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I believe the age 20 is correct for Dinei Shamayim. I don’t know what the N”B says, but it is certainly cited in other sources.
But through therapy or some kind of treatment he’ll be able to stop doing that and not be a danger to others
Yehuda Tzvi, the teen is NOT a monster, what he did was monstrous. If in fact he is a victim himself and that is what motivated him to act out then he is a child in pain acting out of pain and also a child in need of help. If this was his first offense then he is a child who can still be helped and stopped early on from becoming a career molester and abuser.
If all you want to do is label him a monster then all you will accomplish is to allow him to be that monster with no hope in stopping him from “wanting” to harm anyone in the future. The point is can this teen be helped and will he agree to be helped. If he will agree and he can be helped then he is NOT a monster and you can’t fault a child who is himself a victim. You can fault the person who victimized him and lock him up, label him the monster and publicize his name!!!!!
If the teen refuses treatment or refuses to cooperate then you should do everything in your power to warn others. But please do not ignore the fact that you do have people who have been in the business of protecting children from molesters for a very long time and have taught not only the community you live in but have taught and trained others how to keep their own communities safe. Use the resources you have at your own fingertips and don’t be a vigilante branding your own form of justice.
Call Debbie Fox and have your friends call Debbie Fox at Aleinu and speak to them to find out what to do. If you don’t call them then you are no better than those you accuse. You do not have the experience nor the knowledge how to handle the situation, how to judge what happened or what to do about it and they do. They will know how to keep the neighborhood safe, how to organize the community, shuls, schools, etc. and they will come in and speak to everyone.
From age 13 to 20 (boy) or 12-20 (girl), all halachos of adulthood apply. The exception is the implementation of onshin. No one in their right mind exempted them from issurim. If you read that in my comments, re-read them.
Therapy has some benefit to a molester. However, to date, no one has ever been able to demonstrate that treatment reduces the risk of recurrent events of molestation to zero. That suggests that there should be treatment, but that we still cannot depend on it with regards to safety for other children.
Rabbi Yehoshua Kaganoff has asked that the following be posted:
BELOW is the table of contents to my recently published Sefer (in English) that has an entire section (pg 281) on pedophiles & what the Torah really says to do about them.
also BELOW is a synapsis of the OU’s endorsement letter to the sefer. the original letter from the OU is available upon request
please Give this information to the families involved; they can either order the Sefer from me at the below contacts OR They can call me for Psak Halocho & guidance. If I don’t answer my line it’s because I’m helping others. they should please leave a message & a call back number
Sincerely,
Rabbi Kaganoff
edited
The Sefer (hard copy) is 462 pages, the vast majority is in English. Or an expanded edition (500 pages) is in electronic pdf form only.
August 2, 2012
We recommend this pioneering work to all who toil in the vineyards of the Jewish community.
Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, PhD
Executive Vice President, Emeritus
Orthodox Union
Rabbi Menachem Genack Rabbinic Administrator/CEO OU Kosher
Addictions:
Halocho, Hashkofo and Causes
PREFACE
Haskomos/Approbations. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9
Forward . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
Letter to a Rabbi of Integrity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
Letter to the Rebbitzen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25
FOOD ADDICTION
Food Addiction and Shabbos Seudos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29
Food Addiction & the Pesach Seder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Oat Bran . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .40
OA, TLC and Binah Magazine. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48
Food Addiction Teshuvos
Oatmeal & Wholewheat patties. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59
Brocho on Wheatsquares. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .64
Oat Bran in Halocho . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67
Correspondence with Rav Belsky and Rav Heineman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71
Oat Matzohs – Correspondence with Rav Westheim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75
RECOVERY
Halachic Parameters of Addictions & Pikuach Nefesh/Refuah . . . . . . . . . . . . 83
Proposal for an In-Patient Jewish Rehab. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95
Halachic and Hashkafic Challenges in Recovery: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100
Anger at Hashem. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101
Pesach Cleaning. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .103
Tefilla Priorities. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 109
Are the 12 steps Kosher. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .115
What is Spirituality. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 118-148
Prayer at 12 Step Recovery Meetings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150
Kneeling. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 161
Terminology – 12-step Recovery to Mental Health Profession . . . . . . . . . . . .165
Chazon Ish Letter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .186
Rav Tzadok HaCohein – Resisei LoyLa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 187
Introduction. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .193
Practical SA Shaalos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 195
Interview with Binah Magazine. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 197
DOMESTIC ABUSE
Halachic Parameters of Abuse. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 235
The Selection of a Bais Din. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 243
Domestic Abuse Teshuvos
When am I Exempt from Reporting Abuse? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 251
Custody in Abuse Situations. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .271
Molester/Pedophile Teshuvos
RJJ Journal of Halacha. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 281
Letter to Moetzes of Agudas Israel & Rejoinder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 285
Halachic Parameters of Molestation. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 293
Support Documents; Research Papers
Letter to Yated. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .361
Dong 2003- Universal capacity of impairment of abuse, neglect,
and household dysfunction during childhood . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 367
Food as bad as drugs. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 416
Danieli – Intergenerational Transmission of PTSD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .429
HaModiah -Children of the Lager. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .451
The Chosen People . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .467
yehudahtzvi: This thread is really not making me think very highly of you.
