February 10, 2009 6:58 am at 6:58 am #656210
Thanks for addressing the issues everyone. It’s always nice talking to the wall.
From many of your posts it seems that the real villains here are the “boy”s’ mothers. How could they allow their young children to go off all by their own little lone selves to a far away country? Such neglect and abuse! Look world, not only did they not do anything wrong, the “bochrim” were actually engaged in doing a mitzvah at the time, a Jewish commandment, so lay off all you Jew haters!February 10, 2009 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #656211
moish01: wat do u mean-“chaf aleph adar, thats in quite a long time?” these boys got caught last yr around that time. and they r still in jail.
teen: y 3? bec this man who sent them knew that no one would be willing to go out of their way in middle of the blue bec ppl work, but yeshiva boys are in yeshiva, and now is a perfect time bec they r anyhow going somehere, but no yeshiva boy would want to go alone, because thats boring, this man was eager to get it there, and said that its very important…..
now any questions???February 10, 2009 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #656212moish01Member
really? i didn’t know it was that long ago. don’t ask me about anything from last year i think i skipped a year of my life – 365 days of blank nothing filed away somewhere in my brain…February 10, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #656213
yup thats the very sad part!!! for almost a yr they r in solitary confinement!!! :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
heeelllllllllppppppp. poor poor themFebruary 11, 2009 12:52 am at 12:52 am #65621422OldGoldParticipant
Didn’t they not know that they were doing drugs. They knew that they were doing something illegal but they were not sure what, they thought they were smuggling antiques and the worst thing that would happen to them was they would have to pay the difference.February 11, 2009 1:47 am at 1:47 am #656215
cherrybim, it seems the people disagree with your assessment. What more is there to say?
As I seem to recall halacha (correct me if I’m wrong), if two eidim see Reuven holding a knife and chasing Shimon yelling “I’m going to kill you”, and the eidim give Reuven hasra’ah [warning], Reuven then chases Shimon into a concealed room with just the two of them. After a few minutes Reuven comes out of the room with a bloody knife in his hands, and the eidim find Shimon dead in the room. Yet Reuven cannot be convicted of murder, as the eidim never witnessed Reuven killing Shimon.
This just shows how far one must go to ascertain guilt. I fully maintain these 3 holy Yiddishe bochorim are 100% innocent victims.February 11, 2009 5:37 am at 5:37 am #656216
Joseph, that’s all fine in the perfect world when we are in our land with our Sanhedren. And even then, B’dinei Adom they may be Patur, but not necessarily B’dinei Shamayim. And we have Dina D’malchusa issues; Chillul Hashem issues; Sh’vichas Domim issues; not to mention that because of them now all Yeshiva bochrim and other frum looking people are thoroughly scrutinized.February 11, 2009 5:40 am at 5:40 am #656217
cherrybim, considering my preceding point, pidyun shvuyim – a mitzvah rabba – far far outweighs all your points.February 11, 2009 6:05 am at 6:05 am #656218
cherrybim, with all due respect, do you consider your opinion on this matter greater than that of Gedolei Yisroel who are working day and night behind the scenes to secure the release of these 3 Yiddishe bochorim? And who have asked Klal Yisroel to constantly say Tehilim over the past year that they have been incarcerated half way around the world?February 11, 2009 6:07 am at 6:07 am #656219
So Joseph, if that’s how you feel, then what are you doing to be m’kayim this “Mitzvah Rabba”? And what are the Gedolim doing? I haven’t heard anything from them.February 12, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #656220February 12, 2009 5:07 am at 5:07 am #656221
cherrybim, see this article reprinted from the JP (certainly far from being a right-wing paper):February 12, 2009 6:53 am at 6:53 am #656222
I can’t fault you guys for trying; but all that means almost nothing. The writers have no documentation and in fact I’ve seen reports that say quite the opposite and coming from much more authoritative sources.
They have spent close to a $million already on attorneys and PR and a lot more spending ($500,000) is planned. Where’s all this money coming from?
When and if the G’dolim demonstrate a unified effort and instruct K’lal Yisroel, I will act accordingly. And this does not mean an ad from someone stating that we should send our checks to various Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva. In the mean time, I do respect your efforts, but I’ve been around a bit longer than you and have seen similar MO’s. I will agree though that I don’t think they realized the seriousness of what they were doing, or the consequences if they were caught.February 12, 2009 6:59 am at 6:59 am #656223
P.S. In addition to the article, a full page ad also appears in the JP. Hmm,makes you wonder.February 12, 2009 7:03 am at 7:03 am #656224flatbush27Member
“When and if the G’dolim demonstrate a unified effort and instruct K’lal Yisroel, I will act accordingly.”
if your waiting for R’ Eliyasiv Shlita to pick up the phone and call you personally, keep waitin
“The writers have no documentation and in fact I’ve seen reports that say quite the opposite and coming from much more authoritative sources.”
please prove they have no documentation and show us your reports saying the oppositeFebruary 12, 2009 8:16 am at 8:16 am #656225kapustaParticipant
cherrybim: not trying to start anything but what is the purpose of of their being innocent or guilty. Point is they are 3 boys who are jewish just like we are, and that means we are willing to extend a hand to one another. If it was your child who took something for someone (or maybe not your child, but someone you know very well) it would hurt more. and wouldn’t you want someone to be supportive and continue to collect for legal fees?February 12, 2009 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #656226
If you’ve seen more “authoritative” sources surely you shouldn’t have any trouble sharing and directing us to these “authoritative” sources. Any why you’re (temporary) mea culpa if you’ve seen authoritative sources otherwise? A person is presumed innocent.
