Forum Replies Created
“To those who oppose the forcible drafting of bnei yeshivos, how would you respond to the argument that soldiers are able to be mekayem the mitzvah dioraisa of pikuach nefesh by saving Jewish lives from the surrounding Arabs?”
The Shulchan Oruch paskens that one should not be mevatel talmud Torah in order to preform a mitzva she’efshar la’asos al yiday achairim. So if the entire population of the State of Israel was learning all day, one would indeed be required to stop learning in order to defend the country. But seeing as the chillonim are B”H managing to defend the country rather nicely without the Chareidim’s help, there’s no reason that the Chareidim must stop learning and start soldiering.
“there is the position of many pro-zionist “hareidim” who support having other people bash Arabs heads, but want to learn gemara themselves. These are probably hypocrites. In America we call them “chicken hawks” – pro-war, but not wanting to serve.”
Nobody here is advocating “bashing Arab heads”; we just realize that we must maintain defense forces against those who seek to kill us, R”L. However, we also believe that learning contributes more to this cause than soldiering does; aileh bi’rechev vi’aileh ba’soosim, va’anachnu bi’shaim Elokainu nazkir.
“As for women’s singing, they can “force” sound waves to strike one’s eardrums but they can’t force one to listen.”
What is that supposed to mean? They can force you to violate the halacha, they just can’t make you like it?
“Interesting that people believe that “kasher” is a veteran. I do not. I think he is lying and using it to bash the Army.
DaasYochid:… You are literally “mareh ponim shelo kehalocho” and you ignore whole sugyos.”
Please, it still during the nine days… lets try to cut down on the sinas chinom and beef up the dan li’kaf zechus.
“rationalfrummie, your first fundamental error is assuming “we” need to keep control of Eretz Yisrael. This is something Mashiach will do, BB”A. Before then, we are strictly forbidden to take control of E”Y even if the nations want “us” to have it. Unlike many other halachic issues, nobody outside of Zionism (that I have seen) says that Zionists have “al ma lismoch” in their forcible conquest of E”Y and rebelling against the nations, both of which are separate and severe violations.”
How does any of that change the fact that today, we are surrounded by Arabs who want to kill us R”L, and we must defend ourselves against them?
“I think it is absolutely true that someone in the army is fulfilling pikuach nefesh. At the same time if one can learn and leave pikuah nefesh to others, that is what shulchan aruch requires. And the army has enough soldiers.”
“If it is indeed pikuach nefesh, you MUST do it yourself and not leave it to others!”
Do you have a source for that? The Shulchan Oruch seems to say the opposite…
“We call upon all Jews throughout the world to reclaim the glory of our people by refraining from language that divides us and promoting language and deeds that unite us.”
Does this mean the RCA is retracting its previous statements insulting one of the Gedolei HaDor, and accusing the New York anti-draft rally of supporting Israel’s enemies?
“do you agree that the “chalmis” condone the attack?”
Quoted from another news site:
“The leading ultra-Orthodox newspaper Hapeles has said that, while it does not condone violence, it is throwing its support behind the current campaign aimed at delegitimizing Haredis choosing to serve in the IDF.”
Hapeles is a newspaper catering to the segment of the Chareidi population to the right of R’ Shteinman (R’ Shmuel Auerbach followers, Briskers, and Yerushalmis). Even Neturei Karta only released a statement in support of non-physical attacks against “chardakim”. So no, I do not believe that any significant part of Chareidi society is condoning physical attacks against anyone.
“If Gimmel wants Tzioni moeny, they have to show that they support the soldiers against the Baryonim. If not, then the state is correct in not giving money to those who do not support it.”
I’m not sure why you think a government is justified in cutting off all funds to any group that does not support its policies… would you similarly advocate cutting the funds of all DL institutions that came out against the Disengagement?
“we hear constantly how much bettter the Chareidim consider themselves than the Tziyonim and stam Jews… How they put down others. Calling them spiritual wasteland and other epithets. And now we see that the Charidi society needs alot of cleansing.”
And that isn’t “considering yourself bettter” and “putting down others” because…?
First of all, seeing as it is almost tisha bi’av I think we should try to drop the name-calling and sarcasm in favor of a calmer, more reasonable debate.
“Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.”
