January 12, 2016 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #617043
My daughter got offered a shidduch of a YU Bochur, he seems like a good guy, he learns seriously and has a plan (and almost a degree), but he went to one of the Hesder Yeshiva’s in Eretz Yisroel and might have shittos that are a little bit more modern. Can YU guys be good for a bais yaakov girl (She went to BJJ) or will they not be compatible.
edited by requestJanuary 12, 2016 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1139184
Find out which Hesder Yeshiva. Some are more Hesder oriented and some are more Yeshiva oriented.
Find out what he has done since then in terms of outlook.January 12, 2016 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1139185
Show me a YU bochur and I’ll show you a Rav Bick; a Rav Bulman; a Rav Shechter; a Rav Eider; a Rav Kahn; a Rav Tendler; etc; etc.January 12, 2016 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1139186
I have actually been redt to a couple of YU boys. My father’s family is affiliated with YU, and most of my cousins go there, so the suggestions have come from my aunts. My father told me not to reject them out of hand, since they could be very good boys.
I personally think that yeshivish hashkafos and YU ones are incompatible. A number of my cousins are really solid YU boys, but their whole mentality is different. The entire approach to halacha and hashkafa (especially when it comes to tznius between the genders and Israel) is completely different.
So while I would not say no out of hand if I got a yes from a YU boy, I would be very wary. That is my personal opinion, though, and others are entitled to disagree.January 12, 2016 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1139187
cherrybim- that is also true, but again, it’s something you want to check into. What are the boy’s hashkafos now?January 12, 2016 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1139188
Technical21 – What do you mean that their approach to halacha and hashkafa is completely different? The boy’s sister dress very tzanuah from the research I’ve done and they do not talk to boys, that being said, one of his sisters (23) learns gemera very seriously and has finished 2 sedarim of gemeraJanuary 12, 2016 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1139189
If it’s Sam2, go for it ( ;January 13, 2016 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1139190
Not all YU bochrim are the same.
Some are quite yeshivish just in YU because they need the college degree/ familiar pressure/ etcJanuary 13, 2016 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1139191
aconcernedima- There is a wide rage in YU. There are very yeshivish guys in YU who basically would have the same Hashkafa as this girl and those who aren’t. There definitely is not some vast schism, as technical21 seems to be saying, between YU guys in their halachic and hashkafic approach. It depends on the guy and my guess is that if he is redt to a beis yaakov girl than he is from the yeshivishe guys of YU who would have nearly the identical hashkafa.January 13, 2016 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1139192
You can be black hat in YU if you want to. YU is becoming framer.January 13, 2016 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1139193
Yosi7- you could be right. I am going based on my experience with the YU community, which comes on a pretty consistent basis from my cousins’ world.
Just to put things in perspective, my grandfather refers to R’ Yosher Ber as “the Rov.”
I’ll give you examples of my experiences with people affiliated with YU:
– One of my uncles questioned whether the halacha is that the elbow has to be covered, or whether it’s only the forearm. Many of my aunts don’t cover their elbows and knees (not that that’s limited to the YU community at all).
– My uncle taught Gemara to girls for 30 years.
– My cousin got married on Sunday night, and he danced with his kallah in the women’s section. I could not dance at all by 2nd dance- let’s leave it at that.
– My frummest cousin- a solid Michlalah girl who could pass for a Bais Yaakov girl based on appearance and many hashkafos- gives a chaburah to girls, and went on NCSY kollel.
– All of my cousins are Zionists. They also say a mishebairach for the Israeli army every Shabbos.
Contrast that with yeshivish hashkafos, and you’re left with a big divide. This is my own personal experience with YU, though- from what Yosi7 said, it sounds like I’m not all up-to-date with the place.January 13, 2016 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1139194
It is actually unfortunate that this question has to be asked. If this person has good middos, learns, and also fulfills Chazals directives to be self sufficient, then what is not to like? What do you mean that his shittos might be too modern? If he has legitimate Torah views, then good. And the views of hesder Yeshivot such as KBY and Gush may not be mainstream, but they are definitely legitimate.January 13, 2016 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1139195
“They also say a mishebairach for the Israeli army every Shabbos.”
What is controversial with a misheberach for the Israeli army?January 13, 2016 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1139197
If it’s KBY then you have no problem – it’s chutznik programme is literally black as all the rebeim are black.
