Zionist Quote

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  • #589829

    qaws
    Member

    Posting for a friend:

    There is a famous quote from one of the early Zionist leaders, which has been quoted multiple times by the Yated. One of the early Zionists states that “we’ll know we have succeeded when there are Jewish criminals sitting in Jewish jails for petty crimes”, or something like that. Of course, he never meant to say that this is the epitome of the Zionist dream as much as that this is a sign of a normal society. Who said this quote, or something similar?

    #649111

    qaws-

    A quick Google search finds those words (or something similar) attributed to David Ben Gurion.

    #649112

    azi
    Participant

    Theodore Herzl said that we will know that Israel has made it as a county when we have a Jewish criminal arrested by a Jewish police officer and brought before a Jewish judge.

    #649114

    opp23
    Member

    what is wrong with a Jewish person wanting another Jewish person to be in jail if they guy committed a crime?

    Azi’s quote makes much more sense than what the original poster wrote(also, the rule is that you can’t put double quotes and say “or something like that” if it isnt a direct quote). people demonize Zionists while forgetting the original goal was simply to save jewish lives- Herzl wanted Uganda I believe it was, as a temporary solution- a place where Jewish people could escape from persecution in Europe. Israel wasn’t a feasible option at the time.

    #649115

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    I think it is attributed to Herzl of less than blessed memory.

    #649116

    anonymouse1079
    Participant

    I know most people here don’t “hold by” Zionism. But Herzl originally wanted Israel after his “brilliant” (sarcasm intended) assimilation plan was derailed by Dreyfuss case. Chamberlain offered Uganda, he said no and then there was a pogrom in Kishinev so he changed mind and decided to accept Uganda.

    #649117

    why the bashing of zionism? they are part of klal yisroel. we might not share the same hashkafos or ideals that zionists might, but why the sinas chinam?

    #649118

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    We are bashing the leaders of that movement because their hashkafos destroyed the neshomos of hundreds of thousands of Jews. They were reshoyei amecho, Korach veadasoi, and worse than the Kapos who often were forced into serving as Kapos. They tried to complete the work of the physical Churban by means of their spiritual Churban in the transit camps, with refugees whom the state itself created.

    As we saw during the Altalena affair, these reshoim had no problem killing their fellow Jews so soon after the Churban.

    Finally, please read Amos Elon’s biography of Herzl to find out what disease he had and how it affected his brain. That is probably how he came up with all the mishegoss in Altneuland, some of which is beyond fantasy and full of megalomania.

    #649119

    I am not saying the leaders were right in taking away those first olim’s yiddishkeit (especially the children of the holocaust). I find it appalling that they could have done that. I am referring to the way that some yidden find it ok to bash zionists of today. many are shomer shabbos and are proud of it! they are not trying to steal yiddishkeit and are apologetic for what they did. They just see Israel as “the jewish state” and that it is a place for jewish refugees to escape to (law of return) in case of another holocaust. I know many of these “religious zionists” and while they are grateful to what the leaders provided them, they dont want to follow in the same path (ie taking yiddishkeit away).

    It is one thing to bash the leaders, another to bash those who “love Israel”. deep down, dont we all ‘love E”Y’ even if we arent zionists?

    Note: I am not a zionist but I hate this bashing of other sects of yiddishkeit! why can we live with the fact that we all are shomer torah umitzvos, even if in a different way?

    #649120

    feivel
    Participant

    why the bashing of zionism? they are part of klal yisroel. we might not share the same hashkafos or ideals that zionists might, but why the sinas chinam?

    kilobear answered your question quite well

    they were reshoim

    heres another quote:

    “please pass the ham”

    -golda meir

    also bear forgot to mention how the zionists took the frum Yeminites, brought them to Israel, cut off their peos, fed them treif and indoctrinated them to abandon Torah and Hashem, and take up the NEW values of the secular state of Israel.

    no we dont share their hashkofos. but it is not sinas chinom. it is sinas chiuv.

    #649121

    I am not referring to those who followed the zionism from the founding of E”Y and those who stole yiddishkeit away. I am referring to those in 2009 who hold a deep love for E”Y and want it as a Jewish State. No, not those who want to make it all chiloni, but those who say it is a place for all Jews. I know the history- you dont need to tell me. They were reshoim but those FRUM zionists around today are not the same as Meir, Gurion, Hertzl…

    #649122

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Most of those frum Zionists are armchair Zionists and a few American olim whose kids are the ones losing themselves in Kikar Krack because their parents made aliya with no concern as to their childrens’ needs.

