Anti-Face Mask YWNCR

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  • #1923306
    AriHaleviRosman
    Participant

    Dear anti-Face Maskers of YWN Coffee Room,
    Why are you so opposed to wearing Face Masks in indoor minyanim and smachos during this pandemic?

    And if a member of your family is nifter from COVID after you attend a super-spreader event, do you continue to attend smachos or do you follow 讛诇讻讜转 讗讘诇讜转 by refraining from doing so for 11 months?

    #1923337
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    This question is disgusting.

    #1923342
    AriHaleviRosman
    Participant

    No, this question is not disgusting.
    Rather, I鈥檓 being brutally honest.

    #1923363
    Meno
    Participant

    The fact that you’re being honest doesn’t make it less disgusting.

    #1923365
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    What’s disgusting about it?

    #1923370
    AriHaleviRosman
    Participant

    The fact that I am hurting your subjective feelings and making you FEEL disgusted doesn鈥檛 answer my question in the OP.

    #1923379
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Honest about what? You’re asking a question. Based on pure garbage you have gleaned from the haters online mind you. If you wear a mask and social distance and manage to infect and kill someone anyway, ch”v, do you pretend that you didn’t and blame it on someone else? I’m just asking honestly. If you attend a protest and pretend it’s not a super spreader and you kill someone, ch”v, do you pretend it’s their own fault because the governors also said they weren’t super spreaders? I’m asking honestly about that one too?

    Can we stop now?

    #1923397
    rightwriter
    Participant

    They already got you wearing a muzzle, now all that’s left is to put you on a leash, aka vaccine. Then we will see how courageous you are.

    #1923399
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    rightwriter – a facemask is not a muzzle. And spreading comments like that online to suck people into that hype is wrong. If you don’t want to wear a mask, don’t wear one. But to make it out to be something it isn’t to validate your perspective is dishonest. We are in the middle of a pandemic, we need to be careful what information we spread anonymously with nothing to support it.

    #1923413
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Dear AriHaleviRosman,

    “Why are you so opposed to wearing Face Masks in indoor minyanim and smachos during this pandemic?”

    WHAAAT? How could you even breathe the words indoor minyan and simcha out into a world where Covid exists? You heinous MURDERER! How could you even think of stepping outside of your house? Preventing Covid is the one and only thing that matters in this world now. Stay home with your windows sealed shut, because that’s much, much more effective at preventing transmission than a stupid mask.

    #1923416
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The real muzzle is not the piece of cloth itself, but rather the Facebook and Twitter driven culture of bullying and shaming anyone who dares ask a question about anything deemed an ikkar emunah of the corporate sponsored religion of capital-S “science.”

    #1923428
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    I thought the CDC said masks don’t help

    #1923462

    You didn鈥檛 hear there was a huge spike in Williamsburg after the wedding where no one was wearing masks?

    I didn鈥檛 either

    #1923473
    Theprophet
    Participant

    Dear ArigalevRosmen
    Masks don鈥檛 work , they can only protect from a virus 0.4 microns or bigger , corona being 0.1 microns will go straight thru your mask .
    Let鈥檚 be honest the reason why you wear a mask is cause the TV told you to and not because you did any substantial research the prove that masks prevent Covid , so you probably won鈥檛 take it off until the TV tells you to !
    And yes it鈥檚 a muzzle it鈥檚 part of there Psychological warfare and I guess it鈥檚 working pretty well .

    #1923577
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Dear @theprophet,

    You are making a common error in your assumptions.

    A mask won’t work to protect you if someone with COVID sneezes on you, that is right. But it protects others from your own sneezing COVID saliva by not allowing you to spread it.

    Since we don’t know for sure who has COVID and who doesn’t, everyone should wear masks as a measure of Bein Adam LaChaveiro to make sure we don’t C”V accidentally make our friends ill.

