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areivim, i did say that i believe in god, didn’t i?
so do we all… your point being? That Hashem is gonna help you out? you gotta do your part buddy
The system is there to help you, not knock you. and on this topic of “the system” and it’s “yes’s and no’s”. Why they’re there………. the book covers this so well. Everything becomes so clear. It’s great
areivim, you don’t think i ever try? you think i’m that cold?
and you’re trying real hard to get me to ask you what the book’s called…
apparently i didnt explain myself very well at all…im so confused by what everyone said i dont even remember exactly what i meant to say before. i give up.
sorry bout whatever i added to this. just ignore it if u want.
gbye
absolutely not! funny cuz I just realized that that’s how it must come across (trying to make you ask for the name of the book). I’m not like that- I say it the way it is, you don’t have to come begging
cold? Far from it. (Why are you putting thoughts in my head that were never there?)
However, it’s not called hishtadlus, bitachon or emunah when you say: i believe in g-d… and then don’t do your part
If you’re saying that you DO try, and that you are doing your part- then the irony can kill.
You said: you don’t care about how this might affect your future, you live for the moment, all you want to do is party, you hear what we have to say- but don’t want to change now, guilt is in the right direction?? I’m aiming to be a perfect bumb etc…
And you’re telling me you’re doing your part. Please explain
(I want to hear your side. I’m not accusing you)
i hear. but you have to understand where i’m coming from. i’m doing what i need to do right now. is it right? i admit that it’s not. do i want to be like this forever? no way. i hope i don’t stay like this. that would be depressing.
i know you’re gonna attack me when i say this, but right now my life is beyond my control. (yeah i know this is gonna trigger fifty million mussar shmoozes, but that’s how i feel)
that paragraph of random things that i said is the truth about how i feel. you want me to shut that out? sure. no problem. but it won’t go away. i sincerely care about alot of things, even if i don’t act that way. i’m not sure if you saw that post from the other day, but it’s painful to be doing something wrong and knowing how bad it really is. that’s when i think to myself, “i’d rather be an idiot and an am haaretz than have a tosfos pass through my mind at this exact moment.”
and by the way, i hope you know that i was kidding about being the perfect bum. i don’t think i do things l’hachis. at least i hope not. (ok, maybe that first cigarette ever…)
“i’m doing what i need to do right now. is it right? i admit that it’s not.”
I don’t understand- this is what you are referring to when you say you’re doing your part or is this an excuse for why you’re not doing your part?
“but right now my life is beyond my control”
I notice a lot of things you said indicate that you need to feel you’re in control. Things like: It’s my choice, I decided to do this or be this way…. nobody can force me to do what I don’t want to do…
I wish I can go in depth regarding needing to feel “in control”- especially during the teen years where things are mostly out of control. I want to summarize it for you, but don’t know where to begin. I have to read that part again & get back to you.
“I sincerely care about a lot of things, even if I don’t act that way”
this was kinda dizzying and deep. do you follow my train of thought? read it a few times till you chapp (i had to do that myself!)
Behave yourself and good night!
hisbonnenus, areivim. hisbonnenus.
and i’m not “acting” like i care. i do care.
when i “act” like i don’t care, it’s because i’m acting.
and never mind a yapper… you make me into such a sucker.
nosson, you know i’m gonna take advantage of that. the next time someone says “how could you do such a thing?” my answer is going to be “well, my yetzer hora is a bum…”
just kidding. thanks.
Moish dont you think that G-d created you and wants you to have the best life possible? thats why He gave you the Torah. Do you believe the Torah was given for your benefit or just as a general outline for life?
nosson, i hear, but i’m not with you 100%. it’s gotta be some of me. i don’t see every other person doing what i’m doing. so i could blame my yetzer hora, but only to an extent. unless you’re gonna say that my yetzer hora is that much stronger than the next guy’s? in that case i’d say i have no control, so what do you expect from me?
kapusta, i guess i believe all that. it’s way after that that i’m screwed up.
kapusta: if someone gives u a gift u have the right to say that u dont want it…i was never givent his choice with judiasm it was “ur born a jew so now u need to b jewish” (as an aside i dont find that very fair[dont say life isnt fair]…as much as it may b better for me and an amazing gift y cant i say no id rather not have it? and its not a very good gift if bec i dont listen to it i am going to burn is it?)
and someone is going to say something about being royalty and needing to act like a prince…please dont say that it is stupid and completly not true…after all arent we all sons of god (nothing to do with jesus) so just bec god may favor us doesnt make us any better)
sorry for rambling and im not even sure if this makes sense but come on its 5 in the morning when i am writing this.
teen: yes you do (and I’m in kind’ve a rush now so I’ll try to do more on this later) but if you would compare the average joe on the street and the average frum guy and see how their life differs. I was recently thinking that the goy has no aspirations in life and nothing to live for. only the present. the ones who are on a higher “level” marry, have kids, and maybe go for a career. but (from their side) why were they put here? and why would they be created if their not accomplishing anything?
