August 29, 2012 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #604722
I need serious advice. Who would be the halachic authority to speak to regarding a danger to our community? A 15 year old boy who was arrested and placed in a detention center for doing unspeakable acts to children in a local shul was just released after only a few months because the family protested that he could not keep kosher there! The shul has kept it hush hush and has not informed the congregation. to my knowledge this has not been announced (or even known) at other shuls. The father of the main victim is a close friend and he nearly suffered a nervous breakdown over this. This scum kid will be out an about this week and no one is doing anything to protect others! What are our options? The father of the victim wants it known to everyone the danger this kid poses.
The horrors were proven and he plead guilty to get a lesser sentence. There has been NO rehabilitation and the shul seems more worried about protecting the reputation of the parents of the abuser rather than the victims (who left to join another shul).
Please… names, poskim, advice, thoughts?August 29, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #894839icedMember
The justice system has already put this fellow through the system and is done. So there can be no further legal consequences unless he commits a new crime.August 29, 2012 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #894840
I would tell you to call Rabbi Dovid Goldwasser.
Rabbi Goldwasser can be reached at:
718-677-3712August 29, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #894841
Call Zvi Gluck. Google around for how to contact him, or ask around.August 29, 2012 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #894842
iced: The justice system has failed. This kid is a likely danger to other children in the community.August 29, 2012 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #894843
Can’t find any contact info for Zvi Gluck. Anyone?
check your email
-95August 29, 2012 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #894844icedMember
I agree, Yehuda. (Based upon your OP.) But my point is that the justice system won’t do anymore, since any further punishment by justice would be illegal under the double jeapordy doctrine.August 29, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #894845Rav TuvParticipant
The rabbonim and shuls should put up his picture warning everyone that he is a mazik. He certainly should be thrown out of shul to protect the children. The community needs to be proactive and stop covering up for these pedophiles!August 29, 2012 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #894846
musser zoger: I agree. I spoke with Rabbi Goldwasser who told me I need to get all of the local Rabbonim together to make an action plan.
Mod95 – Thank you.August 30, 2012 12:58 am at 12:58 am #894847
His phone number is 646-321-3331. I got permission to post it.August 30, 2012 1:27 am at 1:27 am #894848
Popa- Just left a message. Thank you.August 30, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #894849NechomahParticipant
There was a recent article about a situation in Baltimore where a registered offender was reported to possibly be coming to their community and it was publicized so that people could take proper action. The rabbonim were more interested in protecting the children than in worrying about the offender or his family. It was on vozisneias. LA should take note of this situation.August 30, 2012 4:03 am at 4:03 am #894850
What’s that supposed to mean? Okay, you want “registered offenders” to be permanently branded with a hot iron so they can never live down their sin. That may be foreign to Judaism, but so be it. But they cannot live in the community after they served their time in the system? Where, exactly, should they live if not in your neighborhood? In the other guy’s neighborhood? Why — is the other guy less important than you?August 30, 2012 5:07 am at 5:07 am #894851
bubka – I will hope you are joking. YES, they should be branded with a hot iron because all research shows that they don’t successfully rehabilitate. So much so that they are the ONLY ones that are legally excluded from section 8 group housing in some states. Where should they live? I don’t care, let them drop dead or live in a cave. And yes, they should be in a neighborhood where they are watched. They should be monitored, not protected. But the ‘wonderful’ people who have them over for shabbos meals often forget to make CERTAIN that there are no children at the table as well. And then, sometimes, those children are approached by the predators who introduce themselves as friends who shared a shabbos table. Do you want that on your head?August 30, 2012 5:10 am at 5:10 am #894852
A known offender died this week and all I can think of, besides how much fear his neshama must be feeling now that it is FINALLY cured, is how my friends NEVER have to worry about bumping into him in the streets anymore. One less trauma to deal with.August 30, 2012 5:19 am at 5:19 am #894853
In my religion (Judaism) we have a rule than *anyone* can do repentance (teshuva). And according to our Jewish religion, not only is anyone afforded the opportunity to repent, but once they sincerely demonstrate they have done so — and *everyone* is afforded that opportunity in the Jewish religion — we are mandated under Jewish law to treat them fully as members of the community and to never again remind them of their former sin.
That’s the law.