    #1923601

    @theprophet,
    on the physics of that: virus travels in the air attached to larger particles. Thus, it is stopped, at least in part, by masks and HVAC filters.

    as to muzzles: Jews pioneered that. See machloket between Lot and Avraham – about _muzzles_ that are protecting _others_ from indirect damage

    #1923613
    Theprophet
    Participant

    Dear @yserbius123
    Ok . No problem, if you wanna wear one wear a mask . But if you wear a mask I don鈥檛 need to wear one cause your safe .

    #1923658
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AriHalevi, You can also die in a head on collision wearing a seat belt, die of food poisoning, have a heart attack or stroke from worrying too much.
    You will eventually die, we all will.

    #1923664
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Common- I’m not sure which of his posts you are referring to but what you wrote isn’t such a good answer because you would definitely take precautions in thise situations and he is talking about the precautions. If someone who drives drunk was only a danger to himself it would be on him to not do it, but he puts everyone else at risk. This is more in line with what they are asking of you. To stop seeing it as only your problem, and to be preventative (even tho that is the wrong use of that word)

    #1923693
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @theprophet You’re missing my point. If you don’t wear a mask, I am notsafe. Masks are not to protect yourself, they are to protect others from you. If you are too sensitive to wear a mask, then the only responsible thing would be for you to lock yourself down and not expose yourself to others.

    I wear a mask because I care about you and don’t want to make you sick. Please wear a mask so that I don’t get sick either.

    #1923712
    akuperma
    Participant

    First, the real question is why much (if not most) of the frum community tends to be skeptical of masks. That warrants a serious answer.

    1. For the same reason many goyim are skeptical. The announced that Covid19 would be something similar to Ebola, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, or at least the (misnamed) “Spanish Flu” of 1918. In terms of key factors the distinguish a serious public health threat, from what is a normal fact of life, Covid19 was a flop. It has almost no impact on children (i.e. less threatening than the annual flu). Antibody tests proved that over 90% of the cases don’t result in serious illness. The death rate increased (in the USA) from 0.8% to 0.9% (well within a “normal” range, note that Israel is about 0.5%, and many European countries are around 1%). And by counting people who test positive but don’t get sick as being “Covid19 cases” it looks like they are fudging the statistics. But this applies to goyim as well as Yidden.

    2. Frum Jews are quite young since we have large families, and unlike real epidemics (and similar to normal diseases), Covid19 tends to kill older people. Look at the typical goy as someone almost ready for “assisted living”, and the typical frum yid as being someone in heder – they are dropping dead, and we aren’t.

    3. Most Covid19 mortality is of the generation that is older than boomers, but too young to be the “qreatest generation” (i.e. who were children during World War II). These would be roughly those born between 1930 and 1946. Among us, these were the children of the holocaust, too young to work or hide or fight, and consequently unlikely to have survived the war. Most frum Jews who “should” be dying of Covid19 based on their age, never survived childhood. Among Americans, no children died due to hostile actions during World War II (e.g. so people like Joe Biden lived to be old and needing to worry about Covid19, a Jew born in Europe during the war, probably died in childhood).

    4. Jews, like Blacks, have has long, very negative history, with public health figures. In the 20th century, in both Europe and America, public health “experts” believed in the then respectable and accepted science of Eugenics, which was the intellectual basis for such things as the holocaust, “Jim Crow” (and earlier, for slavery), immigration restrictions, and coercive family planning policies. Now the same public health community that thought that restricting the number of Jews was a necessary public health measure, are claiming that Jews davening, learning and doing mitsvos is a public health menace. We’ve heard that before.

    #1923720
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Akuperma- i know exactly when the shift happened among those i know. We took the precautions very seriously and tho our community was sparef the extent of the horror felt in new york, we knew there was danger. The day the governors were exposed breaking the rules, i was floored! And five minutes later the spell was broken. If there was really a danger in leaving the house, they never would have done it. And if tjose “in the know” don’t take it seriously then i guess I’ve been scammed. It was that simple. Just like the kid who goes otd when his rebbe is arrested for fraud.