    The former religious Zionists in EY are disillusioned. Their new rally song is Reb Amram Bloy’s Hashem Hu Malkeinu (the one the Ku Klutz Karta desecrates. After Gush Katif, they became completely disgusted with the state and now are rejecting it.

    Rav Kook, frankly, was very misguided, and those who follow him now realize that his starry eyed idealism stemmed not from Torah but from a misplaced belief in the value of the state and its founders – who were people that we would call baryoinim and oisvorfen today.

    #649123

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    kilobear- your expressions are for the books. Excellent posts

    #649124

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    🙂

    And I want to add that if you go to the post on American olim, you can see how army service is handled at what once was a very proudly religious Zionist yishuv. Now everyone is trying to shorten or avoid service.

    Just as Reb Amram Bloy ZYA is looking down from Gan Eden on the conversion of the theater which he protested for chilul Shabbos becoming a Satmar moisad and/or housing development, so, too are the gedoilim who resisted and continue to resist Zionism seeing that they were right.

    There is one challenge though – and that is for us to make sure that victims of Zionism become Torah Jews rather than ending up totally devoid of any Jewish identity. Many former Israelis do find Torah abroad, and of course there is a wave of return in EY, but it is just a fraction of what could be.

    If they become totally devoid of Jewish identity, then the Zionists have had their victory because they wanted us to become a nation among all others. We can’t let that happen!

    #649125

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Because they are Jews and as affected as anyone by the decisions which are foisted on them. In fact all Jews are affected by the misguided decisions of the memsheles zadoin in EY.

    #649126

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    kilobear- do you hold you’re allowed to visit the kosel? 😉

    #649127

    You are misunderstanding my posts. I understand that the israeli government has made MANY mistakes. I just cannot understand the hatred I hear from every side. I am not promoting zionism in the least- why cant you understand that? I am just saying that there are those who are frum, shomer torah umitzvos but they believe that a Jewish homeland is necessary, not because of nationalism or to be “like other nations”. Why is it ok to hate them? why is it ok for you to have sinas chinam like that? Because of the government, we can go to kever rochel, the machpeila, the kosel… they have done that much at least. If you hate it so much- dont send your daughters to ANY seminary in E”Y, your boys to ANY B”M in E”Y or ever visit there. Your married kids cant live there either. to do otherwise would be to give money to the israeli government and saying you agree with them.

    #649128

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Areivim, I do go to the Koisel. But honestly, I get little meaning from it unless I go at midnight or later when it is quiet, because during the day it has become one more tourist site (NOT helped by some of ours who don’t treat it as anything but a place to schnorr and disturb others).

    I spend only cash in EY as I know full well that storekeepers who get cash do not pay taxes, and I try to buy whatever I need in the non-Zionist sector. I think that other than taxi drivers, and occasionally Egged, I do not interact with the secular Zionist sector when I visit. El Al is not my first choice of airline.

    Seichel, the people you speak of are few and far between. They are mostly in Teaneck and Cedarhurst; at best they retire to EY or their children go but they often fail and come right back.

    And the fact is that with freedom for Jews everywhere but Iran (and that may come too if the riots get out of control and topple the Hamanite regime), we do not need the Zionist state. If it acted at least as well as the Waqf did in preserving holy sites, it would be one thing. If it really made Chevron, which is, unlike Tel Aviv, the source of our nationhood, safe for us it would also be another story. But it does not. And it does not properly protect those Jews who truly love the historical part of EY that was indeed given to the Jewish people derech ness, but that the Zionists desecrated from day one when Dayan OLBM surrendered control of har HaBayis to the Waqf. What is more, goyim see that it cannot properly wage a decisive war or make peace, and they then lose respect for Jews because they don’t differentiate between am Yisroel and the medine.

    The medine is the ultimate golus Jew, a debased shlimazel who succeeds at nothing, stripped of his gaon Yaakov and servile to the nations upon whom he depends for a crust of bread and a bit of begrudged legitimacy. A little bent old survivor amus”h of the Churban, who lives in Williamsburgh or Stamford Hill or Antwerp (or in a Torah neighborhood in EY for that matter), whom these Zionists deride, and who truly did his share in rebuilding the Jewish people after the war, is the true “new Jew” along with his ehrlicher descendants.

    #649129

    chaverim
    Member

    I didn’t realize you were so anti a certain sect of Am Yisrael. (how could this possible BE?)

