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@ AAQ
You are not addressing the crux of the problem. Mainly: “Deals have repeatedly been made, only to be broken by the IDF, or forced to be broken by the SC/AG (YYA)”.
On Oct 7 everyone who cared to look could see clearly that Chareidi yidden are willing to be moiser nefesh for our brother’s regardless of their background. But we will not put ourselves under the authority of self hating meshumadim.
@ SJ
You wrote: “I’m not sure what your cryptic criticism is about my use of the terms “masis” and “madiach”. Please explain what I got wrong.”
1) You called YB a masis u’ madiach.
2) I asked you what grounds you have ffor calling him a mu”m
3) You responded: because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
This proposition of yours is problematic on both Halachic and logical grounds
Halachic: Your proposition has no basis in Halacha. Do you have any Posek who applies the status of mu”m the way that you did? Do you have proofs from Chazal and Rishonim to apply the status of mu”m in a way that you did?
2nd Logical: According to to your reasoning if terrorists or neo nazis would publicly attack Zionism then someone who speaks against such terrorists or neo nazis would be a mu”m because they are actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy. This is absurd.
@ AAQ
The fact that there is such a vast disagreement among Gedolim on a number of substantial related issues makes it all the more compelling when they agree regarding the point under discussion. You wouldn’t treat any other matter of consequence the way you are treating this one. For example if the vast majority of structural engineers told you a particular bridge is near collapse I don’t imagine you would be packing the fam in a car for a drive across. This is true even if there would be a small number of very competent engineers who disagree. Even if you dabble in engineering and the minority position makes sense to you. Refusing to cross in the above case is the reasonable thing to do, no?
@ UJM
“Democracy is not a Jewish concept. Judaism supports a monarchy that’s a Jewish theocracy.”
This is a gross oversimplification. But hey, who cares about details when it’s so much easier (and feels better) to make broad, unqualified statements. Carry on.
“YYA (somejewiknow ?), right”
LOL
You wrote: “Just two Talmidei Chachomim politely disagreeing about a controversial issue”
I don’t think the following qualifies as just polite disagreement. More like a polite warning not to go off the deep end.
“And your esteemed honor should know that even for the purpose of zealotry, it is forbidden to misinterpret the Torah contrary to Halakha [לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה], and that which is not true will not succeed at all”
@ CA
“It is something that i”m trying to work on (not being skeptical)”
Considering the unfortunate, widespread, inclination for fantasy (See Emuna u” Bitachon, Chazon Ish) your skepticism may not be such a bad thing. והפתי יאמין לכל דבר. This is especially important when dealing with fantastical claims for which there is no evidence.
@ SJ
If you care even a little bit about emes, before just throwing terms around willy nilly, you may want to review the halachos of masis u’ madiach.
Next
Somehow, the vast majority of the Torah world manages not to be Zionist without needing to endorse / embrace vicious murderers You do realize that someone can be both a vicious murder AND anti-Zionist at the same time, right?
@ AAQ
“…there is a discussion why our generation learns more – even Uktzin, but do not deserve miracles as previous ones… Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.”
This is certainly true. But, it is the first step on any legitimate ladder. Many years ago I personally went to Yeshiva instead of the army after a conversation with a D”L Rav who pointed this out to me.
@ YB
“there is no need to take offense at being accused of not knowing ‘unknown unknowns ’because it cannot be helped , and no such offense was ever intended”
The kind of unknowns you where accusing him of are “should have known unknowns”, hence the use of the word naivete. Why are you backtracking from this? An olive branch?
@ AAQ
I’m a big fan of arguing a case from first principals (sometimes). I don’t see you doing that here. Your point of view on this subject requires accepting multiple propositions beyond first principals. You seem to be building your argument from what you perceive are, or ought to be, premises regarding which there is broad consensus. Clearly you see that this is not the case.
@ SJ
You wrote: “because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.”
1) There are other public, vocal faces of tochocheh against zionism. For example, Both Satmar factions in the U.S and the Eidah Hareidis. None of the above feels the need to be m’chanif terrorists and dictators in the way N”K is doing.
2) Your svara for who qualifies for masis u’mediach is very interesting. I would like to explore it further. Here is a hypothetical case. Lets say a thief, rapist, or murderer publicly, and vocally spoke out against zionism. Would someone who criticizes him for his crimes be a masis u’mediach according to you?
The one thing I can say about this svara is that it is consistent. Sometimes a svara can be logical and reasonable yet still be wrong halachically. This svara of yours does not suffer from such a problem.
@ YYA
“Everyone involved here in Israel, on both sides of the fence, understands that. It’s just that the Chareidim can’t say out loud that they won’t serve altogether, and the Left can’t say out loud that they want to make Chareidim go OTD, so both sides use code words and dog whistles.”