    Now i am still careful to stop the spread andand caring of others, but i no longer can be convinced that any of this hype is real.

    #1923721
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yserbius- if you will allow me to ask a sincere question that I have asked before but wasn’t given an answer to. According to your cheshbon, that the mask is only to protect others from you, why do thousands of people who have already had covid, have antibodies, and have bern told by their doctors they cannot get it again need to wear masks as well? Can we look at someone without who is following science without condemning them as uncaring and not complying with science?

    #1923783
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @SyagLchochma Before I answer you, can you not see how your lines of reasoning are a detriment? You are a very reasonable and intelligent person as I can see from our conversations. Which is why your comments sometimes baffle me.

    There is a huge fight going on right now, between those who are worried about the health and well being of the oilom at large, and those who only care for themselves. As soon as you start questioning “Well logically I shouldn’t have to follow these rules…” you give ammo to those who don’t have Ray’us for their fellow bnei Adom and sneer and scoff with phrases like “99% survival rate”. “Just asking questions” is one of the most dangerous lines of reasoning out there and has been responsible for everything from the Reform movement to Holocaust denial.

    But sadly, these questions need answers. I can talk for a while about percentages, issues of enforcement, and rates of recurrence, but I believe there’s a much simpler answer. Let me give you a moshol:

    Why do thousands of race car drivers, that raced in professional circuits in extremely difficult situations, have to follow the speed limit?

    The truth is that you can’t set rules for only some people. Either there is compliance or there isn’t. And as soon as there is a precedent of people who don’t have to follow the rules, you end up in very murky and very dangerous territory.

    Can we look at someone without who is following science without condemning them as uncaring and not complying with science?

    No. A mask is a silly, stupid, little item of clothing. It’s not difficult to wear, it doesn’t cause any sort of damage (yes, there is some psychological problems associated with mask wearing, but they are far outweighed by the benefits), they are cheap, and easy to find. So anyone who refuses to do this one silly little thing that can probably save lives is clearly either uncaring, or brainwashed by a community that is.

    #1923795
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    So basically your answer is, ” no. I cannot answer your question. Instead i will insert my own dangerously angled lines of misinformation disguised as plain fact.

    I’m really sorry to hear that. I was just hoping for an answer. All three times i asked.

    Good shabbos

    #1923796
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    And in case you’re baffled, this:

    There is a huge fight going on right now, between those who are worried about the health and well being of the oilom at large, and those who only care for themselves

    Is you inserting your opinion, with no consistent backing, as fact. And then wondering why i don’t get it. I don’t get it because it’s a lie. Your claim that people without masks care only about themselves is a lie and since you can’t let go of it, you can’t move forward in a conversation about it.

    I believe people should wear masks because we don’t know enough. I don’t lie about the motives of those who disagree with me.

    Echo

    #1923940
    thegabe
    Participant

    I鈥檓 just saying- whatever you do, don鈥檛 make a chillul Hashem.
    I don鈥檛 care if you think it helps, it honestly doesn鈥檛 kill you to wear a mask even if it鈥檚 just a placebo, it doesn鈥檛 help
    If somebody was seriously at risk and there was a .001 chance it would help would you wear a Mask?!?
    if your glasses fog, wear a kids mask tried and true 馃榿

    #1923954
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @SyagLchochma I know I’m coming across as being motzei shem ra to a lot of Yidden in saying that their arrogance is killing people, that was not my intention. The majority of people I know who refuse to wear masks are because their city or community is very casual about COVID-19 in general and they just go with the flow. The leaders and askanim of these communities, on the other hand, I have a very hard time being dan l’kaf zechus on them. All they have to do is say “It is important to listen to what the doctors tell you about social distancing, hand washing, and face masks.” Instead, if they choose to say anything at all beyond empty platitudes of teffilah and nisyonos, it’s always “me me me me me”. “Wearing a mask makes me uncomfortable”, “I shouldn’t have to lock down if you feel in danger”. etc.

    #1923960
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    Yserbius123

    What situations/locations are you referring to?