    The same way we are against the reform. Neither are a sect of Am Yisrael in practice. (They are as individuals.)

    If you don’t like the government, you have the choice of moving out. If you choose to live there and benefit from the state, then abide by the laws of the land. When Mashiach will be king of Eretz Yisrael, it’ll be run according to Jewish law, but right now it’s a secular state

    The halacha is every Jew, including during galus, has an absolute RIGHT to live in E.Y. That is halacha. So you cannot say if you don’t like it move out.

    #649130

    ames- thank you! 😉

    “Besides, these are our brothers. Would you speak this way about a brother who has strayed from the path? We’re the older, wiser brother and we have to help our younger, messed up brother, but first we have to remember how much we love him.”

    that puts it so perfectly! well said! Relatives who are not frum- we still have to show our care, concern and love, as that will help to bring them back. Neglecting or hating them just pushes them off further!

    Chaverim- “The halacha is every Jew, including during galus, has an absolute RIGHT to live in E.Y. That is halacha. So you cannot say if you don’t like it move out.”

    Can you please say where this is a “right” and not a privilege? I was always taught that if we do the wrong thing the “land will kick us out”. That is what galus is… so how can you say that in galus we have a right to live there? we were kicked out and sent to galus!!

    #649131

    lesschumras
    Participant

    to chaverim and kilobear,

    If the Turks still governed, would you obey the laws? It seems you are trying to have it both ways. If it is a secular, non halachic government, what is your justification for not obeying the law? and kilobear, where are you getting your facts from re religious zionists? Can you cite the studies? What would you and chaverim do if the zionists decided to eliminate the learning exemption and made you subject to army service?

    #649132

    chaverim
    Member

    chaverim, are secular Jews really in the same category as reform Jews? Please educate me.

    It may be debatable who is worse between the reform leaders and the zionist leaders. They’re both pretty bad.

    And I’m not saying those who oppsose the State of Israel have to leave.

    Isn’t that exactly what you said in your previous comment?

    I’m just saying they have a choice. They choose to live in the country of Israel. Pretend it’s being governed by non Jews. What’s the difference.

    Many of them lived there before the zionists came. Let the zionists move out. And even those that didn’t, like I said earlier, have a halachic right to live there regardless of who is in brute control.

    Live there, but respect the government. (ok, I know that sounds ridiculous, but do you get my point?)

    You wouldn’t say that about Soviet Jews needing to respect the communist government oppressing Judaism, and the same applies here.

    Can you please say where this is a “right” and not a privilege?

    In various places. One of them if my memory is correct is a Ran I think in Mesechtes Nedarim.

    I was always taught that if we do the wrong thing the “land will kick us out”.

    That principle may apply in chutz l’aretz, but halachicly not in E.Y.

    #649133

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Lesschumras, yes, if the Turks still governed and allowed whatever access they allowed I would obey the laws upon visiting.

    However, a government of Ahav and Izevel has no right to rule in EY and that is what the Zionist experiment has produced.

    Ames, I am independent and do not blindly follow what any particular movement does. I am affiliated with Chabad but do not “drink the Kool-Aid” when it comes to loving rishus.

    #649134

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Who is talking about hating anyone? I just do not recognize them as having any kedusha, whereas they claim to be the leaders and the vanguard of Klal Yisroel. I despise their ideology, just as I despise Communism and Islam and Obama’s vapid socialism.

    Indeed, the land will kick out its sinful inhabitants – and it has. Just look in any pizzeria or shawarma shop in any Jewish neighborhood and see who works there, often illegally because he is better off doing menial work in the US than living legally in EY.

    And since Ames mentioned Chabad, ask any Chabad shaliach (or anyone else) who has visited Jews in remote jails who they visit – the answer is, Israelis. I have been told that in just about every jail of any size in the US there is an Israeli, usually there on drug related charges.

    That is the Zionist dream. Jewish criminals. From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals. None of this would have happened had these sad people’s grandparents and great grandparents not been uprooted and taken from their traditional ways, including having peot shaven, by the Zionists.

    #649135

    aggadah99
    Participant

    I’m saddened and horrified by the attitude expressed here. Maybe if you all came here you would have a positive influence on the metzius here instead of acting like modern day meraglim. And before you all shout that you are attacking Medinat Yisrael and not Eretz Yisrael, perhaps you should pause for a few moments and ask yourself honestly if you fail to see yad Hashem in the creation and history of the State? In 1949 everybody said hallel on Yom Haatzmaut. It was obvious to all that the birth of the State was a nothing short of miraculous, like a phoenix rising from the ashes of the Holocaust. Every war has been replete with miracles. Just think! Tiny Israel surrounded by enemies, attacked from all sides by no less than 5 Arab states, far greater in manpower and resources fended them all off in no less than five wars.

