearlyness.” The avoda of a ben Torah is tikkun hamiddos and he cannot remain a vilde chaya his whole life!! 😛January 23, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #806762
lol! you agree?January 23, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #806764HomeownerMember
Looking for what?
–Homeowner, BA, JDJanuary 23, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #806765
real-brisker: Three words for you: four kids later.
Homeowner: touche.January 23, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #806766
itche – huh?January 24, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #806767
IOW, no. He cannot continue his “bearlyness” as his family continues to grow and the money just isn’t there.January 24, 2011 6:07 am at 6:07 am #806768truth be toldMember
There are those who have gone into harbotzas Torah, not gotten paid said dues.. and decided to find another job on the side which helps people. True, it may be that if their bitochon was strong enough they wouldn’t need another job. One must still deal with the level they’re on.January 24, 2011 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #806769BowwowParticipant
“””””True, it may be that if their bitochon was strong enough they wouldn’t need another job. One must still deal with the level they’re on”””””
Truth be told…..How can you make this statement???
I don’t generally agree that everyone should learn in kollel or stay in the “Kodesh” field, but do you seriously believe that those who should be in kollel and rebeim are lacking bitochon and that is why they need a second job? When someone becomes a mechanech they are very well aware that in today’s times yeshiva’s are unfortunately prone to falling behind on payroll. Is not taking a second job or having other sources of income a sign of bitachon, or shor sightedness.
Reminds me of a great Mashul (don’t remember where i heard it from)… A town was flooding and all of the residents were told to evacuate. One man decided to stay, saying Hashem will save me. As the flooding continued a rescue team in a boat came to evacuate him and again he answered Hashem will save me. The town was completely flooded and now he was on the roof of his house when a helicopter flew overhead to rescue him but again he refused saying Hashem will save him. The town became completely overun and the man died. When he came to shomayim he asked Hashem “I don’t understand, I was a good person, I davened every day, i gave tzedaka and learned and put complete faith in you how could you not save me in my time of need?” Hashem answered him “Of course you deserved saving.. first i sent an evacuation warning, then a boat, and finally a helicopter but you refused to put in your effort so you could not be saved”
If an opportunity is placed before you think twice before turning it down..September 7, 2011 3:22 am at 3:22 am #806770RevengeoftheShasMember
The Bachelors degree should not take more than a year. It’s the Masters that may take a few shots but extra degrees can’t hurt.
Check out YeshivaDegree . comSeptember 7, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #806771yungerman1Participant
chayav inish livisumay- Simply put the average salary for a physician and attorney is double or triple what the average Rebbi makes. Not to say that there arent professionals with out jobs, but lets focus on the average. The average Rebbe also has more children. So even if they find a job, it will most likely not cover there expenses.
On a Rebbe’s salary, after taxes, mortgage, insurance, tuition, transportation etc… there is almost nothing left for food, clothing and any extras.
I second what Bowwow said- valid hishtadlus needs to be made, and one shouldnt say that he will be different than the trend and be self sustained on one Rebbe salary
real-brisker- Did you know that many of the Tannoim, Amoraim, Rishonim etc.. had other professions?September 7, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #806772HealthParticipant
charliehall -“In the modern orthodox world, almost all rabbis have undergraduate degrees and many have masters degrees or doctorates, not as a “back up” but because it makes them better rabbis.”
This is one thing I never was able to understand about YU -How does college help you become a better Rabbi? Learning as much Torah possible -Yea, but not college courses.
We obviously have fundamental differences on what a Rabbi should look like!September 7, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #806773
not as a “back up” but because it makes them better rabbis.”
agreed but i would modify that to “makes them better modern orthodox rabbis”.September 7, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #806774
The reason many rabbis have degrees is not as a backup but because today many rabbis are unnoficially expected to fill other roles like a Marriage counselor Psychologist and moreSeptember 7, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #806775RSRHMember
Health: Learning as much Torah as possible undoubtably makes you a better rabbi, but that doesn’t mean having a broader knowledge of related matters does not. Perhaps if your a maggid shiur or stam a “talmid chacham” you have little need for formal advanced secular education, but a Rav, a rabbi does. A rav must paskin shailos, and so must understand the economic, psychological, political, and other issues that his congregants are dealing with and which relate to reaching a good psak. A rav must be able to lead his kehilla, not just give a drasha on chumash on shabbos morning and a daf yomi during the week. Practical, real world work requires practical, real-world knowledge, and if you want to do it right, you learn from the experts and get yourself certified to be sure you really understand the things you claim to know.September 7, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #806776
if you want to do it right, you learn from the experts
like the experts in biology who deny The Creator, and give you the facts as to how blind chance created everything.
like the experts in psychology (whose basic tenet is to rid oneself of shame and guilt),who understand the workings of the human soul (if they at least dont deny its existence) so much better than Talmidei Chochomin.
and the economic and political experts who again ascribe all their conclusions to chance and “historical principles” and deny there is a Boreh who controls and conducts the events of the world
yes certainly it is critical for a Rabbi to learn this “knowledge” in order deal with the problems of their congregants. the depths of the wisdom of the Torah just cannot compare.
and of course Poskim cannot consult with technologic experts. their minds are too dull to understand what they are saying unless the Poskim first exposed themselves to the tumah of the colleges beforehand.September 7, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #806778
How about stuff like Public Speaking, Its very important to know how to speak in front of people.
