Forum Replies Created
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@ ARso
“The Or Hachayim, in explaining Rashi, says that Yaakov was buried while alive PHYSICALLY. So does the Rif on the Ein Yaakov. And again again, do I have to take your word, or can I rely on my reading and translating of those mefarshim?”
Please stop writing this. Its false. I even provided you a paraphrase in English of what the Rif wrote.
@ Philosopher
You mention 4 beliefs
1) he runs the world
2) that he’s everywhere
3) that you can pray directly to him
4) he never made mistakes.Points 1-3 are a”z. It seems, at this time, that the majority of Chabad doesn’t hold these beliefs. I am basing myself on the current policies of major Hashagacha organizations who rely on machischist mashgichim (including for wine) and on statements by R’ Aaron Feldman (who holds not to rely on them.
Given the number of yiden involved we can only daven that with Hashem’s help they will pull back from the abyss.
Belief 4 is not a-z. It is a misguided understanding of emunas chachamim. It is not an error unique to Chabad
@ Philosopher
“The sign loudly proclaiming their a”z beliefs”
Their beliefs are most certainly wrong but I don’t think the majority of them (the elohistim aside) are actually a”z. Consider, the policy of major hashgacha organizations is to rely on mashichist mashgichim. Even R’ Aaron Feldman, who holds not to rely on them it is because he holds that someoe who can hold such a belief is not of sufficiently sound mind to be reliable (not because it’s a”z)
@ ARso
Imagine a group of people who are taught from a young age that all Psukim (including the ones ascribing hagshama to the Borei) are to be taken literally. Some of these people may progress in there studies and eventually become very knowledgeable in Mikra and Shas. Some may even progress to more esoteric areas of learning. Such scholars may even gain renown for their pious observance of Mitzos and Torah knowledge. The Raivid’s point is that such a person is not a min.
We are not working from the premise that all Psukim (including the ones ascribing hagshama to the Borei) are to be taken literally. It is therefore perfectly legitimate to cite proof texts that such position is false. This is in no way disagreeing with the Raavid.
One condition of physical life is that of the nefesh animates the body. Even in the case of a comatose or paralyzed person the nefesh animates the body’s internal functions. There are other gedarim regarding how one who is physically alive interacts with the world but this should suffice for out purposes. None of the mefarshim cited (including the Rif and OrHaChaim make such a claim about Yaacov.
@ Neville
I wrote re: ARso’s post: “I just can’t figure out how to make your 2 posts that I quoted above shtim.”
You erote: Simple, the first time he said “men” it was a slight towards Philosopher for being a woman. The second time, he meant it in the sense of being mortal.
I guess you missed that his post is internally contradictory.
Next
I Actually showed in my posts above that not a single Mefaresh under discussion understands Rashi to be saying that Yaacov is physically / literally alive the way you, ARso, and Menachem Shemei seem to want to understand Rashi.
Mods
In the response to ARso above the following was not intended to be part of my post. It was a quote from ARso that I ended up not responding to.
“The Maharsha, by the way, does exactly the same. He explains Rashi literally, then disagrees respectfully. Only you and your the rabbis and talmudei (sic) chachamim that you allegedly ask hold differently. And I declare without reservation, if they say that Rashi does not mean it literally, not only are they not talmidei chachamim but they are not even talmudei chachamim.”
It would be geshmak if this could somehow be corrected. If not, I guess this will serve as a correction
@ Menachem
“Rashi on Taanis however is simply understood to mean that Yaakov is physically alive”
The way the Rif and Maharsha are explaining Rashi is that Yaacov was not subject to a misas haguf. Meaning, that unlike others who die, Yaacov’s Koach HaNefesh stayed in his body and did not separate from the body (the double lashon is from the Rif) so that there was no need to embalm him to protect him from worms since the Nefesh will protect him just like the Nefesh of the living protects his flesh from getting buggy and their also no need to bury him since the purpose of burial is for the flesh to decompose.
The above proposition is that the conditions of physical death did not apply to Yaacov. Are you understanding that this also means that all conditions of physical life did / do apply? Please clarify.
@ Arso
You wrote:
“the Ramban starts by explaining Rashi, which he understands literally as we men do. Then he offers an alternative pshat.”
Then you also wrote
“As I, a physically-bound human, cannot understand what it means to be alive and buried, I don’t want to choose as to what is the exact explanation.”