    There are numerous truly religious people who are zionists, who do you think are the crack soldiers in the elite units of the IDF nowadays. It is no longer kibbutznikim, it is chevre from Mercaz Harav and from Yesha. True, many of us find it necessary nowadays to make a distinction between the concept of the state, in which we believe, and the government.

    To correct the misguided impression in the post on Olim, this has long been the shita, to do a very limited army service. Religious zionists are often accused of putting more emphasis on Eretz Yisrael than on the Torah. I meant to try and correct this impression, to explain that everything in our lives is filtered through the prism of Torah.

    #649136

    Feif Un
    Participant

    KiloBear, you said “And the fact is that with freedom for Jews everywhere but Iran (and that may come too if the riots get out of control and topple the Hamanite regime), we do not need the Zionist state.”

    I’m sure the Jews in Germany in the 1930s thought the same way. The fact is, anti-semitism exists everywhere, and things can change in an instant in any country.

    #649138

    squeak
    Participant

    ames, perhaps today one can equate the average Reform Jew with the average secular Jew, as both are likely to be tinokos she’nishbu. The real Reformers are all but extinct and all that is left is the sad brand of “religion” that they left behind. There are still many blind followers, but I doubt that there are many Reform Jews anymore who understand the history and the purpose of the movement; those who do either become its leaders or leave the fold to seek truth.

    I think that the same can be said about Zionism, in a way.

    #649139

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Yes, Squeak is correct.

    There are a few true Religious Zionist believers, who are well meaning but misled (and not guilty of anything other than deluding themselves so long as they do not try to convert others to their delusions).

    Secular Zionism, however, is dead on left and right (which are now interchangeable).

    Now, the ideology is post-Zionism, a vapid, valueless, confused non-ideology that reminds me quite a bit of Obama’s babble. No substance, no real plans, just go with the flow of the rest of the world and stop trying to be special in any way.

    But the problem is that the end product of Zionism was supposed to be post-Zionism in which, indeed, Israel was to become just another nation instead of am levadoi tishkon and am segula. That is why religious Zionism is a delusion. You cannot make a cake that calls for two cups of sugar with one cup of sugar and one of lye. The lye of Zionism wins out in the end, because caustic lye renders the whole cake inedible and dangerous. That is why I am not a big fan of the charedi parties either; they are just trying to get a bigger piece of the same contaminated cake rather than pulling bnei Torah away from it.

    This is not what anyone wanted to happen, but the moment the first teacher in the maabara cut off the first pair of payot on a Teimani child, it was the end for the medine. Now the only question is how to save the Jews living there from continued physical and spiritual destruction.

    #649140

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    The sinah expressed here is beyond belief. Kilobear, it is obvious that you are Itzik_S who once said he would not be posting any more. (I guess under the same name.) You had mentioned that you were disgruntled at the state because of some classification for army purposes which gave you difficulty. I feel bad about that, but at least realize that everything you write is through this prism of a negiah which you have.

    Those who hate the state, please tell me who you hate? The doctor who takes care of your child? The nurse who greets him with a smile? The farmer who grows your food? The truckdriver who brings it to the store? The storekeeper? The linesman who repairs electrical cables? The street cleaner? The scientists who work at developing cures, defense systems, desalinaization plants, agricultural methods? The mailman? The garbage man? The soldier who gives up all comforts to protect you at all hours of the day and night? THESE PEOPLE ARE THE MEDINAH. The medinah is not some abstract entity. It is people like you and me who work hard, want to put food on their table and be matzliach so the country can be matzliach. They are our beloved brethren who were moser nefesh to build this beautiful country which allows more Torah learning and has more shuls than at any time in the history of golus. They will go to any ends to rescue a Jew anywhere in the world if at all possible, and will openly welcome any Jew who needs a place of refuge. They took in the Russian Jews, the Ethiopians, anybody who could possible be our brethren. They welcome them with a smile although they cost much money and effort to get them settled. The prime minister often goes himself to welcome planeloads of Nefesh bNefesh olim.

