Forum Replies Created
Yes! It’s painful to read through the comments. I’m not even saying that the postings have to be perfect but many of them are horrible.
mdd – In research, it’s well known that association doesn’t infer cause & effect. Many things changed in the world at that time, not just the beginings of the zionistic movement. In case anyone doesn’t recall, at the same time there were 2 world wars, the collapse of several empires, the creation of “mandates” to control the lands that were won, the industrial revolution, women’s rights, freeing of slaves, the christian religion layed off on their conquest of the world, and a few other things. Most importantly, the moslems in their Koran and their history say it the best themselves. The moslem agression (read: murder and control of everyone under their control) begand over 1,400 years ago! Read here for a proper history (not some YWN commenter’s self-created version).
No links. Sorry.February 6, 2013 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927212
It’s actually funny – I just gave a ride home to a very sweet chareidi man on my home from a wedding. He was tremping on the side of the road and was going to the same city as I was. Anyway, he’s a very nice guy and has 12 children. He works as a security guard in various areas and was lamenting about how hard it is to support his family with this kind of salary. You could tell that he works very hard (it was about 11pm when I picked him up and he’d been working all day). We talked about him getting another job but he acknowledged that he can’t find anything that would pay enough with his lack of a good secular education. I kid you not – it’s funny that I just met him tonight especially since I never give tremps to people anymore (too dangerous) but his security uniform somehow reassured me. Anyway, bottom line, this is a common story here – there are many chareidi people who work very hard and still can’t bring home a respectable salary. It’s not fair to them because the chareidi leadership and society creates this dilema for them. Yes, you could tell that he’s a happy person but he’s suffering and was upset that he can’t even afford to take off time from work to go to school in order to get a better job. This was an older man too (I’d say in his 50s or 60s).
I’ll repeat what I said a few days ago – I am not trying to put down anyone but I also think there are many good people who are being put into a horrible and unsustainable situation. Provide your kids and yourself with a basic secular education so that you can work at a decent job and be able to hold your head high, provide for your family and not have to resort to government handouts or tzedaka.February 6, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927207
Confucious – “Stop repeating that canard” that the chareidim work but it’s just that the system is stacked against them! They are the ones who created the system by insisting that they won’t get a basic secular education, they won’t serve in the army OR A NATIONAL SERVICE PROGRAM (i.e. a chesed program!!!), they won’t vote for anyone who helps set up a realistic economical system but they will instead vote for parties that will give them “free money.” At the end of the day, there’s no such thing as a free lunch! Get a real secular education and follow the rules of the country you live in. Get a job that can actually pay your bills (just like the Chafetz Chaim did, Rambam did, Abarbanel did, Moshe Rabbeinu did, Yaakov Avinu did, Avraham Avinu did, etc.) our gedolim of our history didn’t take money for being gedolim and spreading Torah. They certainly didn’t instruct the Jewish people to learn instead of working and then live off of everyone’s charity and government handouts.
DaasYochid – I agree with you that there are intolerant people on all sides. However, we are the G-d fearing religious ones. That brings more responsibility on us. Interesting (and unbelievably beautiful) thing about Judaism: In Judaism we don’t hold by the concept that I have rights or “something that I deserve.” Instead, we talk about our obligations. In other words, you don’t have the right to be treated with respect. Instead, it’s my responsibility to treat you with respect. This concept is a game-changer. We must always think about our responsibilities toward others and toward Hashem, not about our rights. I have the responsibility NOT to take money that isn’t mine or meant for me. It’s NOT that I deserve the money and it’s just a matter of me taking it because it should have been mine anyways.
superme – yes, that’s the beauty of Hashem’s Torah world – we are all different and with different minhagim. Shiv’im panim laTorah. The problem is that when we close our minds so tightly, we become stubborn as a people to see another side to the story. As many people have noted – the chareidi society has developed this way as a way to protect the people and the Torah. From that standpoint it’s a good thing but there has been a cost that should not be ignored. Judaism does not advocate a life of poverty like the non-Jews believe with monks & nuns. Hashem gives us halachot on how to earn a respectful living and He also gives us economic rules in the world that we must follow. In other words, if Hashem tells us that these are the ways to earn a decent living for our families in 2013, then we need to take that to heart. We can see this from each of the Avot and Gedolim throughout our history – they all studied and worked. Again, this doesn’t mean we should just work and still live in poverty because our jobs don’t earn enough. It’s our mandatory hishtadlus to look into the facts of how to earn a respectable living and strive toward that.February 4, 2013 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927187
I also can’t accept this concept that ‘Hashem will provide as long as I have done my hishtadlus in trying to earn a living’ but then you turn around & do a substandard hishtadlus in trying to earn that living. Yes, our hishtadlus has to be based on the facts of life that Hashem has set up for us and not doing so means that you’re doing a substandard hishtadlus.
Another mashal (I know you may not agree but it’s still useful to illustrate the point) – A person is not allowed to say that I’m doing my hishtadlus by taking my medication once in a while and it’s up to Hashem to take care of me from there. You have to truly do your full, proper hishtadlus. It’s interesting – let’s draw from Rambam. He certainly did get a proper education in both secular & Jewish studies. He provided medical advice to his patients knowing full well that it’s really Hashem that will heal them, not the medication or treatment. None-the-less, it was his job to fully abide by the rules of healthcare known to him at that time and it was the job of the patients to truly follow through on the treatment. Only then could both doctor and patient say they did their fullest hishtadlus and feel good knowing that
Hashem will then take care of them.February 4, 2013 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927186
EY Mom – you say “chareidim work!! I work, and so does my husband. But we still do not cross the threshold of having to pay income tax.”