I just can’t figure out how to make your 2 posts that I quoted above shtim.
PS Please look up the mfarshei Rashi that i cited (Divrei Dovid, Maskil L’Dovid, and Maharal) and see how they understand Rashi. You seem to be taking a very firm position that:
The Maharsha, by the way, does exactly the same. He explains Rashi literally, then disagrees respectfully. Only you and your the rabbis and talmudei (sic) chachamim that you allegedly ask hold differently. And I declare without reservation, if they say that Rashi does not mean it literally, not only are they not talmidei chachamim but they are not even talmudei chachamim.
ARso
Regarding the Raavid that you are quoting
I think what Philosopher did was to trade on the (by now universally) accepted position that Psukim ascribing hagshama to the Borei should not be taken literally then proceeded to show from other Psukim why that position is compelling. Of course, if someone had a mistaken commitment to interpreting all Psukim and Agados dealing with hagshama literally they would have to resolve the Psukim she cited accordingly. The Raavid says such a person is not a min. That does not mean her proofs from the Psukim are not compelling.
@ Arso “The Ramban bought what Rashi is saying but is not commenting on what Rashi is saying whatsoever”
Do you even learn Ramban? How can you write the above with a straight face? Then you write that a women can’t know the right pshat in Rashi / Ramban.
@ Philosopher
I don’t think you have to worry about the 5-6 CR Rabbi’s who disagree with you. The The Gur Aryeh (Maharal), The Maskil L’Dovid and Divrei Dovid (Taz) certainly did not learn Rashi like them (Obviously neither did the Ramban).
@ Lostspark
The Or HaChaim you quoted is saying that Yaacov’s guf was not m’tamei and will not be subject to decomposing. Did anyone on this or the other thread claim otherwise. Specifically, did someone make a positive claim that Yaacov’s guf was m’tamei and was subject to decomposing that you felt the need to quote this Or HaChaim to set them straight?
Philosopher
I addressed my question to Neville because he seems to be claiming that the mainstream orthodox approach to how to understand the Rashi under discussion is that Yaacov Aveinu is physically alive. I was just hoping to clarify what he meant by “physically alive”. I even made the question multiple choice 🙂
Even though the question was initially addressed to Neville, I would be very interested to know how Arso would answer it as well.
I jumped in on the this conversation because עולם הפוך ראיתי
Here is a full text of Ramban. The Ramban is explaining Rashi by explaining the Medrash that Rashi is quoting. There are places where the Ramban disagrees with Rashi,, this is not one of them.
Ramban
וַיִּגְוַע וַיֵּאָסֶף וּמִיתָה לֹא נֶאֶמְרָה בוֹ, וְאָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (תענית ה), יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת, לְשׁוֹן רַשִׁ”י (רש”י על בראשית מ”ט:ל”ג). וּלְדַעַת רַבּוֹתֵינוּ הֲרֵי יַעֲקֹב הִזְכִּיר מִיתָה בְּעַצְמוֹ (בראשית מ”ח:כ”א), “הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי מֵת וְהָיָה אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם”, וְאוּלַי לֹא יָדַע הוּא בְּנַפְשׁוֹ, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא רָצָה לָתֵת כָּבוֹד לִשְׁמוֹ. וְכֵן (בראשית נ’:ט”ו) “וַיִּרְאוּ אֲחֵי יוֹסֵף כִּי מֵת אֲבִיהֶם”, כִּי לָהֶם מֵת הוּא, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא יָדְעוּ הֵם בָּזֶה כְּלָל. וְעִנְיַן הַמִּדְרָשׁ הַזֶּה, כִּי נַפְשׁוֹת הַצַּדִּיקִים צְרוּרוֹת בִּצְרוֹר הַחַיִּים, וְזוֹ תְּחוֹפֵף עָלָיו כָּל הַיּוֹם, לוֹבֶשֶׁת לְבוּשָׁה הַשֵּׁנִי, שֶׁלֹּא יִפְשְׁטֶנָּה עֲרוּמָה, כְּיַעֲקֹב, אוֹ תִּתְלַבֵּשׁ לְעִתִּים מְזֻמָּנוֹת. וְיוּבַן הָעִנְיָן הַזֶּה בְּמַסֶּכֶת שַׁבָּת (שבת קנ”ב) וּבְמַסֶּכֶת כְּתֻבּוֹת (קג.):
Below I provided the full text of 3 classic mefarshei Rashi the Maharal, Maskil L’Dovid, and Divrei Dovid (Taz). All three are also explaining Rashi, not disagreeing and providing an alternative pshat.
