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The following article appeared in today’s Journal News:
A newly hired town police officer has been given Friday nights to Saturday evenings off to accommodate her religious beliefs.
The special work schedule afforded Officer Baile J. Glauber has raised concerns among other officers, said Officer Dennis Procter, the department’s Police Benevolent Association president.
“I hope the town is not going to give special treatment to one individual for religious observances and not give other officers the same opportunities,” Procter said. “We all can’t always make temple or church or spend weekends with our families.”
Glauber, an ultra-Orthodox Jew who married under the Hasidic beliefs, graduated last month from the Rockland Police Academy. She completed the six months of physical training and educational classes to become a police officer.
She asked for the Sabbath off.
A memo dated June 27 to Glauber from Police Chief Peter Brower states, “I have been advised by the Town Attorney, Mike Klein, to modify your current work schedule in order to permit you to maintain the Sabbath Observances.”
Brower assigned Glauber to work Sunday to Thursday on the 4 p.m. to midnight shift, which began June 29. She is still a probationary officer and undergoing field training with a more experienced officer.
However, the Brower memo states Glauber can be called into work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown in an emergency, like any other officer.
Klein said Friday that he spoke to Brower about changing Glauber’s schedule after the officer requested those days off.
He said Glauber is the town’s first ultra-Orthodox Jewish officer and her request for religious days off is the first he’s come across in 25 years with the town. The county’s other Hasidic officer, Shlomo Koenig, is a detective for the Rockland Sheriff’s Department, but did not work the Sabbath when he started.
Klein said Glauber’s schedule is temporary and contingent on his research of the constitutional issues. He said there were court cases involving employers respecting a person’s religious rights, including issues of working on the Sabbath.
He said the town was also seeking an opinion from the state Attorney General’s Office.
“We have to balance her religious rights with the job of a police officer to respond at all times,” Klein said. “We’ll be researching the issue and reporting back to the town and police department.”
The Ramapo Police Commission, which comprises the Town Board, will discuss the issue, along with the PBA, Klein said.
Supervisor Christopher St. Lawrence, who supported Glauber’s hiring, said he had no problems with her work schedule. He said he had no problem making reasonable accommodations for people based on their religious beliefs.
“I think we would make accommodation for Christians and anyone else,” he said.
The PBA’s role is to defend their members from discriminatory practices and work violations, Procter said, so the Glauber issue is rather sensitive.
Procter said the town PBA was going to meet with St. Lawrence to discuss several issues, including Glauber’s work schedule.
Glauber has a child & was nominated for hiring in February by the Town Board. She had worked for the Sheriff’s Department Traffic Safety Board before becoming a Ramapo police officer.
She graduated in June 2007 from Rockland Community College.
Glauber could not be reached for comment. She had declined to discuss her background and the police academy training after the June graduation ceremony.
(Click HERE to be redirected to the Journal News website)
How can an orthodox let alone an ultra-orthodox woman carry a gun? which I assume a police officer must do? Isn’t it an issur d’oraysa? (the poskim have given only very specfic heterim
עיין אג'’מ או'’ח ח'’ד סימן ע'’ה.)
Comment by Bowzer — July 6, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
OH, pleeeeze!!!! (BOWZER)get a life!!
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 6, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
Boruch Hashem!
This new police officer is a blessing and a kiddush Hashem. It is important for both the Ramapo people and for the Chasiidic people to know and appreciate the fact that a true minority person has been chosen to help both communities since both are in the same county.
Being a female and a Chasid are both rare and therefore contribute greatly to the credit of the Ramapo Police Department because it shows that they are open to different backgrounds and they are more understanding than previously thought.
Special congratulations go to every single one of these crime fighters for having an open mind and an open heart!
I am so proud of both the Ramapo Police and the Chasidic Community to have brought this about!
May she be a true merit to her country and her county and her religious community!
Comment by Avrohom Abba — July 6, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
I would think there were tznius issues here as well. A police person sometimes has to get physical. This doesn’t sound like something a really frum woman should be doing.
Comment by basmelech — July 6, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
This is not so poshut….. Check out the lohud.com article and the blog comments…..
Comment by NaarYisroel — July 6, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Nu, now they can arrest and question certain people without the “religious insensitivity”.
Comment by sammygol — July 6, 2008 @ 1:01 pm
To Bowzer (#1): Where does it say that an orthodox person can’t carry a gun? Even forgetting the law enforcement category of the above individual, there are thousands of frum people, both here and in Israel, who carry pistols, rifles and machine guns in the course of their daily workday. Their doing so makes things a lot safer even for people like you who don’t! The army recruit who shot the bulldozer driver in Yerushalayim had to borrow a gun from someone else carrying one in order to “neutralize” the terrorist momzer. I know hundreds of frum people here in NYC who have pistol and rifle licenses. Please show me the issur d’oraysa you are referring to! If I am wrong, I will apologize (but not give up my gun!).
Comment by geshmack — July 6, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
I don’t know where the world is heading?
chassidishe or Portorican is there a diff anymore.
A chassidishe womans place is at home or with her family worst comes to worse she’ll get a job…….. As COP?
hashem yerachem.
How will she arrest a man? ask her husband to hold him? or she’ll only arrst females?
Comment by chaimski — July 6, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
A female police officer, by definition, cannot be Orthodox Jewish. She may claim to be Orthodox, like I can claim to be the Pope, but Orthodox it doesn’t make her.
Comment by Joseph — July 6, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
Did she get an exemption from wearing pants too? Or does tzinius (and other halachas) not apply when inconvenient?
Comment by Joseph — July 6, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
There are so many new Issurim Deoraysa coming out daily from self-proclaimed poskim, that Taryag is growing exponentially.
Rav Moshe quite simply explains that there is absolutely no issur of Beged Ish involved, if a weapon is carried for protection. If police work isn’t that, what is? He even says that if it’s worn as an adorement, it is permissible.
Possibly one can raise an objection of a frum woman in the police force altogether. Well, we all want understanding, caring law enforcement, who won’t trample on our customs, and will go along with whatever we have to do to live according to our rules. How about some frum MEN joining the force, thus having both the protection and the understanding. Since nobody seems to want to do that, how about saying thank you to the one person who did? Oy, not nice for a woman?
Bem’kom she’ein anashim, tihya leIsh. And she did.
Comment by sammygol — July 6, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
odd - this presents tznius issues(women cops always wear pants), as well as shmiras negiah(apprehending suspects), and yes, I have heard that a woman cannot carry “kli milchama” - though im not sure if guns are included. I know swords and other implements like that are..
Comment by Matisyohu28 — July 6, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
she is not frumm
Comment by myrivers88 — July 6, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
geshmack, You ‘’know hundreds of frum people here in NYC with pistol and rifle licenses'’?! ¡ Please show me ONE. In NYC it is about impossible to get a license for any firearm, let alone a rifle. Yet YOU know HUNDREDS.
Which demonstrates the lies that are spewed in an online forum on a regular basis.
Comment by Joseph — July 6, 2008 @ 2:07 pm
#7, #1 didn’t say an Orthodox person cannot carry a gun. He said a female cannot.
Comment by Joseph — July 6, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
Let’s say her sheitel comes off in the scuffle!
Oh, she doesn’t wear one?
That’s doesn’t sound ultra hassidic to me.
Comment by Yatzmich — July 6, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
I have a life thankyou- a Torah one.
First of all of course a frum person can carry a gun, a frum male that is, there are many halachos about a women carrying a gun and it is a very serious issue. Rav Moshe permitts a woman who is in danger to carry a gun, who said that a women has to put her self in danger which requires her to learn and practice and carry a gun. It always bothers me to see frum girls holding chaylim’s guns in pictures as it is assur. and that is the kind of life we are suppose to live according to Torha according to halacha and no one who is looking for to be honest can change that even for a GESHMAK (pun intended)
Comment by Bowzer — July 6, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
to rabbi of berlin- I forget that yekim shake hand with women so I guess your women can carry guns and wear pants to.
Comment by Bowzer — July 6, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
I am so grateful the poskim of Yeshiva World News have clarified that anyone who, in the course of practicing one’s profession, touches someone of the opposite gender is not frum. Thank you for exposing all of the apparently Orthodox doctors who have pulled the wool over the community’s eyes for far too long.
Comment by ChanieE — July 6, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
Re the negiah aspect of arresting criminals: I can see why someone would try to avoid that situation, yet I don’t think we’re dealing with the same shaila as say, a handshake. There is no affection involved, and if physical force is necessary it’s no different than a woman helping, say, an elderly man who fell get up.
Comment by tzippi — July 6, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
Sadly, used to be religious. A Satmar Bais Rochel student. Now she’s divorced and hopefully one day she’ll come back to the fold.
Comment by Bar26 — July 6, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
Thanks Number Twelve You Are A Hundred Percent Right
Comment by Mir Boy — July 6, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Maybe we can be mekarev her and bring her back on the derech.
Comment by Joseph — July 6, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
to #21 she is still religous because she wants shaboss and yom tov off so please watch what you say about a fellow jew being not religous.
However, the Brower memo states Glauber can be called into work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown in an emergency, like any other officer.
this would not pose a problom for shaboss or yom tov since she would be no differant then a doctor or a hatzloah member who is called on shaboss to help a non jew because of avoh or a doctor who has to see a non jewish person on shabos
Comment by yosse — July 6, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
I am a frum woman who has a rifle - my husband (also frum)has a pistol license as well. It is difficult, but not impossible. In other states it is much easier.
The shooting range where we practice is near Monsey, and is frequented by many frum people, albeit mostly men, but often women. Obviously nobody should use a gun , man or woman, if they are not trained it its use and safety.
When think of all those women and children alone in bungalow colonies… i was very happy to have mine to scare off a bear that was coming a bit too close to our playground!
Comment by chardal — July 6, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
Will they accept bubbies and mother-in-laws too?
Comment by Flatbush Bubby — July 6, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
For all those who would like to know. the gemarah in nazir on 59a rabbi eliezer ben yaakov says from where do we know that a woman may not go out bearing weapons of war? the torah states: there shall not be a man’s implement upon a woman.
Comment by Mir Boy — July 6, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
I Forgot if you want to see shulchun aruch yorah dayah siman 182 sif 5 or rambam hilchos Avodas Kochavim Perek 12 Halacha 10
Comment by Mir Boy — July 6, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
So when did the Ribono Shel Olam appoint the anonymous bloggers of YWN to judge this woman? Thanks for being meakev the geulah another few decades…
Comment by kishmich — July 6, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
I wonder what made her decide to dedicate her life to being a police officer in the first place? That seems to me the really interesting point of the story. The halachic issues are between herself, her family, her Rav and her conscience.
