ashergg

You’re words make sense ( אין גוזריו גזירה לגזירה)all the way till the end where you say “it’s not good to be extra frum” without explaining.

Foa, this topic has gotten attention. Second, I think that if the basic level of tznius is preached and accepted, there should not be an issue of pritzus in offices.
And like hny wrote, I know plenty of offices with very strict separation rules, and I think this post is the doesn’t know what goes on in the real world kinda post.

Aside from the point of the braisah, In addition, I think the only way for a system to stay strong and function is if it operates with capitolist values.

@nevuah exactly, so like i said, this is an old argument with 2 legit sides and one of those sides resonate with you better, so now it became the truth and the world should run that way.

Let me reiterate. 2 of our great sages had a disagreement if a torah institution should have an elitist acceptance system or it shouldn’t. I know this text is old (I’m not sure why that matters, people haven’t change), but i think it’s about the idea you presented.
I could say what my natural wiring tells me is right, but i don’t think it’s relevant when trying to solves a societal dispute. I do have the right to implement my belief on my personal institution….

@always ask Why? I’d say the opisite

תנא: אותו היום סלקוהו לשומר הפתח וניתנה להם רשות לתלמידים ליכנס. שהיה רבן גמליאל מכריז ואומר: כל תלמיד שאין תוכו כברתו — לא יכנס לבית המדרש. ההוא יומא איתוספו כמה ספסלי… אמר רבי יוחנן: פליגי בה אבא יוסף בן דוסתאי ורבנן, חד אמר: איתוספו ארבע מאה ספסלי, וחד אמר: שבע מאה ספסלי

This argument is deeper and older then you.

@nevuah let me clarify. You keep getting caught up in specific lines i write and veiw then as seperate ideas instead of reading the context I laid out.
If one is an athiest, he chv”sh believes that the world evolved from a mix of energies, why are morals important? human consciousness and emotions just evolved into existance without any purpose. One could argue that even so, for the world function people must act morally, but if the world didn’t come about for a reason, for a purpose, rather if it wasn’t created, then one has no obligation. There is no system to obligate, there is nothing. This is what i meant that morals, which are logical human senses of right/wrong, good/bad are things that exist within each human but are not the purpose itself.
Hashem created the world, gave people a brain and morals. He gave that to them because he created the world, with a purpose, so the people become godly, close to hashem through exersizing their free will. Choice is not valuable if there is no logic which is moral direction. Animals could make choices, the could physically choose, but there is no significance to their choices, because they execute upon instinct.
It is only inheritley important to be a kind person if the person was created, with reason, with intent.
You take one line out of the context and blow up. You should read more thoroughly.
Now, when a person lives morally without believing, there is significance to that, because morals were created by the creator so people could sense what’s right, so it is b’cheftza a navigation that leads humans in doing the right thing, but it is not the purpose itself. The purpose is to become more godly and to be moral and grow morally to become godly, which is the ultimate purpose of creation.
And btw, you still didn’t answer why hashem gave us 613 commandments if the being a moral human is the purpose.

@nevuah You’re turning this into one of your convos about fundimental beliefs and i won’t fall for it this time. You and i both agree that schools are different from each other, family culture\beliefs and children vary too. There is no one size fits it all. Why can’t you be a bit practical. Yes, there are some cases bad and evil people, but most people mean well and most parents do what they believe is in the best interest for them and their children and most people are not corrupt.

@the little i know The money thing is a necissary evil. Schools need money, That’s just how the world works, and those with money have more power on this world.
“Parents “might” not be judging”, ok. You have no way of measuring that, let alone fixing that. unsmart people are unsmart.

