May 25, 2016 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #617753
A leading Zionist rabbi has weighed in on the dispute over hareidi men’s enlistment to the IDF, and said that yeshiva students should not make other men stand guard over them as they study.
In his weekly column on the Hebrew site of Arutz Sheva, Rabbi Yaakov Ariel, the Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan, compared the debate to the midrash on the dispute between Moses and the artisan Bezalel, whose story is in this week’s Torah reading.
Moses wanted the Holy Ark to be prepared first, and the Holy Sanctuary later. Bezalel told him that the Ark cannot be fashioned before there is a Sanctuary to place it in.
The same debate is at the root of the dispute on Torah study and enlistment to the military, the rabbi explained. On the one hand, there is no spiritual or physical existence for the nation without Torah study. “But there is no dispute that one needs the Sanctuary as well; the frame,” he said.
“One thing depends on the other. A Sanctuary without Torah is not a Sanctuary, but Torah without a Sanctuary is also an abstract Torah that has no existence.”May 25, 2016 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1153032
When every segment – chareidi, dati leumi, chiloni – starts sharing the Torah burden equally, we can talk.May 25, 2016 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1153033aitnParticipant
194May 25, 2016 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1153034popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I have opined before, that of course we’ll join the army. When it’s time to fight the chilonim.May 25, 2016 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1153035american_yerushalmiParticipant
Citing Rabbi Ariel’s opinions when addressing chareidim is pointless, because they (the chareidim) will not forsake the da’as Torah of those that they consider the gedolei hador. To change the attitudes and practices of the chareidim, you have to persuade the gedolei Torah to change their minds. A formidable task at best. Nothing else has the slightest chance of success. You can post your ideas on a chareidi web site until your fingers wear out the keyboard. If the gedolei Torah disagree with you, you are wasting your time.May 25, 2016 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1153036
Rav Shteinman was at some point in favor of some service for Charedim.May 25, 2016 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1153037akupermaParticipant
Since this “Zionist rabbi” really wants the Hareidim to make their own security arrangements. It wouldn’t involve knocking on Palestinian’s doors in the middle of the night to drag people away, or shooting people, or seizing property. It would involve making political concessions – focusing on a Torah-oriented Jewish autonomy in return for recognizing Palestinian sovereignity in matters that don’t affect us. Politically, the “ikar” difference between hareidim and zionists is whether it is necessary for Jews to rule over the goyim (something that is totally unacceptable to Muslims). The last thing a zionist rabbi would ever want is for the hareidim to be encouraged to cut their deal with the Arabs.May 25, 2016 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1153038
Let’s remember who’s really protecting who here…May 26, 2016 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1153039
Who would happen first
The chreadim refusing to share their learning until every learns
The Chilionim and the D’L refuse to give government benefits including police protection, Passports, government handouts until the charedim go to the Army?May 26, 2016 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1153040
DY: That is an absurd statement. There is no quota for Talmud Torah. Hakadosh Baruch Hu expects the best of our abilities, nothing more and nothing less. There is no “burden” of Torah study in the same sense as the army. It’s not like HKBH expects X Blatt per day or X hours per day and if He gets less then He punishes us. This kind of assumption is a gross violation of several basic principles, most notably Echad HaMarbeh… There are excellent reasons to say that Chareidim shouldn’t join the army. What you said isn’t one of them. What you said was a level of silliness and Amaratzus that I have learned not to expect from you.May 26, 2016 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1153041
“Rav Shteinman was at some point in favor of some service for Charedim.”
That uis a gross misstatement.
You have to get your “facts” somewhere else other than nonsense posted on silly blogs.May 26, 2016 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1153042
“Who would happen first
The chreadim refusing to share their learning until every learns”
The Chrain would first stain the gefilte fish unless first mixed with mayonnaise.May 26, 2016 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1153043
Sam, you totally missed my point.May 26, 2016 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1153044newbeeMember
I feel like this has been discussed dozens of times on here already no?May 26, 2016 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1153045
nisht, R’ Shteinman was indeed in favor of Chareidim who aren’t learning well serving in the IDF if they could do so in an environment that would allow them to mantain their Chareidi lifestyle and practices. This was the idea behind Nachal Chareidi. However, when it became apparent that NAchal Chareidi was not Chareidi-friendly, R’ Shteinman stopped supporting bochrim going there.May 26, 2016 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1153046JosephParticipant
No, Rav Shteinman was never in favor of any such thing as chareidim serving in the Israeli army, despite any blog reports that spread that falsehood. Any he bears no responsibility for the creation of the so-called Nachal Chareidi, which is 80% non-Chareidi.May 26, 2016 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1153047
MW, who says? What is Chareidi-friendly? Pleasing the askanim who are the real decision makers as they control what the gedolim hear and whom they see?May 26, 2016 8:25 am at 8:25 am #1153048SoftwordsParticipant
Assuming that Avi K’s quotes are 100% accurate my response to that Rabbi would be the following:
The Beis HaMikdash was destroyed because of Sinat Chinam. It will only be built through Ahavat Chinum. This is the Nisayon of our Dor. When a soldier with Yirat Shamiyim and Ahavat Chinum is placed to protect others he does not consider whether those people are Chareidi, DL, Mesorti, or Chiloni. All he considers is that they are Jews that need to be protected.