    The negativity expressed here is beyond comprehension. This is what the Aibershter wants, that we should hate the people who are the medinah, and think the whole world is terrible except for a few frum Jews. You made Hashem proud today, by really giving it to all those trashy lowlifes he created. How lucky you are to be in that special circle of the few on an exalted pedestal who are the virtuous, and not in the other 99% of the briyah which is trash and garbage. (Too bad Hashem had such a low success rate. Next time he will consult with you.)

    Where is your ahavas yisroel and ahavas havriyos???

    Don’t respond by saying that you love the people but just hate their state. You can’t tell an artist he is a great guy, but his work is garbage. You will have given him the worst insult possible by saying his life’s work is no good. You can’t tell the baker that his cake is horrible without insulting him personally. You can’t tell the cook that you love him, but his food is disgusting. The most important thing to a person’s well-being is to feel that he has not wasted his life in vain, but has accomplished someting useful for the world. This is elementary kochos hanefesh. And the truth is that these people have accomplished beyond any comprehension. They went in to a barren dessert surrounded by vicious enemies and they numbered only 600,000, and turned it into a thriving and happy country where yidden of all types have everything they need. The land brings forth its fruit to its childen who have returned. Ein lcha ketz miguleh mizeh. The gemara says anybody who lives in EY and speaks Hebrew has a chelek in olam haba.

    I simply do not have the time or energy to argue with this raw hatred. Those who want to see the good in everything will see it. Those who don’t want to will not be able to. Mi haish hachafetz chaim ohev yomim liros tov. Who wants to live a long life, and loves more days to see good (*IN OTHER PEOPLE*). Ntzor lshoncho mera… That is the trick.

    #649141

    “I’m just saying they have a choice. They choose to live in the country of Israel. Pretend it’s being governed by non Jews. What’s the difference.

    Many of them lived there before the zionists came. Let the zionists move out. And even those that didn’t, like I said earlier, have a halachic right to live there regardless of who is in brute control.

    I was always taught that if we do the wrong thing the “land will kick us out”.

    That principle may apply in chutz l’aretz, but halachicly not in E.Y. “

    Wait a minute… there was a government change in the land. You cant just tell the “zionists move out” just like you cant say to the Americans to move out of America because the mexicans and the indians were here first. they are in control of the land and run the government. please start quoting the source that you say explains how we have a right to live there regardless of who’s in control. if we are in golus, we dont deserve to live there. we dont get to have our theocracy.

    I cant understand what you mean about “The Land kicking us out” refering to chutz laaretz… it was specifically referring to E”Y when people are sinning, including SINAS CHINAM…

    #649142

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    No one is throwing true ahavas Yisroel away. But when there is rishus, one must speak out about it, not just passively accept it. You forget that Chabad is in the forefront of demonstrating every time the memsheles zadoin puts Jews in jeopardy. (I happen to disagree with demonstrations other than learning and saying tehillim in public because kol kol Yaakov and the moment you start with demonstrations you end up with yadayim and not kol).

    Sadly, there are those in Chabad today who have no standards and are acting more and more like Carlebach freaks. Those are the ones whose Kool-Aid I don’t drink; they are superficial and understand little other than a few slogans and quotes. That is not ahavas yisroel, that is accepting everyone’s deviant behavior and diluting the message of Torah so as not to offend someone who is in any case offensive. Frankly, but for one thing that I can never accept, I am very drawn to Reb Aron of Satmar-KJ at this point. However, that one thing makes it impossible for me to be his Chossid.

    Turkish laws are the laws of a foreign power, not an illegitimate Jewish government. If they had allowed Jews access to the mekoimois hakedoishim and I had been alive then and wanted to go, I would have obeyed them as I obeyed Turkish laws in Istanbul when I was there.

    However, the secular government in EY is an abomination which defiles the Land, and as such I cannot support it in any way.

    If ONE prime minister would stand up and say G-d gave us the land, I might feel differently. A Torah government won’t happen until Moshiach comes and I don’t expect that either. But the governments and the state are G-dless by definition.

    As such, I cannot in any good conscience pay one agora of tax to that government, not that I even enjoy visiting there or do not have access to kivrei tzaddikim elsewhere. When I was last there and had an argument with the incompetent clerk who mishandled my VAT refund, I made it very clear that “I do not recognize your government and I do not pay taxes here”. Those few shekels of refund meant nothing to me and I don’t even know if it was credited to my card in the end. It was the principle.

    #649143

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    ROTFL – classification for army purposes?