Maharal
ואמרו רז”ל יעקב אבינו לא מת. וכך איתא בפרק קמא דתענית (ה ע”ב) – אמר ר’ יצחק אמר ר’ יוחנן יעקב אבינו לא מת, וכי בכדי ספדו ספדיא וחנטו חנטיא, אמר ליה מקרא אני דורש (ר’ ירמיה ל, י) “ועתה אל תירא עבדי יעקב ואל תחת ישראל כי אני מושיעך מרחוק ואת זרעך מארץ שבים”, מקיש אותו לזרעו, מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים, עד כאן. והרבה מן המתמיהים על זה דאיך לא מת, והרי קברו אותו, ועוד כי הקשה מן התורה והשיב ‘מקרא אני דורש’, וכי יותר קרא של נביאים מקרא של תורה, אמנם פירוש זה כי המציאות וההעדר הם שני דברים שאין להם התיחסות וצירוף, כי זה מציאות וזה העדר, ולפי זה אם נמצא שני דברים מתיחסים ביחד אי אפשר לומר שהאחד יתואר במציאות והאחד יתואר בהעדר, שמאחר שהם מתיחסים אי אפשר לומר כך, שהרי המציאות וההעדר אין להם התיחסות. וידוע כי האב והבן מתיחסים ביחד, ואם כן ראוי לומר שאם הבן בחיים שגם האב בחיים, ולא נוכל לומר שהאב מת והבן בחיים מאחר שהאב והבן מצטרפים, והמיתה הוא העדר, ואין יחוס למציאות עם ההעדר. ואין לומר כי המיתה מבטל היחוס, כי זה אי אפשר שיבטל היחוס הזה, מאחר שאין בן בלא אב, אם כן יחוס זה וצירוף זה אין ביטול לו, ומאחר שהבן בחיים גם כן האב בחיים, ואי אפשר שיהיה רק כך. ובכל אב בעולם היה ראוי לומר כך, אלא שאין הבן יש לו חיים בעצם, והחיים באדם מקרה, כי הם חיים לשעה ומיד יוסר, אבל דבר שיש לו חיות בעצמו – כמו שהם זרע ישראל – והם חיים קיימים תמידים, וכדכתיב (דברים ד, ד) “ואתם הדבקים בה’ אלקיכם חיים כלכם היום”, ודבר זה חיות בעצם. ולפיכך יעקב שהוא אב להם, ונקראו ‘בני ישראל’ במה שהוא מתיחס להם כמו האב והבן, ראוי שיהיה בחיים, כלומר כי שם ה”חיים” נקרא עליו, היינו שאמר ‘מה זרעו בחיים’, כלומר מאחר שזרעו בחיים והאב מתיחס אל הבן – האב גם כן בחיים הוא. ובב”ר (מט, ד) פרשת וירא בפסוק (לעיל יח, יח) “למען הביא על אברהם” ‘תני רבי שמעון בן יוחי אומר כל המעמיד בן יגע בתורה כאילו לא מת’. וזה מבואר גם כן, כי בעל התורה במה שהתורה היא חיים, גם אינו דבר מקרה שיוסר ממנו, ואינו כמו החיים האלו שהם חיים מקריים, לכך האב אשר יש לו יחוס אל הבן וצירוף אליו – כמו שהבן בחיים, כך הוא גם כן בחיים, והבן זה היטב.
