Yom Hashoah, any thoughts?

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  • #608901

    BYbychoice
    Member

    So today is Yom Hashoah,the day the world remembers what was inflicted upon the Jews a few decades ago, how we where murdered in the millions, how we where treated worse then animals,how we went throught so much only to keep our sense of who we are and rebuild ourselves again. Considering Tisha Baav is in the summer, does anyone else think that schools should take notice of today and take the time to discuess with students a bit about the Holecaust,or what the world is rememebring? Many frum students go throught their school life without going into the topic or learning about it,anyone else think that schools should rethink this???? anyone??

    #944568

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. It is not for the Israeli government to attempt to create religious holidays, especially one celebrated by political speeches. If they wanted to observe a holocaust memorial day, they should do so by fasting and learning Torah.

    2. Jews have a traditional “memorial day”, which is Tisha B’Av, which we observe in a traditional manner. We have never added memorial days for tragedies that affected only a portion of Klal Yisrael (not for the destruction of most European Jews in the 20th century, not the destruction of the Southeast European Jews in the 17th, not the destruction of Spanish Jews in the 16th, not the destructtion of west European Jews in the 12th).

    3. Frum Jewish kids are extremely aware oh the holocaust and have it driven into them in excess. Most are unaware of such aspects as opposition of secular Jews to rescue efforts, or how many goyim actively opposed the Nazis. While secular Jews use the holocuast as an “identity raising” exercise, frum Jews probably have an excess of identity to begin with.

    #944569

    abiecab
    Participant

    This is a secular day that we don’t recognize. The only special day we specifically mark the holocaust is Tisha B’Av. Numerous gedolim have written special Kinos we recite on Tisha B’Ave for the holocaust. (The Bobover Rebbe, Rav Shimon Schwab and others.)

    #944570

    BYbychoice
    Member

    akuperma- im not chas veshalom saying to make a new yom tov,or holdiday or anythinglike that, its not just the israeli goverment, America also does it,the united states holecaust meuseum makes it known to.

    and frum kids are not aware and definetly not extremely! i have spoken to a number of kids in hight school saying they have never read any Holecaust book,or talked about it in school. Secular Jews feel connected when they talk about the Holecuast that, they feel they are important as they are as our brothers and sisters, and i think our children have a right to discuss what happend and learn about it,because if not when they are young,then when?

    #944571

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The idea that “We have never added memorial days for tragedies that affected only a portion of Klal Yisrael” Is nonsense. 20 sivan being but one example (though it is not widely commemorated today, some siddurim still have selichos (!) for 20 Sivan printed in them.

    The real reason the charedi world doesnt commemorate yom hashoah is because it was instituted from the get go as a bridge to yom haatzmaut it is designed to serve as a contrast between the galut vs geulah. This obviously did not and does not sit well with the Charedi velt.

    The second reason is that the day is not just a day to serve as a memorial to the victims. It also serves to glorify the armed resistors. The full name of the day is “Yom HaZikaron laShoah ve-laG’vurah” The chardei world by and large did not participate in armed resistance and thus felt somwhat excluded and even slighted by the notion.

    #944572

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why is this day different from all other days?

    Why in the world did they pick a day in Nissan, when we don’t fast or say Tachnun, to commemorate a tragedy — and in a non-Jewish manner of course?

    There were Taaneisim for tragedies in past, as in the 20th of Sivan, but not for all. Perhaps the Spanish expullsion did not get a day because there was no unified Spanish community to organize it. Moreover, the survivers didn’t need any reminders that they were away from their birthplace and downtrodden, hungry, robbed and weary.

    After the holocaust there wasn’t a unified She’eiris Hapleita community and people are affected by it till this day.

    #944573

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    They Picked this day because It has something to do with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising which began on April 19, 1942

    I think the Hebrew Date for that day is not available so they did it the week before

    #944574

    midwesterner
    Participant

    20 Sivan was a gezeira accepted by certain kehillos to commemorate their own tzaros. Gantz Klal Yisroel only does Tisha B’av. Ayein Rashi in Divrei Hayamim II on the possuk Vayekonein Yirmiyahu al Yoshiyahu.

