August 12, 2008 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #588009
I recently joined this forum, and I am wondering why it is that most of the people that post here cannot put together a proper sentence.
The spelling is awful and the grammar is so atrocious, that it often makes it difficult to follow what the writer is trying to say.
people that post here?August 13, 2008 12:11 am at 12:11 am #665826
I dont think their is anything wrong with most peoples writing here on this forum.
if your looking to critisise you can be able to do it I’m sure because most people do not always have a perfect writing but I don’t think its much worse then the genrel population porportionatly.
By the way, your comma placement is dead wrong. People who live in glass houses …August 13, 2008 9:46 am at 9:46 am #665827
I hope Burich’s reply was intended to be sarcastic, with intentional mistakes in it. If not, I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry.
As for me, English isn’t my native language. In fact, I have never been in any English-speaking country.August 13, 2008 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #665828
burich, you don’t have to purposely make all those mistakes in your post. It just makes you look bad.August 13, 2008 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #665829
burich, thanks for providing an excellent example of what I am referring to.
“I don’t think their is anything wrong…”
their is spelled there.
“critisise” is spelled criticise.
“if your looking to critisise…”
should be…if you’re looking to criticise..
“porportionatly” I assume you mean proportionately
And yes, it IS worse than the general population. That is why I posted
this in the first place.
So tell me, where is my comma placement wrong? If it is I would like to know, as I am always open to constructive criticism.August 13, 2008 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #665830
The comma after “atrocious” is debatable.August 13, 2008 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #665831
the comma after “forum” is also superfluous. Remember, NEVER a comma before “and”.August 14, 2008 1:28 am at 1:28 am #665833
Thank you r.o.b………..August 14, 2008 4:28 am at 4:28 am #665834
before attacking me, youre comma rule for “beofore and is not correct:
One of the questions we are asked frequently is whether a comma should go before the conjunction “and” in a series of three or more items. The answer is yes. Although grammar gurus abandoned that comma rule for a while in the twentieth century, we have since realized that using the serial comma (as it is called) is a good idea for two reasons:
First, it prevents misreading. Consider this sentence, for example:
The menu for the class picnic will feature green beans, stewed apples, macaroni and cheese and okra and tomatoes.
Without the serial comma, the series items are difficult to see. Here is the same sentence with the serial comma added:
The menu for the class picnic will feature green beans, stewed apples, macaroni and cheese, and okra and tomatoes.
With the serial comma, the reader can tell easily that the class ate four different dishes, not five or six, as may have been construed without that last comma.
Mrs. Jones left all her money to her three children: Huey, Dewey and Louie.
Without the serial comma, the sentence does not clearly indicate that the three children are to be given equal shares of the inheritance. Quite possibly (especially if Huey were a jerk), Huey would get half the money, and Dewey and Louie would have to split the other half.August 14, 2008 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #665835
Mariner, I am really impressed! I apologize for making that blanket statement that “most” of the people that post here can’t write properly. Actually, most people CAN indeed.August 14, 2008 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #665836
It’s true that the percentage of yeshiva guys with poor langauge skills is annoying and I share that anoyance. However, I disagree with your assertion that it is worse than that of the general population. Perhaps you work in the professional world and are accustomed to interacting with a more educated segment of the population. However, the idea that yeshiva guys on the whole have worse langauge skills than the rest of society is absurd. When was the last time you tried to communicate effectively with a customer “service” representative from a utility or from a municipality? Sometimes it’s enough to make you want to bang your head against the wall. And these are people with steady jobs
Also…you probably realize (and if you don’t, you should) that, for better or worse, web forums have an unoffical protocol that allows for more typos and misellings so as not to bother particpants with double checking everthing they type.
Kol Tuv.August 14, 2008 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #665837
Is this a free course?!(lol)August 14, 2008 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #665838
mariner!! WOW !!!! (how much time did it take you?)August 14, 2008 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #665839
rabbi, it took mariner as long as it takes to hit CTRL-C (copy) from getitwriteonline.com and CTRL-V (paste) to TheYeshivaWorld.com.August 14, 2008 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #665840
Mariner – although what you wrote is correct, that rule does not apply to the sentence in question.
“I recently joined this forum, and I am wondering why it is that most of the people that post here cannot put together a proper sentence.”
Contending that the coordinating conjunction is adequate separation, some writers will leave out the comma in a sentence with short, balanced independent clauses. If there is ever any doubt, however, use the comma, as it is ALWAYS correct in this situation. So, while the comma does belong there, it’s not because it’s in a series of three or more items, but because each line on either side of the comma can stand on its own as a full sentence.
And Zishe, while “The comma after “atrocious” may be debatable”, it certainly is not “dead wrong”.August 14, 2008 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #665841
First of all, Yanky55’s use of the comma before “and” was not covered by the “serial comma” rule.
Second of all, Mariner merely quoted http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/021201.htm. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but a citation would have been nice.