ועוד יש בזה דבר נפלא ונעלם ודבר מה ארמוז אם תבין, וידוע כי המיתה היא קצה וסוף, ודבר שאין לו קצבה אין לו מיתה. ומפני שיעקב אין מתיחס לו קצה, כי הקצה הוא לשני גבולים שהם קצה, כי כאשר תניח ג’ נקודות זו אצל זו אין לנקודה האמצעית קצה כלל, ומפני שיעקב הוא האמצעי בין אברהם ובין יצחק, והוא השלישי המכריע ביניהם, הוא כנגד הנקודה האמצעית שאין מתיחס לה קצת וגבול, ולפיכך יעקב אבינו לא מת. ודבר זה אמת וברור מאוד על פי החכמה. ובפרשת שמות (ד, יט) יתבאר עוד מזה אם תבין אותו, כי הם דברי חכמה מופלאה, רמזו חכמי האמת ליודעי מדע. ועל פי סוד הזה נקרא יעקב “ישרון” (ישעיה מד, ב) על שם היושר, כי כל דבר יושר אין לו קצה, שהקצה למי שנוטה מן היושר, אבל היושר אין לו קצה. וזה שאמר בלעם (במדבר כג, י) “תמות נפשי מות ישרים ותהי אחריתי כמוהו”, רוצה לומר כי במה שהם ישרים – אין לישר מיתה בעצם, ונשמתו קיימת לעד – “ותהי אחריתי כמוהו”, כי אין לדבר הישר אחרית במה שאינו נוטה לקצה, והוא נשאר באמצעי שאין לו קצה. ובספר דרך חיים נתבאר עוד, כי דברים אלו הם ברורים ליודעי חכמה. והמעלה שהיה אל יעקב אבינו שלא מת – כי החיים יש להם דביקות אל השם יתברך ביותר, וזהו מעלת החיים “ואתם הדבקים בה’ אלקיכם חיים כלכם היום” (דברים ד, ד). ואם הדביקות הזה אינו לבני אדם, זהו שהחומר הוא המבדיל בין השם יתברך ובין (הגוף) [השכל], אבל יעקב נפרד מן הגוף, ויש לו החיים והדביקות עם השם יתברך, וזהו המעלה היתרה, וזה שאמר ‘יעקב אבינו לא מת’:Maskil L’Dovid
ויגוע ויאסף ומיתה לא נאמרה וכו׳ תחלה מרגיש רש״י מבחוץ למה לי כפל דויגוע ויאסף דלכאורה היינו גויעה היינו אסיפה והתירוץ לזה שכן מצינו בשאר צדיקים שיש ב׳ לשונות הללו ועוד אחרת דהיינו מיתה כמו ויגוע וימת אברהם וכו׳ ויאסף אל עמיו ויגוע יצחק וימת ויאסף וכו׳ וכן בדין כידוע לי״ח בסוד הפירוד דגויעה היא על הנפש התחתונה שבו הנפרדת והולכת לג״ע התחתון ואסיפה היא על נשמתו העליונה היא העולה לג״ע העליון ומיתה היא על זוהמא דיסודות דעשיה שבו המתעכלת בקבר וכל צדיק דעלמא יש בו קצת זוהמא ומעתה מקשה רש״י וא״כ למה לא נאמר ג״כ ביעקב מיתה כמו בשאר צדיקים ומשני יעקב אבינו לא מת פי׳ שלא היה בו שום שמץ זוהמא כלל:
Divrei Dovid
ויגוע וכו’, יעקב אבינו לא מת.. בפ”ק דתענית (דף ה:) מקשה, על זה וכי בכדי חנטו חנטייא אמר ליה מקרא אני דורש אתה וזרעך מה זרעך בחיים כו’, נראה פירוש מאמר זה שדקדק לומר יעקב אבינו דר”ל הזכות של הצדיק שהוא בחיים עם בני דורו הוא הגנה והצלה להדור יותר ממה שהוא אחר מות הצדיק, כי בחיים צריך הוא ג”כ להגנה וההגנה ההיא יש לה כח גדול לשמרו מכל צרה ממילא נצולים גם בני דורו עמו, משא”כ באחר מותו שא”צ להגנה אלא להדור לחוד והם אינם כדאים לזה על זה אמר יעקב אבינו ר”ל זכותו שתגין עלינו לא מת, וההגנה היא גדולה כ”כ כאילו עדיין בחיים, ועל זה הקשה וכי בכדי חנטו וכו’, פירוש ממ”נ אם החונטים ידעו שהוא חי למה חנטוהו ואם היו סוברים שעל הזכות קאמר דלא מת והוא גדול עדיין אם כן למה ספדוהו שהרי לא אבדו כלום במיתתו דזכותו קיים כאילו עדיין חי. א”ל מקרא אני דורש פירוש אני יודע שזכותו כאילו חי אבל החונטים לא ידעו זה, וכ”ת מנין לי לומר דבר חדש מה שלא ידעו החונטים לזה אמר אני דורש את המקרא אבל החונטים לא ידעו מקרא זה שלא היה בימיהם אותו הפסוק בכתב (כנ”ל נכון בפירוש מאמר זה):
והאמת יורה דרכו
Gosh its been a while since I was on here. Hi everyone!