Usually, in children grow up to be quite similar to their parents. There are mishugasin in the mosdos rules, but there are lot’s of things that are legit. If a parent wants their child to have a certain type of chinnuch, the chinnuch they believe in, that have the right to do that. Now, If there’s a school that makes a strong emphasis on not accepting children from home with internet, they not only have the right to, but are obligated to. Because judaism grew so big, with so many different shades, schools tend to cater to specific types. Therefor, making the general statement that robonim should make sure every child should have a school is an ignorant statement, because rabbonim are already doing that. there are plenty of rabbonim and askanm getting kids into schools every year. The problem happens when someone wants to get his child into a school that doesn’t feel like he fits in to their crowd, and they not only have the right to do that, but in some cases are obligated to do that. Every child ends up in a school that learns torah, and if the kid wants to learn, he could. Children don’t make decisions, their parents make it for them. Children “want to education” in proportion to their parents attitude toward torah, and that’s the attitude they go to school with and that’s the attitude that get’s contributed to the school’s environment. Let’s be realistic, the families that send to the school are what create the vibe in the school and what people are seeking in schools is an education that fits their standards.

@nevuah I see you misunderstood me again. Everyone’s purpose is to serve hashem, in their individual way, with their individual power. A good example is a big company, they have a sales dept, marketing dept, billing dept etc etc, and they hire people with skill that fit their position and with them doing what they do, they contribute to the company. So, what I’m saying is that everyone is unique, no 2 people look the same, think the same or even have the same skill set. No 2 people have the same “job”, but everyone’s purpose is to serve hashem in their unique way.
And indeed, moshe, avrahom, king solomon, rus, they all served hashem, in their unique way.

Let me ask you straight, what was the world created for?
What is a person’s purpose on this world?
Ps. If you don’t answer these questions, It’s unreasonable to continue this discussion. We must establish the point of argument.

nevuah what the problem with that kinda auhtority?

@nevuah torah is divine knowladge, error is on the human end. Now, if a human consumes lot’s of torah, understands it well, and operates in alignment with the torah, i could assume they have a better understanding in the divine knowlage.
“they are autheoritivly telling you their psak” I’m not sure what you mean. I listen not because of they’re position of authority, rather they’re understanding in the torah.

@nevuah ok. skip the elitist part. Is rockland community good? my point is that this seems like a story of a boy not getting into the number 1 yeshiva on his list. this story happens everyday to lot’s of people. It does not call for a sob story, esspecially the way he delivers it.

nevuah It’s true that forced intention is in essence not intention, but that doesn’t take away from the value of better intention.
Your moshel of driving off a cliff with good intentions, is in our case, not a good one. We believe in spirituality, and in the realm of spirituality, intention is almost everything. It’s true that the dry physical action is not effected by the intention, but that’s only relavent if the action is the entirety.
And regarding your point of being a conduit, i agree that that’s the purpose, and without that intent doesn’t carry any value, but what people are trying to say, i think, is that as you were doing so you somewhat lost focus of the goal and made yourself the center and goal.

ok. so you wanna make a massive campaign telling people to have more faith. It doesn’t seem to be realistic. Listen to yourself. You have ideas that are true with no way of practically implementing them.

I’m not getting the point here. What’s he trying to bring out? This sounds like the story of a bocher not getting into mesivtah. It happens every day, and whomever it happens to is not happy about it. What’s the extra drama all about? I know a guy that knew harvard was the best place for his growth, mentally, emotionally etc etc and got rejected. I agree the circumstances aren’t lining up in the best possible way for him, but isn’t that part of life?
Maybe i missed something

Your premise is wrong. You create 2 sides, one must be taken, and a conclusion is drawn. What you do in the process is eliminate room for nuances differentiating each case from another. This tactic is commonly used in politics actually.
I don’t know the nuances in each case. it could be that misaskim was filling a void cse couldn’t fill. Details matter.
Personally, from what i heard, hatzalas nefashis opened for those who don’t get accepted to hatzalah, and in many cases, for good reasons. It could totally be a fabricated rumor, but details like these matter, and those who know shall be trusted.

Ok. You found the root. mazel tov. you still didn’t find a solution. As long as the communities are close knit and prominent you’ll have this issue. Which is what leads me to the conclusion that it is only solvable in the individual.