“The Torah does not punish people based on predictive thinking of how he will act in the future.”
Did you do shnayim mikra, at least until sheini this week, yet?
apy: Only where the Torah specifically and directly authorizes it for a situation. It can’t be deduced to elsewhere. And even there, it is the Torah saying what will happen; not some man making a prediction.
If you really want to apply the Torah and carry out justice, show up in court October 30 in support of the victim of an adult molester, repeat offender, who is responsible for his actions!
Because you are calling a poor 15 year old kid who was probably molested by his rebbi in 3rd grade a “monster”.
You are angry at the wrong person.
Like I said, this thread is not making me think very highly of you.
Popa
Monster or not he is 15 and raped a 6 year old girl. Call him what you want but obviously he cant control himself. If she was your sister you would call him a lot worse than monster but since it didnt happen to your family or anyone you know it doesnt upset you that much. Yehuda Tzvi is actively involved in this thing and as he said had to console the girls father. Why should anyone give a darn what you think of him.
I for one think very highly of him and commend him for trying so hard to do whats right. If more people were like him thered be less problems in our society.
No, WIY, thinking of him as a “monster” is not a victimless crime either. The way we think of people affects the way we act towards them. The kid needs to be stopped, but he does not need to be punished–like many in this thread have suggested.
YehudahTvzi: I am the one who found you a contact, called him up and asked permission to post his phone number here, and did so. I care about this-I just care about all the parties, not just the obvious ones.
I do commend you for getting involved, but I am horrified at your attitude about it. Like I suggested in a previous post, why don’t you just lock up the 6 year old victim also before she has a chance to do the same thing to another kid when she’s 15?
Those of us who wish to send the perpetrator to a wasteland would be more than happy if he was living somewhere and getting help with the promise of NEVER EVER EVER being around children. Those of you who ridiculously think we are victimizing the perpetrator, are only asking for his freedom and safety, not a word has come from your mouths about agreeing he should be kept away from others. If you PROMISE me you will never leave him unattended, than I don’t give a darn who he is cuz I know my kids are safe. You want him free and unidentified and are offerring NOTHING to protect the kids. That is confusing to me.
Folks,
Just a suggestion-
Take a step back and depersonalize your disagreements.
Whether or not you end up agreeing with each other, it will allow this to be discussed more civilly, and is probably a good idea in mid-Elul, too.
</lecture>
ICOT – I agree and I was hoping to have contributed to that process thru clarification. I wonder though, how personalization could bring anyone to the side of the perpetrator. A question I have always pondered. Especially knowing how the other side developed their bias.
NEW IDEA:
All sex offenders are listed online in a state registry. There are sites and blogs which will make this info public. for example the awareness center.
Also if he was convicted of a sex crime there are legal limits to how close he can get to children esp his victims.
You might want to speak to a Rav before you talk to the authorities or post his info on blog. You do have resources.
They want me to be nice.
Aries: I think your posts in this thread are very good and sensible.
Whoever said they’re speaking up for the victim not the abuser…I’m not speaking up for the abuser. I was a victim myself. I know what the pains like. I know what the life-long effects are. Been there. Done that. Still in treatment. But I do know that the 11 year old boys who did it to me didn’t do it for not good reason. They must’ve had something happen to them.
aries and PBA I’m in full agreement with you.