Very well said. Especially since Hareidi units have been tried in the past. Given the above what do you think is the path forward? Should Hatzalh start a private militia?
I’m still waiting to hear from SJ why, according to him, YB is a massis u’medeich.
@ SR
“And that is how UJM and HaKatan win debates”Which debates do you think they won? Who conceded?
@ SJ
” your baseless claims against a group of apparently kosher yidden is not only dishonest, but motzi shem ra. It is possibly also masis imadiach”YB has been doing an excellent job of both (1) eloquently presenting the mainstream chareidi position on the issues under discussion and (2) laying bare your mistakes. At the same time, nowhere has he promoted Zionism. So, how exactly is he, even l’daatcha a masis u’madiach?
@ Its not me
1) Heter Iska, when done properly is permitted and used quite broadly
2) I’m with DY on the lace top sheitel thing
3) Not sure why you think R’ Falk is the last word on this subject.
4) A curse is not a Mitveh. If you think it is maybe you should go plow a field without the use of any plowing implements
I would like to thank UJM for posting this. It is especially worthwhile to re-read the following:
וידע מע”כ שגם לצורך קנאות אסור לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה, ומה שאינו אמת אינו מצליח כלל.
גם לענ”ד אפי’ מי שהחשב שזו אתחלתא דגאולה אע”פ שבאמת אינו כן כי הוא שינוי מגלות לגלות מר יותר שחאומות בדורות האחרונים עכ”פ לא התערבו בענינים של שמירת הדת משא”כ הני הפשים ר”ל, מ”מ מי שסובר שהשינוי משלטון נכרים לשלטון חופשים ורשעים מזרע ישראל הוא אתחלתא דגאולה אינו אלא טועה אבל לא רשע ח”ו שיהא מותר לדבר עליו להר”ר ולבזותו ברבים]
I would also very much appreciate it if @Somejew, @HaKatan, or @UJM can provide a documented example of recognized Poskim who hold any of the following:
1) None-mevushel wine handled by a DL Jew has the status of Y.N
2) Marriages and divorcees with D”L witnesses are invalid
3) DL Jews cannot count for a minyan@ AAQ
“NP, right, the point here seems to be that these obligations contradict each other sometimes”
If you accept my proposition that the Rambam is laying out 2 tracks then there is no contradiction, even sometimes.
@ AAQ
” there is a machlokes between rambam and rambam: in halochos deah, I think, he says to sleep 8 hours and wake up at sunrise. In limud Torah, he suggests learning both during the day and during night, as these are two different type of learning. In truth, for some months, you can’t fulfill both and you have to have your priorities”
I think the Rambam in the M”T lays down 2 tracks:
1) The obligations of every Yid
2) The hanhaga of one who strives to merit the Keter shel Torah (3rd Perek in Hilchos T”T)Consider this: if I flip a coin 10 times it is possible, though very unlikely, that I will get 10 heads in a row. If I flip the same coin 100,000 time the deviation from 50% will be quite small. The above 2 statements are true in spite of the fact that a coin has no memory and each flip of an honest coin has a 50% chance of coming up heads. So, it does not follow that what happens to 30% of a large population will necessarily happen to an particular subgroup of 3 out of 10 people.
Not hiding. Just been crazy busy lately.
@ YYA
“I prepared a detailed response to your post, but I am scrapping it, because I am not interested in fueling further back and forth on this subject that will inevitably lead to more ביזוי תלמידי חכמים”
Maybe reconsider. You have not read anything objectionable from YB or myself. We would appreciate hearing your responses to our posts.
@ YYA
You wrote: “If you open up a Rishon and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”?”
It depends. There are other principals for accepting / rejecting propositions other then an appeal to authority. For example, there are Geonim and Rishonim who held the earth does not move. Obviously, once we have the benefit of observing it move that is grounds for rejecting that opinion.
Next
ARSo wrote: had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T…” You responded: “It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…”
I disagree with this on 2 counts:
1) Those who had sufficient information / reason to oppose him had every obligation to do so. One does not need to be a Gadol to know the Emes. Consider this, If your Rav tells you to speak lashon HaRa you are forbidden to acquiesce to his request. You don’t say “Well he is a Gadol, what do I know”.
2) In fact many Gedolim where initially taken in by S”T.Next
You wrote: “Nowhere does the חפץ חיים permit saying לשון הרע in order to “irk” someone. If it is clear that there is no possibility of convincing someone, then there is no obligation, and ממילא no היתר, of תוכחה or תועלת or anything else.”
The Toeles is creating an environment that is not conducive for spreading their falsehoods. The importance of this toeles is amplified by the fact that they are propagandizing these falsehoods with significant resources.
Next
“Be honest. Whoever is posting these comments here is just doing it for fun. Not to “save” anyone.
