December 1, 2020 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1924765
I’m more opposed to social media bullies masquerading as do-gooders, attacking large segments of the frum community.
THIS has been exactly my point since june. But asking people to be mentchlich got interpreted as anti mask.December 1, 2020 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1924769
Yserbius- thank you so much for changing your tone. I hope you see the difference it made.
I’ve kind of grown tired of this treadmill, tho I thankfully don’t feel berated anymore, i just don’t see ever becoming on the same page. For example, take this comment of yours:
My problem right now, is that you keep pushing this cheshbon of mask wearing as a personal choice. That it’s effectiveness is exaggerated and all those people like me who have issues with the anti-mask brigade are wrong.
I DON’T believe it’s personal choice, I think people need to follow their rav/doctor. I DO believe you are exaggerating but i DO NOT think everyone like you is wrong if you are following your rav/doctor. I DO NOT believe there is an anti mask brigade. I believe your conclusions about masks effecicacy, based on your rav/doctor seems to have made YOU think that it gives you the okay to say EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, and not entitled to follow THEIR own rav/doctor.
For me, it’s about how you treat people, not about the mask.
I really hope this helps.December 1, 2020 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1924959
@syag-lchochma The issue is that I don’t think anyone is following their doctors. People find “doctors” on the internet or they pick and choose what they want to hear, then ignore the advice of their local physicians. If people were listening to doctors, many more people would be wearing masks, not making large simchas, and it’s very possible we would have seen less deaths and illness.December 1, 2020 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1925004
The issue is that I don’t think anyone is following their doctors.
I hear you, but I disagree. I have personally heard from some prominent doctors that the masks are not necessary or helpful. But they do agree that sick people should stay home.
I do agree that simchas are irresponsible, and selfish. My son got married and I had not one friend there. But the simcha people are NOT the same ilk as the “walking around without masks” people.
And the mask compliance is far from 100% but also far from 0% so that analogy of yours doesn’t work off of paper. There will always be idiots everywhere, but there are responsible people out there who have received different information than you have thru RELIABLE sources and all I’m asking is that you give them respect.December 2, 2020 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1925079
@syag-lchochma I learned a new phrase the other day called “The Paradox of Tolerance”. Basically, it means that you can’t put all sides of every argument on equal grounds, else we will be tolerating Nazis for their viewpoints. I find that this falls into that category. While I’m sure there are some health care professionals who aren’t as aggressive in recommending masks as others, I doubt there are many. And if there are any who say that wearing a mask makes no difference, there certainly isn’t enough to account for the sheer number of people who claim to quote them. I mean, the biggest frum doctors offices in Brooklyn, Monsey, and Lakewood have all advocated for mask wearing as much as possible. Whomever these alleged doctors are that say that masks don’t help at all certainly are a minority and don’t even begin to account for the sheer numbers of people who refuse to put on masks.
I think a lot of it comes from people hearing what they want to hear and ignoring the rest. A relative said to me the other day that he doesn’t wear a mask because he heard that a certain prominent doctor said that only a full hazmat suit will protect a person from COVID. I asked if Dr. Hazmat tells people not to wear masks, and what does he think of masks protecting well people from someone who is ill, and he didn’t have an answer.December 2, 2020 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1925081
@avram-in-md OK good, just as long as we are in agreement that masks help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and people should wear them as much as possible when around others.
@daas-yochid If you’re asking me to name specific people, places, or organizations, sorry but you’re question will have to go unanswered.
I think you may be surprised how not uncomfortable a mask is if you give yourself a chance to wear one for a little while. The people who claim they “can’t” wear masks are by and large just not used to it, or haven’t found the right one. There’s no danger of loss of oxygen, such that anti-Semites like Alex Jones claim, so being “unable” to wear one is more like being unable to bear wearing one.December 2, 2020 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1925121
Yserbius – it seems to me that you have so much confidence in your viewpoint that there really is no room for anyone else. Our legitimate concerns become imagined, physical strughles become psychological inadequacy and serious conversations with prominant doctors become unknown searches online. I appreciate your having stepped back a bit to hear us out (each separately) but i don’t hear a lot of flexibility. I do feel bad that it is difficult for you to make room for other realities but i appreciate that you are being sincere in your position. I hoped to open your eyes to a wider reality. I failed. But at least i tried. Best of luck to you and stay safe.December 2, 2020 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1925243
@syag-lchochma Like everyone else in the universe, I consider myself to be pretty open minded. I generally change, or at least question, my worldview if it’s ever challenged. On this particular subject, though, I have yet to see anything even approaching a legitimate challenge. It’s like Flat Earth Theory or 9/11 Conspiracies. On one hand, there are tons of scientists and other experts giving a pretty reasonable explanation to things, on the other hand, there are a lot of random people on the Internet and “experts” that are often revealed to either be not experts of simply misquoted.
