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going on a tangent here, there are those that believe the psak that is assur only if you smoke for a lengthly amount of time, where the dangers are absolute. stopping after a short while, is inconclusive to cause major harm to the smoker, although you can become addicted and continue to smoke an entire lifetime it is within reach to stop therefore only when the smoker decides to smoke all his life or actually smokes to the point where it in conclusive to cause major hard to the body that is when you are being oiver.
i have said my opinion, im not here on a marathon, this is the basic idea for more info stop the next yeshiva guy that you see smoking (make sure he’s a mature one or don’t bother)
valid points Health,oomis1105
no i will not quote names, experience tells me you will just lose the respect for them. i dont think if i tell you that R ELYASHIV says its muttar you will agree, your response will be, he is ill informed.
also the psak has nothing to do how dangerous it is it has to do with the specific guidelines of the halachah.
i ask you why is it so important that it be assur? you had some very good points. smoking should be stopped regardless of its halachaic status
oh! how so unfortunate. you ponder the issue, then conclude with the facts that you know.
let me remind you that before i posted R MOSHE feinstein psak about smoking is was common misconception that everybody agrees its “ASSUR MIN HATORAH”.
now i used sports as an example of people who are uneducated in hashkafa. whether it is agreed upon by the vast majority of gedolim today? probably not .but again recognize that there is another opinion. if you dont like those yeshivs don’t send your child there all i ask is to respect the other side , especially if your not fully educated in the matter
(THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT SPORTS, SMOKING OR OUR CHINACH SYSTEM, ITS THE PEOPLES DISTRUST THEY SHOW TOWARDS IT, the system is by no means perfect. but involving haskafa in the argument requires vast knowledge and many years of studying so unless you have that, display caution)
yes not every yeshiva is like your sons. you (and hopefully your son) decided what yeshiva was the place for him to shtieg. but for many your sons yeshiva is not the “place”
they need a different setting.
i therefore conclude that camparing one yeshiva to another is like comparing a skinny person to a fat one. they just have different genetic makeup!
ps (of course if the hanhalah doesn’t allow they will hide when they do it, like done in many places.but i dont know what yeshiva your son attends and its very possible that no one in that place smokes, good for him. and good for you.)
NO IM NOT NITPICKING. MY POINT IS PEOPLE BLAME YESHIVAS, MECHANCHIM , AND RABBAIM HOW THEY RUN THE SYSTEM. without having the proper hashkafas themselves this is just a example (another misconception is that smoking is assur min hatorah )
yes i have said more than once, smoking is a bad habit ,it should be stopped. but the blasting of the bachurim that do it ,and yeshivas that dont do enough to stop.the false claims under the isurrim that are being done. and not recognizing the proper way to run yesheivas (ex. promote sports in yeshiva) it is blown out of proportion by people who decide for themselves what hashkafa is all about
fine but dont try to justify WHY people smoke. lets just deal with it…and you know, just because something IS, does NOT mean it HAS to be!
OF COURSE. I WAS SAYING WHY YESHIVOS DONT BAN IT
And do you not think it is high time that Yeshivahs started to recognize that ball-playing is NOT a bad thing?
i have been brought up the same way. playing sports is a healthy and beneficial way to spend ones free time.
but dont start selling your haskafa to everyone else , everybody has their source for haskafa, and not every time is it agreed upon.
many roshi yeshivas from the previous generation, absolutely forbid!!! their bachurim to play (yes they promoted walks and other forms of exercise)
THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT HASKAFA AND HALACHA IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE! ITS A WELL WRITTEN AND DOCUMENTED FROM PREVIOUS GEDOLIM.
MAYBE ITS IMPORTANT TO DO SOME RESEARCH, BROADEN OUR HORIZONS AND ONLY THAN START POSTING OUR HASKAFA
to bombmaniac ,oomis1105
correct, smoking does not equal chashav .didn’t say or imply that ,all i said was that among their “peers” they will not be the same “chashuv”
wrong or right ,thats the system,and thats what we respond to.
“granted…we all know it happens my point is that it shouldnt, and that there is no need to try and justify stupidity. and oomis is right…sports is a very healthy and beneficial outlet”
im not justifying the habit. im justifying the mindset of a bochur and why yeshivos are run the way they are
playing ball will lower your status (as apposed to not playing ball, obviously) as a chashuv bachur this is a fact among the top 15 yeshivas in america. we the bachurim (like the rest of the world)are dealing with our ego and facts.
“they dont like being controlled…i see…but they keep 613 commandments…which arent controlling at all, i see the logic. as for the grown up part, that is just childish.”