    LOL the only one I would want would be 24 – exempt on (usually ideological) grounds. I think you are confusing me with a friend of mine who wanted to serve but was denied because he said outright he was a Chabadnik and wanted to mekarev Yidden in the army.

    It is possible to hate an ideology without hating a person. Do we hate the simple Jew who goes to a Reform tembel? No. Far from it. I pity him and want to bring him closer, but if I can’t or I am not the one to do it I leave him be. Do I hate Eric Yoffie? Not sure. Do I despise the memory of Stephen Wise of less than blessed memory? You bet! Do I despise reform ideology. Absolutely. Do I look the other way when I pass a reform tembel? Yes, I do. The reform tembel is the state, Eric Yoffie is its present leader, and reform ideology is secular Zionism.

    Now, should I post my recipe for Ukrainian lye cake in the recipes section? Does anyone really want to experience directly what a destructive force does even when the rest of the equation is beneficial?

    #649144

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    And the Russians and Ethiopians, sorry to say, are NOT my brethren. You know how many goyim the medine took in? The best of the Russians are back here for the opportunities.

    The Ethiopians, sorry to say, are NOT Jews. Go do some research. Rav Avigdor Miller ZYA had a few choice words to say about that tragedy.

    #649145

    Josh31
    Participant

    The Jews that became irreligious a few generations ago in Europe would have anyways without “Zionism”. They would have married non-Jews, perhaps been baptized and would have fully assimilated in their host countries. What “Zionism” accomplished was keeping a sense of national identity and kept them from intermarrying.

    Jews that abandon G-d but not the Jewish people can return in future generations as many have. Intermarriage is the point of “no return”.

    A600KiloBear: Some of what you say is pure “Debat HaAretz” and must be protested.

    Your statement that begins with “The medine is” is pure Sheker (lying) and denigration of the Jewish People and Land. There are many facts to contradict that statement. I will point out two: Israel has strong high tech industry that is respected throughout the world. It is very likely the microprocessor that your computer runs on was developed in Israel. Many of the medicines used here in the US come from Israel.

    #649146

    chaverim
    Member

    squeak & A600KiloBear have put it beautifully.

    hss: I DID quote it. See my reference to the Ran above. It is very explicit. EVERY Jew has an absolute RIGHT to live in E.Y. regardless of the regime in charge. Oh, and there is another halacha that Jews aren’t permitted to control E.Y. prior to Mashiach. (See the ???? ??????? in Mesechtes Kesubos.)

    #649147

    feivel
    Participant

    a600

    as far as im concerned Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l, is one of the very few sources of pure Emes today

    i would be curious to hear a summary of what he had to say about the ethiopians

    but if you think the matter would incite ugly comments here as a response, then i withdraw my request.

    #649148

    cantoresq
    Member

    Finally, please read Amos Elon’s biography of Herzl to find out what disease he had and how it affected his brain. That is probably how he came up with all the mishegoss in Altneuland, some of which is beyond fantasy and full of megalomania.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    I really have no interest in participating in a discussion on the Jewish validity of Zionism. Those who appreciaite it, can derive the satisfaction of that appreciation. Those who don’t can do likewise. But I do want to point out that syphilis is a highly communicable disease. Not long before Herzl’s birth, the only mohel in Vienna was diagnosed with the disease, which led to the Chatham Sofer’s controversial psak that metzitza b’peh can be fulfilled with a pipette as it is not a necessary component of milah. If one wants to assume that Herzl contracted this disease via illicit actions, in the absence of evidence, then why not assume the same about the hapless mohel?

    #649149

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Chaverim, is the shalosh shevuos a halacha or an aggadeta? Hint, try to find it in the Rif, Rosh, Ran, Mordechai, Rambam, Tur or Shulchan Oruch. (You can’t.) But you can find it in the chiddushei *aggados* of the Maharsha. Incidentally, Reb Meir Simcha paskened that they became null and void with the Balfour Declaration, since we were not rebelling against the Umos. Many say that even without that they became null and void with the holocaust, since the last is a shevua on the Umos shelo yishtabdu bahem byisroel yoser midai, and they did not keep their end of the deal.

    Practically speaking, where in the world did you expect the Jews to go at the time of the holocaust and the survivors when nobody was letting them in anywhere. When it is pikuach nefesh, you don’t ask shailos.