I’m inflexible not because I’m an inflexible guy, but because I haven’t yet seen a decent argument to sway me.
“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.” – Terry PrachettDecember 4, 2020 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1925963
@daas-yochid If you’re asking me to name specific people, places, or organizations, sorry but you’re question will have to go unanswered.
No, of course that’s not what I was asking.December 6, 2020 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1926109
@daas-yochid Then can you please ask your question again? Because I believe I answered it in three different ways, but I guess I either misread your question or was looking at the wrong comment.December 14, 2020 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1928626
You seem to be upset at individuals who don’t wear mask (aside from institutions which don’t mandate it).
Are you upset only when they refuse to wear masks where they are mandated, or even where they are optional?December 15, 2020 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1928850
@Daas-yochid Does it matter? I’m upset when, after we have seen so much pain and suffering from COVID-19, that people won’t even do the smallest of acts to try and mitigate it. Yes I’m upset at people who refuse to wear masks where it’s mandated. I’m upset with people or institutions who refuse to mandate basic COVID-19 safety protocols. I’m upset with various media outlets downplaying the dangers of the virus and acting as if wearing a mask is a personal choice. And I’m upset with people who ignore or directly contradict the advice of their local physicians because they read something on the internet that scares them.
Let’s get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal. It doesn’t restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels. It doesn’t make it hard for people to hear you, and it’s not some form of government mandated mind control. It’s a piece of fabric you put in front of your face, little different than a scarf or muffler that a person would wear on a cold day. And if it even causes a 50% decrease in viral spread (studies show it’s closer to 75 to 90%), it’s well worth the mild uncomfortableness to keep people around you safe.December 16, 2020 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1928959MottelParticipant
There is something called emunah and bitachon which people seemed to have lost these days.A minyan is essential. PERIOD. There is no reason why people shouldnt daven with a minyan. Dont think that kochi votzem yadi and flipping out about stupid masks is gonna save you from corona, cuz if you do, you obviously havent gotten the message that hashem sent us. We thought that we knew everything, the doctors thought they knew about all the deadly sicknesess, and hashem is saying “Oh really? Lets see about that.”and then turned the entire worl upside down in a matter of days. I agree, if you are not feeling well, use your seichel. If you feel really bad, talk to your rov and ask him what to do.People make a mistake thtat they only listen to the doctor and not the rov. You take the info that the doctor gave you and you explain it to the rov (or any daas torah)and ask how far you should follow it.The rov knows about refuos froma toradike point, even though he isnt trained. YOUR DOCTOR IS NOT G-D. TORAH COMES BEFORE ALL.VENISHMARTEM MEOD LENAFSHOSEICHEM. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN FREAK OUT!!!!!!!!!December 17, 2020 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1929468
@Mottel Absolutely. Yeshivos and Minyanim are essential to continue our teffilos and avodah to Hashem Yisborach. Unfortunately, we are in the midst of a pandemic and we have to follow the advice of Chazal and our Rabbonim to try and mitigate the suffering. So please keep on wearing masks so we can keep the minyanim and Yeshivos open so people won’t Chas V’Shalom get sick just from davening like we had last Purim!December 17, 2020 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1929561crackersParticipant
It is wierd but in my community no one wears masks. Not in my work place or in shul I can’t think of any one who social distanced yet none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike Tisha bav and succos which is funny because Tisha bav is three weeks of no weddings so no geust to catch it from. in my particular chassidus no one passed away from covid and we are very big.(this is my country} in New York is a different story.i don’t see where a piece of cloth that is so thin will save you from this wily disease.
Ask any one they can share you story of people who were locked in their basements and left once to go somewhere or opened their door for just one exception and were deadly I’ll.yet any one that is calm going on with life either got over it or never caught it. Nebach the fear is worse than the illness.December 17, 2020 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1929565
“Let’s get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal.”
It may not be for you, but it is for others. And until you develop enough empathy to see that, you will have difficulty convincing them of the correctness of your position.