Comment by NeveAliza — July 6, 2008 @ 6:06 pm
The First Commentator Mentions Reb Moshe’s Tshuva, so I thought that it might be a good idea that everyone could read the Teshuvah for themselves:
שו”ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ד סימן עה
ג’ ובהא דבישוב גוש עציון ובעוד ישובים כאלה שהם סמוכים לערבים שיש בהם הרבה שונאי ישראל ורוצחים ימ”ש שנחוץ לכל אחד מישראל כשיוצא לדרך לשאת עמו נשק, אם יש להתיר גם להנשים שמצד איסור הלאו דכלי גבר על אשה אסור להם לישא כלי נשק כדאר”א בן יעקב בנזיר דף נ”ט, במצב כזה לישא כלי נשק קטן הנקרא אקדח, ומפרש כת”ר נכדי דבמקום דאיכא חשש פקו”נ פשיטא שמותר, אבל שהאינשי חשבי שאין בזה סכנה מטעם שעכ”פ יד ישראל תקיפה, וגם אפשר להם שלא לצאת ממקום הישוב ואם נחוץ לנסוע לאיזה מקום יסעו רק עם אנשים הנושאים נשק, אבל מאחר שהוא דבר קשה לפניהן להתנהג שלא כדהורגלו אם יש להתיר להם באופן זה, וכתב טעמים להתיר מזה שבט”ז סימן קפ”ב סק”ד כתב דרך נוי וקשוט אסור אבל אם עושה כן מפני החמה והצנה וגשמים ליכא איסור וכן כתב הש”ך בשם הב”ח וכלי נשק זה אינו כלל דרך קשוט ונוי אלא להגן על עצמן, וגם שאין בזה ענין יציאה למלחמה דאין כאן ענין מלחמה שהוא בצבור אלא שעושות למקרה בעלמא כשנוסעות בדרך, וגם שאין דרך הצבא במלחמה בכלי נשק קטן כזה אלא בכלי נשק גדולים, הנה מצד טעם הט”ז והש”ך בשם הב”ח דדרך נוי וקשוט אסור, הוא רק בבגדים וקשוטים והעברת שער, אבל הלאו דאיכא ללבוש כלי זיין ולצאת למלחמה אין זה כלל ענין נוי וקשוט אלא שהוא איסור אחר שאיכא ג”כ בכלל לאו זה משום דגם לבישת כלי זין ויציאה למלחמה הוא ג”כ רק כלי גבר הן שאיסור זה אינו נוגע ליפוי כלל אבל לבישה זו ויציאה זו היא רק כלי גבר ואסור לאשה ללובשם, ובתרגום יונתן על החומש תרגם שאסור לאשה ללבוש ציצית ותפילין משום שהם תיקוני גבר אף שג”כ לא שייך לנוי וקשוט משום דכל ענין כלי גבר אסורין על אשה, אך באלו שהם מצד לבישה על הגוף למטרת לבישה הוא שייך לנוי וקשוט ושייך לחלק בהן שבאופן מקרה שחם ביותר או קר ביותר אין זה סתם לבישה הנאסר דרך נוי וקשוט, אבל בהא דכלי נשק ובגדי מצוה כציצית ותפילין אף שלא שייכי לנוי וקשוט אסירי.
ואדרבה יש מקום לומר דאיסור לבישת כלי זין לנוי וקשוט יהיה מותר אם עצם הכלי זין יהיה דבר שהוא נוי, דר”א וחכמים שפליגי בשבת דף ס”ג שלר”א הם תכשיטין ולחכמים אינן אלא לגנאי הוא לענין שלבישת כלי זין להראות כאיש חיל וגבור הראוי לילך למלחמה יתחשבו תכשיטין שר”א סובר שהוא בחשיבות תכשיטין שמתפארין בזה שהוא איש גבור הראוי למלחמה וחכמים סוברין שהוא גנאי, וראיה לזה מהא דעל מה שהשיב ר”א מהא דהקשו לו חכמים וכי מאחר דתכשיטין הן לו מפני מה הן בטלין לימות המשיח השיב לפי שאינן צריכין שנאמר לא ישא גוי אל גוי חרב והקשה הגמ’ ותהוי לנוי בעלמא והשיב אביי מידי דהוה אשרגא בטיהרא, ואם עצם כלי זין הם דבר נוי להחשב תכשיטין לא היה זה שום תירוץ, אלא הוא משום דעצם הכלי זין אינן דבר נוי וקשוט אלא מה שנראה בהם איש חיל וגבור הראוי למלחמה הוא הנוי והקשוט, שלכן כיון שבימות המשיח לא יהיו מלחמות ולא יהיה שום צורך בגבורת אדם אין בענין גבורה שום התפארות כמו שאין שום חשיבות לשרגא בטיהרא. אבל כשיהיה איזה דבר מכלי זין דבר שהוא יפה הראוי להתיפות ולהתקשות /ולהתקשט/ בו מצד החפץ לא מצד ראיית גבורה בזה לא פליגי ולכו”ע הוא תכשיט, אף שאיכא סברא לומר דכיון דראוי גם למלחמה הוא לחכמים דבר גנאי אף שהוא יפה ונוי להתייפות מצד נוי ויופי דהחפץ דכיון דניכר שהוא מכלי זין דמלחמה הוא גנאי גדול מהנוי ויופי שבו ונתבטלה הנוי והיופי שבו בראיית דבר הגנאי שבו, לא מסתבר לעשות פלוגתא רחוקה כזה ואם יהיה דבר נוי ויופי לכו”ע הוא תכשיט, שלכן כשתלבש אשה כלי זין כזה שהוא דבר נוי ויופי להתקשט ולהתייפות בו ככוונתה בלבישת שאר תכשיטין היתה מותרת משום דאיסור לבישת כלי גבר דאמר ראב”י על כלי זין הוא כשלובשת למלחמה וכה”ג דמלחמה דוקא כשרוצה להתראות כגבר היוצא למלחמה, וזהו אפשר פירוש למלחמה שאיכא בברייתא בנזיר בלשון ראב”י.
ומוכרח לכאורה לפרש זה דהא הרמב”ם בפי”ב מע”כ ה”י כתב באיסור דלא תעדה אשה עדי האיש גם שלא תלבש שריון וכתב הכ”מ שהוא משום דפסק כראב”י שמשנתו קב ונקי והשמיט הא דאראב”י לא תצא למלחמה וכן הוא בש”ע יו”ד סימן קפ”ב סעי’ ה’, שא”כ לא מפרשי כלל הא דאמר ראב”י למלחמה בכלום ומה שכת”ר נכדי כותב שיציאה למלחמה עצמה הוא ג”כ מכלל לאו זה דלא יהיה כלי גבר לא הוזכר זה ברמב”ם ובש”ע, אבל ודאי הא נשי לאו בני מלחמה נינהו כדאיתא בריש קידושין והאיסור דבקרא שנכתב סתם הוא רק על לבישת כלי זין לא מסתבר כלל שיהיה נאמר הלאו דלבישת כלי זין דוקא באם יארע שאשה תצא למלחמה ולכן מוכרח להרמב”ם דהוא לפרש שאיסור לבישת זין מקרא דלא יהיה כלי גבר הוא דוקא בלבישה בביתו בשעת שלום כצורך ודרך הלבישה דאנשי צבא בלמחמה /במלחמה/ שהוא להגן כשיפול איזה גזלן ורוצח בבית ובדרך שאף בעת שלום שייך זה, שאשה אסורה ללבוש מאיסור כלי גבר אבל אם הוא לנוי וקשוט מחמת שכלי הזין הוא דבר יפה ליכא משום כלי גבר בכלי זין.
ונמצא דסתם בגדים שהם נוי ויופי להגוף אסור כשלובשת לנוי וקשוט ליופי ומותרת כדי להגן מפני החמה והצנה וכלי זיין אסור כשלובשת להגן מגזלן ורוצח ומותרת לנוי וקשוט אם שייך זה מצד הכלי, דאם הנוי הוא מחמת שתראה כאיש חיל בכח תהיה אסורה. והרמב”ם והש”ע לא נקטו החלוקים משום שלא נקטו החלוקים מאיזה טעם דהט”ז והש”ך בשם הב”ח לא כתבי שהם פליגי אלא שמפרשי שכן הוא גם להרמב”ם והש”ע ובט”ז מפורש שסובר כן הש”ע דהא כתב על לשון לא תעדה שהוא דוקא לנוי וקשוט וגם כתב שהוא פשוט, וכמו כן אמינא שהחלוק בשריון וכלי זין שהוא להיפוך נמי פשוט. וא”כ מה שאין הנשק דאקדח ענין נוי וקשוט אינו טעם להקל אלא אדרבה טעם להחמיר לאסור. אבל זה שאין דרך הצבא בכלי נשק קטן כזה אלא כלי נשק גדול הוא טעם להתיר.
אבל בעצם לדינא פשוט שבמקומות שקרוב להערביים הרוצחים שאין יראין מהממשלה כמעשים בכל יום מותרות הנשים לישא כלי זיין לא רק להצלה מהריגה ממש אלא אף להנצל מהכאות בעלמא שבמלחמות קטנות אלו הא נמצאות הנשים כאנשים בהכרח שלכן לא שייך חלוק בין גברי לנשי במה שצריכין ליקח להנצל דיש ליקח מה שיותר עדיף לזה וכל עניני נשק יש להחשיב דרכן דתרוייהו בין גברי בין נשי בזה אף אם לענין המציאות לא ניסו הנשים בזה מפני חולשתן ויראתן ואין יכולות להציל עצמן משום דכן צריך להיות ולא שייך לעשות חלוקים בזה, וגם פשוט שהוא גם ענין פק”נ =פקוח נפש= ולא שייך לחייב בשביל זה הנשים שלא יסעו למקום שרוצות, ואפילו אם תקח גברא יש לתרוייהו ליקח נשק שהרי יותר טוב להנצל וגם אפשר שיפלו תרתי, ורק לצאת למלחמה אין דרך נשי וגם אסורות וכן בסתם מקומות שבחזקת שלום אסורות.
והא דאיתא בפרש”י נזיר נ”ט דיעל הרגתה לסיסרא ביתד ולא בכלי זין מצד איסור כלי גבר, והוא מתרגום יונתן בשופטים ואיתא גם בילקוט שופטים רמז נ”ו כדציין רעק”א בגהש”ס, הוא להרוג אחר שהיה כבר ככפות מצד העייפות והתרדמה שהפיל עליו ה’ והיה לה זמן לבקש יתד להרגו ומוכרח כן דהא עברה ברצון על איסור א”א =אשת איש= ז”פ שליכא היתר זה אלא להצלת ישראל וכ”ש שלא היה שייך לחוש מלאו דכלי גבר אלא משום שהיה ככפות ויכלה להרגו גם ביתד, וזה ברור ופשוט. ומ”מ צריכות ללמוד איך להשתמש בהאקדח שזה יותר נחוץ לפניהן. ולישא אותו במקום שיותר קל להוציאו. זקנך אוהבך בלו”נ, משה פיינשטיין.
Comment by RagachoversAssistant — July 6, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Obviously it isn’t normal for a frum women to join the NYPD forces. Something must be wrong, so why is everyone making judgments about halachic issues if you don’t know the full story.