Honestly, No. There is nothing “fun” about this
Next
You wrote: “To trigger a ספק דאורייתא of איסורי לשון הרע it is not at all necessary to be a גדול, only to be עמיתך,”
This is true. And for this reason, it is very important to stick to the issues without disparaging anyone personally.
There is more to say about this but this is all I have time for at the moment
@ HaKatan
“It’s a shame that you consider the Torah’s view to be minor and anachronistic.”
Actually, he has demonstrated conclusively and at length that what you are espousing is not the Torah view. But, that’s ok, keep doing your thing.
@ AAQ
“One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews.”
1) One does not have to ignore their success in Kiruv to be troubled by the issues that have been enumerated many times across multiple threads. The one does not mitigate the other.
2) The fact that they are successful at kiruv compounds the problem.
@ YYA
“I’m also a little suspicious about who ‘CS’ really is. If she just wants to be מתחזק with friends, there are plenty of Chabad and Chabad friendly websites and social media”
She has written in the OP as well as previous threads that she has an interest in reading other people’s point of view. Why are you advising her to live in an echo chamber? There are intelligent posters from different segments of the frum community who post here. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.
@ YYA
Why did you assume that the many posters on the Chabbad threads are:
1) Misnagdim
2) Not willing to be m’kabel anythingIn fact, both of the above assumptions are wrong.
@ YYA
Why did you assume that the many posters on the Chabbad threads are:
1) Misnagdim
2) Not willing to be m’kabel anythingIn fact, both of the above assumptions are wrong.
Are you a prophet to know in advance who will reject Moshiach? Most Chabbadskers (including Moshichist) are sincere people who are making an error. Even if we accept that choosing such a belief as an adult shows a serious lack of discernment, many are raised on this from childhood. I think Moshiach will be able to demonstrate the emes to sincere yidden who are want to do the ratzon Hashem.
@ Philosopher
Good to have you back! Thought you gave up on the CR after having to endure all the asinine attacks.
Regarding the whole Hashem has / does not have needs thing. I have a Ramban for you in parshas Balak. Can you guess which one?
Some people will surely misconstrue the Ramban to defend ascribing anthropomorphic qualities to Hashem, even though he and his talmidim warn us against doing exactly that.
@ Qwerty
One of the reasons I participate in CR threads is the opportunity to interact with people from different communities and develop a better understanding of their points of view. YYA actually takes the time to compose intelligent, well articulated posts. This, and other threads have only gained from his contributions. Attacking him personally isn’t helping make your point.
Not only that. Your method of attack is undermining the very goal you are seeking to accomplish. Mainly, to demonstrate the error of specific beliefs held and propagated by certain elements in Chabbad.
Welcome back
@AAQ
“….anti z position here is defended by a small but determined group that is not very eloquent. I could have written better responses for them.”
It’s funny you say that. I was literally considering doing just that.
@ Qwerty613
“My Rabbis, however, reject this out of hand as a negation of Rambam and I agree with them.”
This issue centers around a well known dispute between the Rambam and Ramban.
On what grounds do your Rebbeim reject the Ramban? Why do you agree?
@ DaMoshe
Your last post was excellent. It will, unfortunately, go underappreciated
@AAQ
“Do you have a document from Hashem guaranteeing lack of challenges for your community specifically?”
No. The Dati Leumi community needs full time learners as well. Every Jewish community does. There are plenty of challenges that go along with that. No one is exempt from challenges in olam hazeh.
“Maybe you feel that you are doing so much for Hashem by learning and wearing dark clothes on a hot day”
I see lots of people wearing suits in the summer. Fedora hats go better with suits then baseball caps, no? People tend to dress similarly to other people in their communities. No big chidush there. Not sure what this has to do with the subject we are discussing
@ AAQ
We have various models for that in Judaism. One is Yissachar/Zevulun – that is a valid contract between two willing participants. There are, B’H people willing to support learning. Not when one of them forces the other to pay. Another is – live on bread and water. Another is – work and learn at night. Another – get a profession, work several hours a day and learn.
You forgot 2 other options:
1) Recognition of the vital role full time learning plays in the preservation of the Jewish Nation and taxation by a Torah True government to fund it.
2) Under a democratic government, political advocacy for financial allocations by constituents who recognize the same.News flash. In a democracy you are “forced to pay” for lots of things you don’t personally agree with
@ UJM
Thank you for the link to the letter
@ Sechel
Will you answer the 3 questions I asked you?
@ Sechel
“I just watched Manis Friedman’s video and qwerty (Rav aharon Feldman) completely distorted it.”
Rav Ahron Feldman is an ish emes. He doesn’t distort things. That’s some chutzpa for you to speak that way about one of the Gedolei Yisroel.
“He says “there’s not a Jew in the world who deserves punishment” that does not mean there is no שכר עונש”
Really? Oh, you mean that there is schar and onesh but there is no Jew today who commits any willful transgressions. Every transgression by every individual is a ones or shogeg? Thank you for clearing that up. But, it’s Rav Aaron Feldman who is guilty of distortion??