“It doesn’t restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels.”
In some situations, it can.
“It doesn’t make it hard for people to hear you,”
Blatantly false. Widespread mask use has significantly exacerbated communication issues for people hard of hearing. Some masks with thicker layers do in fact block some sound, but a bigger issue is the inability to rely on lip reading and the facial components of ASL Many people with minor hearing loss who unconsciously rely on lip reading in louder settings have discovered their hearing loss issues due to this pandemic. Arguing that exacerbating hearing problems for some is necessary is perhaps a valid argument to make, but to dismiss the problem is heartless because then nobody will realize the need to mitigate such problems, and it undermines the validity of your argument.December 17, 2020 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1929654
@avram-in-md We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one. The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000. The majority of those who claim they can’t wear masks, simply haven’t found one that they feel comfortable in and don’t see a pressing need to wear one. So it’s a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who can’t wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who can’t wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) won’t be inconvenienced.
And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someone’s oxygen. It’s literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.
It is wierd but in my community no one wears masks.
goes hand in hand with
none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike Tisha bav and succos
If no one wears masks, there will be massive spikes followed by a lot of quiet. That’s literally what you’re describing. I believe you don’t know of anyone who was niftar, but I have a difficult time believing that no one in your community got seriously ill from COVID.
i don’t see where a piece of cloth that is so thin will save you from this wily disease.
Truth is, it won’t. What the masks do is prevent a sick person from getting another person sick! Diseases like COVID travel in droplets of saliva and that’s where most people catch it from. If you wear a mask, your saliva gets trapped and you won’t get someone sick. And it’s not good enough to say “But I feel fine!”, because we’ve seen that people can have the virus, feel fine, and still infect other people. Masks are not 100% effective, but it’s effective enough that there’s no reason not to wear one.December 17, 2020 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1929694
crackers: none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike
Covid propagation seem to be highly clustered. That is, it circulates in one closely-knit community, and community across the river is safe. Then, one person drives over the bridge for a party, and in a week, second community is affected. A lot of early patterns about what works and not was disproven because of that. If you compare countries/states/cities over multiple months, they belong to a smaller number of patterns then over a week.
So, if you are/were in a safe cluster, you can protect the cluster by:
1) isolating from other communities: if someone visited other communities, they should not go to shul or send kids to school for 2 weeks/getting neg test. This seems an easy solution, but community leaders should insist on that. Our community had several cases recently, all related to this issue.
2) SD and masks all the time so that if a case comes in, propagation slows in the 1-2 weeks before the cases show up. This seems to be hard as witnessed on this board due to a combination of love for freedom, political views, lack of education, community leadership, and sheer stubbornness
3) warning system – when someone has symptoms, he should immediately let all his shul/school/community contacts know, before he gets test results after 3 daysDecember 17, 2020 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1929686charliehallParticipant
“A minyan is essential. PERIOD. There is no reason why people shouldnt daven with a minyan. ”
No it isn’t. And everyone here knows that. Desirable, yes. Essential? Everyone can fulfill tefillah requirements praying alone.December 17, 2020 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1929687charliehallParticipant
“YOUR DOCTOR IS NOT G-D. TORAH COMES BEFORE ALL”
Doctors aren’t God but neither are rabbis. And on health matters we follow health experts not rabbis. Torah says we prioritize life over all mitzvot save three.December 17, 2020 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1929701
No charlie, you are wrong. You follow your rabbis on halachic matters. And if the halachic matter involves a meducal issue, you supply him with the information. If you want to adk your doctor what to do, that’s medicine, asking a doctor if you can go to minyan is halacha. Doctors don’t pasken halacha. Ask your doctor what requirements are needed to keep you safe, and adk your rav how to impliment that within halacha. Period.December 17, 2020 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1929704
Avram, we have already established that the rise in suicide, overdoses and abuse does not matter to him. He only is worried about himself, not those dropping dead around him from covid related fallout. Give it up.December 18, 2020 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1929712
Syag >> No charlie, you are wrong. You follow your rabbis on halachic matters
First, there seems to be a room for being more careful personally. Namely, we feed a patient on Yom Kippur when either a doctor OR a patient say so. Is there an acharon that says a Rav should review their opinion?