TRUE BUT ANY MECHANECH DEALS WITH THE FACTS WHETHER THEY ARE CHILDISH OR NOT
“you still havent named one benefit to smoking except the idea of it being an outlet which is ridiculous because there are many more beneficial outlets out there.”
firstly the very fact that they want to smoke makes it a better outlet than anything else.
(why they want it so much i dont know, but thats the facts)
secondly what is an idea of another outlet that allows them to retain the status of a masmid and yeshivish bachur???
LET ME MAKE MYSELF CLEAR! SMOKING IS A TERRIBLE HABIT.NO ROSH YESHIVA REBBE OR RAV WILL TELL YOU ANY DIFFRENT!!
im just saying that many people use the halachic venue ,and are terribly misinformed. they don’t care if its assur .they would hate it just as much if it were muttar. its a form of attack, its being done without thinking. they are are not here to listen just to sell what they have to say if anybody doesn’t accept he’s WRONG!!
face it there is a flip side to the coin.
ajbrisker – you are so right. but why are boys going off the deep end when they can’t smoke? why can’t they handle a little turbulence??
your right they should be able deal with that. the reason they get upset is they don’t like being controlled any more that they have to be. they think its cool and grownup they are dying to do it (that is what makes it an outlet ,now im not proposing to allow smoking in yeshiva. but theoretically if it would be allowed it would take away the drama of smoking)
they are also defending questionable actions.
although the idea here is whether there are any benefits in smoking!
and the benefits people claim cigarettes have is greatly outweighed by the negatives”.
TRUS, but to deny that its not an outlet,is simply false. in your yeshiva its maybe different but im in the system right now its something to do. its a social event…
PS IM REFERRING TO BAIS MEDRASH SMOKERS .HIGH SCHOOL SMOKING IS DIFFERENT ON MANY LEVELS
granted. they should even stop one they have started its unwise, foolish and unhealthy.
well so is claiming to know more halacha than respected poskim.
yes a quarter of a century many things where different.most definitely for the better but back than they also did questionable ideas. find me a rosh yeshiva that allows his talmidim to go to a major sporting event, well 30 years ago many did many roshi yeshiva themselves have gone as children to these events. they where halachicly questionable back then so yes they where better but still needed there outlets
being around many bachruim that smoke gives me the opportunity to introduce the outside world to the reality of what goes on in a smoking bachurs life
with utmost certainty i can say that at least 85% or more of smoking bachurim will have stopped by the time they are in married if these factors are prevalent
1. they are being “matzliach in yeshiva
2. they don’t have any smokers in there immediate family
3. (probably most important)there parents knew and accepted the fact that they where smokers therefore giving them the opportunity to constantly gave them the courage and support necessary for them to stop. as opposed to those who constantly hid it from there parents.
i therefore encourage parents to be open with there child about smoking. and most important allow him to be open with you!
granted the pool and goish music is only by some (and yes by those some ,is it beneficial to ban smoking with the possibility of the bad “hanhagos” that may follow?)
but on the overall for each individual its a form of a outlet. now for some that means not using other questionable outlets, “FOR OTHERS ITS PLAIN HEFKAIRUS”, while for others it will give them the necessary outlet needed to be able to sit and learn the sedarim in a better fashion.
HASHEM IS EVERYWHERE
allow me to explain, while i disagree with much that AGUG has posted. i would be careful say “its assur , its written straight in the torah”. as much as we would love the torah to agree with our opinion. we cannot decide for ourselves,halacha says what it has to say the torah stes the guidelines for the halacha,not us. not every bad habit,trait or practice is muttar or assur .it may be bad middos, arrogance carelessness,but you cant put your own ideas into halacha! we therefore consult our rabbanim
PS just to quote you. R MOSHE FEINSTEIN discusses the dangers of smoking, and says that its muttar
WHILE ITS A DISCUSSION AMONG TODAYS POSKIM IF THAT PS’AK STILL STANDS. CAUTION IS ALWAYS URGED WHEN PLAYING WITH FIRE!!!(PUN INTENDED)
I have a good friend a heavy smoker he tells me all the time that he regrets starting. you wont find a happy smoker nobody wants to smoke they smoke because there addicted. right or wrong is not the issue we are talking about people who can’t stop if they were able to they would. all smokers start because they think they wont get addicted.stopping young people from smoking is virtuous even to the heaviest smokers. But being judgmental towards
smokers is thouhgtless and borders arrogance. no one appreciates it
wonderful theory but why cant you settle for a machlokes haposkim?
do you have any idea what would go on in many yeshivas if smoking was banned. they would need to turn non-kosher ideas into bain hasedarim outlets. is it better to have our children hanging out playing pool ,listening to goish music ect. or is it better for them to sit and smoke over some “hock”.
i think that by many yeshiva guys its a matter of the better evil
so what i leave it to the honorary readers to give their opinion on the better evil