Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?
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- This topic has 224 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 5 months ago by MTAB.
October 17, 2017 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1383985
🇮🇱October 17, 2017 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1384692
They absolutely are a Kiddush Hashem as the protesters are following directives to protest issued by their Gedolei Yisroel shlita. Publicly adhering to your Rabbonim’s instructions is demonstrating Emunas Chachomim, which is the epitome of a Kiddush Hashem.
An even greater Kiddush Hashem is by those Bnei Torah who are moser nefesh themselves in adhering to their rabbonim’s admonitions (not to register for the draft) that result in the secular authorities imprisoning them for upholding their religious principles.October 17, 2017 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1384700
Joseph. You wont convince anyone that they are following directives from gdoley yisroel. Please list which gedolim said to spit and push female cops.
Which gedolim said to block traffic which is gezel zman and a danger for people who neef medical attention. I dare u to even mention one godol.October 17, 2017 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1384707mw13Participant
It’s hard for me to imagine a more counter-productive way of making your point than inconveniencing literally an entire country just to get attention. How can this possibly make people more sympathetic to the argument that the Torah protects us more than the IDF?
Joseph, yes, one of th Gedolim does indeed support this movement. But far more of the Gedolim, led by R’ Shteinman and R’ Chaim, and including R’ Nissin Karelitz, R’ Edelstein, R’ Shmuel’s older brother R’ Azreil Aurebauch, R’ Yitzchok Scheiner, and many more, have all empatheticly said *not* to join these protests.October 17, 2017 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1384744FuturePOTUSParticipant
I had the privilege of viewing some of these protests first hand (and discussing them afterwards with indignant residents) while I was in Meah Shearim this summer. I can tell you first hand it was not kiddush Hashem in any way, shape, or form. It was quite the opposite, in fact, and I was astonished at the horrifying behavior and attitudes of people who call themselves Bnei Torah.October 17, 2017 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1384768The little I knowParticipant
No. Final. Period.October 17, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1384773adocsParticipant
While I completely understand the reasons for not joining the army and the importance of bnei torah learning, can you (or anyone) please explain the reason(s) the gedolim who are instructing these boys, tell them not to even register?October 17, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1384776adocsParticipant
Why aren’t the roshei hayeshivos who (supposedley) instruct them to protest, out there with them?October 17, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1384779
mw13: Those who follow the Gedolim supporting this approach should engage in it. Those who follow the Gedolim who take the other approach, should not engage in it.
T2: False strawmen.October 17, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1384781
Who do you hold like when there’s a machlokes gedolim ? Whoever you want?!?!?!?October 17, 2017 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1384782TASParticipant
It seems to me that everyone is being very judgmental about the protests. They are being called animals and other names by many posters. If they are following Rav Auerbach’s instructions, people have no right to insult them. Does anyone <b>really know<b> that they are not listening to Dass Torah or are they just assuming that they are not? If they are following Dass Torah, please stop insulting them. It doesn’t matter if your Dass Torah says the opposite. They are doing what they know is right.October 17, 2017 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1384811aguywithdeterminationParticipant
Yeah, but doing what they think is right, is causing massive anti-Semitism so I think being concerned is appropriateOctober 17, 2017 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1384823
Freddy, its mo a machlokos gedolim. R aurbach is pretty much a loner in his derech. Many gedolim are staying away from him for good reason.October 17, 2017 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1384831
Joseph – those are only false strawmen if:
a. they are false facts and
b. you don’t expect that the gedolim who told them to protest are not capable of being ro’eh es hanolad.
But those stories are true: they attacked, pushed, and spit on women. They blocked traffic causing untold gezel zman, not to mention Stam gezeilah.
And gedolim are Chachomim. Aizehu Chochom? HaRo’eh es haNolad.