next point: do you hear or do you firmly believe the Torah was given for your benefit? lets just say the recent medical studies that milk and meat together are very unhealthy. I won’t go into extensive detail here, but just think about how many diseases are normal in the secular world that are almost unheard of by frum jews. I once saw an interview with experienced people in the medical field (it was done around 20 years ago, so they’ve definitely made advances since then) and at that point they hadn’t discovered a need for circumsicion, but they knew that the eighth day was the best day to do it. may more examples but I gtg now. Sorry for being so philosophical for so early. 🙁
moish01: other ppl have other challenges you may or may not see them dealing w/, they may be struggling & u just dont know
also i thought there was equal amt of good & bad in a person? so if ur yetzer hora was stronger, doesnt that mean ur also stronger than the next guy?
oh i was going to stay out of this discussion 🙁
ok, this is a test. if im not making any sense 2 u i’ll just stop. for real. but just know im trying to help not make anything worse, im sorry if anything i say comes out wrong.
teen: If your mom gave you a pair of gloves when it was bitter cold outside, and just to prove your independence, you said “no, thanks, I don’t want them”. Then- you go out and your hands become numb, red, stiff etc. and you start really wanting those gloves. Your mother didn’t make your hands get numb & stiff. She did not punish you to show you that you really need those gloves… Just by not accepting her offer, you were the one that suffered in the end.
To start proving that we are the chosen people and ARE royalty… to start showing you why and how the Torah is all goodness…. it would take a few books and then some.
You are asking extremely deep, yet in a way very surface, fundamental questions.
teen: this is continueds from before and I just read this part now. if someone gives u a gift u have the right to say that u dont want it…i was never givent his choice with judiasm it was “ur born a jew so now u need to b jewish” (as an aside i dont find that very fair[dont say life isnt fair]…as much as it may b better for me and an amazing gift y cant i say no id rather not have it? and its not a very good gift if bec i dont listen to it i am going to burn is it?)
I kinda lost you at the end but that might be the 5 am thing kicking in (from my end) but I get the idea of what you’re saying. bottom line is, if you were born into a frum family thats the only way of life you were exposed to up until now. Judaism is not meant to be forced down your throat. I don’t want this to be taken out of context and have a bunch of replys about the wrongs of the school system but just one thing I want to mention.
The point of spending 15 years in a yeshiva/BY setting is to gain the tools necessary to realize the chachma of the Torah so later on in life you’ll know where to turn when something comes up. This can be learned from Chumish/Navi or Gemarah or Hashkafa or whatever it is. It can also be learned from any life situation and one day it’ll hit you in the face. No one is making you be frum, the idea is to make you want to be a frum jew. on your own.
Next point: we are chosen and it does make us better. We might start out equal but we have the potential to become so much greater than anyone. We are Yisrael, the highest level of creation but aside from that just think about it this way. If there is a father with 7 children. One he favors more than the other 6. Therefore he gives whatever he can thats extra to his favorite. Maybe a larger inheritance, or a better career. he is handing him the tools in which to become a better person. You are created and the manufacturer gave you a manual to navigate life with. It says what you can do because you have bechira and what the best thing to do is because you have a manual. It contains the ins and outs, and how to get out of tough situations. If you have that and someone else gets the same product without the guidelines. who would be better off? When you know the manufacturers intentions, you are capable of getting the most use out of it. Whats the benefit of having a product thats constantly breaking down on you?
sorry mods, this took ages to write and I can just imagine reading it. Good Shabbos.
areivim: your post is being repeated under my name :/
wow that thing is long. mods what happened to my first one?
kapusta: g’shabbos.$
nossond, when i become a magid shiur, you’ll be the first one invited.
an open book, basically you’re saying that the bigger the person, the bigger the test? no thanks, i’ll be small.
thank you qwerty or qwertz (which do you prefer? I think the latter makes you sound like a clock)
nossond: good job!
Moish: Kol hagadol mechaveiro yitzro gadol heimenu. You cant remain stationary. You have to choose between up or down. Dont you think that the Gedolei yisrael (I mean real ones) also went through their teenage years and had a yetzer hara. True, the world is on a much lower standard than it was all those years ago and things are much more readily available. But they had a different yetzer hara then. This is the bracha “sh’asa li kol tzarki” that you fight your yetzer hara, the way it is, now.
so if i go down i’m not big anymore, right? then according to that my yetzer should be weaker.
ames, freaky. dunno what to say.
but what point are you trying to make? that even though i’m only 16 i can’t take the time to figure it all out? i need it. you have no idea what it’s like to be choked.
so basically, if i die now i’ll have nothing to speak up for me? i hear. pray i don’t die just yet.
