Richmond Braun

Neville,
“Sadly, this discussion transcends the YWN coffeeroom. There is this whole website dedicated to making exactly the types of arguments we’re seeing here that I came across. There is a major constituency of people who want to argue all eruvin are inherently kosher and twist Reb Moshe’s words to sound like even he would agree. Rest assured, you haven’t gone insane; all the things you are saying are the normative shittah.”

Sorry, but no one argued that all eruvin are inherently kosher. Each city or neighborhood has to be paskened on seperately, based on its unique properties.

In fact, take rabbi hershel shachter of the OU, he holds that Manhattan is NOT a reshus harrabim while his summer town, Tannersville, NY IS a reshus harabim (assuming we don’t go by the 600,000 criterion).

youdontsay,
Thank you.
As for #6, I meant it for good measure.
Especially since Ocean County has more than 600,000 and who knows how RMB would reckon Lakewood limits? He might have said that since one can continue through streets from Lakewood to Howell and so on perhaps throughout the whole county then it’s all one. Besides, being that Rt 9 runs through the city, and it surely “services” 600000, he might deem all streets mfulashim to rt 9 from one side and to some other highway from the other and all become public domain. However, all I wrote about RMB is my own surmising as I have not studied his shitah properly as of late. So if I’m wrong than I repent.

Neville,
Since you do seem to be clear yourself about Rav Moshe’s shittah, let me ask you a few questions or riddles and we’ll see if you can answer them without looking them up first (we’ll take your word for that):
1) Which Volume and Siman is the teshuva about Flatbush and which about Boro Park?
2) What are the facts and statistics that Rav Moshe states and upon which he bases his prohibition?
3) What did Rav Dovid ben Rav Moshe pasken regarding West Rogers Park (I wonder if you know where that is without searching)?
4) In what respect is West Rogers Park equal or different than Brooklyn?
5) In what respect is Kew Gardens Hills equal or different than Brooklyn?
6) How can there be even the neighborhood eruvin in Lakewood today, if according to Rav Aharon (as well as Rav Moshe Weissman, Rav Bick, Rav Soloveitchik x2, and on and on) most of them are reshus harabim?
7) How can some chasidim who emigrated from Boro Park (where they don’t use the eruv) to Linden and its environs suddenly be able to establish an eruv which wouldn’t work according to all the poskim in question 6?
8) Why are people when they’re in Flatbush they wouldn’t use the eruv yet when they’re, say, in Baltimore they’re happy to use one – being that practically the only posek that would distinguish between them is Rav Moshe?

youdontsay,
I found an old post of yours which states:
“You see an oral explanation cannot be in direct contradiction to a written teshuvah. The fact is Rav Moshe maintained that an eruv cannot be erected in any part of an area of 12 mil by 12 mil containing a population of approximately 3 million. Therefore, it is irrelevant (based on Rav Moshe’s teshuvos) if an area encompassing such a population consisted of individual neighborhoods, since an eruv cannot be erected in any part of this area. Sorry, Rav Moshe could not have made such a distinction.”

Now, when you say that one can make in a subsection of Brooklyn, does that mean A) even when Brooklyn would meet the 12×12 mil criterion, or B) only when it would not (which you state it doesn’t – just like KGH doesn’t). If you’ll say A) then you’re contradicting what you wrote in the old post I referenced.

I would like to share a discussion I had on another site.
Someone said his rav suggests he doesn’t visit BP on Shabbos so not to witness chilul shabbos by frum people i.e. carrying with their eruv.
To which I replied:
Well, according to this silliness, perhaps you shouldn’t visit Chicago or Cincinatti, Detroit or Denver, Toronto or Montreal, LA or Lakewood, NJ. as most of them are RESHUS HARRABIM D’ORAYSA ACCORDING TO RAV AHARON KOTLER, RAV AHARON SOLOVEITCHIK, HIS BROTHER RAV YOSHE BER, RAV YAAKOV KAMENETZKY, RAV MOSHE WEISMAN OF YETZIOS HASHABOS, RAV MOSHE BICK, THE MISHKENOS YAAKOV (forgive my order not according to proper kavod) and others. Ella mai, they have their poskim? Well Boro Park also has its poskim whom they follow and they have no obligation to follow even Rav Moshe who purportedly assers. Especially when they feel that it does satisfy Rav Moshe’s criteria.
I don’t recall anywhere that if Bais Shammai married off a tzaras habas to a yavam, that Bais Hillel wouldn’t attend, saying: “how can we attend a chasuna of chiyuv kares?!”
ודי בזה לחכימא ברמיזא ובזה אחתום ושלום יהי’ לנו ולכל ישראל עד העולם אמן

Avira,
Fact is MOST chasidishe poskim DID approve. Even those who didn’t are mostly for political reasons vd”l. The reason you got the impression you did is because of propaganda of the anti camp.