OP I’m disgusted by your attitude. You can protect children all you want but what kind of person labels the poor boy a monster??!!
Thank you, mischiefmaker.
You’ve said all that needs to be said about this issue.
Yehuda Tzvi, we all feel your pain and understand it. The point you make about other adult “monsters” is not and applicable comparison because in this case a child abuser has been caught at the start of his career and can still be rehabilitated. He cannot be considered a monster until which time it is determined that his act was premeditated and planned, and that his intention was to satisfy his own need while knowing that he was intentionally harming his victim. That would be a monster at any age. Since you do not know the story behind the child molester’s actions you might feel that he is a monster, and I will agree with you that his actions to this young child were monstrous and devastating but I can’t agree to label him a monster until such time that it is determined that his intention was evil and that he is not a victim himself acting out on what was done to him.
I commend the parents of the girl for calling the authorities, I commend he authorities for taking proper action and the court for doing the same. I also commend th boy”s parents for being parents and doing whatever they can for heir son and I encourage them to help him reveal the truth and get the help he needs. I encourage the parents and the son to recognize the severity of his actions and to show sincere remorse and do whatever is necessary for the victim and the parents to heal from this utter violation of them.
I commend you, Yehuda Tzvi for your generosity of heart and soul, getting involved as you did and recognizing that the professionals need to handle the situation. We really need to understand that with such a seriously delicate situation we can make it worse for a victim when we don’t have the proper knowledge and experience, and our mistakes can cause the victim more pain and trauma. What you can do for yourself as well as your friends is to offer them whatever support they need from you during this difficult period. Also since you know the Rav is speak to your Rav about him going to the boy’s parents, him not you, to encourage them to get whatever therapy their son needs and to make sure he has a shomer 24/7 until he is cured from this disease.
Threatening the parents is not going to help the situation. Offering support to the boys parents whether in getting him therapy, or providing the shomrim will lessen their burden and sense of horror as well as being overwhelmed by the entire situation. This is something only the Rabbonim in the neighborhood can do, and most likely they would only trust the Rabbonim with this issue. But that might be one thing Debbie Fox will do so you won’t have to. I am only making the suggestion because it seems that you need to do something.
On an aside you asked who I was referring to in reference the October 30case. That would be the case of edited, who is charged with horrendous crimes of molestation against a high school girl over a period of three years. The student was threatened with expulsion if she didn’t see this untrained, unlicensed counselor. The school did not even check to see if he took precautions against having yichud with the young girls. After three years of forcing the parents to pay this menuval, and the child being abused by him, the school expelled her anyway and while speaking to the guidance counselor in her new school, she revealed what had happened with her prior counselor. As a mandatory reporter the guidance counselor immediately called the authorities. After two years of schlepping this out, the trial is scheduled to begin October 30. Now Yehuda Tzvi what would you label this grandfatherly molester.
Sorry about the edit. I have no problem posting names and places, but I can’t without personally verifying and I don’t have time to do that.
Shein
I think theres a huge difference between an 11 year old boy and a 15 year old boy.
The Torah considers a 13 year old a bar das. The 15 year old should have asked for help instead of destroying a 6 year old girls life. If he had taken a gun and shot her through the eyes you would have no problem viewing him as a monster. Well what he did is beastly and monstrous.
I have no idea if he was molested as a child, but even if he was he should have gone for help I have no pity left for someone who ruins an innocent childs life the way this boy did. If he was 11 maybe I would have pity but I dont pity a 15 year old boy who does such a thing.
WIY, I am sorry to hear that. If you understood the situation more and the fact that children who are molested can turn into molesters because thy either don’t understand what happened to them or cant come to grips with it maybe you would. Or maybe if you could understand that by catching him at his first offense there is still hope to stop him and cure him for the future. Or maybe if you realize that by trying to help him and finding out if in fact he was molested and who his molester was the authorities can then, with his help, put two molesters out of business!