    #944575

    MorahRach
    Member

    Ill never understand the attitude that I am reading here, and that unfortunately so many people I know have regarding this day. No one is saying to fast or say special teffilos, no one is counting it as a yuntif, it is just a day- a regular day in which we take special notice of how lucky we are to be alive and of all the pain and torture and suffering our people went through in the very recent past. Growing up my modern orthodox school always had a yom hashoah event, we read different passages from diaries and journals written by boys and girls in the camps, we put on a play depicting probable scenes from that time, it is very important for kids these days to be immersed in this history. In a few years we won’t have any survivors left, but we can’t forget it. Saying a special kinos on tisha baav is obviously a good thing to do but what 5th grader even knows what they are saying/listening to/answering amen to. They need to hear the stories and learn about what their people went through just like they do every other battle we’ve overcome.

    #944576

    Sam2
    Participant

    I am going to tell a story here. I personally am not so happy with how the government decided to do Yom Hashoah. They should not have made it during Nissan. They could have chosen any day. They could have done it in a religious fashion. They didn’t.

    I was once listening to a Chareidi relative of mine in Israel give a Shiur after Shalosh Suedos. Someone asked him what Da’as Torah about Yom Hashoah is (exact wording of the question). He said that it’s always a good idea to remember what happened and to mourn, but that 28 Nissan is not the right day for that. And therefore, to show that the government was going against the religious with this decision, we should ignore it. An old, frail man in the back of the Beis Midrash stood up and said, quite clearly, “How dare you?! How dare you reduce our nation, our loss, our memory to nothing more than a weighing of when is appropriate to remember it. It doesn’t matter how wrong the government was. We were given a day to be remembered. But you, who are supposed to be my brothers, are trying to cause us to be forgotten.” (Sadly, it’s been a few years since then and I can’t say for sure that the quote is completely verbatim. But the last line I will never forget.)

    I don’t care whether I agree or disagree on technical grounds. That’s no longer the point. They were given a day. Maybe it should have been another day. I think it probably should have been another day. But they were given a day, and arguing with that is one of the grossest insults that anyone can hurl at them.

    #944577

    leefan
    Member

    The frail old zionist in the back was as wrong as can be. Given a day to be remembered? Given by whom? Some anti-semites in the government who hate Torah and religion. Who cares. I’m “giving” the day to be February 28th. That day I set is no less important that the anti-religious set date. The rabbonim also gave a day for it. That day is Tisha B’Av. And that is the correct day.

    #944578

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    I remember that in summer camp we had a lot of focus on the Holocaust before and during Tisha Bav. Our camp brought in survivors and we had small groups of teens bonding with them and spending hours together with discussion, q and A and ending with an Ani Maamin kumzits. This combined the need to learn and know, the need to remember and not forget and the appropriate weeks and a day.

    #944579

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    BTW the initial day that the secularists wanted to declare as Yom Hashoa Ugvura was 15th of Nissan!! That would have certainly discounted all Shomrei Shabbos! In truth it demonstrates who is doing it for what purpose. Shomrei Torah can find ways to do it appropriately.

    Agudas Yisroel has made Asara B’taivais a day to focus on aspects of the Holocaust as well . They supply schools with high quality professional video presentations.

    #944580

    squeak
    Participant

    If we were to “give a day” to every major Jewish tragedy that occurred in history there would not be enough days. Our wise sages therefore confined the period of national mourning for all tragedies to 3 specific weeks, so we can live normally the rest of the year.

    Klal yisroel gave the day of tisha bav to holocaust victims as a day of rememberance/mourning. Yes that day is shared with rememberance of countless other tragedies, but nothing could be more appropriate.

    Obviously, the zionists had and continue to have absolutely no interest in or respect for our sages. Their purpose in this case was not even to have you remember the holocaust but to have you remember that the day is brought to you by your friendly hedonistic zionist leaders. Nothing could be more disgusting.

    #944581

    old man
    Participant

    Emotions are certainly high on this issue and almost any opinion will be taken as an affront. Just look at the vicious reaction to a story told about someone who seems to have been a Survivor. Woe to us if we criticize these Survivors and “put them in their (zionist) place”.