I have a question for Neville. Please clarify what you believe to be the mainstream orthodox position of of the Rashi under discussion
Are you saying that when Rashi says Yaacov Avinu Lo Meis he means:
1) Alive like in a guf sheini dak to which he transitioned to without being taam misa
or
2) Alive, as in not subject to conditions associated with being dead (ie not decomposing, not being mitamei) but the Neshama is exclusively in the Olam HaNeshamos and the Guf exclusively stays here (ie the kesher is severed)?
or
3) Alive, as in not subject to conditions associated with being dead (ie not decomposing, not being mitamei) and the Nishama is in the Olam HaNeshamos while retaining a kesher with the Guf (comparable to sleep)?
or
4) Alive like in the same exact body (skin, muscle, organs, bones) with the same physical needs (air, food, water)?
or
5) None of the above
Forget a treadmill. It’s expensive up front, needs ongoing service, and takes up lots of room. Your best bet is to get basic strength training equipment and get a trainer to come to you. Suggested equipment:
1) Olympic style barbell
Ideally a 7′ – 45LB barbell. If room is an issue get the 5′ – 25LB version.2) Weight plates 45LB x 2, 25LB x 2, 10LB x 2, 5LB x 2, 2.5LB x 2
Ideally bumper plates (walmart.com acctually has an “Everyday Essentials” set that is very inexpensive). Otherwise regular cast iron plates are fine. Note that even if you go the bumper plate route the 5 LB and 2.5 LB plates will be cast iron.3) Squat rack. If you don’t have room for a rack you can get squat stands
4) Doorway chin up bar. If you cant do chin ups yet get some assistant bands.
Train 3 days per week. Hire a good trainer to come to your house and teach you how to safely perform the following lifts.
Day 1
Low bar back squat
Chin UpDay 2
Press
Low bar back squatDay 3
Chin up
PressOnce you get the above lifts down you’ll want to learn another 3 lifts. the front squat, deadlift, and floor press.
*If you want to bench press you”ll have to add a bench to the equipment above. Since I use the floor press as an assistance exercise for the press I don’t bother with a bench.
For Cardio take a brisk walk on the days you don’t lift. You can also skip rope or do jumping jacks for warm ups on your lifting days.
@ CS “nefesh chaim(I think) who pretty much said the same thing”
No he did not. Nothing of the sort.
@ Knaidelach
Since you are so fond of just tossing around ma’amarei Zohar, check out the Ramchal’s sefer Kinas Hashem. You will be astonished (not in a good way) at the kind of things one can arrive at by simply taking statements of the Zohar at face value. It IS called sisrai Torah for a reason, you know.
@ Toi
Fancy seeing you here 🙂
A consensus of experts, even a majority consensus,) is certainly a legitimate piece of evidence to consider in building a case to accept or reject a proposition. But there is a fine line (and sometimes a rather thick, albeit obscured one) between using this piece of evidence competently on the one hand and deceptively on the other.
For starters:
1) A consensus of experts (COE) should be regarding a subject that is subject to expertise. Meaning, it’s the kind of thing we have lots of experience with. That is, after all, how expertise is established.Even when criteria 1 is met…
2) COE ought to considered only if the experts have expertise (lots of experience) in the subject they are offering an opinion on
Even if criteria 2 is met…
3) We should remember that COE is one type of evidence. We ought to consider the weight of contrary evidence. If there is sufficient contrary evidence we ought to leave the matter unresolved.
@ Bruriah
You quoted: “קדושין פט”
What’s your point? surely you are familiar with the concept of כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול ממנו
You wrote: “Philosopher is not defending”
she wrote: “I sincerely believe it was not with intent to denigrate our Chachomim, c”v….That is not why you should make it seem as if the Bruriah’s post is so bad that it’s not worth reading”
That sounds like a defense to me.
“She’s asking you and others to address the actual chazals in question”
I actually did precisely this. Did you even bother to read my posts?
@ Philospher
“But why would we argue what ndk means for all women halachically or even only as a Chazal’s description of us if we are talking about an agadata that never has a practical application? ”
One area where it has Halachic ramifications is in Hilchot Talmud Torah. The Mishna and Gemara in Soteh and the Machlokes Rashi and Rambam as to how to understand NDK has had (and continuous to have) a significant impact on how Poskim in various communities advocate designing a curriculem for female students.
“As far as I know, agadatas never dictate halacha or define a reality.”
