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@ ZSK
You wrote: “Charedim have deified Rabbis (see Artscroll hagiographies as blatant examples of that) to the point of the Charedi community replacing the Torah with something else entirely.”
It’s not good form to paint the entire chareidi community as “deifying rabbis”. HaRav Aaron Feldman devotes a chapter in his book “Eye of The Storm” to the problem with how Gedolim Biographies are presented. Publishers will publish what sells and what sells is larger then life. the larger, the better. That being said don’t confuse reverence for deification.
You wrote: An actual Bais Din is required for a Gezera or Takana, not what currently occurs in Israel or the Aguda, and certainly not what gets slapped on Pashkevilim)
What would be an example of such a Gezera or Takana enacted by recognized Gedolei Yisroel?
Pashkevilim are dvarim betailim, usually not worth the paper they are written on. Unfortunately, today the means to manipulate public opinion has gone far beyond pashkavilim.
You wrote: bad actors – also known as Askanim – who provide partial or false information for their own personal gain.
No doubt there are, and always were such askanim, There is a reason that כל העסקים בצרכי צבור באמונה get a special bracha. There are also askanim who are selflessly devoted to khal work and are worthy of the above bracha.
You wrote: This is a known thing, and it is unfortunately only the Charedim who don’t see it or the harm it brings.I lament this state of affairs where I am forced to question what Rabbonim say…”
The chareidim I know see it quite clearly. The solution is to speak to Rabbonim directly.
“Without minimizing what the Charedi community has done during the last war, more needed to be done, and that more is specifically serving in the army and giving the RZ community a chance to rest.”
In this people will follow the psakim of their respective Rebbeim. That is as it should be.
@ UJM
Does it feel good to pound a straw man? Its the intellectual equivalent of pounding on a punching bag. You can win every fight without having to go toe to toe with an actual opponent.
@ SR
You and HaKatan seem to have quite a bit in common. But I guess that’s inevitable. Ze L’Umat Ze…
@ Sechel83
You wrote: “i imagine rabbi feldman learned a lot of gemara, but when it comes to these topics, Rabbi Freidman learned much more.”
The key word here is “imagine” How do you know who learned more about “these topics”?
Do you really believe that there are no competent detractors and that if we would all just learn Chabbad Chassidus with an open mind then we would surely see the light? Are you serious?
Next
You wrote: “i already said to say there is no schar veonesh today is like saying no nevuah”
Are you saying there is no schar today either? Probably not, you mean just no onesh, right? So, there would be infinite reward for our Torah and Mitzvos, but no negative consequences for out failures? Is that the position you are seeking to defend?
@ Nope
You wrote: “how many arguments against them in this thread and all of the previous ones – which I’m not about to go and start hoovering up and analyzing – are based on similar misrepresentations, misunderstandings, or (as above) flat-out lies”
No doubt a great many arguments are based on misrepresentations, misunderstandings, and lies. However that does not detract from a substantial number of well reasoned arguments and objections.
@ Chachmas Nashim and @ Yeshivaman613
Excellent posts. I would also add that R’ Itzel’s daughter, the Natziv’s wife also learned Gemara (including Yerushalmi).
@ Coffee Addict
The Prisha, R’ Itzel also knew the Rambam and Sh”A.
@ AAQ
I enjoy reading your thought-out and well articulated posts. You may already know this but I think it’s important to reiterate that what R’ Shteinzeltz’s wrote about the Tana R’ Eliezer where strongly condemned. For good reason.
@ Nope
שהוא יתברך עלת הכל, ואי אפשר לעלה שלא ישפיע, וכאילו הוא דבר מחויב…
You translated: “He is the Cause of everything, and it is *impossible* (emphasis mine) for a cause to not give forth; it is as though he is *required to do so…
Are you suggesting, per the above, that the Maharal supports a reading of Rashi where anthropomorphic terms referring to Hashem should be taken literally?
@ Qwerty
I also read Dr. Bergers book. It’s a good book. More people should read it.
@ qwerty613
I don’t have anti-Rebbe zingers. Coffee Addict’s joke trades on the asinine belief, held by a number of Lubavicher’s that the previous Lubavicher Rebbe was / is Moshiach. However
1) You will not find in my posts anything disrespectful towards the last Lubavicher Rebbe. Also,
2) It is the policy of the major kashrus organization to rely on Mashichist mashgichim. Even HaRav Aaron Feldman, who holds not to rely on them doesn’t claim it’s because they are avdei A”Z or founders of a new religion.@ coffee addict
That last post was classic
@ sechel83
If we are going to to go down this path let’s at least do it right.
Anyone can make true predictions some of the time.
It would be more relevant to ask did the Rebbe make predictions that turned out to be unambiguously false?