Comment by vusshmutzich — July 6, 2008 @ 7:10 pm
Finally a frum lady can have a respectable parnossa,without having to be a teacher, something she is absolutely unintersested in,and a job for which she has no particular talent. She also does not need to beg to be paid the miserable salaries that schools pay frum teachers.I assume that benefits are not an issue when working for a police force.
Instead of criticising her,I think we should all commen Ms. Glauber.
Go Baile!!!!
Go
Comment by rezmam — July 6, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
I’d just like to say, Thank you, Officer Baile J. Glauber, for dedicating yourself to protect the people! It is truly inspiring and admirable of you. I’m rooting for you!
Comment by yoshi — July 6, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
If more descent people had guns it would be a safer world.Habo lhorgach hashkaim vhorgo!!!!!!!!!
Comment by rabbi108300 — July 6, 2008 @ 8:48 pm
B”H
For EVERY Jew, a 22!
Go girl!! We all need to know how to use a weapon.
As far as whether she is religious, I offer you the same advice I offer my children: “Pay attention to your own mitzvot. When you have those down perfectly, you can move on to worrying about every one else’s.”
Comment by Yael — July 6, 2008 @ 9:15 pm
KOL HAKAVOD to her! I salute her!
Comment by milchig — July 6, 2008 @ 10:49 pm
Regardless of weather it halachicly acceptable for a women to carry a gun as a police officer and the other halachic aspects, the truth is we should be happy that at lease she insists on keeping shabbos, and is adamant in that. I am not saying it’s a good thing for a frum women to be a cop, but it is a good thing that a jew clings to shabbos, may the zechus of her shabbos bring all of us to teshuva.
Comment by Bowzer — July 7, 2008 @ 12:04 am
Once again sammygul leads the “religous left” in arguing against the Torah and for anti-tzinius. Using the usual dreikup to try to drei a psak shel Reb Moishe into the opposite of its intent. I still marvel at how some people use Reb Moishe’s psak that bdieved if a woman’s hair somehow got uncovered less than a tefach she isn’t oiver a lav, the pro-pritius dreikups in their zeal to legitimize pritzus dreid that psak into the opposite of its meaning to say that a woman could lchatchila cover the back tefach of hair, and presto, she is yoitza tzinius with all her uncovered hair irrelevant.
“Well, we all want understanding, caring law enforcement, who won’t trample on our customs, and will go along with whatever we have to do to live according to our rules.”
Since when does what “we want” trample shilchun aruch? And who says we want that anyway?
How about some frum MEN joining the force
How about NOT? A heilige Yid, man OR woman, has more appropriate professions than the police force.
Comment by chachom — July 7, 2008 @ 12:48 am
the woman is not ultra orthodox in the picture of the ceremony she is seen wearing pants with her hair uncovered. she might keep Shabbos but she aint to religious. It’s up to the editor but i don’t think this article belongs on yeshiva world as it is about someone who left the yeshiva world. I think this article might have a bad influence on any one that sees it as it shows respect toward someone who left the orthodox fold.
Comment by Mir Boy — July 7, 2008 @ 1:39 am
Why don’t you all give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she asked a shailah before getting involved. If she is ulta-orthodox and cares enough about not working on shabbos let’s assume that she cares about all other halachos also.
Comment by Rebbitzen Mommy — July 7, 2008 @ 3:08 am
I saw a picture of her. She does not appear chassidish at all, (looks like hair under the police cap) so half the issues aren’t issues anymore.
This doesn’t mean that it’s right or wrong, but we’re not talking about a chossid here.
Comment by willi — July 7, 2008 @ 3:09 am
Take a deep breath and lets all step back, lets all take a positive view that baila will be able to bridge to our benefit both worlds to clear much of the mistrust between us and the outside world. In the same way that baila has seen some bad in us she has also seen much goodness between us and knows that there is much to be said for our community (notwithstanding if she is, or is not part of it)In baila’s new capacity she will be in a position to effect much chesed and understanding so while we do not agree that this is the derech of a bas yisroel let us look at the positive and hopefully with love have baila rejoin our and her community. P.S I happen to be very well acquainted with a exceptional balas theshuva lady police officer in Brooklyn who has a very special frum daughter married to a very choshova ben torah colel yungerman . she has had used her position many times to clean up issues in our community unknown to any but a privileged few.
Comment by twerski — July 7, 2008 @ 3:27 am
this is mamish a prusta zach and i am not mekabel. I hold it is usser to get arrested by her and anyone who does is chayiv curais this is not a joking matter at all
Comment by ultimateshtarkness — July 7, 2008 @ 5:06 am
I applaud Baile’s courage and would be proud to have her shoot or wrestle someone who was trying to hurt me or my family - KOL HaKAVOD!
As for those who are judging on the blog - if this is a Machlokes l’shem shamayim, go ahead…it is an interesting question to explore. If you’re just posting your POV because you believe a woman is only good if she is in the kitchen baking kugels all day…well, what can I say…I’m for Machlokes L’shma.
Judy
Comment by JudySL — July 7, 2008 @ 7:46 am
Ok, lets get the facts straight, I know her personally , she lives with her child in Victory Gardens, she is not frum, and nowhere in the article of the Journal News did it say that she was frum. All the news said was that she was from a Chassidic background.She is a very nice girl, trying her best in her situation.
Comment by Satmer101 — July 7, 2008 @ 8:32 am
These postings are truly hilarious !
On one side, all those -let’s call them traditionalists-who see the woman only as a mother,wife and shun anything that might make her different than this. Well, you are fully entitled to your opinions and you can try to enforce your beliefs on your wives ,daughters and families.
However, there are many good Jews who feel that women can have a role different than what it was these past centuries. This, too, is a fully acceptable one and you should not judge baile glauber acording to your criteria. Let her be and let her live her life. You don’t have to be ‘meshadech” yourself with her. I, for one, applaud her for this choice and I think she is actually making a kidddush hashem in showing that oyu can be shomer shabbos and still be a productive member of society.
And, as far as all the nonsense about negiah, pants and carrying weapons. Negiah is only ossur when it is done for affection and intimacy. Otherwise, it is not prohibited. How else would anyone save a woman from drowning? (Chossid shoteh)How else would hatzalah members, volunteer firemen, and doctors treat women? As far as pants go, they are not beged ish if they are made especially for women and are not worn to be like a man.Plenty of halachic sources for this (Many yemenite women wear pants under their skirts)
And, as far as weapons go, there are different opinions on this and ,because Baile is carrying this gun for ptoection, “jesh lo al mi lishmoch”
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 7, 2008 @ 9:30 am
Rezmam(and many others defending her, you were just the most recent)- you obviously never heard of “kol kovoida bas melech penima” That this lady has her own struggles and her own story that we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn her is one thing, but PLEASE, do not perverse the whole realm of acceptable tzniuos standards just to defend her! We can say that a person has their nisyonois, but how can we be blind to what is cleary an inappropriate thing at best!
Soon people will defend all of the people who aren’t shomer shabbos by saying, “shabbos is overated (chas v’shalom), another fanatism by the yeshivish right” instead of concentrating on the nebech that the irreligious person doesn’t know better about shabbos. We have to stop lowering the bar so that our failings eventually meet our extremely low standards, instead of keeping the standards high, and ackowledging our inequities
Comment by krunch — July 7, 2008 @ 9:55 am
All of you who are so concerned with this woman’s choice of career, look into yourselves. I’m sure there’s something to work on. Maybe it’s not an issue of “shomer negiah” or hair covering by you but I’m sure if you search objectively you will find something that will occupy your minds and consciences long enough to forget about critiquing others.
Comment by Jewess — July 7, 2008 @ 10:05 am
kol hakavod to her!
Comment by milchig — July 7, 2008 @ 10:07 am
Well, everyone’s having a lot of fun with this one.
But, my question is: what happened with the Chazon Ish’s Issur of “YeHeRag, Ve’Al YaAVor” for women who place themselves under military or police discipline.
Is it only in Israel that TzeNiUs matters?
If this precedent is–Heaven forbid–accepted by the Orthodox Jewish community, we will have created a major PirTza in the TzeNiUs of the Daughters of Israel.
Comment by deepthinker — July 7, 2008 @ 11:17 am
This woman may have a Chassidish background but that doesn’t mean she chose Yiddishkeit for herself. I am not in a position to judge her because I am not in her shoes and I have no idea what movivated her to become a police officer. perhaps, like someone has already said we should look at the positive that will come out of it… Still, I sincerely question why this article would be on Yeshiva news, the key word being “yeshiva”. There is no controversy here!! since we are not talking about a person who is part of the frum world. It seems to me YWN is the operative of my yetzer who wants to keep me busy with completely irrelevant things.
Comment by yiddishemishpacha — July 7, 2008 @ 11:48 am
TO #14 (Joseph): Before you make insinuations, check the facts! I was a gun dealer in the NYC area (it’s not relevant exactly where) for 21 years and I can indeed name you hundreds of religious people who have guns. Since I am not in the business of “outing” people, I will not name them other than to state that many of them were/are prominent people in Boro Park, Flatbush,Williamsburg, Etc. There are Doctors, Lawyers, Jewelers, Landlords, Business people, and plain citizens. There were/are also many regular yidden who wanted to protect themselves and jumped thru the Police Departments’ hoops and did obtain licenses. By the way, you only need a license for a pistol in New York State. Rifles can be bought and used without a license in all of New York State except New York City. Even there, it is not difficult to get, just time consuming.
TO #17 (bowzer), These days, everyone is in danger to a greater or lesser degree, so having a gun handy and knowing how to use it is just good sense.
TO #25 (chardal): Kol Hakovod to you and your husband for refusing to be passive victims. Keep your powder dry!