Whether or not Agadata dictates Halacha they are part of our Heilig Torah and we have an obligation to understand them in line with the intent of the Ba’alei Mesorah. Something being an Agadeta is not a license to disregard it or to interpet it as one sees fit.
Also, we argue because when when a superficial reading of Chazal yields a misogynistic or feminist point of view it is our duty to set the record straight. We have this duty to uphold the honor of the Torah and to uphold the dignity of our wives and daughters.
@ philosopher
“the words of the Mishna is more accurate with her post”
Her malicious feminist rant was completely out of line on so many levels. Other posters have already called attention to the contemptuous manner she referred to Chazal. Beyond that suggesting that anyone can arrive at the proper understanding of Torah Sh’bal Pe by reading english translations of Talmud on Sefria is obscene. Her post does not so much reflect knowledge of the source material more like a familiarity with feminist journal articles on the subject. Not sure why you are trying to defend the indefensible.
“than other homemade peshutim that people are cooking up.”
I would say the pshatim you are referring to weren’t so much cooked up as they where half baked.
@ klugeryid
“basically your taking it out on Joseph because his comment triggers your rent up frustrations from people you come in contact with on a regular basis”
Being a male I am not on the receiving end of the kind of neirishkeit that would result in such pent up frustration.
@ klugeryid
“if someone routinely denigrated men in general by pointing out an intrinsic masculine failing, why would it bother me?”
I suspect a reason it doesn’t bother you is that you are not subjected to behavior and attitudes rooted in discriminatory premises on a regular basis. Maybe if you where you might feel differently.
@ Yeshivaguy78
“That’s not correct. Of course there are exceptions to intrinsic traits”
Please review the concepts of intrinsic vs incidental as the terms are commonly used in philosophy and logic.
Maybe philosopher (given her screen name) will be willing to help you out with this.@ Klugeryid
“Yeshivaguy78
While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.”I did follow the post and to me it came across as a feminist rant.
@ Philosopher et al
My point in contrasting specifically Devorah with other nashim tzedkanyos is this.
1) There is a distinction between intrinsic and incidental traits.2) If NDK is an incidental trait then it doesn’t necessarily apply to Devorah. It also wouldn’t NECESSARILY apply to most women today, one would have to make an assessment based on whatever concept of NDK one is using. That’s how incidental traits work.
3) If NDK is an intrinsic trait then it applies to all women at all times because it is part of what it is to be a women. That is how intrinsic traits work. It would therefore also apply to Devorah. One would then have to adapt a concept of NDK that would not prevent one with such a trait from being a permanent chain in the link of Torah transmission.
That is also why I did not use prophecy and tzidkus in making my point.
Checkmate.
@ DY
“I don’t get the point of bringing the cases of exceptional women in klal Yisroel’s history”
I’m surprised, you usually have a sharper eye for nuance. I wasn’t merely bringing up exceptional women. My remark was more pointed then that. I was contrasting most exceptional women with one. specifically Devorah and the fact that she had a very unique role in Klal Yisroel.
C”V that I would say anything to undermine one word of Chazal.
Also, a correction is in order. When I wrote ” all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Gemmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah” Chulin I meant to say a certain Gemmara in Magilah.
@ philosopher
“we each have our own spiritual destiny”
True that. But, we also have a collective destiny and when the ladies aren’t on board things go on a hand basket ride to warmer climates in a hurry. Contrast the situation in pre Bais Yaacov Europe with post Bais Yaacov America. It is not for nothing that Rav Aaron famously said he would never have been ab;e to build Lakewood Yeshiva w/o Bais Yaaov.
@ Philosopher
“I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point”
Per the source I quoted above it’s even more then that. Devorah was a link in the chain of the authoritative transmitters of Torah. Sarah, Miriam, Ester, and Hulda where also neviot. Ma’atikei HaShmuah is a uniquely special distinction. It is especially interesting because women are not mitzuveh in Talmud Torah and gadol mitzuveh v’oseh. In spite of that she was the shofetes of her generation. Barak even refused to fight Sisra if she did not go with him.
Now, all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Grmmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah.
Take a look at the hakdamah of Perush Machzor Vitri on Avos (printed in every Yachin u Boaz Mishnaos).