@ SomeJew
On this thread, I am trying to understand UJM’s point of view. He seems to say Pikuach Nefish would permit joining the IDF and that Zionism is not A”Z / Kfira. I am well aware what you have written about this. But, UJM, objected when I attributed your point of view to him. This could be because:
1) He doesn’t agree with you that Zionism is A”Z / Kfira, or
2) He does agree with you that Zionism is A”Z / Kfira bit since he hasn’t written that openly he objected to me attributing this view to him without evidenceHoping that he will clarify his position on this so we proceed with the conversation.
I did respond to one of your posts in the Lubavich / Zionism thread. That conversation got detailed into other unrelated matters.
@ UJM
Please try to keep your eye on the ball
The OP claimed that “All Jews are Forever Forbidden from the IDF”
I responded that there have been prominent poskim who instructed people to join
You posted that their reasoning is Pekuach Nefish (like eating trief and Chiilul Shabbos)
You also took umbrage with me saying that you hold Z is Kfira / A”Z
Based on the above, my understanding is:
1) you disagree with the OP and hold that in cases of Pekuach Nefish one should join the IDF
2) you disagree with the contention of HaKatan and SomeJew that Z has a halachic status of Kfira / A”ZThere are other ways to understand what you said as well. So, please clarify
@ somejew
“The core of zionism is heretical “self-determination” as THEY define it: a rejection of reliance on Hashem both in the gulis (galus) as well as to take us out of gulis.”
Since you obviously know that hishtadlus does not contradict reliance on Hashem. What your argument boils down cam be summed up in the following 4 steps:
1) Premise A. The 3 oaths preclude hishtadlus in establishing and perpetuating a Jewish State before the coming om Meshiach
2) Premise B. That the 3 oaths are binding today is obvious
3) Premise C. The rejection of what is obvious per the Torah is a Kfira.
4) Conclusion. Zionism, including R”Z, advocates hishtadlus in establishing and perpetuating a Jewish State before the coming om Meshiach therefore per the above it is Kfira.Note that for the Conclusion to be correct all 3 Premises must be true.
Let’s go one by one
Regarding Premise A. It is true that this was the Position of a number of Gedolei Yisroel. It has also been amply demonstrated in multiple posts that this is subject to dispute by other Gedolei Yisroel. YB and others have cited the Avnei Nezer. I have mentioned in a number of posts that HaRav Gedaliah Nadel personally enlisted in the IDF to fight during the 6 day war. Those are 2 of many solid examples.
Regarding Premise B. Your interaction with many posters on this forum should have provided you with more then sufficient evidence that what you claim to be obvious is not, in fact, obvious to most people. it is true that something which is clear to Rebbeim need not be obvious to the laity. That won’t help you here because this contention rests on the fact that a person who is making an error in a matter regarding which there is a consensus among the Rebbeim can ask them. That does not apply in our case since there is no consensus on this matter among Rebbeim.
That brings us to the heart of the matter. the position you advocate NECCESITATES that the opinion of the Satmar Rav actually represents the consensus of Gedolei Yisroel (past and present). You seem to understand that quite well which is why you opened a thread claiming that there is no detractors from the Satmar Rav’s opinion among Gedolei Yisroel. This is simply not the case.
Regarding Premise C. This premise is correct. I specifically worded it as a did since (as you have pointed out multiple times and I agree) we are discussing if a belief is Kfira not if people holding that belief are kofrim.
Since neither Premise A or Premise B has been established the Conclusion is not warranted
@ smerel
Nice Post!
@ Sechel83
Please clarify, are you affirming that BOTH of the following propositions are true?
1) Saying there is no Nevuah today is kfira
2) Saying there is no schar and onesh today is not kfira
@ UJM
“…to humor you, in order to even answer your potentially false question”I assume you meant to say false question.
If, as you say, you never claimed that Z is Kfira / A”Z I will have to take your word for it I don’t have your many posts memorized and if I wrongly attributed HaKatan’s or Somejew’s position to you then I apologize.
Next
You wrote: “first you’ll need to provide the specific names of the specific Gedolim, who told specific individuals who you can name for us right over here, to join the IDF”
I did exactly that. I named HaRav Gedaliah Nadel. He himself joined the IDF. Look him up.
@ UJM
Still waiting to hear how eminent Sefardi, Litvish, and Chasidish Poskim could Paskin to join the IDF under ANY circumstances if doing so = Kfira / AZ.
@ UJM
Are you looking into a Shiduch with the Bennet kids? Is that why you are interested in her shmira of Taharas Mishpacha?
Maybe review the Hazon Ish’s psak re: the tinok sh’nishba status of Hilonim.
@ SomeJew
You are very fond of quoting the Raavid in Hilchos Teshuva.