There only real hashkafah is to not worry about the ‘fluf’ and focus on what’s important!!January 13, 2016 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1139198
If its good zivug so she changes her sheetot as the wife takes on her husband’s minhagim. BTW, Nechama Soloveichik, granddaughter of Rav Aharon, is a BY alumna and she is a freelance media consultant for conservative Republican candidates, which sounds pretty modern to me.
As for mainstream, it depends on which stream.January 13, 2016 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1139199
Bored- not everyone holds of such things, especially in the yeshivish world.
Slifkonian- a lot of MO rabbonim have different shittos on halacha than yeshivish rabbonim. That will lead to different takes on halacha. For example- with regard to tznius (in clothing and between the genders), kashrus, etc. there can be vast differences.
gavra- it was bad word choice, but her question is valid: should she stay away from a YU boy, or let her daughter go out with him?
Avi K- that’s the point; does the girl want to change her shittos in ways that she does not believe are correct? Also, that second point about Nechama Soloveitchik is one example out of thousands and thousands of BY girls.January 13, 2016 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1139200
JKJanuary 13, 2016 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1139203
“one of his sisters (23) learns gemera very seriously and has finished 2 sedarim of gemera”
I agree, do not let your daughter go out with his sister.January 13, 2016 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1139205
Slifkonian It is actually unfortunate that this question has to be asked. If this person has good middos, learns, and also fulfills Chazals directives to be self sufficient, then what is not to like? What do you mean that his shittos might be too modern? If he has legitimate Torah views, then good.
Im guessing if your name is Slifkonian then your just trolling. That and you expecting this girl to want a guy who is self sufficient.January 13, 2016 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1139206
Apushatayid – wasn’t trying to knock YU, I’m a big fan of itJanuary 13, 2016 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1139207
As a “YU Bochur” myself I take offense to the doubt that you have of allowing your daughter to go out with this “good guy”. Many talmidim in my yeshiva are just like the talmidim that learn in any “yeshivish” yeshiva and go to college, many are even stronger than some who learn in a “yeshivish” yeshiva. They learn strong for two sedarim (maybe even three), are serious about their avodas Hashem, have good middos etc. etc. the only difference is that as opposed to driving from yeshiva to college, we walk across the street to college. True, there are a wide range of talmidim in YU, some more modern than others, but I assume that your daughter is not being redt a truly “modern” guy. The guy that is being suggested for your daughter is probably very similar to the guys she has already gone out with.
“but he went to one of the Hesder Yeshiva’s in Eretz Yisroel and might have shittos that are a little bit more modern”
This can happen with any guy, even with one who learns in Lakewood, Mir etc. everyone has a different Rebbe so it is inevitable that certain shittos will different (aka “modern”). There is a reason a guy and a girl go on dates. To see if they are compatible. Nobody is suggesting that your daughter marry this guy without going out with him. There are certain things that can not be learnt about someone without meeting and getting to speak to them. In the end it may not work out with this guy, but she may see that there is something specific about YU guys that she likes that she would not have known without going out with him.January 13, 2016 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1139208
Sorry about the bad wording – maybe an admin can take it down for the sake of Shalom Yisroel – I apologize for any bad feelings and sinas chinam that might have happened hereJanuary 13, 2016 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1139209
My concern has nothing to do with the wording. If you admit that “he seems like a good guy, he learns seriously and has a plan” then shouldn’t that be sufficient information to give it a shot? Just because he learns in YU should not detract from the person that he is.January 13, 2016 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1139210
What if the question was about a bochor from Yeshiva of Flatbush?
I don’t see the answer being essentially materially different whether it’s a YoF bochor or a YU bochor.January 14, 2016 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1139211
Yeshiva of Flatbush is a coed high school. If you’re equating it with YU, it’s a problem you have to deal with, no one elseJanuary 14, 2016 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1139212
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I agree with LC.January 14, 2016 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1139213
Is Ramaz coed too?January 14, 2016 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1139214
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
YesJanuary 14, 2016 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1139215
Uh, why not let them go out and discuss their hashkafos? Regardless of the standard lines of YU and Bais Yaakov they may actually be closer than it appears when other discuss the couple.January 14, 2016 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1139217
“wasn’t trying to knock YU, I’m a big fan of it”
Of course.January 14, 2016 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1139218
Just a note about YU. There are different programs within the Yeshiva (several choices for weaker backgrounds). Therefore, you might want to ask whose shiur he is in.