The Gedolim, as a rule, work behind the scenes. You can be assured there are many Gedolim involved, in addition to the ones listed in the aforementioned article.
The money is coming from Achenu Bnei Yisroel, who are elated to participate in the mitzvah rabba of pidyun shvuyim.February 12, 2009 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #656227
kapusta: “…what is the purpose of their being innocent or guilty. Point is they are 3 boys who are Jewish just like we are, and that means we are willing to extend a hand to one another…If it was your child…”
Kapusta, I agree, if it were my son, as a parent I would spend every cent I had, whether he was innocent or guilty, to get him home.
___________________________________February 12, 2009 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #656228
i heard that too. but this steve walz and malka heimowitz can have reliable sources. and they r not contridicting! one is saying one thing, and one is saying another!!! simple as pie!!ive also heard a great interview from someone that visited them!!! so all three had true information!!!February 13, 2009 12:54 am at 12:54 am #656229
cherrybim, nowhere in our conversation have we been discussing jail conditions. We have been discussing them being jailed altogether.
Also, the only thing the Gedolim need from the general Klal is Tefilla. The rest they do, as they typically do when possible, behind the scenes. And the askanim are raising the money from the klal (and the very extensive expenses so far have b’h been met.)
Btw, I would trust a non-journalist a lot quicker than a journalist. Especially one from the Jewish Press.February 13, 2009 12:54 am at 12:54 am #656230qwertyuiopMember
cherrybim: don’t get me involved in this, that was directed to teen, because he had a few questions.$February 13, 2009 6:02 am at 6:02 am #656231
Joseph and qwertyuiop: you opened the door by presenting an article written by an interested party and therefore is suspect; especially considering that the young men’s own attorney disputed “facts” stated in the article. And jail conditions are certainly what everyone is yammering about. Do you think that the U.S. federal prison system dorms inmates together because they are friends? Vos noch?
But all this is not the main thrust of my concern. No matter how many times you say it, this is not Pidyon Sh’vuyim. “The roads to hell are paved with good intentions” is a saying quite appropriate here.
Joseph, you say,”The Gedolim, as a rule, work behind the scenes. You can be assured there are many Gedolim involved”
Do you know something that no one else does? Now it’s your turn to present back-up documentation.
And while your askanim are raising the $millions for these three young men from the klal, let them also raise a few more $million for Rabbeim’s salaries that have been held back (Yeshiva tuitions are not being paid due to the economic meltdown).February 13, 2009 6:33 am at 6:33 am #656232
1. All I can tell you is some of the biggest Gedolim are working yomin v’layla behind the scenes to secure these bochorim’s freedom. Behind the scenes, by definition, leaves no public documentation. Nor should it.
2. Askanim are raising money for Rabbeim’s salaries.February 13, 2009 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #656233
Thanks Joseph, I feel relieved now, however,
1. M’thinks perhaps they should have worked behind the scenes (scene 1; scene 2 scene3) for that big event a while back.
By the way, no one’s approached me for $ yet.
Also, ir would be a good idea to advise your Askanim that instead of campaigning for funds from the community, they should solicit the cartel who are the partners in this enterprise.February 13, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #656235
cherrybim, the only think that I can make out of your comments is that you don’t like the way the Gedolim act.February 15, 2009 4:17 am at 4:17 am #656236
Partial list of Gedolei Yisroel Shlita who are personally raising funds and are involved in the Pidyun Shvuyim rescue efforts:
Rav Ahron Schecter, Rosh Yeshiva Chaim Berlin
Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rosh Yeshiva Lakewood
Rav Osher Kamlmanowitz, Rosh Yeshiva Mir
etc. etc. etc.February 15, 2009 5:27 am at 5:27 am #656237
Joseph, gut voch.February 15, 2009 5:41 am at 5:41 am #656238
Yes, in fact call any of them if you are in doubt.February 15, 2009 5:54 am at 5:54 am #656239
Joseph: Where have you seen their signatures?February 15, 2009 6:00 am at 6:00 am #656240
By a Gabbai Tzeddaka. But if you are in doubt, you can call any one of them. Most of them (I believe) are not difficult to reach.February 15, 2009 6:22 am at 6:22 am #656241
It’s difficult to believe that an individual is expending time and effort in dissuading others from assisting three young men who were terribly misled and are in a horrific situation. Some things simply boggle the mind.February 15, 2009 6:58 am at 6:58 am #656242
And it’s also difficult to believe that if a cause is really Emes, than why the need for deceptive and evasive tactics?February 15, 2009 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #656243BogenParticipant
cherry, why don’t you trust the Gedolim’s judgement over your own? Do you consider yourself more informed and wiser than the Gedolim? That you know the Emes, not the Gedolim?February 15, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #656244
Cherrybim, the only deceptive angle to this matter is the manner in which you posed your pseudo-shailah to your Rav. You asked a general question, which included a presupposition that these three young men are “criminals”, and received the answer that any ehrlich Rav would give based on the question.