Please also explain to me why a kid of fifteen who molests is considered a responsible adult , but a kid of fifteen who claims he was molested is considered a liar? This is what I want all those who spout support for the abusers in general claiming one should not go to the authorities because it could be a false accusation and you can ruin his life! Now that it is a young teen who might have been victimized himself, you don’t care if you ruin HIS life? HE is a monster, but if he claims or others his age claim they were victimized then you sing a different tune. Give me a break!
yehuda tzvi-I’m sorry you feel that way. I haven’t posted in a while but when I read the disgusting way you viewed the boy, it hit home and I had to say something. I’m glad I don’t have to meet you IRL. And I hope I don’t know you
Mischief: you can be proud and grateful to have reached a level of empathy after all you have been through, I sure havent. But I am not sure your harshness toward YT is either fair or rational. Think of him as someone who would have walked thru fire to save you when it was you on the recieving end.
Aries: Do you have an opinion you can offer on why there are people (besides co workers and religious authority figures) defending molesters? Outside of being a relative or someone who just likes to be contrary and contravertial I would expect this to be one subject most laymen would all be together on. I have been searching for years for a way to be dan lkaf zchus to no avail.
(besides co workers and religious authority figures)
You think Rabbonim are the only one who seek the Emes and want to address matters exclusively under a Torah framework? To your surprise, there are indeed many many “laymen” who seek the same.
Asking that any penalty not exceed what the Torah allows, is in no way a defense of what transpired. To those calling for the malefactor to be hung, drawn and quartered, that very much exceeds and violates the Torah.
It helps to address the persons comment after reading it and knowing what they actually said. This is the second or third time you have brought up my desire to go against torah by hurting people who have done tshuva. You have no clue if someone did tshuva or not, you just want me to pretend they did. And I was VERY clear in the above post and others that if you PROMISE to keep the kids around them safe, then you are welcome to keep them private. You want us to assume they did tshuva? and you are willing to put them as a michsohol to kids because when you asked if they did tshuva they said yes?
I know a 14 year old who molested a little girl because he didn’t want to wait 4 years to try the things he read about. He was almost OTD and nobody wanted to upset him so they looked the other way. GUESS WHAT?!!! He didn’t stop molesting, he went OTD anyway, and several lives were DESTROYED.
Next time I see him I will ask him if giving him the benefit of the doubt with no premise to do so worked for him.
And as an aside, I was addressing Aries specifically as someone who shares my frustration and has first hand experience to speak from, not an armchair opinion.
No, Ms. Lchochma, I did not mention teshuva in my most recent comment. Hanging, drawing and quartering the malefactor very much exceeds and violates the Torah permitted penalty even without teshuva.
You mentioned it in a previous post that we are obligated to forgive those who have repented, but still have not supported how you KNOW they have done tshuva and have not mentioned how you will protect the kids meanwhile. We , on the other hand, never mentioned hanging and quartering in any post.
We recommend strict shmira or segragation while getting treatment. The fact that I couldn’t care less if they live or die was not a reflection on what I recommend should be done TO them. I have been very clear that they be kept away from kids, you have only advocated for us not asking that they be treated like the danger they have proven themselves to be. What do you recommend they do while they are not done doing tshuva? How do you recommend we keep children safe from them without making them known? Do you have in interest in keeping others safe or just in making sure these friends of yours are not jostled?
By the way, you may not be aware that there are many times when halacha rules based on the expectations of future behavior as dictated by the prognosis of medical and psychological conditions. It is well within halacha for a posek to use those guidelines.
If we can all put our emotions aside for a second, and look at this from the view-point of halacha… I would like to understand halacha’s take on this.
So, there’s no concept of “age of consent” in halacha, that I know of. Please correct me if I’m wrong because I’m only posting this to dissect the halacha and understand it better. Assuming the perpetrator is a male, the only question is, is the victim a male or female, and did they resist the violator. If the victim is also a male, there is no death penalty unless the perpetrator actually commits ????? ??? and there are witnesses. If the victim is female then there is only monetary reparation, and that’s only if the victim makes an effort to resist by screaming out or looking for assistance. If they go along with it then it’s just plain “????”. It’s still a disgusting act, but what does halacha say?