Either you don’t understand the Raavid or you don’t understand what you, yourself are writing. If Zionism is “obviously” Kfira / A”Z as you claim then the Raavid’s psak doesn’t help. The Raavid is davka talking about an Iker that he and the Rambam both agree is not obvious to everyone.
I don’t accept the Gemara in Sotah and the Rambam’s Igeres Taimon as positive proof texts for the acceptability of the belief that the last Lubavicher Rebbe was a Navi. Sorry.
Have you ever met anyone outside Chabbad that does?
@ HaKatan
“But only fools (or idolaters) claim that the Zionist victory was a miracle when it factually was a conventional military victory.”
Does someone pay you to post these things? If so, I hope they are paying very well. Come clean. How much do you get per each post of incoherent drivel?
Just to avoid “confusion” Drivel herein refers to:
1) HaKatan’s contention that only fools or idolators claim victory was a miracle
2) HaKatan’s definition of the words “facts” and “obvious” that conforms to no competent use of these terms save only how they are used by a government ministry engaging in a propaganda campaign@ Simcha613
I think the correct answer to your question is “none of the above”
@ UJM
“There are, also, examples of Sefardi, Litvish, and Chasidish Poskim who have instructed people to eat treif food. Or to kill someone. Or to drive on Shabbos. Or to r’l amputate a limb. Or to eat chometz on Pesach. Sometimes it is permitted or required.”
You know what no Poskim ever instructed? To participate in Kfira and A”Z
For the record, I don’t agree with your analogy. But that’s besides the point
@ Seychel83
“Don’t make fun as if there is no nevuah if you haven’t learned basics in this sugya”
Learning the basics in a sugya, any sugya starts with Chazal and Rishonim. But that’s probably not what you had in mind, right?
Also, how do you know he hasn’t learned the basics? Wait…I know. Because he disagrees with what Chabbad has to say on the matter, right?
The OP is a fallacy. There were and are Sefardi, Litvish, and Chasidish Poskim who have instructed people to join the IDF.
An example of a prominent Posek who, himself enlisted Is Rabbi Gedalia Nadel.
The OP has a hard time distinguishing between public policy declarations / polemics and actual psakim given to people who ask shailos to their Rebbeim.
@ AAQ
“there would have been a large socialist caliphate – from the river Nile to the Caspian sea, maybe even joining USSR.”
Exactly. Per an extensive report, published by MINITRUE, such a calaphite would be a wonderful place to live. The very embodiment of justice, security, religious tolerance, and a thriving economy that will benefit all its citizens.
@ ZSK
You misunderstood my post(s). Google Emanuel Goldstien
“You wrote: Again, your idolatry of Zionism is not letting you think clearly….Nobody said anything about the Arabs taking over.”
Right Why would any reasonable person think that Arabs would take over if the State of Israel is disbanded? Many none-arab nations are currently running peaceful, multi-cultural countries in the Middle East. One of them could administer the land of Israel.
@ KGN
No. Judaism is clearly at war with RL. We have always been at war with RZ! Those who claim otherwise are mislead by falsehoods propagated by arch-zionist Emanuel Goldstein.
@ HaKatan and Somejew
Your comments are double plus good! Judaism is at war with Religious Zionism. We have ALWAYS been at war with Religious Zionism!!
@ HaKatan
“The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews…The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad
Right. Back in the alta heim all yidden where shomer Torah and Mitzvot. And in American there is isn’t and never was any assimilation whatsoever. It’s only the the Zionist entity that drives assimilation / secularism. Got it.
You may want to take a peek at the demographic trends in Israel. Then again, probably not. Carry on.
@ somejew
How does someone who needs an Artscroll to learn Gemara manage to have such strong, clear opinions on complex matters relating to derech HaPsak and Ikrei Emuna?
I’m not voting because:
1) My Rabbonim hold not to vote
2) I can’t, in good faith, affirm allegiance to the WZO platformThat being said, I would like to understand on what grounds joining the WZO is permitted. If someone on this forum received an actual hesber (not a silly tzu shtel to political elections) please share.
@ YB
It’s funny that you get called a Zionist after making your position on the matter crystal clear in multiple posts.
@ somejew
You wrote: My opening post was a long explanation of my understanding and open ended question for response about the Torah’s system of psak and halacha. as mentioned, I didn’t see anyone challenge it.
It seems most respondents didn’t see, in what you outlined, the Torah system of psak and halacha
@ AAQ
You wrote: At the basic level, if you put aside history of animosity between different groups, what would be your problem with the state?
Why are you asking him this? Isn’t it clear that from his point of view there are at least 2 things wrong with the state
1) It is forbidden to make a state before Moshiach comes
2) You are joining in an enterprise with people who are using the said enterprise to replace authentic Yidishkeit with NationalismI’m not saying that there are no responses to the above 2 points but HaKatan has been very clear and consistent regading where he stands on this, no?