Evasive? You’re the expert. May Hashem help that you are yours are never in a similar situations, notwithstanding all righteous protests that you and yours would n-e-v-e-r be so gullible…February 15, 2009 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #656245
I was very specific with the Rav.
Like I said before, our G’dolim are not shy when they are ready to issue a directive. Just a few weeks ago, they SIGNED a pronouncement that we raise funds and support the families in our communities who are out of work. Their signatures ring loud and their signed proclamation was inserted into every frum newspaper. This is the manner in which funds are collected from the Jewish community although they certainly target and solicit privately from wealthier individuals.
I think the Japanese government would be much more responsive to a community displaying regret and remorse than the obstinate behavior reflected in your comments.February 16, 2009 4:34 am at 4:34 am #656246Hill of BeansParticipant
Attn: cherrybim is right and we’re all wrong. cherry is right and knows better than the G’dolim. cherrybim knows when the G’dolim are serious and has determined that though they support the rescue efforts of the bochorim, that it is less than serious. We must all thank cherrybim for enlightening us and the G’dolimFebruary 16, 2009 6:24 am at 6:24 am #656247
Oy. Cherrybim, read your post in which you reported your “shailah”. That may help. I do think remorse is needed here, but not in the way you think. And perhaps if you wish away the Gedolim’s appeal really hard, it really will go away…February 16, 2009 6:24 am at 6:24 am #656248
Oy. Cherrybim, read your post in which you reported your “shailah”. That may help. I do think remorse is needed here, but not in the way you think. And perhaps if you wish away the Gedolim’s appeal really hard, it really will go away…February 16, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #656249
2 of the perpetrators were caught… It’s so bittersweet. 2 yidden in place of 3? That yidden can even do this to others! Will it even help the boys (Japan is adamant about their “reforming” system)?February 16, 2009 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #656251havesomeseichelMember
I am very confused about your post areivim… who was caught?February 16, 2009 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #656252coke not pepsiMember
the people who gave the bochrim the drugsFebruary 16, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #656253havesomeseichelMember
Wait- what happened here? the men who gave them the drugs were caught..by whom? They were frum, yes, but they caused much admos nefesh and should be punished for their crime. They caused 3 men (not boys) to be in jail for almost a full year! The men should have been smarter and they knew they were doing something illegal- smuggling. They just did not know the full extent of it. Those that convinced them to do this were in the wrong and should rot in jail.February 16, 2009 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #656254yossieaParticipant
“Those that convinced them to do this were in the wrong and should rot in jail. “
What about pidyon sh’vuyim? Suddenly now it doesn’t apply?February 16, 2009 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #656255
The Japanese know that the boys are innocent; but this fact does not make a difference to them. A person can barely remain sane just sitting in their prison for a few weeks…
So what have we accomplished? 2 more yidden in jail? Of course they are at fault and it’s terrible what they have done, but I can’t help feeling that this just makes the entire episode even more wretched. Another 2 yidden in jail…
Hopefully this has taught a lesson to anyone contemplating do anything like this in the future.February 17, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #656256
yossiea: Excellent observation.
Had I made it that comment, the peanut brains would be all over me.
But now that you have my hascama (although it’s unsigned), watch your back.February 17, 2009 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #656258
areivimzehlazeh: Just curious; would you prefer that the two drug suppliers did not go to jail?February 17, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #656259
it’s not what I prefer- just a bittersweet observation… a double edged sword in a way. I can’t exactly feel happy that they were caught- they are yidden after all, yet it’s terrible that they did something like this to begin with. I feel sorry for them and all involved- that they can stoop to this level… back and forth, back and forthFebruary 17, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #656260
I think what you’re saying is that you feel bad there are Jewish criminals, not that Jewish criminals should not go to jail.February 17, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #656261
yes- I guess I am. Thanks for expressing my feelings for me 😉February 17, 2009 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #656262jphoneMember
I wonder if there was a collection for Pidyom Shvuyim for the mikoshesh when he was jailed.
It is sad that there are jewish criminals. On the other hand, Jewish criminals should be treated the same as everyone else by whatever legal system they reside under, or CHOOSE to do a crime under.
I dont know the specifics of what these young did or did not do (there are as many stories as internet users), but from all accounts it appears that they were guilty of naivete.
They have legal representation to be sure, but I cant imagine irresponsible comments such as “Japan is not a democracy; it does not work according to what is fair and what is not.” are helping these young men in any way.
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