Edited
The simple proof is that most of them have or had house or block eruvs which wouldn’t work according to the litvishe who really hold against. Then when it became a normal city eruv with a good hechsher suddenly they oppose. Politics. Period. There’s much more to say. Do your homework.

Neville,
You’re right, i might have meant other commenters while replying to you.
Anyway, if one reads the teshuvos they can see the mechanism rav moshe works with and the factors he bases his issur or heter on. Therefore, if one sees a certain situation matches any given factors they can issue a ruling on that basis. It doesn’t make a difference what Rav Moshe paskened then assur for such and such city, if the factors known to us match KGH. People just can’t seem to get this through their head.
Just as a possible example: (please don’t focus on the details of this case, just the concept i’m trying to share) say, a woman asks a rav about a chicken and he paskens trayf. Now, say this chicken falls into a pot that has shishim, and her husband tells her, okay, we can now consume the whole pot. So she insists, what do you mean?! The rav clearly said its trayf! What’s the difference WHERE it fell in! Well, anyone can see that it’s stupid to say such a thing, for the rav only paskened based on the factors he knew, namely, that the chicken is standing alone. However, after it gets mixed into taaruves, if she would ask him, he may be matir based on the current factors.
Same for Brooklyn eruv and Rav Moshe.
If anybody out there still can’t wrap their heads around this then it’s just too bad.

Neville,
As for the second part of your post, the point is that if you hold that Brooklln and Manhattan have issue even according to Rashi’s opinion (due to 600,000 inhabitants), then you’ve got the same issue in Baltimore and Chicago and others. Rav Moshe would actually be a yechida’ah opinion then by being mekil for those cities. However, if we assume like most poskim that Rashi’s shitah WOULD work for Chicago and Boston (because we need 600,000 traversing on at least a single street) then it works equally for Brooklyn & Manhattan.
Anyway, there are other factors to be lenient besides for Rashi. Do you homework.

Thanx, Neville,
There was and is no “minhag” in this issue. Why didn’t this “minhag” disrupt the KGH eruv? The Chicago one? The Boston one? Each of which had people who disliked it.

The “minhag” in Europe was always to make. The minhag in America was that many rabbanim over the past seven decades tried to make. Some succeeded. Some didn’t.

Thanks, Neville.
By the way, please check your history. Both the Flatbush and the BP eruv (in its first gilgul) were established while Rav Moshe was alive and well. Additionally, what’s this fabricated “waiting till the gadol dies” which you repeat (but didn’t invent), if Rav Moshe states clearly black on white numerous times in plain lashon kodesh, both in his manhattan and brooklyn teshuvos, that the rabbanim have a right to pasken and make an eruv and do not have to follow his psak, then why are people frummer than him and condemning those who don’t follow him? Additionally, why, for heaven’s sake, must one follow his fellow’s rav if he has his own?

Sorry, but please make a list of poskim (and I mean poskim, not Roshei Yeshiva who never issued a halachic ruling) first and we’ll see who is majority. Besides who says one must follow majority in this issue? Especially since Rav Moshe is against most gedolei acharonim, POSKIM, of the past few generations. Even more, being that Rav Moshe stated clearly his shitah, and if somebody feels he fits Rav Moshe’s shitah then he is not going against him.

Thanx. I have no patience to write here the nitty gritty but but R’ Moshe aside, according to the others quoted to asser, namely Rabbis Bick Belsky Kotler zatzal and more, according to all of them what I wrote is correct. Even if it would work according to Rav Moshe, where did the d’oraysa disappear to if it is one according to the rabbis I mentioned? Oh, because you rely on Rav Moshe? Well those Brooklyn have many great rabbanim of this generation to rely on, as well as many gedolei acharonim of yesteryear.
As for RAv Moshe Feinstein, I implore you to learn his own words and tell me a coherent heter for Queens. In short, did anyone ever sit down with a map and city records as to whether KGH isn’t part of a 12×12 mil area of 3,000,000?

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