    #649150

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Re Herzl: Please read Amos Elon’s biography. It details how Herzl OLBM led his life and how this led to his infection and early demise. I would not have mentioned this if I had not read the whole book carefully. I do not go out of my way to post potentially lurid information on a Torah site. The mohel probably contracted it via just that – metzitza bapeh, which explains the need for the tshuva. Very few Viennese Jews were so far removed from Judaism that they eschewed milah, and many babies were born with all kinds of bacterial infections LA until antibiotics were discovered. In fact I remember all too well when there was much fear of mohalim contracting HIV as well as rumors about one or two who may have, L”A. We are not choished bekesherim. And we are not metaher shrotzim.

    Re: R’ Avigdor Miller: I need to do full research before I post any detail but indeed I do fear it will lead to more trouble than it is worth.

    Re: The EY hi tech industry: India is way ahead of EY and all that industry is for the most part is cheap R&D for ideas developed elsewhere. The reason any chip is developed in EY (or India, or here in Ukraine for that matter) is because bosses in the US give workers in EY orders to develop a chip. EY’s best and brightest and most ambitious have had to and still have to emigrate or at least invest abroad to succeed.

    LOL regarding the medicines. With the exception of the MS treatment copaxone (Teva) which has been superseded, most EY pharmaceutical products are cheap generics, made in factories that Teva and Taro and Agis have purchased abroad. Indeed if you receive a generic RX in the US it may be made by a plant owned by EY giant Teva – but it was not developed in EY and not even made there. It could be from New Jersey or Ireland among other places.

    I used Teva RX strength ibuprofen once in Moscow; not sure if it was from their factories in EY or Hungary. The quality and finish of the pills was amazingly low, lower than that of the local Ukrainian product I now keep around for emergencies. Unlike a cheap Ukrainian pill, these things were grainy, and dissolved in the back of my throat leaving a terrible aftertaste. I was shocked, but I can’t say I was surprised, as I am very familiar with the callous indifference of EY firms to consumer needs and quality control issues.

    #649151

    Feif Un
    Participant

    chaverim, doesn’t it say that Jews can’t take control of EY by force before Mashiach comes? They didn’t get EY by force, it was given peacefully by a UN vote. After it was established, it was defended numerous times, but it wasn’t initially conquered by force.

    #649152

    “I DID quote it. See my reference to the Ran above.”

    I looked at your quote…

    “Can you please say where this is a “right” and not a privilege?

    In various places. One of them if my memory is correct is a Ran I think in Mesechtes Nedarim.”

    Um, that is not as explicit as you imply. “if my memory is correct”. well, you dont seem so sure about it. where in nedarim, maybe quote it for the rest of us? I have a pet peeve- its called citations. maybe its just leftover from high school/college….

    #649153

    Jothar
    Member

    Herzl’s first remedy to solve the Anti-Semitism problem was mass conversion to Christianity. Then came the Uganda plan. Israel was #3. Neither Herzl nor Ben Gurion viewed the state as having any holiness. This isn’t to say that Israel is a maaseh satan. Clearly there is something divine going on here, and the Maharal (Gevuros Hashem ch. 18) seems to confirm it. But the same Mahara”l says that there has to be a physical country, devoid of spirituality, before the spiritual state can blossom from it. The current regime is no different from the kindom of Alexander Janneus (Yannai Hamelech). Jews lived in Israel then, but they respected their gedolim more than him. They also didn’t call Yannai’s kingdom Reishis Tzemichas.

    #649154

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Instead of opening their own doors to survivors, the anti-Semites of Europe and the US threw them to the Zionists, in the hope that the Arabs would finish off what the Nazis YMS started.

    That was the reason for the UN vote – no one wanted the Jews around, and they figured the Arabs would make short work of the Zionist state. For the sake of the JEWS and not because of any kedusha of the Zionist experiment, there were nissim and what the reshoim wanted did not occur. Then in 1967, we saw nissim geluim – and the Zionists basically told Hashem, no, this was kochi veotzem yadi and we will conduct ourselves as the nations of the world. Then came 1973 and the end of the invincible Zionists, followed by the Camp David tragedy where Sadat took away EY energy independence and the idea of autonomy for the artificial palestinian people started. This is why I can have no respect for that experiment.

    But the real tragedies were the forced refugee situation in Morocco and Iraq, and the unnecessary airlift of Jews from Teiman.

    And keep in mind that even if the only innocent Yid the Zionists ever killed was Yaakov deHaan HYD (forget the Altalena for now as it was internecine warfare between Zionists), then they have killed one Jew more than Ahmadinejad has so far.