“I even wonder who has more faith: the heretic who cannot accept the existence of G‑d after the Holocaust, or the believer who attributes such horrors to G‑d’s appetite for punishment.”
This is what is known as a fools choice. How about option “C” None of the above
“the “retribution for sins” approach is an unbearable affront to the holy Jewish nation and their G‑d.”
You may want to re-read the Asereh Dibros.
@ none
Never read “the part about Bris Mila” but is comfortable arguing with Chazal and Rishonim. This isn’t even apikorsis at this point, it’s just sad.
@ AAQ
Couple of things
1) Full time Torah Learning is a Civic Contribution of the Highest Order.
2) There are sizeable kehilos in EY who do not take a penny from the Government. Many, from families who came well
before 1948. They never asked for anything from the State.For the above two categories military service is a none-starter. There is a caveat regarding category 1. In America, most frum yidden don’t stay in learning full time past 3-5 years in Kollel. The matzav in EY in the Chareidi communities is different then in the US but it is changing.
One of the obstacles to this change is mandatory military service for men who are not learning full time. Because…
3) Putting our sons (and daughters) under the authority of people who are at best ambivalent and at worst outright hostile to the Torah is not acceptable. And, unlike Hatzala, we can’t just pick up and make a private army.
In spite of the above, for those who are not learning full time a path to be able to be contribute economically and militarily needs to be found.
Do you have a realistic solution?
Regarding the whole Chabbad is Kfira / A”Z thing.
There is a case that has been made that the Gedolim of the previous generation where not aware of certain statements made by the last Lubavicher Rebbe and had they been aware they would have certainly considered Chabbad Kfira / A”Z. The thing is that, as of today, all the Rebbeim are aware of the controversial statements. Still, every major Kashrus organization relies on Chabbad mashgichim (even Moshichist ones). Even Rav Aaron Feldman, who holds not to rely on them, is clear it is not because we have to be Choshed them as being Ovdei A”Z.
That being said, believing in the tooth fairy isn’t Kfira / A”Z either. Now if someone insists of believing in the tooth fairy that is their business, and nobody who values there time should try to argue with them. On the other hand, if someone (or many someones) are engaged in a mass media campaign to pass off belief in the tooth fairy as normative Jewish belief and leaving teeth under ones pillow as normative Jewish practice this should rightly be fought against.
@ Sechel
You wrote that Rabbi Brietawitz teaches the last Lubavicher Rebbe’s Torah. Can you please specify what shiur(im) you are referring to?
@ Sechel
Signed Psak Dins are a-dime-a-dozen today.
Also, what sugya? My questions where:
1) To your knowledge, did the last Lubavicher Rebbe declare that he was speaking as a Prophet in the name of Hashem?
2) Do you believe that the last Lubavicher Rebbe was a Prophet (in the full Halachic sense of the word)?
These are simple yes or no questions
You raised an interesting point about classes for like minded, capable, motivated girls who want to learn. I can think of a couple of issues:
1) What we have is Halachic precedent for is girls / women learning Talmud as individuals.There where even (rare) cases of exceptional women who gave shiur (from behind a mechitza) to men. Organized Talmud classes for girls / women is unprecedented. To be sure, that is not insurmountable. After all, Beis Yaacov was also unprecedented. However, like Beis Yaacov, such an innovation should have broad support from Gedolei Yisroel to be considered legitimate.
2) Such initiatives will surely be highjacked by people with a Feminist agenda.
@AAQ
Can you unpack what you mean about “the analysis of Mitzvot”
There are different ways to analyze Mitzvot. Do you mean: (1) legal parameters, like the Talmud. (2) reasons, like the Chinuch. (3) Something else…@ Sechel
Are you going to answer my question?
Did the last Lubavicher Rebbe claim, as a Halachic Navi, to be speaking in the name of Hashem?
Do you believe that the last Lubavicher Rebbe, was a Navi, in the full, Halachic sense of that word?
Also, as an aside
I saw you wrote that Rabbi Brietawitz teaches the last Lubavicher Rebbe’s Torah. I have heard a number of his shiurim and have not heard this. Can you specify what shiur(I’m) you are referring to?
@AAQ
Nice to see you bringing the thread back to the subject of the OP
You wrote regarding HaKatan’s post: “the only permissible way for them to learn is completely on their own with no teacher?”
I don’t think that’s what he meant. The objection is to a program of formal instruction on a community level. I think it’s obvious that a girl or woman who pursues learning would need competent instruction.
@ none 2.0
Your pop-humanist ranting does not pass for an answer to any of the questions that I and other posters have asked you.
I am taking this very rare opportunity to completely agree with what HaKatan wrote