    I suspect that the chareidi community knows they went overboard on this issue. The chareidi radio station Radio-kol-chai 93.0 FM spent a large portion of the day interviewing chareidi survivors and commentators about the Holocaust. I think that speaks for itself.

    #944582

    squeak
    Participant

    Since I know not everyone will read 3 paragraphs, let me summarize the main points.

    Following Chazal: appropriate, honors the victims

    Following Zionists: self serving, disgraces the victims

    As always.

    #944583

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yah, where I am, they had a speech by a 9/11 researcher for Yom Hashoa.

    See, the chilonim have done the same thing with Yom Hashoa as we do with tisha b’av. They use that day to mourn all other tragedies.

    #944584

    WIY
    Member

    I’m surprised nobody said this: we mention things like the holocaust in Tachanun every Monday and Thursday when we say Habeit mishamayim urei ki hayinu laag vakeles bagoyim nechshavnu katzon latevach yuval laharog uleabed, ulimaka ulicherpa… uvechal zos shimcha lo shachachnu. If someone knows what they are saying in Davening and pays attention then he thinks about the Holocaust at least twice a week in Shacharis! Between that and Tishaa Baav there is no further need to have a yom hashoah. However I do agree with those who want to institute Holocaust studies as a part of the curriculum. I do think that as time goes by and the survivors keep dwindling Holocaust awareness fades.

    #944585

    From the pen of DovBear

    Can you help me understand why these tragedies got days of their own rather than being subsumed into T’bav? If the 6000 Jews killed by Chelminiki merit a day, and the 24 thousand students of Rabbi Akiva merit a month, surely the 6,000,000 can be remembered independant of Tisha B’Av.

    #944586

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a big differnce between The Churban Bais Hamigdosh, The Spanish Expulsion, Chelmiski and the Holocaust.

    The diffence is nobody rembers or knows anyone who was a victim of the former tradgeties, but most people know survivors of the Holocaust and there are picures as well.

    When you say something every day it unfortuantly gets Jaded. If we leave one day a year to remember, It becomes somehing more thought about.

    #944587

    writersoul
    Member

    In my school, we usually have a speech or some other form of commemoration around Kristallnacht.

    I have no problem with Yom HaShoah. Everyone should have a zman kavua to remember in detail, even if in effect we remember all the time. For those who won’t remember on Tisha B’Av, why not have their own time? If the alternative is that nobody will take the time to reflect on and remember it, then you’re shooting yourself in the foot by protesting.

    #944588

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Two thoughts about Yom Hashoah VeHagvurah.

    As someone mentioned, this part of the year was chosen as it is at this time that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising occurred. As the day commemorates not only the dead but the resistance – and gevurah took many forms, both spiritual (like those who celebrated pesach in the last days of the Warsaw Ghetto) and physical (like those who finally came together from all streams to fight the Germans off for a few days and weeks in 1943). If nothing else, this is the rationale for the timing, and anyone who spreads the falsehood that it is in Nisan dafka lehachis will need to give din vecheshbon to HKBH for their lies.

    ANd the whole hue and cry about Yom Hashoah dispossessing TIsha BeAv, or dishonouring the celebratory month of Nisan is a straw man, pure and simple.

    Did someone tell you to say kinos? Ovinu Malkeinu? Slichos?

    Did someone tell you dafka to say Tachanun if you aren’t?

    Did someone order you to give an individual Hespid?

    Did someone ask you to establish a fast day?

    Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    The reason it is rejected by the chareidi world is simple.

    Fear.

    Fear of the consequences of recognizing national responsibilities and national observances. That would mean that other Jews actually had a legitimate voice…in anything. Indeed, something to fear.

    The second thought.

    Even if one disagrees with my first point, the display of disregard for the sensitivities of the hamon am by dozens of chareidi yeshiva bochurim and kolleleit and their families in Sacher Park in Yerushalayim the other night, and the rationalizations given by those interviewed is disgusting, and indicates that whoever educated these people failed to introduce them to simple menschlichkeit. And yes, I know some will say – but “they” don’t care about our sensitivities! Well, if you don’t expect more from yourselves, how can you maintain your certainty of superior observance of mitzvos – especially of Hillel’s cardinal one?