    If masks are required, I agree, everyone should wear masks. If you are uncomfortable in a mask, go somewhere where they are not required.

    If masks are not required, then you can’t be upset at those not wearing them. If you think you are unsafe there, go somewhere else.

    I also don’t agree with your assessment of how easy it is to wear a mask. Speak for yourself, but some people have told me that it’s unbearable for them.

    #1923997
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Oish oish @daas-yochid! This is the Klal Yisroel I know and love? What happened to us?! I don’t wear a mask to stop myself from getting sick, I wear a mask because I may be sick and I don’t want you to catch it! Oy vey, are we so far gone that all we can think about is “How does a mask protect me?” What happened to “How does a mask protect you?”

    I watched a room full of people, (including children as young as ten!) daven on Yom Kippur and wear a mask the entire ten hours they were in shul! Where is our strength that some of us find it unbearable to help protect others!

    #1924010
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I have antibodies or had them back in June when I was tested and wear a mask in public. I work with gentiles and everyone has to wear a mask so even when I don’t have to wear masks I do. In some shuls I am the only one wearing a mask and I also try to keep my distance from others. But if you are at a simcha and food is being served how are you supposed to eat with the mask on? Similarly davening is uncomfortable when wearing a mask, many who wear masks during davening uncover their nose.
    Masks are not a cure they can only slow down the rate of infection. Compliance is only accomplished by peer pressure. Most shuls have signs asking people to wear masks but it is only those shuls who have a gabbi handing out masks to those who aren’t wearing them that have 100% compliance

    #1924084
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    I watched a room full of people, (including children as young as ten!) daven on Yom Kippur and wear a mask the entire ten hours they were in shul!

    And I witnessed a guy leaving davening on Yom Kippur after a half hour because he couldn’t breathe. Almost called Hatzola.

    #1924104
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma What part about my answer did you find difficult to understand? In a sentence, everyone needs to wear masks because this is a situation that if you don’t have 100% compliance, you end up with close to 0% compliance.

    #1924102
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @daas-yochid Nebbuch, I feel sorry for that man and many others who are psychologically unable to wear masks. He did the responsible thing and went outside, and away from people. But you have to understand that those are Yachidim. Most just simply haven’t gotten used to it, or haven’t yet found the “right” mask they could be comfortable with. For the overwhelming vast majority of the world, wearing masks is imperative to preventing other people from getting a virus that you may have. For those that can’t, they should do the responsible thing and stay away from people as much as possible, like davening outside or only ordering delivery.

    Tell me something, how often do you wear a mask? Why or why not?

    #1924111
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    It wasn’t psychological it was physical. And while that’s an extreme, it’s very uncomfortable for many.

    I wear a mask when and where I need to.

    Okay, I answered your question. Now will you answer mine?

    #1924114
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    None of it was difficilt to understand. You just won’t answer a question. And it is very offensive how you speak down to posters trying to converse with you, as if you are our kindergarten teacher.

    Changing our statements, ignoring our clarifications. It’s very rude. You still won’t explain where you got the validation that you are correct medically, scientifically or halachically.

    YOU decided to interpret the rules your way and then decided that every other legitimate source wrong. Don’t you understand that that’s insane? You can’t make up your own guidelines that shtim with NO professionals, and use it as law of the land.

    #1924296
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @SyagLchochma I’m not sure how I can be clearer: you asked “Why do people who are immune to COVID have to wear masks?” I answered “Because of Lo Pluhg. If we allow exceptions, the rules become murky and allow for too many dangerous loopholes and mistakes.” Also there’s the precedent. Once you start allowing people to break the rules, there’s no precedent to follow the rules anymore. Oh you have antibodies, very nice. When did you get tested? Last week? Last month? Six months ago? What were your levels? There are too many factors and too many variables to allow for this.

    My problem right now, is that you keep pushing this cheshbon of mask wearing as a personal choice. That it’s effectiveness is exaggerated and all those people like me who have issues with the anti-mask brigade are wrong.

