Whistle blowing?

The justice system has already put this fellow through the system and is done. So there can be no further legal consequences unless he commits a new crime.

Call Zvi Gluck. Google around for how to contact him, or ask around.

The rabbonim and shuls should put up his picture warning everyone that he is a mazik. He certainly should be thrown out of shul to protect the children. The community needs to be proactive and stop covering up for these pedophiles!

His phone number is 646-321-3331. I got permission to post it.

There was a recent article about a situation in Baltimore where a registered offender was reported to possibly be coming to their community and it was publicized so that people could take proper action. The rabbonim were more interested in protecting the children than in worrying about the offender or his family. It was on vozisneias. LA should take note of this situation.

bubka – I will hope you are joking. YES, they should be branded with a hot iron because all research shows that they don’t successfully rehabilitate. So much so that they are the ONLY ones that are legally excluded from section 8 group housing in some states. Where should they live? I don’t care, let them drop dead or live in a cave. And yes, they should be in a neighborhood where they are watched. They should be monitored, not protected. But the ‘wonderful’ people who have them over for shabbos meals often forget to make CERTAIN that there are no children at the table as well. And then, sometimes, those children are approached by the predators who introduce themselves as friends who shared a shabbos table. Do you want that on your head?

In my religion (Judaism) we have a rule than *anyone* can do repentance (teshuva). And according to our Jewish religion, not only is anyone afforded the opportunity to repent, but once they sincerely demonstrate they have done so — and *everyone* is afforded that opportunity in the Jewish religion — we are mandated under Jewish law to treat them fully as members of the community and to never again remind them of their former sin.

That’s the law.

And where exactly should they live anyways?

Being among those who regrets that there cannot be a death penalty for molestation, I think there is not good news here. The perpetrator described is 15 – a minor. Even the courts will do only the minimum in terms of prosecution. The attitude seems to be that he will outgrow this tendency with maturation. We may disagree, but that’s the breaks here. Even the offender registry is only for those convicted. Whatever we, the public, knows for a fact, we do not have the authority to punish, convict, or otherwise act to restrain anyone. That is often unfortunate, as it appears to be here. Some publicity should be helpful, but probably only to a limited degree.

The Torah has a different attitude and set of rules and laws than what you would like.

The Torah does not punish people based on predictive thinking of how he will act in the future. And the Torah does afford *anyone* the opportunity to *fully* repent.

This is not a question of punishment. I don’t believe in punishment. Who are we to judge? In this sense I agree with popa that we have no idea why the kid is like this.

But I don’t think locking up a murderer or executing him is about punishment either. It is about protecting society from him, and it’s about making other potential criminals think twice.

Does this kid deserve to be maligned? It isn’t relevant. The community is more important than him. If he hadn’t done anything then it might not be morally right to make such a judgement call of individual versus community, but he jumped on the scale by committing his crime.

Can he do teshuva? Of course! Is it possible that he isn’t even at fault for his actions, due to some deeply rooted issue in his brain caused by someone else? Certainly. But that makes no difference to us, as a functioning society. If someone’s bad upbringing were causing him to come at me with a gun, I’d still run him over with my car. His personal motivations are between him and God.

Once you jump into the ring, my life comes first. Otherwise society goes down the tubes.

Sam: Certainly. So is a man who doesn’t do anything but credible false witnesses say he did.

The point is that the judicial system G-d set up for us is just that–it is a system. But we have no idea whether what we are doing is punishment for a crime or just part of what G-d wants to happen.

There are three separate issues here, and I think that is causing some confusion, especially since there is some overlap and contradiction between the issues.

1) Punishment of the guilty.

2) Protecting the guilty from unjust additional punishment.

3) Protection of the innocent.

Punishment of the guilty: Let him serve his time, pay restitution, and so on.

Popa is 100% correct. And a punishment cannot be applied to an individual where the Torah doesn’t allow it, even if the purported purpose is to benefit society.

And Sam, halachicly that is only the case if there was an actual maaisa. Otherwise you are incorrect.

As far as protecting innocents, absolutely. But it cannot done in a manner that penalizes the person in a manner unauthorized by the Torah.

And, no matter what, once he served his time he has to live somewhere. And you cannot tell him to go live next to yenem so he is further from unzerer. (Kind of like no one wants the incinerator in their neighborhood — but its gotta be somewhere. And your neighborhood is just as qualified as the next guy’s neighborhood.)

Chayav misa? I suppose he was watched by two shomer shabbos adult male witnesses, fit to testimony, who warned him and he carried on, and that the abuse was a highly specific one and with certain specifications which we don’t detail because we either know it already, or the coffeeroom is not the place to learn such details. If not, then looks like it’s going to be a bit of a problem for those who accuse him of a capital crime.