And where exactly should they live anyways?August 30, 2012 5:47 am at 5:47 am #894854
And where exactly should they live anyways?
but once they sincerely demonstrate they have done so —
Let them live by you for a bit. If you find one who goes years without touching anyone til the day he dies, call me. I’ll find him an apartment.August 30, 2012 11:52 am at 11:52 am #894855
Being among those who regrets that there cannot be a death penalty for molestation, I think there is not good news here. The perpetrator described is 15 – a minor. Even the courts will do only the minimum in terms of prosecution. The attitude seems to be that he will outgrow this tendency with maturation. We may disagree, but that’s the breaks here. Even the offender registry is only for those convicted. Whatever we, the public, knows for a fact, we do not have the authority to punish, convict, or otherwise act to restrain anyone. That is often unfortunate, as it appears to be here. Some publicity should be helpful, but probably only to a limited degree.August 30, 2012 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #894856zahavasdadParticipant
Let them repent somewhere else
I dont want an abuser living anywhere near me or my kids.
Being an abuser is a sickness, you can never really cure yourself.August 30, 2012 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #894857
The Torah has a different attitude and set of rules and laws than what you would like.
The Torah does not punish people based on predictive thinking of how he will act in the future. And the Torah does afford *anyone* the opportunity to *fully* repent.August 30, 2012 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #894858
I find the anger in this thread horribly misplaced.
A 15 year old boy who is molesting younger children was quite obviously the victim of molestation himself, and that is the cause of the current problem. Now you want to kill him? Why don’t you kill his victims also quick before they become adolescents and start themselves?August 30, 2012 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #894859
This is not a question of punishment. I don’t believe in punishment. Who are we to judge? In this sense I agree with popa that we have no idea why the kid is like this.
But I don’t think locking up a murderer or executing him is about punishment either. It is about protecting society from him, and it’s about making other potential criminals think twice.
Does this kid deserve to be maligned? It isn’t relevant. The community is more important than him. If he hadn’t done anything then it might not be morally right to make such a judgement call of individual versus community, but he jumped on the scale by committing his crime.
Can he do teshuva? Of course! Is it possible that he isn’t even at fault for his actions, due to some deeply rooted issue in his brain caused by someone else? Certainly. But that makes no difference to us, as a functioning society. If someone’s bad upbringing were causing him to come at me with a gun, I’d still run him over with my car. His personal motivations are between him and God.
Once you jump into the ring, my life comes first. Otherwise society goes down the tubes.August 30, 2012 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #894860
PBA: Regardless of why, unless he’s a Shoteh, a 15-year-old who molests a boy of at least 9 years of age is Chayav Misah.August 30, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #894861
Sam: Certainly. So is a man who doesn’t do anything but credible false witnesses say he did.
The point is that the judicial system G-d set up for us is just that–it is a system. But we have no idea whether what we are doing is punishment for a crime or just part of what G-d wants to happen.August 30, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #894862
I don’t know why you would say he is chayav misah. He is a criminal, and the courts are obligated to take action to prevent the crime from occurring again. But a technical chiyuv misah? ???? ????? ?? ????.August 30, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #894863I can only tryMember
There are three separate issues here, and I think that is causing some confusion, especially since there is some overlap and contradiction between the issues.
1) Punishment of the guilty.
2) Protecting the guilty from unjust additional punishment.
3) Protection of the innocent.
Punishment of the guilty: Let him serve his time, pay restitution, and so on.August 30, 2012 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #894864thehockMember
The issue seems to me threefold this way:
1. Punishing the guilty (only Hashem can truly do this).
2. Keeping the guilty from repeating the offense. Unfortunately, there is no known cure for this and while
“the Torah does afford *anyone* the opportunity to *fully* repent”, do we truly have an obligation to believe naively that someone has repented from this??? A tzadik who is seen violating the Torah must be judged favorably, but a rasha?
3. Keeping the laws of the Torah and l’havdil our host country. It would be very interesting for me to know what the halachos and secular laws are about conspicuously posting the photo and details of a known juvenile offender.
Peronally, I’d rather have safe, worried kids than unsafe, clueless kids. Please talk to the kids in your life and keep them aware of the potential dangers and how to stay safe.August 30, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #894865
Popa is 100% correct. And a punishment cannot be applied to an individual where the Torah doesn’t allow it, even if the purported purpose is to benefit society.
And Sam, halachicly that is only the case if there was an actual maaisa. Otherwise you are incorrect.
As far as protecting innocents, absolutely. But it cannot done in a manner that penalizes the person in a manner unauthorized by the Torah.
And, no matter what, once he served his time he has to live somewhere. And you cannot tell him to go live next to yenem so he is further from unzerer. (Kind of like no one wants the incinerator in their neighborhood — but its gotta be somewhere. And your neighborhood is just as qualified as the next guy’s neighborhood.)August 30, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #894866
Bubka: Leich Leich Amor Linzira…August 30, 2012 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #894867danielaParticipant
Chayav misa? I suppose he was watched by two shomer shabbos adult male witnesses, fit to testimony, who warned him and he carried on, and that the abuse was a highly specific one and with certain specifications which we don’t detail because we either know it already, or the coffeeroom is not the place to learn such details. If not, then looks like it’s going to be a bit of a problem for those who accuse him of a capital crime.