2nd, there is a diversity of halakhic opinions here. I was very impressed by R Meir Twersky’s psak early on. I quoted him here before and do not remember any response. One thing he said sounded true: we generally recommend listening to your respected doctor, but due to high uncertainty of the new virus, we should listen to worst fears of several opinions. At the same time, discussing the plans with one of a pretty reasonable local Rabbis, his initial position was “Let’s trust this doctor X”.
Another early warning came from R Heineman: when asked whether it is OK for several families to stay nearby to form a minyan outside, he answered – if you do that at the time when this is forbidden, it will lead to some Jews being denied ventilators by someone saying – they caused it to themselves.
So, when asking for an opinion, you may want to make sure you ask someone who heard enough factual information and has enough historical depth. If you are not sure, provide that information to him.December 18, 2020 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1929718
Always- if I am reading correctly you are supporting my point exactly. A rav is saying to follow the doctor.December 18, 2020 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1929804
@syag-lchochma I thought we were being civil, what happened to you?
There is no way to fully mitigate mental health and economic issues until the pandemic is over. The best we can do is try to protect as many people as possible which involves some sacrifice. If we tell people to act as if everything is normal, we’ll Chas v’Shalom have a repeat of Purim 2020. If we tell people to go into lockdown until everyone is vaccinated, it will be just as bad.
So we compromise. You can go out, but please wear a mask. If it’s between locking up 100 people who can’t wear a mask or locking up 1000 elderly people because it’s dangerous for them to walk around when there’s unmasked people spreading COVID, I don’t think there’s much of an ethical dilemma as to who’s mental health we should be more concerned about.December 19, 2020 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1929970
Yserbius: So we compromise.
I think you are right. And we need to look wider at this point, not just mask on/off. Think what things can be improved for yourself and others.
– Know old people getting lonely? call them, ask for their advice, ask them to help you checking kids’ homework…
– Kids are tired at school in masks every day? keep them home for a day or two and learn with them, even if you are not strong to do it every day
etcDecember 19, 2020 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1929995
It may not be for you, but it is for others. And until you develop enough empathy to see that, you will have difficulty convincing them of the correctness of your position.
I was going to respond to Yserbius’ erroneous assertion that masks are no big deal but you said it better than I could have.December 20, 2020 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1930020
@daas-yochid sigh. You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks. Please don’t expect me to take whatever else you say seriously.December 20, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1930203
It’s a shame you need to resort to twisting my words, along with assorted other lies, to make your point.December 20, 2020 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1930215
“We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one.”
There’s no way to make accurate measurements if we can’t even be honest about what we are trying to measure.
“The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000.”
Oooh, I can make up statistics too. That should be fun and constructive! Maybe I should just be grateful that you’re allowing 1 in a thousand. Earlier in the thread you were at zero.
“The majority of those who claim they can’t wear masks, simply haven’t found one that they feel comfortable in and don’t see a pressing need to wear one.”
And on what do you base this assumption?
“So it’s a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who can’t wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who can’t wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) won’t be inconvenienced.”
“And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someone’s oxygen. It’s literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.”
If you’re referring to the study I think you are referring to, there was pretty much no oxygen depletion measured in the blood, a bit of increased CO2 that was still within OSHA standards, but the measurements of the air in the pocket between the mask and the face were well outside of OSHA standards for both low oxygen and high CO2. The study participants were healthy healthcare workers with proper training and fitting of the equipment. I have put a pulse oximeter on my own finger and sat on the couch for 20 minutes in a cloth mask. When breathing normally only, my O2 saturation gradually fell from 98/99 to 95. I could keep it up near 98/99 by frequently sighing, yawning, and tugging on the mask while inhaling. I have (usually) well controlled asthma, but wonder how easy it would be to keep up the O2 saturation if I were having a significant asthma episode (not that I’d be out and about at the grocery store with bad asthma – but what about someone who needs to go in for a breathing treatment?). Or someone with COPD, or congestive heart failure, or Covid, etc.December 20, 2020 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1930216
“You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.”
Before we continue this discussion, are you actually anti-facemask and trying to do a false-flag troll by making pro-mask arguments as odious and unproductive as possible? It’s almost like you are working from a playbook of what not to do to persuade others.December 20, 2020 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1930309
@avram-in-md I’m referring to an old comment that @daas-yochid made in which he fabricated a story about Hatzalah (you know, the organization that has been begging people to wear masks and socially distant since last Purim?) running around saving people who were dying because they wore face masks.