Moish you just contradiced yourself. If you go down so low than why would you even care enough about fighting the yetzer hara. But is that the way you want to live your life? Knowing you got rid of the yetzer hara by just giving into it so you wont have to deal with it anymore? What would life be worth then?
ames: i even learnt a lesson from that.$
oh and btw, Moish, one thing I forgot to add before, if you have a yetzer hara to (I’m assuming not, but lets say) to turn off a light on Shabbos. you fight it for the first three or four or five weeks and after that it doesn’t exist anymore. which brings us to the idea of hishtadlus which is definitely not for now.
ames: wow i learned something from that too!!!
Ames: u legit brought tears to my eyes. Wow. I got the chills.
Moish: don’t u want to marry a good girl who is pure and refined and not cheap? Don’t u want her to love and respect u and be loyal to u? Don’t u want beautiful happy kids who are respectfull and good and don’t do what u do?
nossond- I was referring to something simple, (well nothing is really so simple) but not something a person would have to work over an entire lifetime to fight, like not speaking loshon hara. but I was simply saying that once a person fights the yetzer, they build up “antibodies” to help fight the next battle and usually it gets easier if you make a definite hishtadlus.
kapusta- GREAT comparison!! never thought of it that way!! :o)
moish-wow-You’re only 16??? and you’re delving into all these introspective questions so intensely now–quite impressive. and yes, I think everyone here will daven for your arichas yomim v’shanim.
ames: u need to b 20 to be killed by heaven…but ur still judged and u can still die it just means if u do something that requires misa al yidei shomayim u dont get killed
here’s an eitza:
Example: you want to watch a bad movie. So- instead of fighting with your yetzer hara, you play a mind game (which is the perfect “antibody” since that is exactly what he is doing with you). You tell yourself “I WILL watch the movie, just not right now. I’ll watch it in an hour.” The hour will be hard, you’ll be watching the clock. But you made a bet and don’t want to be the loser- right? So the hour passes relatively well. Tell youself “I’m really going to watch it. Promise. Just give me another 20 minues and I’ll go. I’m telling you- I’ll really watch it. Just give me another 20 minutes.”
These 20 minutes will probably pass by very easily- you’re on a roll now and you are challenging yourself- and feeling good for coming out on top! Now- the yetzer hara does not give up so fast. So the 20 minutes are up and you still want to watch that movie. If you feel you really can’t push it off any longer- watch it! You are not going to conquer the yetzer hara and win the war in one fell swoop. But the time that you pushed off watching it is worth something BIG in Hashem’s book.
We are not here to be perfect and win the war, but to fight each battle as it comes to the best of our ability. In addition, this is a great starting point to take it further the next time we have this “test”.
Another eitzah:
Distract yourself! You’re really getting annoyed at Mr. A. The more he talks the angrier you get. Ok- time for small talk with Mr. B- or time to go pick up x,y,z… Whatever it takes- just take your mind off of that which is getting you deeper into doing the aveira. Turn in a completely different direction and see where it takes you.
Good luck to all!!
an open book, basically you’re saying that the bigger the person, the bigger the test? no thanks, i’ll be small.
moish01: yeah but if u were a (not exactly small, but) weak person, the smaller test would be just as hard for u so whats the difference? its like a 1st grader w/ hw thats hard for them, but of course easy for the 5th grader. sure, the 5th grader might have trouble with their own homework & wish they were in 1st grade, but in reality if they were on a 1st grade level, they would find the 1st hw just as difficult. so if u were not as capable as u are now, life would be just as challenging for u, & only easier in comparison to what u hav now.
ames: thanks for sharing that experience. it helps me put things in perspective a little.
areivimzehlazeh: wow that was good!!!!
areivim: thanx for the advice.$
I forgot to add: This is not my own advice. The basics are taken from a book written by Rabbi Hochberg
thanx, ames
ames & areivimzehlazeh: you have some good suggestions! thanx
areivim, ok i read through most of it. just one point: mind games don’t work on yourself. i’m smarter than to let myself be outsmarted by my own game. and that theory would work maybe for a movie. but there’s a whole lot worse going on than watching movies. that’s not even a battle, that’s a safe haven.
there’s no way that would work in life. what, that i’m not gonna carry a ball on shabbos? by the time i let myself the game would be over. (and if your point was not to play altogether, then we’re back to square one: i can’t ditch my friends.)
and- do you think I assume a movie is the worst you’ve done? I am not that red bearded guy- so stop thinking I’m so close minded & naive. You don’t need to spell it out for me- and I don’t want you to. These are just small ways to assist you, being that the yetzer hara wages such nasty battles.
and again(!!!)- don’t just drop everything cold turkey. Don’t not play ball on shabbos if you feel that will totally change your life. Start with something that will not affect your day to day in such a huge way. YOU NEED TO START SMALL & SLOW! Nobody needs to know, nobody even has to realize. It’s something small and private between you and Hashem (and maybe areivim if you wanna share ;))
moish01: it doesnt always have to be by minutes. maybe you could decide that you’ll only do it twice this week or this month or w/e, just saying ” i dont feel like doing it now, maybe next time. pushing it off once is still holding yourself back even if its not permanent
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