Comment by geshmack — July 7, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
to #2, #47.rah..bbi of berlin..so here you are showing up again with your apikorsishe anti torah, anti shlchun urech colors..you say “get yourself a life..” well he(#1) has a life “ki hu chayechu vorech yomacho” and he is qouting from that life whether he is right or wrong lgabay halacha we’re not going into ,but you, what life are you into ? which life are you soimech on your anti shulchen urech shita..yes ,you didnt take into consideration haw many harbe avairos she will put herself into it seems not to bother you what serious halacha this lady is oiver, what gets you excited is that that a yiddishe tochter is in the NYPD..you dont even take into consideration what what serious halachik problems this involves. did you learn “aven ezaer hilchos yichud” problems, do you know what happened already with officers who had partners of opposite - - - with them all day in thier cruise cars we’re not going into details of what issurim this leads ,not even going to be meramez as it is too x rated tomention on such a site,kol huoimer ruchov ,nikrah, but you dont care anyway..if have the chutzpah,the audacity to come on a ehrlicha shmrei torah umitzvah site for yidden yireui hashem and say there is nothing wrong with ladies going in pants what nerve..tell us does chacham oivadya yosefs s’hlitas rebitzin wear pants? meran mordechau elyohu shlitas?etc..what nerve..you say one side “lets call themraditionalis” the other sicde you call “good jews”we will not even bother to comment who you call “good jews”noow according to #46 this lady is not shomer torah umitzvos so what are you so excited about ther are plentyjewish .. who en gage and disregard …letsnot gointo these ave azer details..so rah..bbi of berlin lets repeat what we mentioned at another article on this site ..your name apltly describes you “rah”bbi of berlin where the haskalah started (and ladies wearing pants was also part of the metapshim (aka maskilim), or endarkenment (aka. enlihtenment)
Comment by jent1150 — July 7, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
I would suggest that all YW users click on the link to the Journal News article on this story and read all the comments on this story. it will be real eye opener to you as to the blatant antisemitism we are surrounded with in the Monsey community. It is really really scary to see what we live amongst. The Hamon Am really hates the yidden. As much as you might have thought this was the fact in Rockland County, seeing it in print openly from so many bloggers on that site is scary. It should be an awakening to all those “frum” people that were backing the anti St. Lawrence party during the last election thinking that their agenda was strictly to “stop the building”. Their agenda was and still is “Hate the Jews and make their lives miserable so that maybe they will leave”. Hashem Yishmor!!!
Comment by monseyak — July 7, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
to #45 judy ..you come here with machlokes l’shem shomayinm? you know what it means? so these posters who have proven on many other articles with their postings that they couldnt care less on being oiver dinim (good jews ,according to rah bbi of berlin aka metapshim{maskilim in their language})even harbe dinim in shulchen urech, they are “poiretz geder’ you call the l’shem shomaim?..on this rah bbi of berlin one can safely say he is mechallel shabbos according to his postings throughout..so of courrse he is excited to have another yid be mechallel the torah.
Comment by jent1150 — July 7, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
geshmack/53, You mentioned NYC, so we were talking about NYC not NYS. In NYC unless you are famous or a celebrity, it is practically impossible to get the NYPD to issue you a pistol license, let alone a rifle license.
Comment by Joseph — July 7, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
…or have a proven and demonstrable need for a license i.e. transfer large sums of cash on a regular basis.
Comment by Joseph — July 7, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
krunch (#48) hit the nail on the head.
is being a police officer a proper job for a bas yisroel? absolutely not.
would I want my daughter to become one? again, absolutely not.
Should we judge Baila Glauber for becoming one? Again of course not.
Whether she wears pants and keeps her hair uncovered or not, and in general her level of frumkeit are between her and Hashem. How do any of you who are bashing her know that YOU would be able to withstand whatever nisyonos caused her to stray (at least partially) from the chasidishe path she was brought up in?
And would any of you want your own ruchniyusdik shortcomings to become the public conversation piece of a bunch of bloggers? I doubt it.
Lets show some respect for the fact that at least her shmiras shabbos seems to be strong. And lets daven that she along with all of us should only grow in our shmiras hamitzvos.
Comment by charlie brown — July 7, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
Well, if my postings can engender such hostility from other jews (jent 1150), is it any wonder why moshiach is not here yet? he must be wringing his hands in frustration at the intolerance and non-ahavas yisroel,( I am not going to call it by its real name because I don’t want to be mekatreg on good jews-and yes, jent 1150, I also consider a good jew in spite of his rantings),rather than being mekarev everyone. But ,as they say in yiddish, zu de zach.
It is clear - boror kachama - that women are not “oiver’ on lo silbash if they were pants made for women. Whether they should wear it is totally irrelevant. there is halacha and there is middas chassidus or a chumro, and to speak about Rav Josfe’s wife or whatever is a real red herring on this matter.As I wrote, in Yemen, all women wore pants under their dresses. Here, in the US, most frum jewish women don,t wear pants. That’s fine too, but don’t confuse this with halacha.
I also see that you are silent on the other two items I discussed. Why? is it because I am right?
Whether this officer may, and i repeat may, be subject to other halachic problems is irrelevant. She will have to deal with them to the best of her ability. The point that I and many other on this site have made is that we should always, always be “dan lekaf zechus” and appreciate her effrot in making a living and in making sure that she can keep shabbos.
You and some others on this site just don’t want anything to do with anyone who is not like them.That,clearly, is not what I would call ahavas yisroel.
Today we live in the world of “aschalte degeulah” and all jews ,from wherever they come and whoever they are, should be welcomed back and warmly embraced. Not to do so will just postpone the real geulah.
As you see, dear jent 1150, I even embrace you, in spite of the very nasty lies you write about me in 56. You see, I want melech hamoshiach to come in my lifetime and for that, I have to embrace every jew.
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 7, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Why all the celebration? This is a huge tragedy.
A girl from a Chassidishe home who has gotten lost and is desparately trying to hold on to some remnant of her yddishkeit.
Comment by deepthinker — July 7, 2008 @ 2:20 pm
IN regards to #60’s comment,
“I also see that you are silent on the other two items I discussed. Why? is it because I am right?”
As seen from your previous posts you are not intrested in truth , but have your won personal accounts to settle. You misinterput and misunderstand basic halacha.
However, I will give you some credit and that is Halacha must be clearly stated that what this cop is doing is not halachic correct, however we have no right to condem her. At least she is still connected to Shabbos.
I thought alot about this story today and I feel it was a big mistake on the part of this site to publish the story. If she is from the Chadish velt, she has parents, siblings (maybe a lot), neices, nephews who are probly very embaressed by all of this.
L’maasah it’s really non of our business and I want to ask mechilah from anyone who might have been hurt by my posts or from this discussion in general. After all if we are talking about what is halachic, embaressing someone is one of the worst and so is lashon Hara.
I think we should end the discussion and YWN should take the story off the site.
Comment by Bowzer — July 7, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
to #47 you say “as far as wearing pants…plenty of halachik sources” can you refer to us 2,3 of those “plenty” sources ? also talmud hoiyah..shehoiya metahar es hashretz bmayah vchamishim tamim..”eurivin 18b (?) so one can make a pilpil and be matir everything..you show us where one can see ehrliche yiddenes that go in pants….we can gaurantee you that those who go with pants are ususally mechalel shabbos ,eat treife,if not in their homes in restaurant, , go mixed swimming, we will not mention which denomination, whatever that means, because you and your likes will start ranting and raving “what…blah, blah,”.show us any ehrliche yid (traditionalist in your language..as if to hold the toireh and arba chelkay shulchen urechh, including those dinim in shulchen urech aven ezer simon 20, 21, 22 etc and all those what you call “nonsense”….
Comment by jent1150 — July 7, 2008 @ 3:27 pm
the world today is very complicated—therefore everyone should concentrate on how they themselves can be a better jew and stop judging others(i’m also talking for myself.)
Comment by BP individual — July 7, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
No. 11, Sammygol, writes: “Well, we all want understanding, caring law enforcement, who won’t trample on our customs, and will go along with whatever we have to do to live according to our rules.”
Do you mean to imply that if the wife of a mafioso were to become a police officer, she could refuse to investigate a “hit” if the “rules” of her “family” approved the hit? Is a Jewish police officer supposed to favor Jews?
Comment by nfgo — July 7, 2008 @ 4:10 pm
Isn’t a gun a ‘klei zayin’, which is beged ish?
If im not mistaken that is one of the reasons the girls of Israel shouldn’t join the zahal!
And in my opinion, I don’t think any good can come out of this.
Comment by lgbg — July 7, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
TO JOSEPH 57/58:
OK, let’s talk about NYC. You are correct that it is very difficult to get a CARRY license for a pistol unless you are a big macher, a friend of the Mayor or carry or transfer large sums of money. However, a citizen (or green card holder) CAN obtain a license to keep a pistol in their house or place of business for protection. That is called a residence or business premise license (naturally enough!). It requires making a few trips down to One Police Plaza to get an application, to hand in the application, etc., having your criminal record checked out and paying a mess of fees. You also have an interview with a license division police officer. If everything is OK, you get the license in about 6 months. A resident premise license also lets you transport your pistol in a locked box to and from a target range for practice. As for a rifle, the process is much faster, cheaper and quicker. The Rifle-Shotgun license office is at 120-55 Queens Blvd. The license enables you to buy and keep a rifle or shotgun in the house and take it out in a case to a range. Again, it is MUCH easier than obtaining a premise pistol license. Hope this helps you……
Comment by geshmack — July 7, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
ironically enough, this article appeared on the same page next to the “front page” headline continuation regarding religious rights, vis a vis the woman whose hair was uncovered in the mugshot. (which has already been adressed) which could be useful if CV a frum woman was ever brought in and was required to remove her shaitel for a photograph!!
Comment by maven123 — July 7, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
I didn’t have time to read all the comments. However there is only one thing I have to say. “LO YIHYEH KLI GEVER AL ISHA”!!! A weapon is a kli gever! ‘Nuff said.
There is no defense.
Comment by avremele — July 7, 2008 @ 5:32 pm
Thank you geshmack!
Comment by Joseph — July 7, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
# 65
Thanks for asking. What was written and meant is that just a week ago everyone was upset, and correctly, about a story with shaitel removal for mug shots. This is just ONE of many issues that arise when the law enforcement, for one, doesn’t know about certain sensitivities and modes of behavior of Orthodox Jews. Having someone on the force who does, will definitely lessen the possibility of unneeded embarrassment, even if an arest has to be made.
That has zero to do with favoritism, and has no relevance to mafiosi. Nowhere has anyone insinuated that a frum officer should look the other way or grant illegal favors. However, if the party involved is “of your own kind”, there is much much smaller possibility of prejudice, brutality, or intolerant statements.
Do you disagree?
Comment by sammygol — July 7, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
to #60 …thats how it is with the other”denomoinations” when pointed out to them how they are against the torah they yell ahavas yisrorel, loshen hora, when it is convinient for them…ahavas yisriel is not blank check see perek arevai psochim..lshon horah also not, regarding those who are oiver b’farhesia avairos see gemorrah erichun in the sugye of loshen horah…
Comment by jent1150 — July 7, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
#40:
Right. Because people who left the orthodox fold do not deserve respect. Exactly.
Try this on for size though: maybe she left the orthodox fold because she saw how people like yourself think about and treat others?
Besides the fact that not showing respect in no way encourages her to return to Judaism - all it does is push her farther away.
Comment by illini07 — July 7, 2008 @ 7:10 pm
sammygol: And you have no issues with her wearing pants? With her keeping her hair uncovered (as she was in the picture)?
You agree with that?
Comment by Doc — July 7, 2008 @ 7:41 pm
# 74
Pants and hair etc…..
Kindly reread my post to see WHAT I wrote. Is there a problem with the issues you have mentioned? Definitely. Were any of those mentioned in the YW original blog? NO. I wrote as a reply to #1, and that is that. Looking up her pictures on the web was of no interest to me personally, and of no relevance to the teshuva quoted by that poster.