    #944589

    midwesterner
    Participant

    DovBear is one of the most vocal “Malig al divrei chachamim” in Klal Yisroel. He is against anything that rabbanim say first, then he figures out the reason. EXACTLY what he accuses us of in that post.

    #944590

    midwesterner
    Participant

    And to address his specific points, TZom Gedaliah was established by the same Chazal who established Tisha B’av in response to Churban Bais Hamikdash. Taanis Esther could also fit into that if it would be a day of mourning, but it isn’t that anyway. Sefira is not an official azkara, only a miut in simcha. Anyone who has ever been in availus and learned the halachos should know the difference. And anyways those date back to tanaim, who were authorizeed to make such takanos. The crusades are b’davka mentioned in kinos on Tisha B’av (Mi Yitein Roshi Mayim, Sha’ali Serufa Baesh, and others.) And Tach V’tat was only imposed on the medina that suffered.

    #944591

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Zdad, quite the contrary, the Tzaros that are forgotten should have a day to remember them. The stuff that we are living through don’t need reminnders.

    I believe I explained the difference very clearly between Tzom Gedalya and Talmidei Rebbe Akiva, and the Spanish expulsion, crusaders — which we don’t keep anymore since it was a local thing, the 1902 progrom, and the holocaust.

    And yes, a day not being set by Rabbanim, like the rest of the set days, is an excellent reason for it not to be sanctified.

    Nobody can judge the survivor, nor do we tell him to be quiet. But, nor can we set policy based on someone’s emotion. That person subscribes to the Yom Hashoa idea because of his background, so obviously he views anyone who doesn’t as not respecting the concept of remembering him and his loss. Do you think there are no Chareidi survivors that you can turn this into Chareidi vs. Survivors?

    Talk about remembering, it is Artscroll who has a whole division on the holocaust. Our children read about it all the time, not just one day. And, as Rabbaim said, in camp Tisha B’av was full of holocaust lectures and presentations.

    Like many other topics, all the arguments are really based on the initial attitude. In truth, had this been an American concept, it would have been more respected. Most issues in EY stem from the fact that the government is looked at as Jews and judged from that angle. American Chareidim often view the Israeli government no different from our own, so we don’t have this perspective as much.

    #944592

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Better question: What does CR feel about the alleged incident where a group of Yeshiva bachurim held a barbeque near Yad V’Shem yesterday?

    #944593

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Midwesterner your “points” are without merit:

    “TZom Gedaliah was established by the same Chazal who established Tisha B’av in response to Churban Bais Hamikdash.”

    That may very well be true, but it disproves the notion that we have no additional days of mourning after Tisha Baav was instituted

    ” Sefira is not an official azkara, only a miut in simcha. Anyone who has ever been in availus and learned the halachos should know the difference. And anyways those date back to tanaim, who were authorizeed to make such takanos.”

    Sefira is a period of aveilus(During Nissan btw, at least for many) you can try to make artificial distinctions from today until tomorrow, and no it is not from chazal. Taanis Esther isnt from Chazal either, though granted it isnt really aveilus

    ” The crusades are b’davka mentioned in kinos on Tisha B’av (Mi Yitein Roshi Mayim, Sha’ali Serufa Baesh, and others.)”

    20 Sivan was originaly for the crusades and in particular for the community of Blois that was burned

    ” And Tach V’tat was only imposed on the medina that suffered.”

    So That would mean you have no problem with Survivors and their descendants commemorating Yom Hashoah

    #944594

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I know this will be controversial, but….

    Ittisa and I recently had a discussion (DMC) regarding the Holocaust. I was adamant and she agrees, that as the Torah says:

    ???????? ????????, ???????????? ??????? ?????????.

    All punishments given to Klal Yisroel are rooted in the Chet HaEigel. We (as a Klal) have not rectified and/or have done proper Teshuva for that Avairah and its causes, so we continue to be punished.