Sorry, but we’re not gonna change our opinions on what is right and what is wrong just so that people will like us more. We believe in doing what’s right, not what’s popular.
“I was just pointing out to Hakatan that Zionism was far from the only, let alone the largest. cause of shmad”
How does that diminish the shmad that it did cause?
“The people who attacked him don’t have conversations without guidance from their manhigim. They determine where to shop, where to daven, what side of the street to walk on based on the guidance of their manhigim.”
There are, today, hundreds of thousands of Jews who are mechallel Shabbos on a weekly basis. Does the fact that you have not gotten up and condemned such actions mean that you support them?
Please realize that the Gedolim are very busy people (especially now that Lapid/Bennet are trying to outlaw learning in yeshiva), and they do not have the time to condemn everything that is wrong in this world, especially when they have already made it clear countless times that they are opposed to this exact behavior. You cannot reasonably expect them to take time out of their schedule to condemn a bunch of thugs who are widely regarded as crazy, and who will not listen to anybody in any case.
“If there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, in a community so directed, so restricted, so regimented, then the system is broken.”
Oh, please. Just because a few crazy extremists do dumb things does not in any way mean that the entire Chareidi “system is broken” any more than one crazy extremist killing Rabin means the entire Mizrachi “system is broken”.
“If the Manhigim are truly telling people to restrain themselves, and they are not being listened to, isn’t there something terribly wrong with the society that needs to be addressed?”
Yes, there is. It’s that people think that they know better than the Gedolei HaDor. But if you think that Meah Shearim is the only place where such a phenomena exists, you’re hiding under a rock.
“Its kind of curious, though, that the “pritzusdike women” get hounded out of the neighborhood, and, as you say, are “outcasts”, but I’ve never read about one of these (not so young) mazikim being turned out of their home and their neighborhood for such actions. Outcasts? Not so much.”
Who do you think it is hounding these “pritzusdike women”? R’ Shteinman? It’s the same guys who were just hounding this soldier – its not too surprising that they don’t kick themselves out.
And yes, they are not accepted by the general community.
“we must conclude that either a) the rabbonim approved of the attack, or b) the Chareidim aren’t really so insistent on daas Torah as they claim to be.”
You are assuming that everybody under the umbrella term “Chareidi” think and act as one monolithic group. Take that stereotyping out, and your logic falls to pieces. Most Chareidim do indeed listen to daas Torah – but to claim that every last person wearing a black hat will never do anything unless directed to do so by a Rov is simply ridiculous.
“When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?”
There are no Gedolim advocating or in any way tolerating violence. These people are being violent. Ergo, they are not listening to the Gedolim.
“In this particular community, however, the guidance is defined, strict, and comprehensive. It includes EVERYONE, even the easy to blame youth. As I wrote above, this particular community has no problem evicting those who don’t comply with their standards of tzniyus. Why, if the posters above are right, and it is aimless youth who are involved, why are they not similarly removed from the community? I can only surmise that such actions as were perpetrated on this chayal are condoned, if not encouraged, by those who are listened to in this particular community.”
You seem to think Meah Shearim is some kind of Mafia-controlled neighborhood where nothing happens without the bosses permission, and those who break the bosses’ rules are “taken care of”. News flash – that simply isn’t true. Chareidim in general do listen to their Rabbonim, but the Rabbonim are not Mafia-style bosses with absolute control of everything anybody does.
Nobody is saying that assaulting Israeli soldiers is a justified course of action. Kindly do not put words in our collective mouths. We just think that blaming the actions of a few crazies on Chareidi society in general and its “Manhigim” in particular is ridiculous.
“What I actually said was that if someone in their community did something like this I don’t understand why its not their responsibility to say that such sinah is wrong and condemn it.”
I think Health’s previous comparison actually works rather nicely for this point too: do you not understand why the MO “Manhigim” don’t get up and condemn the events that occurred in YU? Or do you see how they can simply assume that everybody recognizes that such a thing is wrong without having to be told about it?
“Why is it ok to act against pritzus but not against violence?”
Pritzus is a much more widespread problem than violence. If incidents of pritzus were also so rare as to be newsworthy, we would indeed treat them the same way.
“one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence. YWN reported it yesterday.”
Yeah, Neturei Karta. You’re not seriously suggesting that they speak for all of Chareidi Jewry, are you?