I don’t know what studies you’ve read, but there’s literally no evidence that wearing a mask for even extended periods of time will reduce oxygen levels or increase CO2 levels. Fakert, there are multiple studies that show zero physical adverse side effects from wearing a face mask, even for people with respiratory issues. Which is why I’m extremely skeptical of anyone who talks about large swaths of people that cannot wear masks. Who are these people? What sort of masks are they wearing that have material so thick it can actually inhibit airflow? If it is so common, why aren’t we seeing schoolchildren dropping like flies when they sit in a classroom wearing a mask for 1 to 2 hours at a time?
Sure there are those who have psychological issues, like panic attacks when wearing a mask, or people who have abnormally large or small facial features that make masks extremely uncomfortable. But impossible? No. Dangerous? Absolutely not.
Please, before you talk about the dangers of wearing a mask, call up your doctor. Not some doctor you heard of on the Internet, but the physician you’ve trusted with your health since before COVID. And ask them if it’s better to wear or not to wear a mask. If they say not to, then we can continue this conversation. Otherwise, I think we’re done here.December 20, 2020 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1930353
Yserbius- you really don’t see the chutzpah in your words? You really think you can distort everyone’s opinions and facts and expect to have credibility? It’s bad enough to distort the words of the health professionals, but a fellow yid right to his face?
Here is your words:
sigh. You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.
Here is the quote you are referencing:
And I witnessed a guy leaving davening on Yom Kippur after a half hour because he couldn’t breathe. Almost called Hatzola.
Minimally, you owe him an apology. Really, you owe everyone else one too. Instead of getting random information online, please contact a real doctor with actual knowledge and expetience and then get back to us. But we want to hear what he really says.December 21, 2020 9:56 am at 9:56 am #1930538
“I’m referring to an old comment that @daas-yochid made in which he fabricated a story about Hatzalah”
You fabricated that comment and falsely attributed it to him. And it’s astonishing that you’re doubling down because what DaasYochid actually wrote is plain for everyone to read. And thus I start to doubt your intentions entirely.
“I don’t know what studies you’ve read”
I was referring to Raymond J Roberge, Aitor Coca, W Jon Williams, Jeffrey B Powell, Andrew J Palmiero: Physiological impact of the N95 filtering facepiece respirator on healthcare workers in the May 2010 edition of Respiratory Care, which is a study I’ve seen referenced in several articles regarding mask safety.
“Fakert, there are multiple studies that show zero physical adverse side effects from wearing a face mask, even for people with respiratory issues.”
Please share the citations.
“Which is why I’m extremely skeptical of anyone who talks about large swaths of people that cannot wear masks.”
If someone tells me that something is extremely difficult for them, I tend to believe them a lot more than someone who is blatantly lying and making stuff up on the internet.
“Sure there are those who have psychological issues, like panic attacks when wearing a mask, or people who have abnormally large or small facial features that make masks extremely uncomfortable.”
So you finally admit this, albeit bizarrely. Now take the next step into the world of empathy. Not necessarily to say that you’re fine if these people refrain from ever wearing masks, but at least to acknowledge that it’s a true challenge, and stop dismissively pontificating on how easy mask wearing is. If mask wearing is really so important to you, which I doubt, encourage people. Treat them like they’re doing something big and important, not trivial. Acknowledge the difficulties they have and offer sympathy and amelioration, not scorn. If you think people would benefit from finding just that right mask, then start a mask gemach that allows people to try on different types, and then give them 5 of the ones that work best. Things like that will go much further than internet bullying, though they may be less fun.
<blockquote”call up your doctor. Not some doctor you heard of on the Internet, but the physician you’ve trusted with your health since before COVID. And ask them if it’s better to wear or not to wear a mask.”
You’re probably not going to like my doctor’s opinion.December 21, 2020 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1930540
@Avram-In-MD and @syag-lchochma I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place. If he saw one person keel over choking because of a mask, then obviously Hatzalah should have been overtaxed in dealing with breathing problems from all the people wearing masks. But they weren’t, nur vus the story was a fabrication.
You mentioned a study yourself that shows no difference in oxygen or CO2 levels after wearing a mask. Why are you blibing shver on it? Because they didn’t stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face? Would it matter if the individual was masked or not if they’re literally breathing on a CO2 meter? Would it matter if the individual was old or young, sick or healthy, if they’re still measured as breathing the same air?