And after all, we can’t impose penalties outside of Torah can we?August 30, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #894868
As far as protecting innocents, absolutely. But it cannot done in a manner that penalizes the person in a manner unauthorized by the Torah.
Incorrect. The Halacha is explicit not like you. The Shulchan Aruch, Rema, Sma, and Shach all say in the second siman of Choshen Mishpat that if there is a real problem in a community with a certain issue, the ones in charge are authorized to take measures not sanctioned by normative rules of Choshen Mishpat – even if that means killing the person, or any other of penalty (as long as we are authorized by the government to do so of course).
A deterrent is needed. There’s no better way to say it – it’s simply tough luck on this kid.August 30, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #894869
You are not one who can make that decision. And no one who can, ever pronounced such a takana. So it is invalid. And prohibited.August 30, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #894870RebRYMember
Can someone answer me why in the frum community people protect pedophiles? I can’t understand why a normal frum kid would actually lie about someone molesting them. a normal frum kid does not start learning about things until a little before their chasina so why would they just make this up? and by Chasidim a bucher does not learn the first perek of kesivis and alot of yevumos or other gemuras that talk about such things. I don’t think any frum kid would just make up such a thing, so why are they not believed and the pedophile is protected most of the time?
I know a kuten is not kusher l’aidis but is this a thing that would require 2 aidim? is there a problem with mesirah here. I want to hear a daas Torah opinion and not just stam feelings. This is also one of the things why kids go OTD.August 30, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #894871
Unfortunately a lot of frum people are uneducated and are very stupid about these types of things. I have overheard quite a few adults over 50 say stupid things like “whats the big deal” so what that he touched a kid there…
In situations where there was no intercourse I think a lot of people dont comprehend that it is enough to ruin a kids life.
They also think that what was done is done why ruin a mans life and destroy his family. The res a lot involved.August 30, 2012 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #894872
There are ways of stopping molesters via chemical castration and although it is extreme it should be used to protect innocent kids. I see no other way.August 30, 2012 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #894873
The Chayav Misaa discussion above is moot. Younger than age 20 is not considered a bar onshin, and sentences cannot be imnplemented.
The reference to teshuvah is also completely irrelevant. That entire subject is not to be addressed by other people. It is solely bein odom laMakom. If HKB”H is mocheil a molester, goody gumdrops for him. We are obligated to insure that our children are safe. Since there is no known treatment that can reliably render a molester 100% safe, we must take whatever precautions are needed. And halacha is not an impediment to this. On the contrary, Sh”A refers often to taking measures to protect the integrity and safety of the tzibbur.
PBA – You concluded that this 15 year old perpetrator was once a victim. You can’t possibly know that. The statistics of victims becoming molesters themselves are not overwhelming, though we can understand the process of victim coping with his own trauma by becoming the perp. The statistic is of a noticeable percentage of convicted molesters reporting a history of victimization. Though noticeable, the numbers are not dramatic. However, you went an extra step in suggesting that the victims will one day become perpetrators. That is rather unjust, to put it lightly. In fact, a very tiny percentage of victims ever do this. Pronouncing them perpetrators is revictimizing them. Unfair, dishonest, and intellectually repulsive.August 30, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #894874
little: Don’t be ridiculous. Ask someone sitting near you to explain my post to you.August 30, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #894875
little: What do you propose doing with victims who are now perps as a result of their victimization?August 30, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #894876HealthParticipant
Nechomah -“There was a recent article about a situation in Baltimore where a registered offender was reported to possibly be coming to their community and it was publicized so that people could take proper action. The rabbonim were more interested in protecting the children than in worrying about the offender or his family. It was on vozisneias. LA should take note of this situation.”
Yes, I agree with you. I’m familiar with that town and all I can say is they haven’t always been correct in their dealings with molesters, but a least in the most recent case -they did the right thing!August 30, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #894877
Younger than age 20 is not considered a bar onshin…
That is completely not true. Once a female turns twelve and a male thirteen they are considered by Halacha to be one hundred percent adults for all practical matters.August 30, 2012 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #894879
He is a danger to our entire community and I am resolved that this should not be cloaked in secrecy. Our children are at risk. Zeh hu.August 30, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #894880ToiParticipant
yit- he means bidei shomayim. we dont have the yichoiles anyway today to kill people, so he must have meant that. in which case hes right.August 30, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #894881
I have no problem with supporting their treatment for their own trauma. But there is no reason to consider them exempt from their responsibility of what they inflicted on others. Molesters may have a struggle with making choices, but they are not lacking the knowledge that they are invading the privacy and innocence of their victims. If that directs you away from a death penalty and guides you to side with life without parole, I would understand.