So, again, her uncovered head, if you have seen such, is as much of a problem as if she didn’t observe Yomim Tovim, for example. Neither of these were stated, save for her joining the force and keeping Shabbos.
Comment by sammygol — July 7, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
#75: With all due respect, sometimes a little common sense is in order. Did one think that she would be policing on the force in her tzinut style dress? Somethings, like this, just stand out in its obviousness.
Comment by Doc — July 7, 2008 @ 9:33 pm
Hi,
Have you guys not realized that what you are doing is total lashon hara? You are so quick to decide if someone is frum or not, don’t you realize that by dissecting her and criticizing her you “helike” yiden are so totally doing lashon hara and that is a huge averia. I am shocked!!
Work on your own middos and mind your own business.
And, you guys can’t spell for anything. Anyone ever heard of spell check??
RachelG
Comment by RACHELG — July 7, 2008 @ 10:23 pm
Nebech, I am sitting here and reading all comments of congratulations, wonderful to beile glober, - it so sad, here you have a divorced women - coming from a real frum home, and went off the derech, wears pants, no shaitel, ends up becoming a police officer, (what a dream) - and is loi oilanu praised as if she became a chief cardioligist in a prestigious hospital or a lawyer in a high prestigous firm, after all can someone tell me what is the big deal in becoming a police officer? dont we have 40,000 of them in NYC alone and they include blacks, asians, whites, latinos for crying out loud.
I always knew becoming a doctor going to medical school, or engineering school, or running a business making a payroll, covering a bank and so on, is a big deal, but a police officer? I will never forgt when NYC lowered the standards of their PO test so they can recruit more blacks and latinos etc.
Lets not question why did she seek that path of becoming a PO - I doubt that any frum girl knows even were to apply how to become a PO, who told her its a great idea, she must of had some mentor or the like, lets not fool ourselves, alot is hidden here, not anybodies business, but to sing and praise her as if there is nothing wrong? come on are all the writers and subscribers so dumb, that they dont even see anything wrong? mind boggling.
Lets hope that Beila Glober will one day see that becoming a PO is not a job of a women, even though she left the hassidic way of life, but Raboisai, worst of all - her past and her background, and knowing were she came from, that alone will haunt her for the rest of her life ! and trust me after all the bliss has evaporated and that hair starts getting grey, and in the mirror it looks like a prune, she will hopefully have the saichel to see what she did was against our torah beliefs, Kol Kevoda Bas Melech Penuma, Al Titosh Toras Emachu, - and she will do teshuva.
We all need to do teshuva, everybody has reasons to do teshuva.
And the fact that she comes from a chassidic family, and she was willing to become a PO in the same place were she lived all her life, and has the guts to walk around that very same town with her pants and hair, - most proberbly hundreds know her from school - tells me that something is wrong with that women, some kind of as a rebel, or perhaps she has no choice, she was sucked into that vaccum, by someone that lives in the area, so she dosent even have were to run, and therfore decided to sit and patrol…. the same area she grew up, but again that same area will haunt her each and everyday of her life.
Ask anybody that left the religious fold, it haunts and dosent go away.
There are many professions geard for women, so there is lot more to the story that we dont know.
Morai Verobasoi, after reading all the congratuilations to Beila Glober, tears come down my eyes, how in the year 2008 our youth has fallen at such low levels, that todays day in age, being a PO with a badge and gun, is someone who the youth look upto, (hey the badge is in no way a badge to enter the gan eden faster) instead of looking up to talmidei chachomim, Rabonim, Erliche Poshite Yiden who daven and try to make a honest living and bringing up a erliche beautiful family who go in the drech of hashem, instead a of the drech women is being praised and praised as if some kind of cure for a disease was discovered, instead of picking up the hand and saying, oy vey were is our youth heading? is this what we want from our kids? I bet this is hurtful and painful to her family father and mother who shed tears friday night when lighting the candles, that they hope and pray to see yidish nachas, instead she is being paraded and congratulated.
Let me finish with a tefilah to the rebono shel oilam, the one that knows the suffering and pain of the youth, the suffering of the hundreds of kids that dont get any attention at home, whether because the parents are busy hustling bringing parnodsah to pay the bills, or other reasons, the suffering of parents who their kids fell between the crack, and have no feeling for yiddishkeit, and contantly look for secular entertainment, Rebonoi Shel Oilam hear already the cries of those parents ! hear already the cries of those kids in pain ! bestow on us klal yisroel das abisele seichel so we can know whats right and whats wrong, give the erliche yiden parnosah beshefa, give wisdom to the youth so they dont fall of the drech, and make their parents proud, and most of all bring already moshiach now Amen
Comment by solomon7640 — July 7, 2008 @ 10:32 pm
Yasher Koach solomon7640. Gut gezugt.
Comment by Joseph — July 7, 2008 @ 11:26 pm
Comment #78 by: solomon7640 is great!
This is exactly what I was going to say. (I just couldn’t have said it that well)
We should NOT be proud of Ms Glauber. Nebach on her and Nebach on everyone who congratulates her.
May you all have a refuas hanefesh.
Comment by Broken — July 7, 2008 @ 11:46 pm
lets look at the facts here she was at one time ultra othodox now she is not. In order to give her the benefit of doubt I will assume she is still orthodox (meaning keeps Shabbos and kosher). The real question here is what happened in her marriage for her to radically change her beliefs? Maybe people like most of these posters or maybe worse. Take it for what it is, a Jewish woman who became a police officer and want to not work on Shabbos is a kidush Hashem even if she does not follow your exact belief on how a jewish woman should act and dress. Maybe if the Yeshish and chasidish community would be nicer to her she make come back to her roots, but with comments like this I don’t blame her.
I hear from women clients of mine who are orthodox and wear pants ask me why the chasidish people always treat them like a goyim and give them no respect. This only turns them off to the more religious Jews
there is a saying You’ll catch more bees with honey than vinegar.
Comment by destro613 — July 8, 2008 @ 12:46 am
#78, I have to give you credit. I believe you really meant well, you threw in hundreds of yeshivasha words, and sounded very frum and Torahdik. You even ended with a meaningful tfelia. Nice touch. But the bottom line is that it was lashan hora and all על חשבון this young woman.
Comment by NeveAliza — July 8, 2008 @ 2:09 am
to #77 …see #72
Comment by jent1150 — July 8, 2008 @ 3:16 am
63.
I know plenty of orthodox women who wear pants and dont cover their hair. I am not saying its halachically permissible but they have 100% kosher homes, keep shabbos 100%, keep taharas hamishpacha 100% etc. Look not everyone was educated about the importance of dress, etc. Its very wrong of you to criticize all those who dress in that manner and assume they are mechalei shabbos etc.
Stop being so critical.
Comment by ecomajor — July 8, 2008 @ 9:39 am
to 82 dont put your head in the sand, look we all understand the world is very tempting, and our minds are twisted the way we want to think, especially when you go against the torah, hey its much jucier like that, so you know what lets all congratulate her, in her life long dream of becoming a police officer, and the other thousands of future frum girls that will be joining the police force, and when moshiach will arrive he will be very proud of us. Sounds better?……..
She can become a PO - as I said there are 40,000 in the NYPD alone, whats the big deal? but to praise her as if she is some messiah or someone our kids should look upto? come on give me a break.
But again knowing were she comes from, her roots, will haunt her on the beat every single day of her life, even under that smile, it aint going anywhere ! and for that she is a big nebech.
Didnt she know before she applied for the job, that people will be talking about it? whats wrong for people to comment, its a tagedy, its a chillul hashem, and its painful to see how low klal yisroel has fallen.
to 81, you dont see ANYTHING wrong for a orthodox women to be wearing pants….. come on, if you are orthodox and you are serious about doing the will of hashem, you aint going to wear pants, so stop the nonsense, a person can do whatever they want, but dont make it sound as if a girl wearing pants dosent look goyish, if that dosent what does? if Michael Jackson puts on a shtreimel and people tell him you look like a jew, can he have anything against it? can he say oh its loshon hora, people are saying I am jewish, NO - he WILL look like a jew, - now if the torah prohibits, a women to wear pants in public, GEVER ISH, what should people say to those women, - oh your are dressed so tzniusdig, gevaldig, come on, if you dress like a goy, it makes a statwement about you and yes the people went out of mitzraim WHETHER YOU LIKE to hear it or not, because they did not change their language and YES their clothing.
Comment by solomon7640 — July 8, 2008 @ 10:01 am
And the nonsense goes on….
To jent 1150, solomon 7640,joseph, broken all the other ones who keep on misrepresenting halacha. let me repeat- MISREPRESENTING HALACHA.
Ragachoverassistant was kind enough to print R’Moshe’s teshuva in its entirety. Did ANY OF YOU read it????? I di and i can say the following to jent1150 and others.
1) concerning pants- look in the Bach Yes, the bach,- who allows women to wear pants on market days to keep warm. R-Moshe alludes to him.The “lav’ of lo silbash only deals with pants EXCLUSIVELY made for men, not skipants, not pyjamapants , not culootes and hence, although wearing pants is not be done by most frum people but a “lav’ it is NOT!
2) as far as “klei zayin” goes. Can the people on this site actually READ R’Moshe’s teshuva???
Although I could not know all the mekoros that R’Moshe quotes, but,AT LEAST,can you read his teshuva and see the mekoros???
I am sick and tired of the misrepresentation of halacha that goes on here. Yes, I know that the whole frum oilom will not wear pants and this is fine, as it pertains to znius and the way you want to live but saying that people who wear pants and do not cover their hair do as number 63 says they do (check his rant) is MOTZI SHEM RA !!!!May Hashem yisborach forgive you for this aveira !!
As far as Baila glauber goes, the reason why people have good words about her is because she is doing something productive and out of the ordinary and still tries to keep Shabbos. She may yet be an example for many non-frum women who want to do different things but don’t see how they can be shomer mitzvos.In this way,actually, she may be mekadesh hashem ,not less than a frum soldier who defends hbrothers and sisters from the enemy.
remember, “chachomim ,hizharu bedivreichem”
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 8, 2008 @ 11:21 am
rabbi of berlin who gave you smicha? It seems to me that you are the one who has a creative approach to halacha? Are you a revisionist? I am the one who started with Rav Moshe’s tshuva and I did read it I think you should reread it to. YOu can also look up Rav Ovadiya Yosef’s shlita’s response also regarding woman and guns and pants.
Comment by Bowzer — July 8, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Everyone who is so quick to accuse and judge, do YOU know the whole story? Since we all are so so yeshivish that we try to consider ALL sorts of scenarios for every line of a Mishna, and to clarify every nafka mina, do you have any idea why this woman left her “heimishkeit”?
Let’s analyze few possible causes, which may, or may not be true.
1. Forced into an unwanted marriage by a chasidic family, while young and not ready to marry.
2. Being abused by a very frum and publically holy appearing husband, without anyone caring.
3. Once divorced, being ostricized, since a divorced chasidish woman is a no-no.
4. Wanting to go to college, even a frum one, and being told that “there is no way on earth my daughter will go to school”.