A Sharp tounge is well known among many, but if you are a Pulpit rabbi having a sharp tounge is not really a good idea as the damage may be greater than the good. A proper psychological training will train a rabbi not to give the damaging sharp tounge and proper speaking to such a personSeptember 7, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #806779
yes if you are a pulpit rabbi who has poor Middos and doesnt have patience or know how to control his anger, training by those who study “psychology” based on the sound principles of freud and skinner et al, will be so much better than learning from Mussar Seforim and Tzaddikim how to improve his MiddosSeptember 7, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #806781
but i dont know what were arguing about.
i agree with those who say that a college education will make a modern orthodox rabbi a better modern orthodox rabbi.
you are right.September 7, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #806782
Its not about Middos
You need to know how to talk to people, you catch alot more flies with honey than vinegar.
People talk their rabbis like psychologists and Rabbis need to know how to handle it. Its not only about Halacha.
What does a rabbi do if someone comes to them and says they dont love their spouse anymore. You really need to know how to handle this properlySeptember 7, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #806783
yes as i said you can stop arguing now
i fully agree a modern orthodox rabbi needs a course in psychology to know how to deal with the problems of his congregants, psychological training is just the ticket. having proper Middos is nice but cant compare to a certified degree in psychology
you are rightSeptember 7, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #806784
Moderator-80…Why do you say only MO rabbis need courses in Psycology etc. to deal with their congregants? Don’t people from Haredi backgrounds need their Rabbi to help them with their problems as well?
I don’t understand why it’s good for one group and not the other??September 7, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #806785
i understand why you dont understand.September 7, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #806786September 7, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #806787adorableParticipant
mike- i also understand why you dont understand. you are only seeing one side of the coin.September 7, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #806788
okay my last word on the subject
i cant explain it to you
first you have to understand what a Rabbi is and what psychology isSeptember 7, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #806789oomisParticipant
Everyone and his second cousin cannot be a mechanech, so a backup plan is ALWAYS a great idea. And I would say the same thing to a lawyer, if there truly is a glut of lawyers without jobs.September 7, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #806790
And I would say the same thing to a lawyer, if there truly is a glut of lawyers without jobs.
There are 45k lawyers graduating every year. There are 30k job openings every year.September 7, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #806791
People talk their rabbis like psychologists and Rabbis need to know how to handle it.
Nothing like a rabbi who thinks he’s a psychologist.September 7, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #806792
adorable…Instead of saying you understand why I don’t understand, can you please explain it to me?September 7, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #806793HealthParticipant
RSRH -“A rav must paskin shailos, and so must understand the economic, psychological, political, and other issues that his congregants are dealing with and which relate to reaching a good psak. A rav must be able to lead his kehilla, not just give a drasha on chumash on shabbos morning and a daf yomi during the week. Practical, real world work requires practical, real-world knowledge, and if you want to do it right, you learn from the experts and get yourself certified to be sure you really understand the things you claim to know.”
All the Rabonim I know or at least most, get whatever they need to Pasken or do other things without going to college. Is college the only place to acquire knowledge? For example -A Rov is asked to intervene with Sholom Bayis. He tries, but is unsuccessful. Most Rabbonim I know, at that point, will refer to professional help -like a marriage counselor with a degree. And a lot of times they are successful, even without referrals! So again, what does a Rabbi need a college degree for??!?!?September 7, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #806794
The other important skill rabbis need is public speaking.
I have heard rav’s with the Torah but not the ability to protray that torah to an audience.
I realize many Charedim dont really care how the Godol speaks and is just happy to be there, but it is really important to know how to speak in front of people.
I have heard Gedolim speak and they speak softly in monotone and many times in Yiddish (To an audience that likely speaks english) and they also speak in code and it takes someone to explain to you what they really mean.
Alot more can be protrayed if a speaker speaks in differnt tones, speaking clear and consice english (assuming a mostly english speaking crowd) and let everyone understand what they are saying.September 7, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #806795yungerman1Participant
mikehall12382- What Mod 80 is likely saying is twofold. Firstly we firmly believe that all knowledge is in the Torah. Learning full time and in depth will give someone knowledge in all areas, not just in “Talmudic studies”. This knowledge is pure, unadulterated truth.
An MO Rabbi who might not spend most of the day learning Gemora, Rishonim/Achronim and is not familiar with all 4 parts of Shulchan Aruch, will need to obtain this knowledge from other sources to be successful. This knowledge is often tainted and biased and may reflect itself when he gives advice. There is a big problem with a Rabbi trying to help you using Freudian psychology and not the Ramchal, Rabbeinu Yonah, Rambam or Kuzari.September 7, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #806796
yungerman1…Thank You for your explanation.
So, to some it up most MO Rabbis are not familiar with all parts of the Shulchan Aruch, thus must rely on what he learnt in secular studies to give advise and guide his congregants…
Thank you again,l i wasn’t aware that this is how MO Rabbis operate.September 7, 2011 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #806797oomisParticipant
There are 45k lawyers graduating every year. There are 30k job openings every year. “
So I would advise those graduates to have a backup plan. They still need to put food on the table.
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