An Eitza Against The Yetzer Harah.

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  • #639858

    myshadow
    Member

    so you honestly think he didn’t get any schar? So why are all of us keeping shabbos? I’m not perfect, I forget and brush my hair sometimes or mess up with halachos like borer, so basically you’re saying what’s the point?

    #639859

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    but lemaase he was still mechalel shabbos, right?

    Think about it this way – he got schar for every moment he kept shabbos.

    Jews don’t really subscribe to the checks and balances. Its not like you do one aveira so you do one mitzvah to counteract…

    #639860

    moish01
    Member

    ok, maybe you’re right. but tshuva doesn’t work like that. if it’s not complete you didn’t do it, right? so i’m not saying there’s no point in trying, but what’s it worth if you don’t attempt to finish up? at least your goal it to try. you wouldn’t talk on the phone on shabbos, because that’s not something you “mess up” and do by accident. i’m not doing things by mistake – i know what i’m doing.

    #639861

    myshadow
    Member

    moish, but seriously if you really feel bad about it after then your off to a good start. If t’shuva was a complete package deal then there wouldn’t be steps to it, it would just be never to this again

    #639862

    moish, even if the tshuva is not complete to remove the previous aveira as if it never happened, its still not a waste to have charata. A person who does an aveira and has charratta for it is on a higher madreiga than someone who has no charata and thinks he’s perfect.

    #639863

    moish01
    Member

    wow so i’m a tzddik compared to the other guys?? wait till i tell them!

    #639864

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    myshadow- well said.

    moish- stop thinking of the situation as needing to drop everything cold turkey or else it’s not worth anything. There are steps to help you get to where you need to go (we all trip, fall and twist an ankle here and there… but you gotta start the climb.)

    #639865

    myshadow
    Member

    yep moish you rock.

    areivim, thanx and nice point to moish, it bothers me when ppl think it’s either you gotta be perfect or just stay the way you are. That’s the beauty of yiddishkeit, we keep striving and any growth we accomplish is awesome!

    #639866

    moish01
    Member

    DON’T talk about twisted ankles. not here, not now, not EVER!

    but i guess i’m a perfectionist. you’re gonna laugh but i was really probably the “best” kid in my class. in eighth grade i used to stay for mishmar every night even though i only needed to be there once (or was it twice?) a week. seriously. even in 9th grade i started out all sincere and everything. didn’t last too long, but i tried.

    when you do something you gotta do it well. right now i’m working on being a perfect bum and you’re messing me up 😉

    #639867

    moish,

    in the absense of asdfghjkl, qwertyuiop, anonymiss and kapusta I hereby declare myself the acting chairman of the YW CR board.

    The board hereby pronounces that you are on a higher madreiga than you think you are, and NOW is the time to leave your comfort zone and take one small step in the upwards direction. Don’t think about whether you’ll ever get to teh top of the ladder. Don’t think abotu wether this small step you take is too small and insignificant to make a difference. It does make a difference because once you leave your comfort zone and take a baby step in the right direction then you will have siyata dishmaya to take more baby steps one at a time. After a while you’ll look back and you won’t beleive how far you’ve traveled.

    #639868

    moish01
    Member

    no thanks, charlie brown. i’d rather not.

    #639869

    myshadow
    Member

    lets go moish! lets go moish!

    #639870

    kapusta
    Participant

    ahhem, Kapustas here, just keeping quiet for right now…

    Well maybe not, basically I’ll add in my vote that someone with guilt is on a higher madreiga then someone with none. Eventually the guilt may turn into something and if we didn’t have any guilt we would just go lower and lower. Sometimes you have to go back a step to take two steps forward.

    BTW, charlie, this is wierd I know but just curious why you spelled charata 2 different ways in the same post. I know I’m the captain of this ship, so lets get back on track.

    #639871

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    charlie- how do you know me so well??

    moish- I’m a (former)perfectionist as well. It takes a lot to overcome. It’s really in essence an insecurity. You’re so terrified of failing… I’m still a perfectionist in many areas and too many things irritate me. But I’ve really learned that a little gets you a lot in yiddishkeit. Hashem really helps you and carries a lot of the weight

    and moish- you’re far from the perfect bum cuz you’ve got all that guilt… and you’re on theYESHIVAworld.com 😉

    so you may as well dump the whole attempt- it failed miserably

    #639872

    nossond
    Member

    moish: whatever you do should not stop you from doing many good things and defining yourself as one who does so.