    Where am I correct scientifically? I can literally post a megabyte worth of links of YWN would allow it. Every health organization and doctor of any legitimacy has been saying the same things I have: Wear a mask to stop yourself from spreading COVID. Halachically? I don’t think that even needs to be explained. We are talking mamesh pikuach nefesh over here.

    I am being to harsh? Oh boo hoo. Every sensible person I know is making huge sacrifices to make sure their families are living normal and safe lives. I know people who had to stay locked up like prisoners for two weeks in their family guest bedroom because they were exposed. I know Yeshivos that had to institute draconian policies to make sure no one gets sick. I know girls who went to Seminary in Eretz Yisroel where the first few weeks were little different than a prison. I know people who are scared to go outside because they are elderly or otherwise vulnerable. I know stores that are bleeding money because people are too afraid to do shopping. I know people who have gotten very very sick. And I knew people who are no longer alive.

    This is a very harsh situation and every tiny thing we can do to help, we should. So even if masks only help to stop the spread by 50% it’s well worth it. And it’s well worth any criticism against those that refuse and those others who make excuses for them.

    #1924438
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @daas-yochid A single person being uncomfortable is a small price to pay to potentially protect others from a dangerous virus.

    What question did you ask me that I didn’t answer? About what situations I was referring to? Well, obviously all those shuls, schools, and simchas that chose to go ahead with no changes due to COVID-19 and didn’t push for their members to wear masks.

    Can we acknowledge that this is a conversation about wearing masks to protect others? A mask only offers a small protection from getting a virus. But it offers a huge protection to other people if the mask wearer would Chas v’Shalom be infected. That’s why we can only have these discussions if we agree that wearing a mask is for the benefit of others.

    #1924443
    Theprophet
    Participant

    @Yserbuis123
    Are you saying that we can鈥檛 let these people with antibodies or the ones that tested negative go without masks ?? But that鈥檚 like 70% of people ??

    #1924447
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    your lack of boundaries sometimes leaves me speechless-29

    #1924453
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Theprophet Where did you get those numbers from? And testing negative is kind of meaningless if you got tested a month, or even a week ago.

    #1924518
    Withheld
    Participant

    Testing negative when you don’t have any symptoms is anyway meaningless.
    I believe that people should have to wear masks in places where you are sitting down next to somebody else for a long period of time.

    #1924535
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “I watched a room full of people, (including children as young as ten!) daven on Yom Kippur and wear a mask the entire ten hours they were in shul!”

    A room full of people when regulations in most states require reduced capacity indoors? How were you ok with that? Also, if the virus is transmitted via aerosols and not just large droplets, the masks would’ve become useless by Yishtabach as breath escaping the increasingly saturated masks became well mixed into the room air.

    #1924537
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “A single person being uncomfortable is a small price to pay to potentially protect others from a dangerous virus.”

    DaasYochid didn’t say uncomfortable. He said hatzolah almost was called on Yom Kippur. That’s a bit more than uncomfortable. Your arguments lose potency when you distort information you are given to suit your points rather than dealing with it head on.

    “Can we acknowledge that this is a conversation about wearing masks to protect others? A mask only offers a small protection from getting a virus. But it offers a huge protection to other people if the mask wearer would Chas v鈥橲halom be infected.”

    No, I don’t acknowledge this. The level of protection given by a mask for the wearer or others around the wearer is largely unknown, especially in non-clinical settings. These issues are complex, and your attempts to oversimplify them hurts trust in your larger arguments.

    #1924550
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    A room full of people when regulations in most states require reduced capacity indoors?

    Don’t be ridiculous. Obviously it was at reduced capacity in accordance with the health guidelines. I think there were 50 people when the shul held 250.

    Also, if the virus is transmitted via aerosols and not just large droplets, the masks would鈥檝e become useless by Yishtabach as breath escaping the increasingly saturated masks became well mixed into the room air.