If someone says that something that is physically possible but difficult for them, and it’s a very important thing to do because the safety of others is at stake, my response would be “try harder”. For some people it’s difficult to go through a day without alcohol. Would you tell them that it’s OK for them to drive and put people in danger?
I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked “Are you makpid on masks?” and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.
So when you tell me that people have “difficulties” with masks, I ask if they are the same people that still go to crowded mikvahs every morning. If they are the same people who ignore social distancing restrictions. If they are the same people who put their whole family on a plane to visit friends. Because in my experience, 99% of the time they are.
You’re probably not going to like my doctor’s opinion.
I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients “It’s better if you don’t wear a mask”. In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.December 21, 2020 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1930559
Based on your distortions of posts right in front of us both, i have no reason to believe your stories are anything but fabrications and further distortions. Which pretty much nullifies you from having a discussion. We don’t argue there is benefit for masks (I think each one of us said we wear them but you weren’t even listening) as much as your inappropriate method of strong arming and degrading. Try
taking some of Avrum’s advice on how to treat people, or how not to. And you can also try just sticking with the facts.December 21, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1930569
I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place.
There’s nothing logicical about your conclusions. The story is 100% true, and your fantastic distortion is one of a series of falsehoods you have posted here.
You even had the chutzpah to post that someone is just as able to be heard through a mask as without, which is blatantly false as anyone who has compared can attest to.
Your assertion that masks are actually not uncomfortable is another big lie as many can attest to. Maybe for you, but your unwillingness to accept that others have a different reality is a distortion of the truth and indeed reflects the lack of empathy to which you admit.December 21, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1930580
@syag-lchochma I would be more civil if people would be more civil and logical. When asked for the reasons why people don’t wear masks, we keep getting back to “it’s difficult for a lot of people”. NU? And that’s a reason? We aren’t arguing about the importance of wearing masks, like you said. But it’s such a small, narische thing to hang ones life on. As far as I’m concerned, the only ones here distorting the truth are those who say that it’s literally sakonos nefoshos for some people to wear masks. When I brought that up (I admit, in a somewhat exaggerated fashion) you all attacked me. So nu? Is it dangerous for people to wear masks or not? If it’s dangerous, then what I said of people dying from mask wearing must be true. If it isn’t, then they previous comment about calling Hatzalah on a guy choking on his mask must have not been true.
You think my stories are fabrications? Tell me truthfully that you don’t know of any simcha in the last eight months where hundreds gathered indoors with no masks or social distancing. Tell me you never heard of that happening.
And no. We are not all in agreement on the importance of wearing masks. @Avrum-in-MD claims (contrary to a scientific study that he himself linked to) that masks lower oxygen intake and increase CO2. @Daas-yochid talked about how masks are dangerous for some people to wear. And you have defended both of them and said that “it’s not right” that we should argue.December 21, 2020 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1930620
No point in responding when you refuse to hear what others are saying and need to distort in order to make your point.December 21, 2020 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1930665
May I suggest before continuing we all read Rabbi Avi Shafran’s latest article entitled “Mask Ask”?December 21, 2020 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1930679
“I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place”
No, you made up your own story that was different from DaasYochid’s and then made a wild extrapolation from that made up story. Logic isn’t even in the same galaxy.
“Because they didn’t stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face?”
Lol, if you actually read the study’s abstract or what I wrote about it, you’d see that they did indeed do that.
“I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked “Are you makpid on masks?” and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.”
So you need to make a choice. Do you actually want to try and effect change, or do you just want to spew hatred like an out-of-control fire hose? Given your inability to read and understand what people have written here in this thread, I’m guessing you have failed to understand where people are coming from “in real life” as well. So perhaps the source of your frustration is not due to those around you.
“I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients “It’s better if you don’t wear a mask”.”
He feels the response to the pandemic is wildly disproportionate and has caused considerable collateral damage that was unnecessary, and does not require his patients to wear masks during visits. I don’t know how you define “local” doctor. He practices in my area, but he is not frum.
“In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.”
And the loudness in press releases and twits and fakebooks and the like is actually counterproductive in my opinion, because the community perceives that the yelling is meant more for gentile consumption. “Look at me! I’m embarrassed by my own community!” Really, has anyone anywhere ever said, “oh wow I changed my mind because somebody screamed at me on social media”?December 21, 2020 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1930695
“When asked for the reasons why people don’t wear masks, we keep getting back to “it’s difficult for a lot of people”. NU? And that’s a reason?”