    #639873

    kapusta,

    I realized I spelled charata differently. Nothing deep was meant by it. I have no idea how to spell it and when I realized, I was too lazy to go back and change one of them.

    oh, and I hereby relinquish the chairperson chair to you.

    areivim,

    we need to open a perfectionist anonymous thread for you, me and moish. I’m soooo that way too in certain ways.

    #639874

    moish,

    nobody asked what you’d rather. You’ve been outvoted. 🙂

    #639876

    moish01
    Member

    nosson – of course it doesn’t stop me from doing good. i’m not a complete creep.

    #639877

    moish01
    Member

    hey what happened to my post it was just here? come on – edit it if you really don’t like it.

    charlie, when was the last time i did something because i was forced to? (and i was not forced into getting a haircut yesterday, so don’t use that)

    #639878

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    moish01

    Member

    nosson – of course it doesn’t stop me from doing good. i’m not a complete creep.

    Mr Perfectionist- you said it, not me. i thought when you do something, you do it right/completely 😉

    #639879

    moish01
    Member

    excuse me, this is a public forum. watch when you label people “insecure”

    and you’re trying real hard to talk me out of this perfection syndrome, so i guess you got somewhere… ok, i’m not a perfect bum. i’m working in the “perfection” area.

    by the way, i am a perfect bum. i do whatever i want. right now i wanna be on here – so it fits the criteria. just the guilt i gotta work on.

    better, moderator? i took out the last part for you.

    #639880

    moish01
    Member

    ok, i’m not a creep in any manner or form. i happen to be “the nice guy.”

    #639881

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    I will repeat myself. In this public forum. Perfectionism is a product of an insecurity; the fear of failing.

    Believe me, when I came to this realization, boy did that damage my ego. It took a veeeeeeery long time to face the fact that yes- I am imperfect just by being a perfectionist. The irony could kill

    #639882

    kapusta
    Participant

    charlie -I was just pointing it out, no hard feelings, and I am only to happy to take back my position.

    This might belong on the inspiring quotes thread, it fits here too. “I am careful not to confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is G-ds business.” -Michael J. Fox

    #639883

    kiruvwife
    Member

    There is a prevalent misunderstanding among secular Jews, that in order to be “observant”, it’s ALL or NONE. When they learn that is not accurate, it opens the doors to the concept of climbing up the ladder of growth. Sometimes the rungs are easier to reach than others, but it’s which way you’re going on the ladder that counts in Hashems eyes.

    The feeling called guilt that has been implanted in human nature, is healthy when used properly. The yetzer hara is a master when it comes to using guilt to convince us that we “just can’t move forward if we can’t do it completely”. Healthy guilt comes in well allocated doses which move us to work on changing for the better. Our challenge is to be in tune with ourselves to see whether the guilt will propel us in the right direction, and then act on it.

    #639884

    an open book
    Participant

    i think guilt is very good. sometimes it works to stop myself from doing s/t i shouldnt (or not doing s/t i should), i remember what i felt like last time & imagine how guilty i’ll feel after doing it. & sometimes then its just not worth it.

    i also seem 2 hav a fear of failure, but im not much of a perfectionist. i just dont try new things sometimes, & NEVER perform cuz im scared i will embarrass myself. its horrible.

    #639885

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    charlie brown: you played the acting chairman of the YW CR board amazingly!!! outstanding buddy!!!

    #639886

    moish01
    Member

    kiruvwife, you would call me “secular?” i wouldn’t call myself that. not sure what i would call myself, actually.

    #639887

    nossond
    Member

    I think guilt is productive when your holding by not doing something or after you stop doing it. But when your not holding by stopping (aino yochol lichvosh yitzro), remorse and unhappiness about the situation is fine, but beating yourself up about it is unhealthy. You have to give yourself somewhat of a break, if you want to improve.

    #639888

    an open book
    Participant

    nossond: yes, i try to use it productively instead of just sitting around blaming myself – thats probably not good

    #639889

    myshadow
    Member

    moish I don’t think she was calling you secular, just making a general statement!

    #639890

    kiruvwife
    Member

    moish-definitely wouldn’t call you secular. Sorry if I came across that way. My point was, even people that never had the privilege of a Torah education are open to the idea of growth when they realize that it’s not all or none. Then they are willing to give self improvement a try.

    You said you don’t know what you would call yourself- how does REAL sound?