Check again. You are correct that a boy of 13 (bar mitzvah) and a girl of 12 (bas mitzvah) have all the obligations as adults. The exception is “onshin”. I will defer to the beki’im of the CR cite you the references on this.August 30, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #894882
little: Neither Torah law nor secular law provide for a life or death sentence for this crime. Perhaps you are the opinion it should. That’s fine, everyone can have an opinion. Some people are of the opinion that thieves hands should be cut off.August 30, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #894883
the little i know –
What I wrote is correct. You are mistaken.August 30, 2012 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #894884
First of all, ???? ???? has nothing to do with anything when we are discussing how we deal with things. This entire discussion is about public policy, not on how Hashem should deal with people. Second, the Chasam Sofer (brought in PT to YD 185:9) writes that even ???? ???? there is no such thing, and the Chazal you refer to is only talking about special times when there was a gezeira that everyone should die, such as the dor hamidbar.August 30, 2012 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #894885mischiefmakerMember
I didn’t read through the entire thread because I was too sickened by the first few longer posts that I read here. I’ve been to BOTH sides of the coin so trust me on this one. There are offenders who have the “disease” to molest children. Then there are children who have been molested and don’t know how to deal with the trauma other than to do what’s been done to them, to others. Usually, a 15 year old boy who molests children was molested himself. The poor boy is suffering inside and needs to get help. Not shunned by people who don’t understand the pain of someone who was molested and only want to protect themselves. This boy does not deserve to be locked up anywhere or killed or whatever you say. He needs to get the proper help so that he can overcome what he’s been through and stop offending others. And another thing-it depends how old the boy was when he did the offense. A young boy not necessarily is able to understand that replaying what he’s been through onto other children is wrong. I’m not saying for sure that this is the case but it is very likely since he is so young. Speak to Rabbi Goldwasser before hanging up this boys picture and ruining his life even more.August 31, 2012 12:15 am at 12:15 am #894886aries2756Participant
Someone emailed me this thread and asked me to get involved here. There is an organization in LA called Alleinu http://www.aleinu.net, the founder or one of the founders is Mrs. Debbie Fox and she is instrumental in teaching schools and parents how to keep their children safe. Please contact her ASAP for help in regard to this situation.
I agree that if a 15 year old boy is molesting other children something must have happened to him as well and he needs psychological counseling. It would be important to take him out of the main stream yeshiva or at least hire a shadow for him so that he is never alone with anyone. He needs intensive therapy to understand what he is doing and why he is doing it and probably medication to lessen his urges as he goes through therapy. I wouldn’t condemn him off the bat not knowing the particulars but I would say that he cannot be trusted to be on his own and needs 24/7 round the clock supervision.
It is much better for others to think that he has a medical issue and needs a companion because of it, than for people to know that he did this if doctors believe they can work with him and help him if indeed he is a victim himself. The first and most important thing to do is to keep him from harming others and of course himself in the process. So the first and most important thing to do is neutralize the situation by making sure, absolutely sure, that he cannot have access or harm anyone. He should not be allowed total freedom nor total liberties to walk where he chooses, go where he wants, nor do what he wants. He gave up that right by acting on his urges and hurting others. There are always consequences for his actions and the consequences here should be intensive therapy and a shomer.
Is it necessary to publicize who this child is at this point? I cannot give an answer on that especially without an evaluation from a qualified psychiatrist. So I would again advise that you the poster or rather the parents of the abused children contact Debbie Fox and her team to inform them of the situation and let them advise you or even handle it from their end by contacting the parents of the 15 year old boy.
In the event that the parents and the 15 year old abuser do not want to cooperate in getting help, then I would say that you absolutely need to circulate his information and that of his parents so that the entire community knows to be wary of them. But first give the teen a chance to get help because he may very well be as much of a victim as are his own victims, and his parents might not have even known about it.August 31, 2012 1:20 am at 1:20 am #894887
mischiefmaker: That doesn’t negate the potential danger he poses to the community. He is a sick young man and others must be made aware of who he is and of what evil he is capable.August 31, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #894888
Toi and Little: I believe the Nodah Bihudah says that it’s a Bubbe Maiseh that a 13-20 year old can do any Aveiros and not be punished by Shamayim. 13 is Bar Onshin, not 20.
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