Personally, I graduated 35 years ago. Many of my classmates are currently roshei yeshiva, rabbanim and leaders of their communities (such as board members of yeshivos and shuls). Recently, my son got semicha at YU. Unlike many yeshivos with one or two year programs, the semicha at YU is four years and covers multiple topics not covered elsewhere.
Over the years, the YU program has become even frummer. Many of the mixed events such as the chanuka chagiga are now separate for men and women at completely different locations. Frankly, the bochurim coming back from E”Y are just frummer and will not attend a modern school.
Bottom line is that you may be happily surprised that the prized “learner-earner” is a good YU bochur.January 14, 2016 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1139219
Short answer: Yes they can be.
Longer answer: Depends on the guy- Which yeshiva did he go to? What are his personal hashkafos? What do each of them see for themselves in X number of years? Basically, the same questions you’d ask about any shidduch.
There is a HUGE variety of guys at YU. (Full disclosure: I go to Stern. A LOT of people complain that YC is getting too frum. You are VERY likely to find a yeshivish guy there, whether one who “flipped out” or one who grew up yeshivish.) Especially at RIETS- one of my very yeshivish relatives is there for smicha. You have to look at the actual guy.
Caveat, though- and this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot- there may be a lot of culture shock, even if they personally completely match on hashkafos. One of my best friends since high school is RWMO- very YU affiliated, and we actually argue a lot about- not even hashkafos, but just random different things like her not understanding the yeshivish shidduch system, which I’m forced to actually DEFEND, R”L- which clash between my yeshivish upbringing and her MO one. While it’s not NECESSARY by a long shot, there can be comfort issues involved in relationships with people who have the same culture. This is something your daughter and the guy would have to decide for themselves.
There can be big hashkafic gaps, yes (though I’d disagree with technical20 on some finer points in her breakdown). They would both have to decide if the ways they envision their future lives are synchronous, as it DOES seem like this guy is coming from a different background, to an extent. So just do the same due diligence that you’d do for any other shidduch, and if regardless of background or education the guy seems like a great match for your daughter, then the fact that he goes to YU is irrelevant.
Good luck!January 14, 2016 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1139220
Why was my post (which was previously approved) deleted?
There was nothing wrong with it. It was removed, along with several other posts, because it referenced a post which was edited by request to remove something offensive.January 14, 2016 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1139221
Like any Yeshiva, there is a mix of bochurim. I know plenty of YU bochurim who are amazing oyvday Hashem and have hashkafos that are similar if not better than the bochurim from other yeshivas. Your daughter should treat this as any other boy and do the proper research and try it out. It is a shame that YU has come to be considered some black stain or psul when, in actuality, there are wonderful bochurim there. Some of my friends in YU are much frummer than my friends from Mir. It’s all dependent on the person, not the place. Judge a person for who he is and what he believes in and don’t generalize (usually falsely) about various places. The fact that this question was even asked is pathetic.January 14, 2016 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1139222
Wolf: There’s a new sheriff in town.January 14, 2016 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1139223
Wolf: There’s a new sheriff in town.
Apparently. I wonder what it was about my post that was so offensive that it needed to be taken down?
The WolfJanuary 14, 2016 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1139224
im not a moderator and they likely dont need a spokesperson, but…
the moderator is telling you that since you responded to something that is no longer posted, your response is out of place.
Yes, but Wolf’s last post was posted before my bolded comment in the previous one was.January 14, 2016 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1139225
Fair enough. Thank you, mods.
The WolfJanuary 14, 2016 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1139226
if someone is in yu, at the very least he is saying that he doesn’t feel uncomfortable in that environment. that is very telling, whether you consider that positive or negative.January 15, 2016 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1139227
“if someone is in yu, at the very least he is saying that he doesn’t feel uncomfortable in that environment. that is very telling, whether you consider that positive or negative.”
Forgive me for disagreeing but that’s simply not true.
I should hope that a frum person needing to work in Manhattan would feel uncomfortable walking outside to get a to a bus or subway due to the many billboards, signs, passerbys, etc. but there are plenty of bnei Torah that still work in the city. It might not be ideal or comfortable, but for whatever reason they still work there.