I have not answered that question in this thread, and that wouldn’t be my answer to that question.
“@Avrum-in-MD claims (contrary to a scientific study that he himself linked to) that masks lower oxygen intake and increase CO2.”
There must be some other Avrum in MD on this thread whose posts are inexplicably invisible to me, because I never said any such thing.
“And you have defended both of them and said that “it’s not right” that we should argue.”
Argue all you want; this is an extremely important issue for almost everyone in the world right now. I’m just pointing out that if you want to claim the mantle of Science and Logic and Rightness, you should not be misinterpreting, twisting, fabricating, or twisting logic yourself. And further than that, if you desire to change minds rather than just scream into the void at your perceived enemies, you have to understand where your audience is coming from.December 21, 2020 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1930700
May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafran’s article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being “disrespectful” or “hateful”.December 21, 2020 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1930704
Does he include made up stories about a bachur going to a wedding and sending all the rebbeim to the hospital? Or perhaps one about a bachur who goes home for shabbos and infects a whole yeshiva who obviously all had absolutelyno contact with anyone else ever except him? I doubt it. He probably sticks to things that really happened. It’s an art.December 21, 2020 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1930714
I have to tell you that if you think your posts resemble Rabbi Shafran’s on any level than you have a lot to learn about yourself. I would seriously recommend you ask someone close to you to sit with you and give you some honest feedback on the gap between what you mean, and what you write.December 22, 2020 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1930828MadeAliyahParticipant
Guys, come to Israel for a week and you’ll throw up the next time you see a mask.
Masks didn’t stop COVID from spreading, people from losing jobs, bochurim from roaming the streets or the country from going into lockdown after lockdown.
Mask are a horrible way of controlling the virus (and sorry Rabbi Shafran it’s been half a year and I still haven’t gotten used to them, in fact it only gets worse).
How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?
If you’r scared that COVID will kill you, STAY AT HOME and let everyone else live a normal life.December 22, 2020 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1930938
@syag-lchochma It wasn’t a made up story. If there were private messages on CR I can tell you the Yeshiva where it happened at. Everyone tangentially connected to the place knows what happens and are somewhat embarrassed to speak about it. A different, similar, story happened at the same time in a different place close by.
The scary truth is that COVID-19 may only have a 1 in 10,000 kill rate, but it’s extremely contagious. And there are tons of documented cases where a single person was the vector for infecting hundreds within a very short time. Not to say that this will always happen, but given the “right” circumstances a superspreader event is something very possible. The exponential infection rate of COVID-19 is insane, far worse than pretty much any other common virus out there.
On the other hand, the story about a guy choking on his face mask to the point where Hatzalah was almost called, flies in the face of not only every bit of science and evidence out there but also basic logic.
Look, I started off in a respectable manner. Continuing from the original question of asking people why they are opposed to masks. I think the only thing that may have been controversial was when I said that many people are being ga’avadik by not wearing masks, since a lot of the claims are about “me” getting sick while ignoring the stuff about “you” getting sick.
But everything I said you would jump on and claim that I’m “bullying”. And when I would respond to people who made outlandish claims about the dangers in face masks, I would get frustrated and upset which only caused you to ignore everything else I’ve said and double down on your bully remarks.
@avram-in-md I don’t think you’ll find an honest person who will say that the government’s response to the pandemic was appropriate and proportional. I mean, we aren’t locking ourselves in the basement, not washing our groceries in bleach anymore (at least I hope not!) like what was proposed back in March. But I wonder if you asked your doctor if you should wear a face not when going among other people what she/he would say.
Let’s take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not? Do you think that most people who don’t wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?December 22, 2020 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1930948
I followed through with your suggestion, perhaps you should follow mineDecember 22, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1930973
How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?
I honestly can’t tell at this point if people are being serious or not.
@Syag-Lchochma What do you suggest I should do? And, let’s be honest over here, is there anything I can say that you won’t immediately accuse me of being a bully or worse?December 22, 2020 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1931026crackersParticipant
It is clear that the government ability to manipulate us is working so powerful. The only way to get people to comply to any rule is to pit one human against another. If they tell you mask up for others not for yourself they are doing it to manipulate you in compliance BC now I am the horrible one for making you sick. When ever they want compliance in a place that will make people think twice why they should do it they will try to make you feel guilty that you are killing the world.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.