And after all, we can’t impose penalties outside of Torah can we?

You are not one who can make that decision. And no one who can, ever pronounced such a takana. So it is invalid. And prohibited.

RebRY

Unfortunately a lot of frum people are uneducated and are very stupid about these types of things. I have overheard quite a few adults over 50 say stupid things like “whats the big deal” so what that he touched a kid there…

In situations where there was no intercourse I think a lot of people dont comprehend that it is enough to ruin a kids life.

They also think that what was done is done why ruin a mans life and destroy his family. The res a lot involved.

The Chayav Misaa discussion above is moot. Younger than age 20 is not considered a bar onshin, and sentences cannot be imnplemented.

The reference to teshuvah is also completely irrelevant. That entire subject is not to be addressed by other people. It is solely bein odom laMakom. If HKB”H is mocheil a molester, goody gumdrops for him. We are obligated to insure that our children are safe. Since there is no known treatment that can reliably render a molester 100% safe, we must take whatever precautions are needed. And halacha is not an impediment to this. On the contrary, Sh”A refers often to taking measures to protect the integrity and safety of the tzibbur.

PBA – You concluded that this 15 year old perpetrator was once a victim. You can’t possibly know that. The statistics of victims becoming molesters themselves are not overwhelming, though we can understand the process of victim coping with his own trauma by becoming the perp. The statistic is of a noticeable percentage of convicted molesters reporting a history of victimization. Though noticeable, the numbers are not dramatic. However, you went an extra step in suggesting that the victims will one day become perpetrators. That is rather unjust, to put it lightly. In fact, a very tiny percentage of victims ever do this. Pronouncing them perpetrators is revictimizing them. Unfair, dishonest, and intellectually repulsive.

little: What do you propose doing with victims who are now perps as a result of their victimization?

Younger than age 20 is not considered a bar onshin…

That is completely not true. Once a female turns twelve and a male thirteen they are considered by Halacha to be one hundred percent adults for all practical matters.

yit- he means bidei shomayim. we dont have the yichoiles anyway today to kill people, so he must have meant that. in which case hes right.

little: Neither Torah law nor secular law provide for a life or death sentence for this crime. Perhaps you are the opinion it should. That’s fine, everyone can have an opinion. Some people are of the opinion that thieves hands should be cut off.

Toi –

First of all, ???? ???? has nothing to do with anything when we are discussing how we deal with things. This entire discussion is about public policy, not on how Hashem should deal with people. Second, the Chasam Sofer (brought in PT to YD 185:9) writes that even ???? ???? there is no such thing, and the Chazal you refer to is only talking about special times when there was a gezeira that everyone should die, such as the dor hamidbar.

Someone emailed me this thread and asked me to get involved here. There is an organization in LA called Alleinu http://www.aleinu.net, the founder or one of the founders is Mrs. Debbie Fox and she is instrumental in teaching schools and parents how to keep their children safe. Please contact her ASAP for help in regard to this situation.

I agree that if a 15 year old boy is molesting other children something must have happened to him as well and he needs psychological counseling. It would be important to take him out of the main stream yeshiva or at least hire a shadow for him so that he is never alone with anyone. He needs intensive therapy to understand what he is doing and why he is doing it and probably medication to lessen his urges as he goes through therapy. I wouldn’t condemn him off the bat not knowing the particulars but I would say that he cannot be trusted to be on his own and needs 24/7 round the clock supervision.

It is much better for others to think that he has a medical issue and needs a companion because of it, than for people to know that he did this if doctors believe they can work with him and help him if indeed he is a victim himself. The first and most important thing to do is to keep him from harming others and of course himself in the process. So the first and most important thing to do is neutralize the situation by making sure, absolutely sure, that he cannot have access or harm anyone. He should not be allowed total freedom nor total liberties to walk where he chooses, go where he wants, nor do what he wants. He gave up that right by acting on his urges and hurting others. There are always consequences for his actions and the consequences here should be intensive therapy and a shomer.

Is it necessary to publicize who this child is at this point? I cannot give an answer on that especially without an evaluation from a qualified psychiatrist. So I would again advise that you the poster or rather the parents of the abused children contact Debbie Fox and her team to inform them of the situation and let them advise you or even handle it from their end by contacting the parents of the 15 year old boy.

In the event that the parents and the 15 year old abuser do not want to cooperate in getting help, then I would say that you absolutely need to circulate his information and that of his parents so that the entire community knows to be wary of them. But first give the teen a chance to get help because he may very well be as much of a victim as are his own victims, and his parents might not have even known about it.

Toi and Little: I believe the Nodah Bihudah says that it’s a Bubbe Maiseh that a 13-20 year old can do any Aveiros and not be punished by Shamayim. 13 is Bar Onshin, not 20.