I think you should rather say that “at the very least he is saying that he doesn’t feel uncomfortable in that environment to the extent that he would be prepared to leave it regardless of personal circumstances, costs, and sacrifices.”January 15, 2016 7:23 am at 7:23 am #1139228
“Over the years, the YU program has become even frummer. Many of the mixed events such as the chanuka chagiga are now separate for men and women at completely different locations. Frankly, the bochurim coming back from E”Y are just frummer and will not attend a modern school.”
As a current student- this is not true. Each school has its own chagiga, but there is also a joint chagiga. There are many coed events. That said, nobody has to go to any of them by any stretch of the imagination, and there are many many many guys who don’t- in fact, many of them are during night seder.
As far as asking about shiur- statistically (and sociologically, if he’s being suggested to a BJJ girl) he’s probably in YP, the program most similar to a mainstream yeshiva. Very intensive learning, with some incredible roshei yeshiva giving shiur. Finding out which RY’s shiur he’s in can sometimes even say a lot about the guy (as some RYs have specific sorts of followings, though some don’t), or at the very least provide another person to check in about the guy with :).January 15, 2016 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1139229
I don’t understand. Hesder yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel are for Israeli boys who learn in yeshiva and then go to the army. What kind of yeshiva did he go to in EY?January 15, 2016 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1139230
Many Hesder yeshivos will have an American program (from a cynical perspective its to get money to support the Israel and Kollel programs they have, but that’s just being cynical). These students will typically learn there for 1-3 years and return to the US for college/yeshiva.
In some cases the hashkafos or emphases of the American program will be somewhat different from the Israeli program. Sometimes it will be closer to the standard ‘yeshivish’ model that most people think of. For example, many people say that about the American program in KBY, something I would agree with.January 17, 2016 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1139231
technical21 – you brought up that your cousin gives chaburas to girls as a bad thing. I don’t understand that – my very very chassidishe cousin in borough park gives shiurim to women in her house; why is it bad that a girl is giving a shiur to other girls? Where were you going with that?January 17, 2016 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1139232
birdson: Not cynical, but realistic (which is what we all say…). I went to Michlalah (which, while obviously not a hesder yeshiva :), is still an American program in an Israeli institution) and we all knew that our money was supporting the rest of the college. Our tuition was many times more than the Israelis would ever have dreamed of paying.January 17, 2016 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1139233
birdson- I think it’s inaccurate to state that a yeshivah like KBY is “closer to the yeshivish model.” While the learning is definitely more serious there than at other MO american yeshivos in Israel, the kids going aren’t yeshivish at all (although some rebbeim are).January 17, 2016 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1139234
As a YU guy I say go for it. The guy sounds like he’s from the more yeshivish side of YU. Besides just because you go to YU doesnt mean that you can’t be Yeshivish. There are plenty of people that went to YU in the yeshivish world. YU just has a broad spectrum. Also you should be more concerned who his Rebbe in YU is then the yeshiva he went to in Israel. His rebbe would have the most recent influence on his hashkafa.January 17, 2016 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1139235
gdovz- I meant in Gemara.February 22, 2016 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1139236
As a YU bochur myself, i am extremely offended. Now i know why i attend YU and not any of your yeshivish yeshivas. You are all close minded and creating unnecessary sinas chinam. When i went to the mir for a week, i saw half the bochrim batuling all day and never entering the confines of the beit midrash. They would hang out and smoke by the restaurants all day and one of them even bragged to me that he calls in to NY sports radio everyday, so much so that the radio host (a goy! *gasp*) recognizes his name and voice. The fact that you would prefer that guy bc he went to the mir and not a YU bochur who is learning a minimum of 6.5 hours a day, by choice!!! he is not being forced to do this, like in the yeshivish velt. He is learning bc he wants to. It is easy to fall thru the cracks in YU due to the diversity, so the fact that he is in the beis medrash should mean more than anything else. I would bet my life that if you would look at YU and their roshei yeshiva without any preconceived false notions, then you would see that they are second to none and they can learn with anyone. The roshei yeshiva are mamash gedolei torah and are worthy of being the rosh hayeshiva in any chashuv yeshivish yeshiva. will your daughter’s life end if she went on a date with a YU bochur!? if so, then maybe you should be asking us YU bochurim if your daughter (or any of these yeshivish girls) are chasuv enough to go on dates with us!February 22, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1139237
I’m sorry you have such a chip on your shoulder.
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