    A significant problem (IMHO) is that since the punishment of Churban Europe was so great, it (many times) overshadows (at this point in our history) the Churban HaBayis, Chas V’Shalom. V’haraya, the presentations regarding Churban on Tisha B’Av are that of Churban Europe, not Churban HaBayis. Perhaps for that reason alone we should have a separate day, so that the Churban HaBayis could be mourned properly. (As a side point, presentations pushing Kiruv or Shmiras HaLashon are wonderful, but are NOT the point of Tisha B’av, which is a day of mourning regarding the destruction of the Batei Mikdash).

    That being said, IMHO (and I am in no way a “gadol”) the appropriate day for mourning Churban Europe would be the 17th of Tammuz, which is the day of the Chet HaEigel. We would then remember how our Chataim cause us to be punished until this day, and how we should due Teshuva. Three weeks later, we would then be able to appropriately mourn individually for the loss of the Batei HaMikdash.

    Once again, I’m not a Gadol, but those are my thoughts.

    #944595

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Better question: What does CR feel about the alleged incident where a group of Yeshiva bachurim held a barbeque near Yad V’Shem yesterday?

    If they can sell Yom Hashoah BBQ aprons (google it), it must be acceptable.

    Besides, they were “fake” Yeshiva Bochrim. The article on YNet says:

    While the neighboring Yad Vashem museum held a somber memorial service, the yeshiva students and young haredi women gathered around smoking grills.

    Real Charaidim would never BBQ with their wives, and certainly not in public.

    #944596

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, I hear, but, OTOH, it is said that all tzaros since the churban habayis result from it, so it’s a more direct cause.

    To address your side point, presentations enhancing bein adam l’chavero are quite appropriate for a day on which we mourn tragedies brought by sinas chinom.

    #944597

    acers
    Participant

    ubiquitin: Chazal could make a new day for Klal Yisroel, we cannot.

    If a handful (or however large or small) number of people want to make a newfangled day for them to remember an event, by all means do so and have whatever celebrations or whatever you wish. But do not expect all of Klal Yisroel or all survivors to recognize or respect or honor or do anything different on that date set by some secularists who have no love for the Torah than any other date on the calendar. We won’t impose our disagreement with it on you, and you cannot impose this date upon us. You and likeminded can have it, but don’t expect it to be recognized by others as anything other than a typical workday or playday.

    #944598

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Gavra, watch the video.

    #944599

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    acers, Great so you agree that the State of Israel can create such a day for Israel.

    #944600

    acers
    Participant

    Sure. And they can create Olympic Martyrs Remembrance Day too, to mark the Munich massacre, every September 6th.

    But don’t expect all residents of the Holy Land to participate or even recognize/acknowledge these days.

    #944601

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra, watch the video.

    I can’t, Boruch Hashem.

    #944602

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To address your side point, presentations enhancing bein adam l’chavero are quite appropriate for a day on which we mourn tragedies brought by sinas chinom.

    I hear, but don’t agree (and yes, I know there are “Gedolim” that argue). It still takes one’s mind off the Churban. Perhaps it should be done as a small part of a greater picture, but not as the main thrust.

    #944603

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Uri Regev: “I have to admit I don’t remember many cases of barbeques on Holocaust Day…”

    I am appalled at the thought of a BBQ adjacent to Yad Vashem on Yom Hashoa, but gratified that even a soneh Yisrael such as Regev (just Google the rest of his comment) has to admit that’s it’s an anomaly.

    Aside from there being legitimate mekoros for not having a national day of mourning other than Tisha B’av, the date chosen is especially abhorrent for commemorating “gevurah”, which is right in line with the Zionists’ theme of kochi v’otzem yadi.

    #944604

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I disagree with those some who do not observe Yom Hashoa

    However I do not belive that video tells anything or if it even occured on Yom Hashoa. It was likely done to inflame Anti-Haredi Sentiment

    #944605

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    acers,

    Great! sounds like we are making progress!

    So if you claimed the reason why you didnt commemorate “Olympic Martyrs Remembrance Day ” Is because these days cant be created once Tishaa baav was established you would be saying nonsense (as you yourself agreed), and would have some other reason guiding your opposition.

    In other words you explained why charedim have the right to disregard Yom hashoa, not why they actually do

    I outlined 2 such reasons in my first post on this subject.