    #649155

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    My problem with it is that the governments are turning it into a maaseh Soton by destroying Jews, Judaism and true ahavas eretz Yisroel. This is because while all agree that the state has no holiness, the mechanisms of the state basically do not recognize the holiness of the Land or of the Jewish people and in fact desecrate and denigrate that holiness.

    #649156

    chaverim
    Member

    as far as im concerned Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tz’l, is one of the very few sources of pure Emes today

    i would be curious to hear a summary of what he had to say about the ethiopians

    feivel, google: rabbi avigdor miller ethiopia jews

    see the first response (from deiah vedibur)

    #649157

    feivel
    Participant

    thank you so much chaverim

    another sliver of Emes implanted into my mind by a wellspring of Truth.

    i will be forever grateful to Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl for opening my eyes in such profound ways

    #649158

    Jothar
    Member

    We are coming up to the 85th anniversary of the murder of Yaakov Yisroel De Haan, a chareidi activist who tried working out a peaceful resolution with the Arabs to allow the viability of the Old Yishuv without bloodshed.

    From Wikipedia:

    Nakdimon and Mayzlish were able to trace the assassin, Avraham Tehomi (1903-1990), then a businessman living in Hong Kong. Tehomi was interviewed for Israeli TV by Nakdimon and openly stated: “I have done what the Haganah decided had to be done. And nothing was done without the order of Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (who later became the second president of Israel 1952-1963)… I have no regrets because he (de Haan) wanted to destroy our whole idea of Zionism” (Nakdimon).

    #649160

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Thanks for this. I knew the assassin confessed – but I did not know that he was such a great Zionist that he lived his life in Hong Kong. (unless he was a Mossad operative there which would not surprise me).

    De Haan was actually a harmless, quixotic character, who was not a threat to anyone in any way.

    #649161

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Regarding the Dehaan affair. What I know about it is from Guardian of Jerusalem, the Artscroll biography of Reb Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTL. Even in a book obviously written from an anti-zionist perspective, you can clearly see that he was very possibly a mored bmalchus and a traitor and would have sabotaged the entire state.

    While the Zionist leaders were going around the world speaking with all kinds of dignitaries and governments trying to get a state set up and making all the zillions of arrangements that needed to be made (remember my mashal about the shul dinner multiplied by 10 million for the difficulty in creating a state), Dehaan was about to go abroad and tell certain govts that they should not pay attention to the Zionist representatives. He could literally have destroyed any chance for getting recognition and assistance.

    I am not saying one way or another whether the murder was halachically correct (if in fact it was committed by Jews), but you can certainly see how he was a thorn in their eyes, and how serious a threat his meddling was.

    Regarding the Altalena, I always thought the since Yitzchak Rabin was (I believe) one of those who fired on the ship of fellow Jews, midah kneged midah, he was murdered by a fellow Jew. However, I now understand better why this happened. Before the state, the Haganah and Irgun and other groups all were fighting the British in their own ways. It was like the wild west with no chain of command. However, once the state was set up, it was agreed that there would be one Tzahal and everybody would follow orders and subordinate themselves to the Tzahal. However, this ship was bringing in private heavy weapons to one of the groups (Irgun?) and they were planning to do whatever they felt like with those arms and not necessarily follow orders from the new IDF.

    This was intolerable to the Haganah that it would be a free-for-all, without discipline, so they sank the ship to show that now there were rules for weapons. (I am not justifying this, just presenting the rationale.)

    Lhavdil elef havdalos, it might be roughly like the situation in Lebanon, where Hezbollah has their own private arms and rockets, totally separate from the Lebanese army. They on their own started the second Lebanon war in 2006. One cannot have a state within a state without causing chaos. Again, I am not saying what was right, as I was not there and am not a historian, I am just presenting a point of view.

    #649162

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    Mored bemalchus? From an Old Yishuv perspective, the malchus were the Turks and then the British. His mission (which I do not believe was taken seriously by anyone except the paranoid Zionists) was one of pikuach nefesh in the minds of his sponsors, and was therefore construed as similar to that of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai’s contacts with the Roman emperor that resulted in the “kerem beYavne” (NOT to be confused with the present hesder yeshiva of that name!)

    DeHaan was a strange character, and I believe he was chosen only because he spoke several European languages.

    As such, his murder was pure rishus, the slaughter of a truly innocent individual who posed no credible threat to anyone. Hate to use secular references, but it was a clear case of “killing a mockingbird” (if you don’t get the reference Google it because I am not a secular lit teacher LOL).

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