That’s entirely my point – even when chareidim work, they still don’t (usually) pass the threshold for paying taxes. There’s a reason for that – because there’s a lack of basic secular education that is statistically proven to increase income. There’s a system and culture in place now that creates this problem and it’s a cyclical problem! The system needs to change in order for chareidi families to be able to work and support their families properly.
You can’t fairly say that I insist on getting a limited secular education, knowing full well that this means there’s a statistically proven likelihood that I won’t earn enough to properly support my family. I’ll then just claim that I’m doing the best I can and it’s the job of the government and all of the people around me to make up he difference. To me, that’s the same thing as a diabetic not taking his medication that is statistically proven to help. He then just claims that he’s doing the best he can & he’s learning Torah so it’s the government and everyone else’s job to make up the difference. This is an abuse of the safety net system that was set up to help poor & disabled people.
A mashal is not supposed to prove something – it’s meant to open your mind to another perspective by comparing the situation to something else. Sometimes it’s helpful to take a step back and see things from a different angle.
On a second note, the CR is an awful place to try to prove or convince anyone of anything. That’s because the people who post here are by-and-large stubborn people who already made up their minds. My belief is that it’s still important to share thoughts because some things just need to be said in order to open people’s minds to the idea that maybe there is another perspective out there. Unfortunately, I have found that the chareidi world, as a whole, has closed its mind so tightly that we have lost all perspective – there’s only one right way & I’ve got the monopoly on it! “Even” the great Torah scholars of our Mishnah, Gemara, etc understood & accepted the idea that it’s perfectly OK for others to disagree with me.
Yes, I already said it’s not a perfect mashal/nimshal but there’s still a very valid point here.
I find it interesting that when it came to the diabetic man’s story no one would think to say that the man should not take the medication just because there are some side effects. Every medication has side effects but that doesn’t mean you don’t take them. Yes, you can talk to your doctor about choices of medications (choose methods of secular education – like in a yeshiva vs public school setting; should you teach evolution based on a Jewish perspective vs avoid it altogether; etc)
Also, when it comes to the doctor recommending a particular treatment, it’d be inappropriate to rely entirely on your Rav’s medication simply because he’s not a doctor. A good Rav will understand that he’s not a doctor & doesn’t know medicine well enough to decide. You wanna ask a Rav for his opinion – OK, but that doesn’t detract from what the doctor told you. This is not a question of asking “bigger doctors” because the facts are the facts – Hashem has told us all of the mitzvot regarding work & bussiness for a reason – and that is, to work!
Two more facts – a good percentage of the chareidi population earns below the poverty line. That’s what makes them eligible for all kinds of government handouts (that they very often then complain about – see the story above). It’s also a fact that statistically you make more money when you have more of an education. Yes, I have read several anecdotes of families who make it work somehow by living simply. However, this is not common. More often than not, the families are stressed by the financial burdens and then they must get the extra funding from others – there are several sources of that “extra funding”: government handouts (my $$ from taxes), yeshiva scholarships (my $$ from increased tuition), reduced taxes such as arnona in Israel and/or minimal income taxes in US & Israel (again, my $$ in increased taxes), Tzedaka (more of my $$), etc.
Point is, I think it’s important to take the overall picture into consideration, not just the feeling that faith in Hashem will solve all of my problems – just like with the diabetic, Hashem wants us to do our hishtadlus & sometimes we need to see that Hashem sends us different messengers – sometimes a doctor & sometimes a Rav and sometimes both.February 3, 2013 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927177
I just have to chime in on this topic – please see my new CR topic “The Diabetic Man’s Plight” for my thoughts.
By the way, the basic kupot cholim are NOT free. If you are working on a “tlush” (getting a regular salary from a company), then you pay for it off the top of your paycheck. Otherwise, you must pay directly. I don’t know how it works if you are in kollel – maybe they get it free? Also, not sure if you earn below a certain amount, maybe it’s free then too.
Thanks everyone for your responses – now for the controversial part. Please take this as food for thought and NOT as an attack on anyone or any group of people!
Please re-read my original post and think about this: This is actually the story of the chareidi plight.
I understand this is not the perfect mashal/nimshal but… The diabetes is lack of basic secular education. The complications from the diabetes is poverty & associated problems. The medication is basic secular education & working for a living. The doctor is everyone who emphasizes basic secular education and working for a living.
As snowbunny said: “The doctor was acting as Hashem’s messenger”
As 147 said: “go & learn your Chumosh, and then observe it.” (the Torah is full of halachot of working, businness and statements about there not being Torah if there isn’t work, etc)
As Torah613 said: “Crazy story. If true, very sad, and I wonder why his family / Rabbi let it happen”
As wanderingchana said: “…could have been prevented by recognizing that doctors/psychiatrists are Hashem’s shluchim.”
As oomis said: “…we must also do our own histadlus to merit Hashem’s Divine intervention.”