5. Having, as everyone does, a spark of teenage rebellousness, which was derided and domineeringly supressed, resulting in apathy toward such a way of life.
6. Dissatisfaction of being a children producing factory, who must become a teacher or a secretary if wanting to make a living.
I do not know if any of these apply, if they do not, or if there were even stronger factors involved. However, before bemoaning a Bas Yisroel’s leaving a “chasidishe family, who are in pain…”, ask yourself this:
Since MOST, by far MOST girls do NOT “leave the fold”, what did cause this one to? Quite possible the blame was exactly WITHIN that fold. I have seen many former chasidim who are nominally frum, even still wearing the garb, but whose level of observance is almost nill, and worse, who absolutely do not care.
Try to look at the issue from the outside. If that way of life is so obviously wonderful, why would anyone not want to be a part of it? If you find out that they were hurt or disgusted by something, do not immediately dismiss them, saying that “oh, they should have not made a big deal”, because everyone of us has something that bothers us a lot more than it bothers someone else. To one it will be being beaten over the head, to another, having to eat in the kitchen will suffice.
Examining the story in depth, and possibly finding that “we have met the enemy, and he is us” is more important than debating if she is allowed to wear pants.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 11:46 am
Bowzer (87) -
rabbiofberlin is no rabbi nor from berlin. He is a haughty little boy who doesn’t like halacha as it is, so wishes to “reform” it. (In #86 he “justifies” why not covering her hair is not against his “new” halacha.) This has been his approach when commenting on this site throughout.
Comment by Joseph — July 8, 2008 @ 11:47 am
dear bowzer, at least you read the teshuva, which is a lot more than can be said about most others on this site.
However, you don’t quote anything at all from that teshuva. Allow me to quote a few of his mekoros:
The Taz and the Shach “beshem the Bach” (which I quoted)that “malbushim” are only “ossur” if they are “derech Noi vekishut”. Not, as the Bach writes, if they are to protect from heat or cold or rain.It is obvious that you would not have these exceptions if the lav is interpreted as a blanker issur. But because the “lav’ is interpreted as pertaining to “mixing”(which is the rationale of this lav), wearing clothing that is for a constructive purpose (rain, snow,etc) is FULLY ALLOWED.
I don’t have Rav Josef’s teshuva in front of me but ,if my memory serves me right, he allows pants that are made especially for women, as long as they are bederech znius.
Please remember that I do NOT preach that frum women should wear pants. My whole purpose is to show that halachically, it can be permitted.
Concerning “knlei zayin”, R’Moshe has a long “shakla vetaryah” (discussion) in the teshuva on this matter and ,although he does not come out with an explicit Psak, it is clear that he would allowe women to have pistols to defend themselves in case of danger.
If you have any other interpretation of R’Moshe teshuva, pray tell me.
I have no idea what your question about being a revisionist means.Lastly, Whatever is wrong with a creative approach to halacha? isn’t this what every Posek does?
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 8, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
to #86 this is npt moitze shem rah, it is fact and l’gabay loshen horah see #72
Comment by jent1150 — July 8, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
Bowzner (#18) i never saw that happen - and im assuming u didnt either. dont speak about something u know nothing about-im sorry if im wrong and u always see ppl. do that
Comment by yeke_and_proud_of_it — July 8, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
by the way to all those who think that de heilige torah is a menu of picking and choosing what you do or dont like…”mummer l’dover achod is mummer l’chol hatorah” so even we dont pasken like reb mayer thats l’gabauy onshim but a tzaddik he is not ..so when you come and say he is shomer shabbos, but doesnt hold from, lets say, covering hair, watches on kashruth but it doesnt bother him mixed swimming etc, etc dont come here on this site and say its ok..and the tam is paushet, if one has no yiray shiomayinm to be oiver on one avaire (we are talking about disregarding ,not goires a mitzvah, not someone who couldnt withstand temptation ones or twice)what keeps him from trangressing other avairos?. so tell us rah bbi of haskalah, do you indulge in mixed swimming, spouse uncovered hair( pants me are sure yes, according to you..so no wonder you are “mechafneh” on them..”lo bechinom hulach hazarzir aitzel huoiref ala mipnai shehu mino..”
Comment by jent1150 — July 8, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
oy, why can’t the truth be said on this site? why must some people imagine things that I ,and others, have never said?
Number 89 obviously has a fertile imagination because I have never said what he writes (justifying not covering a woman’s hair) Nor did I ever write that I “don’t like halacha”. This is laughable. I did say that halacha can and is interpreted differently by different Poskim. How you can say that this means I don’t like halacha or that I want to “reform” is preposterous!
And to 91, what you wrote IS ABSOLUTELY MOTZI SHEM RA on thousands and thousands of good Jews who keep Shabbos, Kashrut, Tahras hamishpacha and are probably better than you in many facets of Ahavas yisroel. Look inside your soul and try to find the reason why you are so bitter against other Yidden.
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 8, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
to #94 you say in post #86 …” 2)..but saying tat people who wear pants
Comment by jent1150 — July 8, 2008 @ 1:43 pm
sammygol is up to his old tricks attacking Chasidim on whatever shreds he can use to further his old theme.
sammygol, why don’t you drop your phony baloney attacks on “Chasidim”? You constantly find any (false or otherwise) pretense to berate them or twist something against them. Its your old theme. What does “unwanted marriage” have to do with Chasidim? Nothing, except in your slanted predisposition. “divorced chasidish woman is a no-no”? Another of your uneducated ideas of Chasidim.
Comment by ujm — July 8, 2008 @ 1:44 pm
# 94
Rabbi, why are you replying to people who already know what you will say a year from now, and have no interest to engage you in a logical debate? Some have found real issues of contention with your posts, and want real answers. Stick to those. The others, who will never see anyone else’s viewpoint as ligitimate, let alone correct, should be left to enjoy the spoils of their imaginary victories.
Just as it is true that people have deliberately misinterpreted the words of the Gemara and of every posek since to permit what is forbidden, there are many who do the very opposite. There IS NO heter for a married woman to have her hair uncovered, yet, there are many who read such into the very words that expressly forbid it. Conversely, some people feel a desperate need to try to finagle a twist in a p’sak, that in reality it is forbidden, and the ruling is simply a Kula for the weak.
Opnemindedness in Torah isn’t equal to accepting every wayward opinion. It IS, though, examining every question from its possible halachic angles, and if the reasoning is solid, and the proofs are impeccable, then the answers are valid. If not, it is discarded.
Try to recall the long acrimonious debate regarding A.I., when certain circles did their best to besmirch Rav Moshe ZTZ”L, as if his opinion was based on some gentile misconceptions (intended). His classic teshuva should be read and reread many times over. He writes therein, that ALL of his knowledge is based solely on Torah, yet, he comes to every issue without predetermined p’sak in mind. After thorough research of the issue itself, and all the relevant halachic sources, the p’sak is issued. If that ruling doesn’t “seem” frum due to preconceived notions, it is THE HOLDER of those very notions that is in discord with the Torah values. Just as tears do not change the halacha, neither do “frumkeit’n for their own sake”.
Furthermore, Rav Moshe challenged his opponents in that p’sak to bring ONE solid halachic proof to the contrary, and he would be ready to retract. We are still waiting, after all the Midrashim about kedushas Yisroel quoted, after all the maasiyos recounted on Motzoei Shabbos, and after all the hoarse tearful drushos on the topic “How can a Ruv say something that doesn’t shmeck kusher”.
We use SENSE to pasken, not SCENT, and entrenching oneself in the mode that it cannot be permitted because WE cannot fathom how it can be, is placing one’s own opinions and emotions before G-d’s.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
When I read some of these comments i was appalled! Have some respect! I’d like to know if anyone here is this officers spiritual advisor? are any of you this officer? I highly think NOT. Do any of you enjoy being judged especially by someone you don’t even know or who doesn’t know you? I can’t believe the chutzpah here. Those of you talking this way about someone you CLEARLY don’t know should be ashamed of themselves and make sure that before yom kippur arrives you plead with this officer for mechilah. Not everything is in Black & White, just because you see something look a certain way, doesn’t mean that’s what it is. Get the FACTS before saying anything about this officer, and when i say get the facts i mean you would have to be this officer, and that’s not possible now is it? PIctures, words, or hearing this and that, gives you no real view as to who this officer is on the inside, where she’s from (spiritually wise), what she’s been through, and maybe she WANTED to become a police officer. You know nothing, So if you have the need to give halachic speeches, write a post on the “coffee room”, don’t do it in a spiteful way toward this officer. Giving officer glauber musar is not your place, as i have clearly stated.
Comment by yoshi — July 8, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
#97: One other quick question.
“people have deliberately misinterpreted the words of the Gemara and of every posek since to permit what is forbidden, there are many who do the very opposite.”
Permitting the forbidden is a common song we unfortunately frequently see (just read above.) But the opposite, that you refer to, which I am sure happens seems to be an infrequent occurrence. Can you provide any specific examples of a specific posek who permitted a specific thing and provide a specific example of someone else who deliberately misinterpreted the words of the posek to say it was forbidden? I know if could happen theoretically, but I’d be interested in seeing a specific case you are referring too.
Comment by Doc — July 8, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
thanks, sammy gol for your insights.
I was a very young boy when the “hazraah melachutit” controversy erupted. You are absolutely right that in actual halachic terms, R’Moshe’s teshuvos (I think there were at least two, maybe three)were never refuted. All the talk was about kedushas yisroel, which is admirable but doesn’t govern halacha.Since I started posting some comments , my intention have been to point out that the facts should govern the halachic discourse , not emotions or feelings.The postings on this site, in reference to beged ish and klai zayin show clearly that people have little knowledge about the sources of this halachic discourse. No one seemed to know the Bach on this, which is a seminal source, nor did anyone truly understand that the “inyan’ of klei zayin is complicated by the fact that today, most weapons are carried for safety and that ,in case of a milchemet mitzvah, even women are enjoined to fight (kallah mechuposso).
I don’t deserve to polish the shoes of the gedolei Haposkim but ,at least, I have a decent knowledge of the various opinions and I have always felt that, FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE AT LARGE, you must be of the house of hillel-”koach dehetairah odif”.
One last word about your comments on chassidim and the response by ujm (96). Actually, the chassidische oilam is ,by and large, very welcoming and full of warmth to people,even forgiving ( I do not think that a divorced woman is a no-no at all)They do lack perspective when it comes to their own who stray from the path. However, they will reach out time and time again to these souls and, in my experience at least, are very understanding althought they will not condone it.
Comment by rabbiofberlin — July 8, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
#97: One other quick question.
“people have deliberately misinterpreted the words of the Gemara and of every posek since to permit what is forbidden, there are many who do the very opposite.”