    #639891

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    but what’s it worth if you don’t attempt to finish up?

    Moish, the journey is important. Its not as much about succeeding as it is about trying to grow. Granted, success is preferable, but not always guaranteed.

    Imagine if a baby said it was just too hard to learn to walk so they didn’t try. They would be crawling around forever. Do you want to crawl?

    #639892

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Moish:

    Firstly, GOOD MORNING! How are you? This is really just a peek- not gonna be on now…

    I feel siyata dishmaya so strongly lately. I just picked up a book yesterday and read most of it. Guess what? It discusses the whole concept of good and bad guilt. It also discusses so many things you’ve been questioning in an amazingly straight forward, honest, short & to the point fashion. It’s a very easy read and very engaging. It’s also very short- so it’s perfect.

    I made notes while reading, and I planned to email the author for more insight and more in depth explanations on certain topics which really hit home. I wanted to do this for me… and for you.

    But I feel like I’m running out of time.

    You’re getting your cast off IY”H tomorrow and I feel that once you go back to your old ways you will not be as receptive to what I, or any of us, have to say. I wish I can share the entire book with you right here, right now. It has some really super answers. But I need to contact the author first and see how I can go about this.

    Please moish, sit tight and don’t leave us too quickly. There’s so much we didn’t discuss and a lot of unfinished business.

    I’m hoping you’re interested and still care. I want to get the best answers and explanations for you.

    All the best- please stick around

    Areivim

    #639893

    moish01
    Member

    kiruvwife – wow i compliment?!

    sjs, the key word there was attempt. and no, i don’t plan on crawling my whole life. just till i’m five.

    areivim, first of all, why in the world would you try a “good morning” HOURS before i’m up??

    secondly, i’m not going anywhere just cuz i’m getting my cast off. sure i’ll be out more often, but you gotta wean yourself off addictions… (i think this could be compared to marijuana – it’s not a physical addiction like nicotine… haha i should put this on the thread about marijuana)

    and like i’ve said, you’re a freak. i think you’re LOOKING for these books and articles. i’ll bet you went to eichler’s today, right?

    i’m still me. i was like this before i broke my leg, so why would that be different when i’m back to normal? i’ll just say what i said when i first joined: if you think you’re gonna be mekarev me, you’re wasting your time. i’m open to talking (i’m really not in real life, but for some reason on here it’s less threatening) but don’t think you’re gonna change me.

    #639894

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    sjs, the key word there was attempt. and no, i don’t plan on crawling my whole life. just till i’m five.

    Moish, you remind me of girls going off to seminary who say they are “going to grow.” What is going to change when you reach adulthood thats going to want to make you change your ways? Are you like Amish teenagers who like to experiment before accepting the Amish church?

    Moish, no one can mekarev you – except for you. And that will only happen if you want it to. Thats a choice you have to make. Just remember, the attempt to be a better person is worth it, even if you fail.

    #639895

    moish01
    Member

    yeah well the amish have it built into their system, don’t they? so those guys have it much easier.

    i dunno what’s gonna be when i’m older- i don’t exactly plan that far in advance, but i could imagine i’d want a normal family life. i’m sure i’d want a wife frummer than i am now and shabbos and yom tov and all that. that’s just normal.

    and i am trying to be a better person. isn’t everyone? doesn’t mean i’m gonna start davening vasikin and learning 3 seders a day, but a decent, honest, trustworthy person? sure.

    #639896

    an open book
    Participant

    moish01: the only person who can change you is yourself. & if u dont think u will, why are we even having this discussion? not that i mind, but i think we would be going in circles if you dont want to change at all in the first place. you’re the one who doesnt want to attempt s/t that wont be accomplished. so why talk about it if your not taking it seriously?

    re SJSinNYC: its supposed to be easiest to grow & change when you’re young. don’t you want to already be on the right track when you’re older & be more who you want to be already? now is a good time to start, not push it off till it gets even harder.

    (you probably know this already, right? i feel like most ppl have heard it before but whatever)

    this whole thing reminds me of my friend, i wish they were on here now reading this. or maybe they are & i just dont know (like we were saying s/o should do on a date)? nah, i dont think so…..if u r, tell me 😛

    #639897

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    moish- I’m back. That was a hard blow- thanks

    yes- I went to Eichler’s…. for a new CD! and happened upon this book. Nothing is coincidence- sorry pal

    I hope I’m allowed to quote the following from the book:

    “G-d created each and every one of us. He is fully aware of our struggles and challenges and takes this into consideration every step of the way. He knows that sometimes we will succeed and sometimes we won’t.