My point was, though, that almost nobody has consistently perfect grammar. If you’re going to criticize (yes, “criticise” is how it’s spelled in England), however, you’d better be sure your own grammar is up to par.August 14, 2008 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #665842
To TVT: You make a good point and I stand corrected. Mikol milamdai hiskalti….August 14, 2008 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #665843
Ok, before I get any more accolades, that info is copied off a site:
Which quotes The Texas Law Review Manual on Usage and Style, which is how I found it, since I have used that in searches before. A teacher once told us about that manual to look up proper usages of grammatical punctuation.
And about spelling, typing on a computer is not like writing with the pen. With the pen your hand eye coordination works very differently then when typing. when writing, the brain focuses on the parts of your brain that associates word patterns to write, where typing does not, your mind spits out words, and your mind also remembers where keys on the keyboard are, and connects the to, more like art. hence sometime the word the is spelled teh, and is spelled adn, because these words and the fingers used and their placement on he keyboard tend to trick or confuse the brain, and sometimes gets typed wrong. An interesting scientific study was done recently, where they found that typed words, as long as the first and last letters were correct, the center of the word can be jumbled, and it will still be readable. again, that really only explains slight misspellings, but major ones I do agree, one should if need be, cut and paste into word, spell check there, and then post, if even to just not look foolish.August 14, 2008 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #665845
mariner, Perhaps “Huey” was a bachur (firstborn) and indeed the intent was to give him his entitled double-portion.August 14, 2008 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #665846
rabbi yanky, google the following sentence and look at the first result:
One of the questions we are asked frequently is whether a comma should go before the conjunction “and” in a series of three or more items.August 14, 2008 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #665847
Native Israeli and Rabbiofberlin: becareful with your comments. It appears that we are dealing with a Mariner the lawyer: he will start charging by the hour for these lessons.
in addition, agree with tvt regarding posting protocol.August 14, 2008 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #665848
Yanky55 has it right. It is not necessarily yeshiva guys, it is a problem with many people on this site, men and women. It is obvious that all of us on YWN are using words and only words to express ourselves. If someone misuses or in many cases misspells (accept is not except)their words, their message is not understood properly and frankly, that person comes across as a boor or worse. One shudders at the thought of what would be if rabbonim misused or misspelled their words. So let’s be a little more careful out there.August 15, 2008 3:20 am at 3:20 am #665849
First of all, I can’t believe so many of you actually googled mariner’s post to see where he got it from. Seriously..
But more importantly, mariner, I really hope you were joking when you wrote that when speaking, it is ok to say “me and Moshe”. Most people who have any command of the English language say “Moshe and I”. Your third grade teacher is in good company.August 15, 2008 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #665850
Thanks. I appreciate the candor. Good Shabbos.August 15, 2008 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #665851
Blue Shirt: Thanks for the blast from the past.August 15, 2008 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #665852
“Remember, NEVER a comma before “and”. “
*Never* say never (especially in capital letters).
Words such as NOT, AND, OR and XOR are logical operators. 🙂
The WolfAugust 17, 2008 3:08 am at 3:08 am #665853
As a frum female English teacher, I have quite an opinion on this discussion. Firstly, however, I would like to settle this comma debate. In general, punctuation acts as the proverbial traffic sign in our writing. It tells us when to slow down, take heed, and stop. It clarifies the writer’s intentions and enables the reader to follow the flow of words as they build sentences and ideas.
The comma serves many purposes, one of which is to distinguish objects in a list. The second comma in a serial or list (otherwise known as the Oxford comma) is a matter of taste and style. When it clarifies a point, it enhances the sentence. Take, for example, the fourth sentence in the paragraph above: “It tells us when to slow down, take heed, and stop.” The second comma is quite appropriate here as we find ourselves slowly coming to a final stop. Without that second comma, the sentence once again picks up speed after first slowing down, muddling the final two instructions into one.
Here, the second comma certainly clarifies my intentions.
Commas before “and” are certainly necessary when the conjunction is joining two independent clauses. (An independent clause contains both a subject and a verb.) When the conjunction joins an independent clause and a dependent clause (and clause without a subject), the comma is incorrect. This is a hard rule and not just a matter of style. (Notice there no comma in that sentence as “not just a matter…” is a dependent clause.)
About the comma before “that,” (Please note: ALL commas and periods are placed INSIDE the quotation marks.) it is not necessary because “that” is a subordinating conjunction.