Permitting the forbidden is a common song we unfortunately frequently see. But the opposite, that you refer to, which I am sure happens seems to be an infrequent occurrence. Can you provide any specific examples of a specific posek who permitted a specific thing and provide a specific example of someone else who deliberately misinterpreted the words of the posek to say it was forbidden? I know if could happen theoretically, but I’d be interested in seeing a specific case you are referring too.
Comment by Doc — July 8, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
# 96
Are you saying that you never heard of parents making shidduchim agaisnt childrens’ consent? Where do you live? I had more than one super sweet chasidish friends divorced within months of marriage, precisely due to such arrangements. And they did leave their wives carrying a child.
Have you forgotten the famous debate between Rav Bick and the Satmar Rav regarding dating? Rav Bick was no misnaged, yet he was absolutely opposed to such 15 minute arrangements, having had to write numerous gittin.
Aside from general incompatibility, in how many such arrangements do the involved families hide the facts of psychological instability, and only AFTER the story comes out that he “is on pills”, as if it’s some vitamin supplement, instead of saying upfron that the guy is emotionally disturbed, or plain nuts. And one of the reasons to hide is not to ruin the chances of a good marriage for the siblings. So, make someone’s daughter a korbon for YOUR own kids’ sake. How very ehrlich.
Next, a divorce is extremely socially inacceptible in the chassidic circles. Sure, it holds a family together, sometimes leading to healing. At other times, it makes life a living hell for both partners. And once divorced, who finds it easier to remarry, a man or a woman with a child? Such women are often derided behind their backs, as many can attest to. They are “nebichs” at best, and “machsheifes” at the other end. “Oy, why did SHE cause him to leave, he was making such a good living, and was such a nice ehrliche Yid”, placing the blame squarely on her shoulders.
In my professional life, I had the misfortune to see many such cases. Some were benign, just teh couple had no connection to begin with, and didn’t share a single interest, a single taste, and remained total strangers. In other cases there was frank physical abuse. Let’s not yell denial, ask the FRUM BORO PARK social agencies that have safe houses for battered wives, that provide foster homes for abused children. Do they have stories to tell!!!
Not everyone who tells you that your shirt has a stain means that you are filth. Not everyone who points out that people with active cellulitis should NOT use a public Mikva is hateful of chasidim who toivel every morning. If you don’t have a chip on your shoulder to begin with, you would evaluate the statemnt for its worth, no matter the source.
This has nothing to do with hating chasidim. there are plenty of Roshei Yeshivas’ sons who aren’t exactly role models, often having been turned off by family pressures that “we only learn”. Denial has never healed any illness, and never corrected any problems. While most, by far, chasidish families, Rabbinical families, Rosh Yeshiva families are providing wonderful, spiritually nurturing environment for their offspring, who desire nothing more than to follow in their parents’ ways, there are enough problematic ones too, and if THEY do not deny it, why should I.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
# 99
You must be joing. This very site had more than one LONG debate about the well-known issue of “cholov stam”. How many posters were doing their very best to prove that Rav Moshe meant it as a big bedi’eved, and in reality, in our days, when full line C’Y is available, it is ossur as before the teshuva. Why not ask his own talmidim, who heard from his lips that it is perfectly mutar min hadin, yet a Ben Torah should be machmir. Why, his own sons will tell you that, and they rely on his psak to this day. Won’t you agree that both are Bne’ Torah, to say the least.
So yes, some people feel good about being more stringent, and let them. The problem arises when they look at those who follow the actual halacha as the lenient observers. THAT is very wrong.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
102,
My point is that you use Chasidim as your punching bag, and only when called to the carpet do you qualify it as, yeah, others have all the same issues. Being (secretly) on pills, physical abuse, etc. are all issues all communities must deal with. It is not more prevalent by Chasidim, Litvaks, etc.
Lets put it this way, despite your personal professional experience, Chasidim have a lower divorce rate than the rest of the community. This is very true by Satmar. I would have to credit the Satmar Rebbe and other Chasidim for being correct in their approach towards marriage. (Another statistical fact is the frum community in general has a FAR lower divorce rate than the non-frum/non-Jewish population. So somethings must be right, despite the admitted lack of perfection.) Your perspective is skewed because you get to see all the problem cases, because the B’H doing-well crowd has no reason to see you.(BTW I take it that your “professional life” is in mental health.)
For every divorced man with a child that must remarry, there is an equal number of divorced women with children who must remarry. Whatever the remarriage rate is, it must by definition be equal. So I don’t know how you see men having an easier time. (Generally speaking divorcees will marry another divorcee.) And I’ve heard the men (unfairly) getting the “blame” more frequently than the reverse.
Comment by ujm — July 8, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
# 104
:) B’H it has nothing to do with mental health, as I do not suffer fools lightly.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
#102:
As much as we may disagree, I could not have written this post better myself.
Denial does not only fail to solve problems, it usually makes them that much worse.
Comment by illini07 — July 8, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
Dear Rabbi,
I am finished! maybe instead of reading all the shtusim that go on here I’ll go back to work or maybe even learn something.
This issue might break the record for comments though. intresting why so many of us have strong feeling towards this issue, but I leave that up to the Dr. of Berlin to anaylize.
Comment by Bowzer — July 8, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
So sammygol is a shrink. Remember what Rav Avigdor Miller said about them?
Comment by Zalman — July 8, 2008 @ 6:38 pm
rabbiofberlin, sammygol didnt agree with your interpertation that it is perfectly permissable, if not recommended, that a woman run around with her hair publicly uncovered and/or wearing pants. He too said that per basic halacha a woman cannot wear pants or leave her uncovered.
sammygol, you may be right in #103 but I dont think that is a common problem (that happens often). It is the other way around that is much more common.
Comment by Will Hill — July 8, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
# 109
You bring to mind the story that happened at the inauguration of the Ponevezh Yeshiva.
Rav Amram Blau, was quite upset that Rav Herzog was ivited as well. He made his feelings known to Rav Kahaneman. The reply was a classic.
“What exaclty is the difference between the Mizrachi and the Neturei Karta? Neither of you follow Daas Torah. They bend it their way, you do yours.”
Appearing “frummer” means that one has chosen different trappings for his religion, but has zero to do with the religion itself.
Thus, EITHER is wrong. Twisting halacha to find a non-existant leniency is just as bad as finding stricter interpretations than Chazal has seen.
Which one is more prevalent? Probably the former, although there is an obvious “fruminization” of Judaism afoot, as of late. But do tell, which is worse, keeping the Shabbos on Friday or on Sunday?
Being “super frum” not only has little connection to true ehrlichkeit, but it may be a message to Above that had He, kev’yachol, consulted with US first, things would have been very different.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
# 108
Zalman, let’s assume that you jumped to conclusions before reading post 105. Rest assured that I am not a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a social worker, or an amateur counselor. Neither have I had to retain the services of the above in the past.
Pray tell, why is it that when someone said that he has seen “problems” in the frum community, one assumes a mental health issue? Is that in itself quite telling? Does every shout in the street of “Hey idiot!” make you turn your head? If it does, there may be a real problem.
No, there are people who are physically hurt, cut, beaten, burned, and they do not run to shrinks. If they do, I am not the one who sends them.
Yet, there is a place for such professionals in this world, like it or not. Some are good, others bad, and few are outright evil. There are bad physicians, lawyers, accountants,…..and spouses. Making a sweeping statement about a profession that you should never have to need isn’t difficult, until you need it, that is. It is also due to such attitudes that mental health in the frum community is not treated with the same seriousness as other health related issues. There is a stigma, sweeping under the rug, and living with anguish that is hard to describe. Again, is denial the right approach?
Denial? I absolutely deny ever having been in denial about denying a non-existant problem. Right.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
when will people realize a lower divorce rate does not equal better marriages?????????
The reason it’s lower is because by chassidim it’s an absolute shame to divorce. More than in other places.
P.S. ujm please don’t reply by calling me a chossid hater. I happen to be chassidish myself & am happy to be a chossid, but it irks me when people repeat common statements while hiding the truth.
Comment by willi — July 8, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
sammygol your quote in 105 comes straight from the NT Book of Corinthians. Which is also seemingly where your hashkafa comes from.
Your professional life is full time (yomim v’layla) yw commentator on subjects you think you know. I mean you are here all times of the day and night, day in, day out. Really, do you have time for anything else? And WHAT (pray tell) else do you do?
(Watch as their is no response to this, to PROVE he isn’t here.)
Comment by chachom — July 8, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
Dear sammygol, Easy now! Okay, I concede, send them to a professional in Dr. Freud’s field if need be.
On another subject you brought up, can you give a pervasive example of what you bemoan as the “fruminization of Judaism afoot”? I keep hearing much about it, but not actually seeing it. (And is it really pervasive?)
WILLI, True enough, but I would strongly argue that the chasidishe marriages are at least as good as any. I won’t argue they are necessarily better than average, but certainly (on average) as strong as marriages elsewhere in the frum velt.
BTW you say “it’s an absolute shame to divorce.” That is the way it is supposed to be. It is one of the keys that keeps the divorce rate B’H down and marriages intact. Where that shame does not exist, divorce is just another option on the menu. If things in a marriage are not working out “peachy keen” perfectly, it is all to easy for one to say ‘I’m heading to divorce court’. (Yes, sometimes it is a necessary evil. But it can’t be an all too easy option.)
Comment by Zalman — July 8, 2008 @ 9:58 pm
# 113
I am not afraid to reply to anyone calling himself a Chuchim. Neither am I interested in proving or disproving anything to you. I am also impressed that you have studied your NT well, and possibly with “meforshim”.
Sir, your previous posts directed to me were filled with such spite, idiotic ranting, misquotes, namecalling, bringing in everything from the Romans to Gaul to Arabs, and never debating the issues themselves, that replying to you is an absolute waste of time. You do not desire a dialogue, and I do not reply to your soliloquis. Thus far, not once have your vitriolic personal attacks have had anything to do with any sort of halachic proof, even a theoretical one. Your latest post joins the garland of the misspelled hateful comments.
I definitely do not owe you any answers of what I do for a living, or any other information for that matter.
Lastly, when you post, learn how to direct your words TO the person you are questioning, not ABOUT them. Trying to hit behind the back, even in a public forum, is unbecoming of anyone with a grain of true wisdom.
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 11:03 pm
# 112
Willi, thank you, that is EXACTLY what I meant. Good numbers do not equal good results. Some 20 years ago, when McDonnald’s was advertizing “40 BILLION BURGERS SOLD”, one USDA official asked - “but how many were eaten”?
Comment by sammygol — July 8, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
# 114
Reb Zalman, three points raised by you need clarification.
1. Dr Ziggy Fraud may have been the father of psycholgy, but B”H almost nobody is using his methods, for quite a while now. His own practice focused on two patients, one of whom he treated for 27 years without the slightest success, and had the audacity to write his theories based solely on that failed experiment and on his own thoughts. Some of his ideas are undoubtedly correct, based on common sense, many others are as crazy as his patient was.