In terms of the ‘Law of the Land’, do we really really call someone a “pedophile”, if he or she was a “pedo” (child) at the time of committing the crime? Obviously, the age difference in this case is significant; 15 vs 6 (or was it 9?), but at what point do we make the cutoff? What if it was two 6 year olds? or a 9 year old and a 6 year old? Where do we draw the lines?
Syag, it is a real puzzlement why people refuse to believe the truth. We have a saying in yiddish “ah zoy vi goyishtuzch yiddishtzuch” what happens in the goyish world also happens in the Yiddish world and that is because we are all human beings. We all have yetzer hara and yetzer tov and we all have bechira. We have the same illness and can contract the same diseases. It is the way we choose to live our lives and how honest and faithful we truly are to the Torah that makes the diference.
For many people it is just too hard to believe that Frum Jews would behave so horrifically and it will still take time for them to get it. For others, they believe what their Rebbeim tell them to believe. Some are just jerks who like to stir up conflict and add fuel to the fire, and some are molesters themselves trying to keep things undercover.
Aries -Welcome back! I don’t think that I’ve posted to you in quite a few years.
Why IYHO do some Rabbonim protect Molesters? I was just reading on a different Frum site about a former Rebbe/Counselor that was arrested in Toronto for crimes close to 40 years ago. I think many people knew about it, but whomever decided not to tell the authorities back then, didn’t prevent the ultimate Chillul Hashem. Perhaps had they handed him over to the authorities back then -this perp by now and most probably even the victim would be over this horror and would have had closure a long time ago.
Health, the problem is victims in many cases can’t deal with the truth themselves until they are much older, in their 30’s and 40’s. That is how the truth came out about Kolko and YTT. It wasn’t till an adult survivor in his 40’s married with children decided it was time to confront the truth and that he was stable, capable and ready to do so.
As you can see, it is very difficult to stand up not only to the perpetrator himself but to the community in general who choose not to believe children in general and are suspicious even of the motives of adult survivors.
Please consider this. Had that one man not come forward about Kolko, he would have continued to molest countless numbers of children from that point up till now. We have no idea how many young neshomas that survivor saved by coming forward when he did. He was strong and committed to the truth and would not let anyone intimidate or bribe him into keeping quite. That is probably because he was already an established individual who was at an age where he was able to deal with the past, had enough support both within in his own family and through enough therapy to be empowered.
Look what unfortunately the community, including the Rabbonim do to young innocent victims, it is a mockery of justice.
Health:
I have nothing but disgrace for molesters. I have worked to stop the defending of molesters and the bashing of victims. I agree with most of your comment, but you ruined it in the last line. You suggested that had the authorities been involved back then, the victim would have his closure and be over the trauma. This is a baseless comment. The victim continues to suffer the effects of trauma whether the perpetrator is free or behind bars. The reason to incarcerate has nothing to do with the victim’s psyche. I suggest you inquire of mental health clinicians who have experience in this area. It just ain’t true. There is a real reason to lock them up. To protect society. That’s it. Not revenge, not benefit for the victim, not rehabilitation. None of these work. Just protect the community from any further acts of abuse. Please get off this kick about closure. It sounds like you really care for victims, and that’s wonderful, but don’t fool yourself into believing that this has any therapeutic effect.
syag-You are correct. I’m sorry yehudah tzvi -but your last post was unnerving and pushed my buttons.
mischiefmaker – you are very impressive. Hatzlocha to you.
Thank you and I’m really sorry if what I said came out too harsh.
Thanks syag-I can always use a compliment 😉
“I just want everyone in our community to know his name, what he looks like and what he’s done. He still seems to be cloaked in secrecy. XXXXXX swears he’s going to call every Rabbi and educator in Valley Village and warn them, and Rabbi XXXXXX not only gave his blessing but told him to do it as president of the shul. The odds seem to be pretty good that [the molester] will reoffend again some day, I’d like to think I’d done what I could to prevent it and without eating out my insides in the process.”
However he trusted the boy to be alone in some quiet and isolated place with a 6yr old. I am sure the girl’s family had good reasons for that, except we can’t guess them. Please post more information. The proper way to prevent is first of all making sure that our children are never put in a situation like that. Then, but only in second place, we have to warn our children. This can and should be done in a general manner: finger pointing is useless and counterproductive, because it gives false security.
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