See there in the hakdomah where the ma’atikai hashmuah (authoritative transmitters of the Torah) are listed. Get to the part where Devorah and Boaz are listed among the ma’atikai ha-Shmuahin of their generation. Next, take a deep breath and look at the shinuy girsot (sourced from the Sefer HaKaneh if I remember correctly) that Devorah received the Torah and transmitted it to Barak. Now meditate on the implications of that.@ Rational
You stated a proposition and supported it only to have your point beaten down like a scarecrow full of straw. Must be frustrating. For whatever it’s worth you have my empathy.
@ Besalel
Great response!
@ MrSarhahLevine
Why are you using a transgender screen name?
This was actually a very useful post. I never heard of these before and was considering the standard soy stuff (not a fan). Went out and bought a bunch of these yesterday for my family’s supper during the 9 days. Thank you.
@ CA
“Did I say all people that live in Baltimore hate trump? Those that do are baltimorons the rest are baltimorians”
Thank you for clarifying. I retract.
@ coffee addict
“Exactly, because baltomorons hate trump and are RACISTS”
You just leveled a prejudiced insult at an entire community based on the comments of one CR liberal.
@ Kerevelt
“Just want to make sure that you’re aware, that by your definition we (am yisroel) wouldn’t have been zoche to the works of: The RaMBaM…RaMChaL”
GM’s criteria is spot on. There may have been controversy regarding the Rambam and the Ramchal initially, however:
1) Even at the time of the controversy it was certainly not a majority consensus against
2) B’Mehalech ha-doros both the Rambam and Ramchal where embraced by all Gedolim and many their works have come to be regarded as essential and are universally studied ad hayom. (The study of certain works are obviously reserved for those who have mastered the necessary prerequisites as the mehabrim themselves clearly state.)I am adding my voice in requesting an answer to Greymatter’s question. Of course we rely on a Chezkes Kashrus, and by a Talmid Chochom it is even more then that, we can be certain of his kashrus. But,all of this applies until “we know”. So, what would it be like to know such a thing? What would need to happen?
@ Luna
“I think the section controlled by women would be taken seriously because they’d actually get stuff done.”
Right, because in most times and places that this occurred that is exactly what happened. You are, no doubt, merely extrapolating from a smaller scale to grander one. well done.
“Men have been in control of governments all over the world for centuries….”
Oops. Maybe not.
“and look at how much corruption and chaos exists.”
I have heard this argument before. It goes something like this…
“The Tzars have been controlling this country (Russia) long enough and look at how much corruption and chaos exists let’s overthrow the buggers and make a workers paradise”But I realize that you where not trying to make a rational argument. You where merely expressing disdain at what is an offensive oversimplification of a rather nuanced issue.
“Ruining a misogynist’s day is enough motivation for me to support something”
I think most posters would agree with this sentiment. After all, if it wasn’t for misogynists we probably wouldn’t have feminists.
@ talmid
“if his kabbalah from his rebbi or father is not to shave”
That’s the point. It seems that in pre-war Europe the common practice was for bachurim to shave so, generally speaking, there was no such kabbalah. I think exceptions where made for Chassidic bochurim though. Someone more familiar with the history can weigh in on that.
Did it occur to you that Rav Chaim was speaking to the specific bachur and commented on something that was appropriate for him?
@ Talmid
“Does it make a difference what the local “Minhag” of Lakewood is? Is Lakewood the Sanhedrin of Klal Yisroel?”
On the one hand
1) Lakewood is the largest Yeshiva in the US, It was Rav Aaron”s Yeshiva and is run by his RM”K (his grandson) and the Roshei Yeshiva are his talmidim
2) RM”H (the Rav of the Star K is himself a Talmid of Rav Aaron and an internationally respected PosekOn the other hand an internet rabbi with with multiple personalities wishes to establish that there is a consensus of Litvesh Gedolai Yisroel INCLUDING RAV AARON not like Rav Moshe.
And you somehow fail to see how the yeshiva policy (not just local custom) of Lakewood Yeshiva is relevant to the conversation??
Sorry RATIONAL, I hijacked your question.
@ NCB
“B’klal, we all know Litvaks are more likely to be OK with this than chassidim”
Not true.
@ Just Another Yid
“to say that Joseph is saying fake Halacha is not true. it’s like calling Ashkenazim fake because of Sephardi rabbis”
Sure it’s true, your comparison is flawed. If Ashkenazim told all the Sephardim that they cannot follow the Psak of their Rebbeim and are compelled to follow ours that would be fake Halacha.