If you have any other English questions, I would be happy to assist.August 17, 2008 3:18 am at 3:18 am #665854
In one succinct sentenct, I would like to say something about the main issue at hand. I find it quite appalling and downright embarrassing that young men and women cannot formulate sentences properly.August 17, 2008 3:47 am at 3:47 am #665855
I would like to add one more comment. It is absolutely incorrect to say “Me and Moshe.” The proper usage is “Moshe and I,” whether spoken or written.August 18, 2008 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #665857
english teacher, you are not correct. there are many linguists and grammarians who do not agree, and say that the written english rules of grammar do not apply to the spoken alnguage, and many seem say that spoken english have its own set of rules, but most agree that the written rule and the spoken rules are not the same, and the main example they tend to bring is the one i brought, of the usage of me and i. (there are grammarians that do agree, but not all.) i was not saying that in my original post that one should use me and yenim , and not use yenim and i, i was merely pointing out that a message board follows speech patterns, and not writting patterns, due to its nature as conversive english. (again not all grammarians agree, but then again, grammarians change the rules as times change, and usage changes.)August 18, 2008 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #665858
to english teacher …when ever you feel that you will feel embarrassed, hide under the table, or cover your face so nobody sees you turn red…excuse the comma before the word ‘or’ , we had an extra comma on hand didt know what too do wit itAugust 18, 2008 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #665859
to english teacher …when ever you feel that you will feel embarrassed, hide under the table, or cover your face so nobody sees you turn red…excuse the comma before the word ‘or’ , we had an extra comma on hand didt know what too do wit itAugust 18, 2008 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #665861
to english teacher , by the way we are not ‘young men’ we are probably old enough to be your father.August 18, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #665862
to english teacher.. of what relevance is your ‘frumkeit’ important to this discussion?August 18, 2008 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #665863
jent1150, there is an amusing saying that you may enjoy, and it goes something like this: “For every necessary comma ommitted, there is one superfluous comma added.” Ditto for apostrophes.November 3, 2009 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #665864
I actually wanted to start thread on grammar, so I was thrilled to find one had been started for me.
I am wondering why it is that most of the people that post here cannot put together a proper sentence.
people that post here
Nobody seemed to notice the mod’s comment. He (she?) got it. Should have have been:
I am wondering why it is that most of the people WHO post here cannot put together a proper sentence.
As a frum female English teacher
“For every necessary comma ommitted, there is one superfluous comma added.” Ditto for apostrophes.
And there’s the necessary comma that was omitted. (Notice the use of “that” when referring to a thing, as opposed to “who” when referring to a person.)
Should have been:
As a frum, female English teacher . . . (Two or more adjectives in a row need commas separating them.)
Thank you to Yanky55 for starting this thread.November 3, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #665865
haifagirl, it is nice of you to start something to teach us how to write, but you have to know some people that post here speak other languagues and we post in englsh, being english our second languague and please sometimes people make fun of the way I speak or write or say something and my answer to them is this: Try to say it in Spanish please..By the way people should learn Geography too.November 3, 2009 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #665866
english teacher – you are my hero
jent1150 – you would be fortunate if your children were educated by english teacherNovember 3, 2009 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #665867
I can recommend the book, “Eats, Shoots and Leaves” by Lynne Truss, “The Zero-Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.” She has written a serious, yet light-hearted review of the simple rules of pronunciation, without being a scold.
She also provides several pages of large stick-on commas, question marks and apostrophes for correcting signs in public places.
Haifagirl, I went to graduate school in an engineering discipline, and was also astonished at the number of fellow students who couldn’t write clearly. How do you make your thoughts known to others?
The title of the book comes from a joke: A panda walks into a cafe, orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun fires two shots,
“Why?” asks the waiter. The panda produces a poorly-punctuated wildlife manual and gives it to the waiter.
“I’m a panda,” he says at the door, “Look it up.”
The waiter turns to the entry, and there’s an explanation.
“Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.”November 3, 2009 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #665868
Can punctuation change your life, or the world?
her book is dedicated “To the memory of the striking Bolshevik printers of St. Petersburg who, in 1905, demanded to be paid the same rate for punctuation marks as for letters, and thereby directly precipitated the first Russian Revolution.”November 3, 2009 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #665869
ronrsr: Where did you get the stick-on punctuation? My copy didn’t come with it.November 3, 2009 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #665870
the kit is on the first four and last four pages of the book. Labeled: Punctuation Repair Kit. It also has little panda stickers that say, “The Panda says No!”
I have the trade paperback published in 2006.November 3, 2009 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #665871
Oh. I bought the hardcover earlier. I guess I should have waited!November 3, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #665872
I would send you mine, but I do use it. I get out the ladder every night and correct signs on stores and in public places.November 3, 2009 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #665873
Back in the olden days (when I was a teenager), long before that book came out, I used to carry a pen with me and correct signs in stores.November 3, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #665874
How dare you single out yeshivah guys in stating that they can not write.
How about bais yaakov girls who cannot write? Do you really think
it is only the boys in Yeshiva? I’m making a MACHO’H right here!November 3, 2009 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #665875
I Thank the Choshuveh Mods for doing their work bizri’zus. 🙂
“Thank” should be “thank”.
“Mods” should be “Moderators” (out of respect). 😉
You’re welcome.November 3, 2009 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #665876
The “T” was capitalized to compensate for the abbreviation of the word Moderators.
Also to poke some fun at the orignal poster and its Tone, i mean tone.November 3, 2009 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #665877
evreewun on this fourim rites so good wether they lernt hou in kallidj in hi skewl or in a gurls bais yakov it duzint madder i purrfiktly no what awl riters are try in to riteNovember 3, 2009 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #665878
“How dare you single out yeshivah guys in stating that they can not write.”
I believe it is Rav Gifter Z’l who said, “bachurim are illiterate in three languages, Lashon Kodesh, Yiddish and English”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.