    It’s mostly transmitted by large droplets. Aerosol transmission isn’t nearly as common. Sure it’s possible, but still a low enough chance to risk it.

    He said hatzolah almost was called on Yom Kippur.

    Read our follow up conversation. There are very very few people who have such difficulty with masks that they cannot wear them. Those people should stay away from others. For everyone else, the issue is just being uncomfortable.

    The level of protection given by a mask for the wearer or others around the wearer is largely unknown, especially in non-clinical settings.

    It’s more well known than you are choosing to acknowledge. Like I said before, there isn’t a legitimate health department in the world today who says not to wear masks. If I have a question in halacha, I ask a Rov and don’t question his reasoning. If I have a question about health, I ask a doctor. In this case, the doctors are saying “Wear a mask”.

    #1924732
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “Don鈥檛 be ridiculous. Obviously it was at reduced capacity in accordance with the health guidelines. I think there were 50 people when the shul held 250.”

    Not ridiculous at all. You said full. And in a previous thread you overstated the effectiveness of masks, implying that if everyone masks, we could socialize normally. See: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/covid-confusion#post-1907225

    “It鈥檚 mostly transmitted by large droplets. Aerosol transmission isn鈥檛 nearly as common. Sure it鈥檚 possible, but still a low enough chance to risk it.”

    You speak with more certainty here than is warranted. If transmission is mostly by large droplets, then why all the concern over asymptomatic people who are not coughing or sneezing?

    “Read our follow up conversation. There are very very few people who have such difficulty with masks that they cannot wear them. Those people should stay away from others.”

    Yeah there are very few when you systematically deny that such people exist. And now you are trying to move the goalposts. This was not your argument above. And it is not always possible for “those people” to stay away from others.

    “If I have a question in halacha, I ask a Rov and don鈥檛 question his reasoning.”

    You shouldn’t reject the psak given, but it is completely appropriate when asking a shaila to (respectfully!) question the reasoning to make sure the rav is aware of all of the facts and considerations before rendering the psak. And in some cases for the purposes of learning you can inquire about the reasoning behind the psak.

    #1924742
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @avram-in-md Wearing masks isn’t 100% effective, it’s probably more like 75%. But that’s all we need to get COVID-19 to go from an above 2 transmission rate to below 1. Keep it like that for a few months, and we can all get back to our normal lives.

    All of this fails to answer this big question originally posed: Why are you so opposed to people wearing masks?

    #1924747
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “All of this fails to answer this big question originally posed: Why are you so opposed to people wearing masks?”

    I’m more opposed to social media bullies masquerading as do-gooders, attacking large segments of the frum community.

    “But that鈥檚 all we need to get COVID-19 to go from an above 2 transmission rate to below 1. Keep it like that for a few months, and we can all get back to our normal lives.”

    Not true. It’ll just come roaring right back.

    #1924756
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    A single person being uncomfortable is a small price to pay to potentially protect others from a dangerous virus.

    He’s married, but anyhow it’s more common than you think.

    Well, obviously all those shuls, schools, and simchas that chose to go ahead with no changes due to COVID-19 and didn鈥檛 push for their members to wear masks.

    You made it sound like you were railing against individuals who don’t wear masks. So you still didn’t answer my question.

    Can we acknowledge that this is a conversation about wearing masks to protect others? A mask only offers a small protection from getting a virus. But it offers a huge protection to other people if the mask wearer would Chas v鈥橲halom be infected. That鈥檚 why we can only have these discussions if we agree that wearing a mask is for the benefit of others.

    Yes, but can we also acknowledge that just saying it’s easy to wear a mask for long periods of time doesn’t make it true for many, and that nobody is forcing anyone to attend a shul or simcha where masks aren’t worn?

    #1924760
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    There are very very few people who have such difficulty with masks that they cannot wear them. Those people should stay away from others.

    I think the proof that it’s more common than you claim is that so many people are resistant.

    Why should those who can’t wear masks stay away from other people? Maybe the more vulnerable people should stay away from others.

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