The test of this Dor is Ahavat Chinam. This Rav has failed miserably!!!May 26, 2016 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1153049
I will have to agree that the Charedi population doesnt really care what a D’L Rabbi says. Im not really sure what it will take to change things.
Im not even sure that cutting off benefits will really make a differnce.May 26, 2016 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1153050
The issue was not the spelling.May 26, 2016 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1153051
He was not opposed to certain bochurim who were really not being successful to the extent that they were at risk joining Nachal Chareidi, as it was the understood to be set up.
His shitta was different in that he agreed that there were LIMITED situations where one can join the IDF.
However he never suggested that that All Chareidim should be responsible for some service (meaning army or ????? ?????) which is what ZD suggested.
Nor did he ever say that ??? ???? was a ??????? for anyone.
Which is completely different than what ZD attitudes to R AL Shteinman.May 26, 2016 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1153052
What about Tikun Olam?
That usually goes hand in hand with the crowd that insists the Gedolim are controlled by the askanim and are incapable of independent understanding and decision making.
Invariably those who make those claims are those who are big fans of ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????.May 26, 2016 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1153053
Nisht,what can I do if it is true? In fact, Rav Simcha Kook said explicitly that Gafni lied to Rav Eliashiv in order to get him to agree to join Sharon’s coalition and insure the expulsion from Gush Katif. In any case, it is very well known that rabbanim give different pesakim to different people. Thus, quoting what rabbanim say in public does not mean that it is set in stone for everyone. I am sure that if a kid is in danger of joining the shababnikim because he is not made for full-time learning any Chareidi rav would tell him to go into the IDF in some Chareidi framework, learn a profession and get a job. As for those who really are learning, if they are serious about also contributing why not at least dedicate their learning to the success of IDF? They will also receive the benefit of Torah lishma. In any case, the tzibbor already has half their merit by subsidizing them.May 26, 2016 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1153054
Giving different psakim to different people does not in anyway mean that the gedolim are being controlled by the askanim. (Your words). In fact, it would indicate quite the opposite.
I rest my case.May 26, 2016 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1153055
I heard a story about Rav Moshe (I could have the details slightly wrong) and Rav Shlomo Zalman
He make a Psak and wanted to know what Rav Shlomo Zalman’s opinion was on the matter. He sent a letter to Rav Shlomo Zalman for an answer. he did not receive one. Some time later he met up with Rav Shlomo Zalman and asked him why he did no reply to his letter and Rav Shlomo Zalman said he didnt remember receiving it. After some investigations Rav Shlomo Zalman found out that an askan had intercepted the letter and did not give it to Rav Shlomo ZalmanMay 26, 2016 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1153056
nisht: For the most part, Gedolim don’t release statement. Many times (not always, maybe not even often, but it certainly happens) someone will want a certain statement and craft a question in order to get the answer they want. I’ve seen it happen. Or, sometimes, people will just outright lie about what a Gadol said because they trust that no one will check it.May 26, 2016 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1153057
That is not what Avi K. said.
He said the Gedolim are being controlled.
If you question the source, then it is up to you to verify. I’ve done that. With R Chaim Kanievsky. I asked him directly.May 26, 2016 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1153058
The gedolim have better things to do than be constantly asked by a nudnick if they said what they were quoted as sayingMay 26, 2016 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1153059
The gedolim have better things to do than answer shailos?
A nudnik would ask steam to verify. However if it is something that applies to you it is completely appropriate to ask.May 26, 2016 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1153060Israeli ChareidiParticipant
Seems everyone, including the rabbi, missed the boat here.
The chareidi cities actually hire independent private security companies to patrol and secure the city 24/7/365. The army is nowhere to be seen.
Each citizen pays a separate fee on their municipal bill to cover this extra expense.May 26, 2016 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1153061jacklMember
To DY ever think for a minute that those that are learned in the ways of our Torah should make the first move for a fellow jew.
Seems many in the hareidi world have expectations of entitlement.
Showing some appreciation to that uneducated, unlearned chiloni soldier who puts his….on the line for you or saying thank you is not an aveirah.
Maybe in your world it is… agree or diagreeMay 26, 2016 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1153062
This discussion was not about expressing appreciation.May 26, 2016 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1153063
Showing appreciation for those who learn Torah and keep the world going is not an aveirah, either. And neither is talking respectfully to somebody you disagree with.May 27, 2016 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1153064
nisht: Oh, he was certainly wrong too. I just think you went too far in your response.May 27, 2016 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1153066
IC, just because they are not seen does not mean that they are not there. Security companies only patrol within the yishuv but the IDF patrols the outside.
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