    #944606

    yichusdik
    Participant

    DY, please, please disabuse yourself of the notion that Kochi veOtzem Yodi is a common belief among soldiers in the IDF or among even resisters in the shoah. Even the completely frei Bielski brothers valued the bits of Jewish education they could manage in their forest camps, and valued am yisroel more than themselves; and there are no atheists in the foxholes.

    I know hundreds of Israelis who have served in combat, religious and non religious, from the War of Independence until now – including my grandmother’s late cousin and his late wife, zichronom livrochoh, frum Jews all their life who served in the Haganah. I’ve never heard any of them describe their own valour in those terms. not once. I’ve heard them talk about nisim. I’ve heard them talk about HKBH’s help. I’ve heard them talk about the heroism and sacrifice of their brothers in arms. I’ve read their books and articles, I’ve seen them on film. Not ever, not once have I heard kochi veotzem yodi. I bet you haven’t either, except perhaps as described by someone who wanted to convince you that “di andere” are self centered morons blinded by their own sense of invincibility.

    You make an assertion. Maybe its just conditioning. Maybe its reflexive. I’ll be dan lekaf zchus and assume it isn’t malevolent. But it is simply and utterly in grave error.

    #944607

    acers
    Participant

    ubiquitin: Anyone can create any personal or group memorial or commemoration. Many people celebrate their wedding anniversary. Others may mark every year the date they were rescued from kidnappers. Nothing wrong with any of that. But they aren’t a Jewry-wide day. A Jewry-wide day can only be instituted by Chazal. And it is unreasonable to expect all of Jewry to recognize a day some group of laymen, especially laymen who have no love for the Torah, institute.

    As far as the two reasons you outlined in your first post above, I generally agree with them. (Though not your analysis that we feel excluded/slighted due to our non-participation. There was no point or benefit in the armed resistance and we are glad we didn’t participate.)

    That being said, even if the institutors of this day did not choose it to commemorate (and date it to) the armed resistance and did not use it to signify that they believe the geulah has already come, we still would not participate in it. That is because we already have Tisha B’Av for this purpose and use it for just that.

    #944608

    artchill
    Participant

    Daas Yochid: You’ll be shocked how many non-Zionist yeshivish people believe in kochi v’otzem yadi. The Zionists don’t hold the exclusive license of the concept.

    #944609

    Sam2
    Participant

    First of all, DovBear is the second-most vile anti-Jewish “Frum” blogger out there and should never be quoted. Ever.

    Second of all, (this is mainly towards midwesterner), if you look up the Mekoros, most of the Nihugei Aveilus during Sefirah are because of the Crusades, not R’ Akiva’s students, and were instituted well after the time of Chazal.

    #944610

    Sam: that shows we add it on to a Chazal instituted day rather than create our own chosen new date.

    #944611

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yichusdik and Artchill, I am not talking about soldiers or even Zionists. I am talking about Zionism, which is pretty much institutionalized kochi v’otzem yadi.

    #944612

    Sam2
    Participant

    DH: And this added day was during Sefira too.

    #944613

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    First of all, DovBear is the second-most vile anti-Jewish “Frum” blogger out there and should never be quoted. Ever.

    I’m guessing your number one is the failed blogger?

    #944614

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I honestly think that he has the Din of a Moser, if not an outright Rodef.

    #944616

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Probably.

    I’ve gone there a few times in the past. I was off-put by his way of twisting facts, when I was familiar with the subject matter.

    #944617

    Josh31
    Participant

    The Torah does talk about “kochi v’otzem yadi”, but not in the way the hard right Kanoim talk about it. They equate it to Baal Worship. The Torah follows thru that we must realize that our strength comes from G-d.

    Some of the posters in this thread have such an intense hatred of “Zionism” that it inevitably results in disrespect for those who died in the Holocaust.

    Throughout history many practices of in the way of honor “derech kavod” have arisen far away from the Torah world, such as the dressing in a suit and tie for respectful occasions. The Torah world has then embraced those modes, and are among the most diligent in dressing respectfully.

    The “moment of silence” has now become a very important derech kavod in the eyes of most people. Any lack of respect during such a moment tags the individuals and their families and their community as being brazen – azuse panim.

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