@nevuah intention matters, focus matters. First of all, if a person is focused on the big picture, which in our case is the purpose of life, he’s more likely to contribute more to that matter, actually, he’s essentially contributing to that matter. A person could give tzedaka because it’s practical, or he could give tzedaka because he’s acting in the ways of hashem, which is his goal and purpose. intention is everything. In addition, where focusing on the relationship one has with his creator, he could believe in his creator, or work for his creator. In our case where the purpose is the creator himself, working directly for him is much more meaningful, it’s making the creator the epicenter of his life, which means making the truth the epicenter of his life.
You say that you can’t have a relationship if your not asking for your needs etc. That’s not true. Me and you both ask for our personal needs, you ask because you want to be the gaining factor, i ask for my personal needs because hashem wants me to have a good relationship so i could fulfil his will, so i ask for a good relationship for his sake. Don’t you think if the when you’re praying for hashem it’s much for meaningful then praying for yourself?
The difference is knowing the truth and living for the truth.

It’s not an excuse, everything has a reason. You could start a topic of changing the entire dating system, but i think you’ll get a lot of backlash. As for you point, the reason there are guidelines in the dating system is for obvious reasons. The only way to test true compatibility is usually either to live with the other party, or to date them for months. Lot’s of boundaries could be broken in the process. It’s too risky.

@nevuah Let me be a bit clearer. No, we are not contradicting each other, we are on 2 different levels. let me give you an example. 2 soldiers hit Normandy on d-day. one soldier’s thoughts are that he survives, gets lots of kills. In the end, not only did that happen, he also got very good meals and a tour on eiffel tower. Another solder hits the beach with the hope that the allies should have the utmost victorious win possible, he should contribute the most to the victory and evil should fall. soldier 1 looked has a vision of individual success, soldier 2 has a grand vision. When it comes to belief and prayer, the difference is, one sees himself as the purpose and goal, and hashem helps him in ways he couldn’t imagine, so his faith and prayer is somewhat of a personal benefit and satisfaction thing. Another person views hashem as the ultimate purpose and goal, so he directs his faith and prayer toward the grand goal, the big picture, the will of hashem which is getting close to him on a personal level and signifying his name in the physical world.
Tell me if I’m clear enough.

Every sector of judaism emphasizes something else. I’m sure if a yeshivishe guy finds a person looking to become frum he’ll be mekarev him. In chabad, they emphasized mass outreach. it sounds like you feel there’s a lack of outreach in the world for some reason. is it an halachic claim?

I agree, but what you wrote is only a problem and solution on individual level. in your example of judgment, There’s no real systematic solution. If people are judging, they must stop judging. I think most of the pressure issues come from living in prominent close knit communities. I don’t think there’s a solution to the system. If someone busts, they could move to out of town. We see this idea in the rambam, when there’s a town of reshaim, move to the dessert. All the in town communities are not reshaim chv”sh, they are the nicest most beautiful communities, I’m using the idea, if an indevidual feels like the pressure of big community is effecting his avodas hashem, move to the dessert, go find a place without the pressure or whatever and settle there. now before y’all object with all the comments that it’s not practical etc etc, the rambam didn’t believe that living in the dessert is practical either, but it’s the necessary sacrifice.

@nevauh I’m not putting anything in a box, I believe that hashem runs the world with a grand plan, a bigger picture. If so, I don’t see the master plan, all i know is that I’m a character in it. I do have an individual purpose, like every moving piece in a big plan. I know that my anything not going my way, or having chance of failure is either good for me, or part of the grand plan. I do believe and i do pray, and my prayer is that it whatever the outcome is, it shall result in me delivering with utmost precision with hashems will. The difference between me and you is, you believe in hashem and measure your circumstances and pray so the results should be specifically how you measured success. I on the other hand, know that I’m a soldier in a big army, with a grand goal, and pray that whatever that goal is should succeed and i should have the koach to contribute the most of my ability to the cause. Success how I measure it is irelivant.