Since his own unwritten motto was “HAVEY DAN ES KOL HOODAM LEKAF Z’NUS”, there is a very good reason why the Gedolim were extremely outspoken agains the profession as a whole. Today in the USA, most in the profession follow the theories of Drs. Skinner and Watson, namely cognitive and behavioral, which produce REAL results, in far less time than analyzing someone and at the end having no idea what to do. Therefore, in this day and age, most Rabbonim will tell a suffering person to use such services, if provided by a reliable and well-trained individual. Moreover, quite few yeshiva Mashgichim, rabbeim, rabonim, Rebbes have read extensively on the subject, again, non-Freudian approach.
Personally, I cannot fathom how someone can listen all day long to such problems, an hour at a time, and stay sane, but then again, I can’t understand coal miners, either.
2. Quality continuum of marriage is from bliss to misery, and includes contentment, resentment, and everything else in between. One of the most important measuring tools is expectation. WHAT IS EXPECTED FROM A GIVEN MARRIAGE BY THE PARTNERS?
We may be living in a society where one expects love and devotion, while others only seek being rooted while being left alone. It is the latter type who, while married without any fights whatsoever, take lone vacations, go out together only to weddings, and have little to discuss besides daily family needs. If those are content, that is fine.
Once that modifier is inserted, what is a happy marriage? Obviously one without strife or abuse and according to these above expectations. So, it is incorrect to judge somoene as unhappily married if his wife won’t even go with him for a pizza, if that was never expected or wanted by both.
Believe it or not, among my many Chasidish friends, there is a very close one, who is a happily married Satmar Chosid. He provides for his family well, working day and night, honoring his rebetzin like a true Ben Torah. However, I would never be able to have a relationship with a wife like he does. They never converse, never go anywhere together, and all major decisions are solely his, with her full agreement. His supper is always ready, and he comes and goes as he wishes. She is content and the children are always happy. Why? Because that is what they BOTH expected and wanted from their union. Even separate but equal bank accounts.
Conversely, if either spouse expects more emotional warmth in a marriage, and it’s denied due to personality or simply to following what a spouse saw in their parents’ home, that union is not happy one. This is where your statistics come in. A goy may say that since there is nothing left in common we are through, and a frum person will stick it out.
Also, how many marriages that should have been disolved years before continue due to single children still at home? How many mothers suffer real life Gehinom just to enable their children to marry well? How right is that? I am talking of real suffering, not some trivial discontent.
And while quoting Rabbi Miller Z’L regarding “shrinks”, do quote his prescription for a healthy marriage, the one he said in public numerous times. “Women should talk little and smell good”. Tell that to your wife as an ideal of a happy marriage, and see her response. Would you truly call such an arangement happy? Come on.
Comment by sammygol — July 9, 2008 @ 1:34 am
114/Zalman
Why should u say that divorce ought to be a shame? If someone is suffering abuse under a spouse, are they supposed to be ashamed to divorce them? (that is if they can extract a get from the devil in the first place)
Or if a husband / wife has severe mental or psychological disorders are they mechuyav to commit themselves to a life of misery? On the contrary! They should do what they gotta do while being able to keep their pride!
I unfortunately know of too many such cases, where ppl. were embarrassed to take the step, thereby inflicting upon themselves & their children unnecessary suffering.
Comment by willi — July 9, 2008 @ 1:35 am
jent1150 - I didn’t say it WAS machlokes l’Shem Shamayim. I said IF it was, then it is permissable. But if people here are just putting down another Jewish soul - regardless of her observance level - that is absolutely HORRIBLE!
You (meaning the board posters) want to argue the Halachot of whether a woman (not THIS woman) is permitted to serve as a policewoman in today’s world - go ahead and source it. I LOVE 2 LEARN and will gladly read and try to learn more. But you want to slam a fellow Jew and get your thrills out of calling her names - I would venture a guess that this is not good for the poster, the reader OR the Torah atomosphere we are trying to perpetuate.
Comment by JudySL — July 9, 2008 @ 7:54 am
sammygol/117, It is wise that you appreciate the richness of your Satmar friend’s life, even though you don’t know(?) how to live such a non-American lifestyle that has worked for Klal Yisroel for millennia.
Regarding your analysis of Rav Avigdor Miller, aside from the unnecessary statement that he is correct, do you have the same issue with the following Mishna in Pirkei Avos?:
Yose ben Yochanan of Yerushalyim said: Let your house be wide open and let the needy be members of your household, and do not engage in too much idle talk with a woman. They said this of a man’s own wife, how much more so of his fellow’s wife.
Doesn’t fit in with contemporary American expectations, eh? But it sure does fit in with your quote from Rav Miller.
Comment by Joseph — July 9, 2008 @ 10:20 am
sammygol/117, It is wise that you appreciate the richness of your Satmar friend’s life, even though you don’t know(?) how to live such a non-American lifestyle that has worked for Klal Yisroel for millennia.
Regarding your analysis of Rav Avigdor Miller, aside from the unnecessary statement that he is correct, do you have the same issue with the following Mishna in Pirkei Avos?:
Yose ben Yochanan of Yerushalyim said: Let your house be wide open and let the needy be members of your household, and do not engage in too much idle talk with a woman. They said this of a man’s own wife, how much more so of his fellow’s wife.
Doesn’t fit in with contemporary American expectations, eh? But it sure does fit in with your quote from Rav Miller.
Comment by Joseph — July 9, 2008 @ 11:44 am
If she would come from a modern orthodox home or a not frum home, then this story would be different, but the fact that she comes from a hassidic family, went to a frum school, thats a shame, its a shame on the school she went too, but in todays hefkerdige velt were yiddishkeit dosent mean anything, bringing up a nice family with true torah values is nothing, so NOTHING SURPRISES ME, but lets hope its only a rare occurence.
If you claim that she did it because she is divorced, and has a empty life and looking for something to give her sepuk - its a poor excuse, because there are many divorced man and women - and they try very hard in their difficult of times to stay true to their upbringing and beliefs THEY SHOUD BE CONGARTULATED for not giving up hope etc., but again what do you expect from a world of today.
Comment by solomon7640 — July 9, 2008 @ 11:55 am
It’s interesting that a young woman becoming a police officer generates so much outrage. If the frum community would only become as incensed about the many instances of tax-fraud, corrupt business practices, and other criminal activity among its members, maybe there wouldn’t be a need for a yiddish-speaking police officer to begin with.
Comment by mew30 — July 9, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
solomon7640: I didn’t say I agree with woman wearing pants, I just said I have orthodox client who do wear pants. Please learn to read
If you want please go a preach to every modern orthodox shul’s in most of them you will see the women wear pants at times in public. In fact my Brother-in-law’s family wears pants, but he learns in a Brooklyn kollel and has simecha from Rabbi Belsky. Would I eat in his parent’s house? yes! It does not mean I agree with the way they dress, but I am not going to tell them that, it’s up to their rabbi to deal with that, not you, not my brother-in-law, or not me to say anything.
You may not like the way someone keeps halacha, but to me if they are keeping shabbos, and kosher and they are not open to rebuke, then treat them nicely and they may come and understand. If you treat them like they are not Jewish, it only makes them despise the “ultra orthodox”
Comment by destro613 — July 9, 2008 @ 3:32 pm
to #123…so which community are you from
Comment by jent1150 — July 9, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
This huge “tradgedy” here MUST be from “NOT ENOUGH CHUMROS!”.
Lets impose MORE chumros on ourselves, and on our kids because its obviousley a system that really seems to work!
Comment by YeshivaRodefKesef — July 9, 2008 @ 7:46 pm
wow, i hope more woman do the same thing!!!
Comment by IN LOVE WITH MONEY — July 9, 2008 @ 8:14 pm
# 121
Discussing daily matters, talking about raising one’s children, even learning some halachos together is hardly idle talk. By the way, Rav also knew the Mishna quoted, however, as witnessed by Rav Kahana, he engaged his spouse in chatting, since it made her feel good. That makes it kosher. Idle refers to talking about nothing, and that is wrong even if talking to oneself.
I pity the wife whose husband lives a separate life and is catered to. Over the years I have witnessed many Gedolim’s interactions with their spouses, Litvish Roshey Yeshiva, and Chasidish Rebbes of top caliber. WHENEVER their wives wanted to just chat, they were available, and for as long as needed. That was even in full public view. They also ALWAYS paid attention to what she was saying, and not only heard, but listened. To deny that is not only silly, but an outright disparagement of the great men.
Lifestyle that has worked for millenia? Sure, when a father gave his daughter into marriage at the age of 13, not knowing if he will have a penny to marry her off the day after, and her husband was a 42 year old widower with 4 children, whom she was expected to raise. When two young teens were wed in order to “chap arain” in the quota of allowed Jewish families. Right, that was a great way of doing things. So was having 3 wives, who must have been thrilled to have company. Actually, the husband worked 16 hours daily, and then learned some more, while the wife was busy with a dozen children, and they practically never saw one another, that may have been a workable arrangement. Someone who spends 2/3 of their day not working has different obligations and expectations. Besides, those kind of marriages you mention were prevalent among the goyim as well, so who knows which side took the ideas from which.
Horses, outhouses, and lack of airconditioning have also worked for millenia, and not only for the Yidden. Any volunteers to revert to the past?
Comment by sammygol — July 9, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
to #126 can you list a few chumras that you are refering to…so we can disregard them (if not against halacha) see post #54..
Comment by jent1150 — July 9, 2008 @ 10:03 pm
sammygol: “And while quoting Rabbi Miller Z’L regarding “shrinks”, do quote his prescription for a healthy marriage, the one he said in public numerous times. “Women should talk little and smell good”. Tell that to your wife as an ideal of a happy marriage, and see her response. Would you truly call such an arrangement happy? Come on.”
It is working for your friend! So R’ A. Miller was clearly correct! You, personally and certainly others in shoes similar to yours, have been bitten by secular culture that requires things in a marriage foreign to Yiddishkeit.
Comment by Zalman — July 9, 2008 @ 10:42 pm
And which gentile bit Zalman and Joseph and infected them with the Internet? Every single rabbi has publically denounced its use, except for business. So are we all to choose a Mishna of our liking?
Comment by sammygol — July 10, 2008 @ 12:46 am
Oh, I love that argument every time I hear it. Its analogous to, hey you miss zman krias shma half the time, so who are you to tell me not to eat chazar once in a while? (Not in severity, but in logic.)
Comment by Joseph — July 10, 2008 @ 10:01 am
to #126…we are still waiting (see post # 129)
Comment by jent1150 — July 18, 2008 @ 3:15 am
to # 123 mew30…are you by any chance cantor esq in disquise?
Comment by jent1150 — July 28, 2008 @ 9:32 am
to #123 also can you explain how those pointers (corrupt buissness…, tax fraud, etc are in need of services of police officer..nor pshat is “sina mekalkeles es hashirah..”
Comment by jent1150 — August 3, 2008 @ 11:03 am