As an aside, it is worth mentioning that when secular Zionists made clear that their agenda was not merely practical statehood but proactive shmad it was Rav Kook himself who said that the Rebbonim would have to downplay the importance of E”Y (like Chazal did with the Eserah Dibros due to terumos haminim).
HaKatan has knocked out the R”Z strawman in the first round and the crowd goes wild
@ ZSK
“I asked you to define Mesorah as a term”
Good luck with that
@ somejew
You wrote: “I would rather speak about psak and torah”
We have been waiting with baited breath, spanning multiple threads, for you to start doing that
@ ZSK
You wrote: “What I disagree with in this thread (and in the threads about Zionism, the IDF, etc.) is the blatant disrespect and character assassination the Chassidish and Yeshivish communities continue to engage in vis a vis MO and RZ communities and their Rabbonim.”
I grew up in a MO community and also lived in Bet-El for a bit and learned with a talmid from R’ Melamid’s Yeshiva. What you describe has not been my experience. I heard (and hear) a good amount of derision from both sides. To a certain extent, this is by design. The tool to effectively shape and rally public opinion has always been rhetoric, not logic, v’hamaivin, yavin, (For those who will accuse me of ascribing Greek methods to Rebbonim, I refer them to the Ramchal’s Sefer Malitza.)
The original source for the statement from R’ Meir Simcha of Dvinsk is a letter on behalf of Keren HaYesod
The original source for the statement from R’ Meir Simcha of Dvinsk is a letter on behalf of Keren HaYesod
@ Square Root
Here you go:
רמב”ן השמטות לספר המצוות להרמב”ם, מצוה ד’
רבי מאיר שמחה מדווינסק הובא הרב מ. כשר מספרו התקופה הגדולה עמ’ קע”ה
@ HaKatan
You are misquoting me. I did not claim that “no poskim bring the 3 oaths as Halacha.” I did ask you you to provide citations for your claims so that the specific points made can be addressed in the context of this post.
@ Ramban
ולא נעזבה ביד זולתינו מן האומות או לשממה, והוא אומרו להם:
‘והורשתם את הארץ וישבתם בה כי לכם נתתי את הארץ לרשת
אותה’- הרי נצטווינו בכיבוש כל הדורות.It [the land] won’t be forsaken in the hands of other
nations nor won’t be destroyed, and it says ‘And you
shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I
have assigned the land to you to possess.” We see that
we are commanded in conquering it in all generations.@ The Satmar Rav, V’Yoel Moshe
ויש טפשים האומרים שיען שהיה בהסכמת רוב האומות אין כאן
לא איסור שבועה ולא איסור העברה על הקץ, וכל כך גבר
החשכות וסמיות העינים שנפל על העולם לטעות בדברי הבלים
כאלו.There are fools that are saying that since there was an
agreement amongst most of the nations there is no
longer an Oath nor a prohibition of forcing the end.
This darkness and blindness has increased so much
that people are mistakenly following these words of
vanity.I will leave it to Hakatan, Somejew, and UJM to explain this passage in v’Yoel Moshe in light of the quote from R’ Meir Simcha HaKohen of Dvinsk.
Also, maybe they can shed light on why we should give greater weight to what the Satmar Rav wrote vs what R’ Meir Simcha wrote. In the meantime I will go watch some paint dry as I listen to the sweet chirping of crickets
@ R’ Meir Simcha HaKohen of Dvinsk
אמנם כעת הסבה ההשגחה, אשר באספת הממלכות הנאורות בסאן
רעמא ניתן צו אשר ארץ ישראל תהיה לעם ישראל. וכיון שסר
פחד השבועות, וברשיון המלכים קמה מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל
ששקולה כנגד על המצוות שבתורה למקומה, מצוה על כל איש
לסייע בכל יכלתו לקיים מצוה זו.However, now providence has arranged, that through
the gathering of the great nation is San Remo a
mandate was made Israel belongs to the Jews. And
since the fear of the Oaths are gone, and with
permission of the nations comes the Mitzvah of
resettling Israel…..Re: my question about Yoma 9B.
Pnei Yehoshua (on Ketubot 111a) points out that Yoma 9b implies the opposite – that the redemption did not come because the Jews did not ascend as a wall. And since these two aggadic sources contradict each other, we must understand them in some other, non-halakhic way. (From footnotes on a shiur from R’ Eliezer Melamed).
I guess HaKatan got me on “just being lazy”
@ HaKatan
Your laziness to look at VaYoel Moshe or elsewhere is not an excuse for insinuating that others are making things up. See this post here, on these very boards, for example: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/refuting-the-three-oaths-gimel-shevuot#post-2266950
I did read that post, and other posts on that thread. You got trounced over there as well.