@ Rational
“This method of persuasion is ineffective and irrational.”
How I wish it was so. Unfortunately, one does not have to be rational to be effective. Appeals to authority and social proofs are quite effective at influencing behavior.
@ Mentsch1
“Litvaks have always prioritized psak (not everyone was regarded equal) Rav Moshe was the posek Hador.”Everyone prioritizes, it’s not a Litvak thing. There are princples from Shas and Poskim how to prioritize. Not sure what you mean by “Posek HaDor” though. Is that sort of like Nasi Hador only not?
Thus far the mental health professions have not inspired a whole lot of confidence in these areas. It’s an open question if overall they help more then they hurt. I’m not suggesting that we throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just that, in this case, there is an awful lot of bathwater.
@ Talmid
“It is a chassidishe concept so you need to consult with chassidishe rabbonim to fully understand what it means”
Nebech.
@ Joseph
After reading the news today I finally see the light. You where right all along. New York truly does exist on a higher plane of Ruchnius then the rest of the country. In NY we are zoche to experience ma’at machzik et hamirubeh, lo and behold the simple sidewalks in NY accommodate vehicles and pedestrians.
Syag, I think you owe Joseph an apology.
@ Joseph
“…move to the city that never sleeps. Because the Kol HaTorah is fired up 24/7”
Only a New Yorker is capable of the delusion that someone in actually jealous of their lifestyle. Also, You are, grossly overstating the benefits of living in NY and understating the nisyonos. As for your contention that the Kol Torah is fired up 24/7. Maybe, you could compare the number of married full time learners in NY vs Lakewood?
Lest you think I just don’t know what I’m missing you should know that I visit NY quite regularly (my mother lives there).
@ ncb
“the usual wacky, Tzionishe suspects…”
I, for one, am not tzionish. I’m non-political.
Not being from NY, I had no idea that in many communities Yiddish is the first language. I do have friends from most major Yeshivas in the US and Israel. While many do speak a Yeshivish Yiddish for none of them is Yiddish their first language.
@ CTL
“My father Z”L was fluent in 18 languages”
More then 1/4 of the way to the language competency requirement to sit on the Sanhedrin. Impressive. Today, it seems, the trend is to know 0 languages fluently and to consider this a virtue.
The OP is on target. Once upon a time, in a shtetl far far away Yidish was the common Jewish language, the mamma loshon of European Jewry. For better of for worse most Yidden today neither speak it or understand it. It is true that in certain communities it is strongly propped up and succeeds in becoming a 2nd language to English in the US and to Ivrit in Israel.
Be that as it may, many of the Gedolim heard shiurim from their Rebbeim in Yiddish and spoke it in their homes it is therefore a language very much beloved to them. And what is beloved to the Gedolim is beloved to Klal Israel. I, for one, regret never having learned Yiddish. Many shiurim are available on Kol Lashon from some of our greatest luminaries, in Yiddish.
@ NCB
“Your presentation is a false dichotomy. The fact that you think bochrim either learn enough halachah to become a posek or don’t learn any…”Please don’t put words in my mouth, I said no such thing.
Of course bachurim should learn Halacha (and Tanach as well, but that’s for another post). Whatever gave you the idea that I think otherwise?
@ rational
“Dear YO, I respect your views…”
Why??
@ laskern
“It seems to be the old shalah of sinai veokar horim…”
It only deceptively seems like that. I’ll explain. R’ Channina Ben Dosa was a Tana who had a tremendous koach haTephilla. so much so that when R’ Yochanan Ben Zackai’s son was ill he sent talmidim to RCHB”D to pray for them. When his wife asked RYB”Z is RCHB”D was greater then him he answered “no, he is like a servant before The King and I am like a minister before THE KING. Both RCHB”D and RYB”Z where first and foremost Gedolai HaTannaim. Same thing with Rava (oiker harrim) and R’ Yossef (sinai). The question was who to recruit as the next Rosh Yeshiva.
Next. There is a famous teshuva from the Ri Migash where he points out the advantage to Dayanim of knowing Psakim of the Geonim. No one ignores this. Every major contemporary Posek from R’ Moshe, to R’ Vozner, to R’ Ovadia where versed in psakim of Rishonim and Acharonim backwards and forwards.
As for talmidim who do not become poskim or dayanim, what would you rather have.
A) someone who appriciates the amkus of a sugya and knows how to learn
or
B) a da’aya zoger