    Our job isn’t to be perfect.

    Our job is to try.”

    – Rabbi Hochberg

    (There is so much more to share from that book; background discussions that support this paragraph and make it that much more powerful and meaningful.)

    #639898

    moish01
    Member

    i don’t sound like i take it seriously? course i do. i just don’t think it’s gonna change my day-to-day life. that’s all.

    #639899

    an open book
    Participant

    moish01: since its already been established that ur day-to-day life consists of “eating, sleeping, cr, sleeping, etc”….i lost my train of thought 🙁 that happens to me a lot its weird.

    wait did u get ur cast off? i know it was soon but didnt know what day. won’t that start changing ur life? (as in u’ll actually have one :P)

    i’m still me. i was like this before i broke my leg, so why would that be different when i’m back to normal?

    like what? i got so confused, im just trying to understand what we’re talking about in the 1st place.

    ~a very mixed up book~

    #639900

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    an open book- why are you taking phrases out of context?

    #639901

    moish01
    Member

    areivim, i could stand up for myself.

    …an open book, why are you taking phrases out of context?

    jk, thanks areivim. it’s good to know you back me once in a blue moon.

    an open book, i have a life. it’s just on hold. and i’m getting my cast off tomorrow so P-A-R-T-Y!!! can’t wait.

    #639902

    myshadow
    Member

    moish, “i’m sure i’d want a wife frummer than i am now and shabbos and yom tov and all that.”

    Buddy how dyu think that happens? It ain’t magic unfortunately! Trust me I’m in shidduchim and because I also had a past I sometimes get red to guys that were at one point semi off the D. It makes a huge difference to me when the guy started changing and becomming frummer…if he was 15 or if he was 19!

    Just keep your eyes on what you want eventually out of life and hopefully that should stop you from doing things that are not the awesomest.

    #639903

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    re SJSinNYC: its supposed to be easiest to grow & change when you’re young. don’t you want to already be on the right track when you’re older & be more who you want to be already? now is a good time to start, not push it off till it gets even harder.

    I’m not 100% sure which comment this is in response to. Is it the seminary girl line? I just hate when people say “I’m delaying my personal growth until I get to Israel and then everything will change.” If you really want to change, you start the process. That doesnt mean you succeed in the process, or that you even make a noticable difference. Moish sounds like he really has started the process…

    (sorry moish, though you profess otherwise, I think you are a great person)

    #639904

    moish01
    Member

    myshadow, first of all, who said i’m gonna shidduch date?? trust me, shidduchim is the FARTHEST thing from my mind. i don’t give a flip – whoever wouldn’t wanna marry me in ten years from now – good luck to them. you think i’m gonna change my life so that i could get a date that i don’t even know, want, or care about?? you’re very funny. i’m all of 16. even yeshivish 16 year old guys are probably not thinking about it.

    and my point was that i’m sure i wouldn’t stay like this forever. eventually i’ll get a job and figure it out. for god’s sake, i’m only 16!

    #639905

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    myshadow- sounds like a great theory, but somehow I don’t think that’s stopping moish

    moish- the book has amazing PRACTICAL solutions that are so easy to implement. I was reading and suddenly realized that I do these things without realizing that I’m combating the yetzer hara- it just became a habit, this combative mechanism that auto-starts when I’m put to the test.

    I’ll try to share some tips in another post

    #639906

    myshadow
    Member

    areivim, yea I know cuz that was always my father’s line. He said do what you want but I’m telling you it’s gona ruin your name in shidduchim. But of course I was a stupid teenager and said I don’t really care right now about shidduchim, but guess what? He was right and I’m paying the price. So as for moish, just talking from experience!!

    #639907

    moish01
    Member

    hey wait a minute, now that sjs pointed that out from an open book…

    you gotta be kidding me. it’s easier to “grow and change” when you’re younger? why don’t i buy that? seems to me that i have a harder time than my grandfather does. just by the way.

    myshadow, first of all, i hate to break it to you, but seems to me like the guys are in demand. and second, i don’t want anyone who wouldn’t want me. and third – don’t worry, i still believe in god. and fourth, who says i’m gonna get involved with the stupid nit-picking shidduch world anyway? i think i’m skilled enough to find my own girl.

    #639908

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    good luck finding THE girl moish…. it’s a nasty world

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