I leave it to the smart people in this coffee room to complete the syllogism and draw the correct conclusion.October 17, 2017 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1384843
Tex, complete baloney. The police woman attacked the innocent protester who was carrying out his democratic right to protest and engage in civil disobedience, so he merely defended himself from her attack. He had absolutely no obligation to allow her to beat him while he should just politely wait for her to finish attacking him.October 17, 2017 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1384841
Thank you tex for clarifying the obvious to josephOctober 17, 2017 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1384839
The only straw(hat)man here is joseph with his twisted and convoluted homemade toras lukshinOctober 17, 2017 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1384838CTRebbeParticipant
I believe that Rav Shmuel probably did tell bachurim to not register for the draft, but do we have any public statement from him or reliable testimony that he supports the (Chilul Shem Shomayim) protests?October 17, 2017 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1384849
Gedolei yisroel have personally been present in a number of the protests.October 17, 2017 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1384855
Takes 2 to tango r shmuel Auerbach is a gadol and he disagrees with other gedolim what about that is not a machlokes gedolim???????October 18, 2017 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1384866CTRebbeParticipant
Joseph- looks like you are trolling. Can anyone name a single gadol or even minor talmid chochom who has been present at one of these street blocking protests or who have publicly sanctioned them?October 18, 2017 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1384862GadolhadorahParticipant
Joseph….your mindless effort to justify this disgusting behavior and disruption in the lives of hundreds of thousands of yidden who struggle every day to get back and forth to work and davening, shuttle the kids to and from school etc. demonstrates a scary detachment from reality. Do you believe Rabbi Aurbach really instructed them to create such chaos in the lives of the klal?? Its fine to demonstrate but the minute you obstruct the rights of others, you open yourself to being run over, literally and figuratively. Assuming Rabbi Aurbach has “control” over these demonstrations, he should reconsider his instructions before we wake up one morning and read about the deaths or serious injuries among these thugs. While other rabbonim have expressed strong opposition to the mandatory draft registration, NONE has promoted this kind of disruption.October 18, 2017 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1384868
Joseph – the bochur pushed the female soldier from behind her; hardly a defensive move. Democratic right to protest within the bounds of societal decency. There are rules for when, where, and how to protest. Further, you obviously didn’t watch the videos of these protests. If you are too religious to watch those videos, then what, pray tell, are you doing on the internet in a chat room? These bochurim are walking, screaming, and fighting chilulei Hashem. And, btw you really should learn how to spell bologna if you are going to try to use it as a way to make your flawed arguments.October 18, 2017 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1384874
Yachid vrabim halacha krabim. R aurbach is a yachid Period. End of story. He has practically zero backing and for good reason.October 18, 2017 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1384896
She was clearly attacking a number of peaceful protesters and he was acting in self-defense on his own behalf and on the behalf of other protesters.
In a democracy the right to protest, including engaging in civil disobedience, is a recognized democratic right.October 18, 2017 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1384919aguywithdeterminationParticipant
If they live in A country that defends them against next-door terrorists then why aren’t they contributing too? That just sounds so ungrateful. IT’S WAR! NORMAL RULES DON’T APPLY so what possible argument can they possibly have??? They should defend their country along with everyone else
Please correct me if I’m getting things wrong, but this is how I, and 99% of the world thinkOctober 18, 2017 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1384920bk613Participant
You do not have a civil right to obstruct traffic just because you are upset about something. in fact many of the people arrested at these protests/riots are charged with unlawful assembly. Maybe CTLAWYER can elaborate on this…October 18, 2017 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1384921bk613Participant
“She was clearly attacking a number of peaceful protesters and he was acting in self-defense on his own behalf and on the behalf of other protesters.”
She was not “attacking” anyone and they were not “peaceful.” She was trying to make the animals move out of the street and on to the sidewalk were I’m sure they would be allowed to protest as much as they wanted.
@Joseph, just curious, do you have a problem with the way the police here in the U.S. force groups like BLM out of streets and highways?October 18, 2017 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1384929ChortkovParticipant
We’ve been through all this before.October 18, 2017 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1384922
Joseph- In an anarchy, the recognized right to civil disobedience comes with no legal consequences. In a democracy, as in any civilized society, civil disobedience comes with legal consequences such as arrests and forced removals. Your “logic” regarding civil disobedience is hilariously flawed. Your conflation of civil disobedience with freedom of expression belies a grossly inadequate background in basic legal principles and civics. Civil disobedience is illegal behavior. Period. It may not be felonious conduct, but it can and does easily land people in jail all the time. Even just to protest requires a permit. Without a permit, there is no right or freedom of expression. In the U.S., the governmental entity with the police power over the locale at which one wishes to demonstrate must provide permits, but they may enact rules regarding where, when, and how the demonstration may take place. It is safe to assume the same sort of system is in effect in Eretz Yisrael. Joseph, your enthusiastic willingness to share your abysmal ignorance with all of us in the coffee room inspires me to advise you of the dictum: bimuflah mimcha al tidrosh.October 18, 2017 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1384939
You started with a question of a religious nature and then immediately switched to a secular issue.
There is no connection between kiddush hashem and democracy. Democracies are not built on religious values just the opposite. In fact you constantly rage against the democratic principles of both Israel and the US.
So the reality is, the peleg people are using a zionistic/secular “right” to protest to attempt to promote a religious value. I think we can all see the irony and hypocrisy.
In addition. From the creation of our religion till now, it was never the desire of gedoli yisroel who were having a machlokes that the masses get involved. Because the masses always violate Halacha when they get involved. Whether it’s lashon hara or more serious breaches. And they can never fathom the intent of a gadol. Our history is replete with examples of this, the masses distorting and creating large rifts with the “right intentions ” of upholding their “rebbes honor”. One of my rebbeim in yeshiva used to say on this “the road to Gehennim is paved with all these good intentions ”
Which is why truly frum people always wait for specific instructions from the gedolim before joining protests etc.October 18, 2017 7:47 am at 7:47 am #1384961☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It is safe to assume the same sort of system is in effect in Eretz Yisrael.
No, it isn’t.October 18, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1384967
mentsch1, Gedolei Yisroel have called upon the frum masses in Eretz Yisroel to come out in protest ever since the beginning days of the Zionist State.October 18, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1384966zahavasdadParticipant
There is no written constitution in Israel like there is in the US and there is no right to protest. So any comparision between the Peleg and BLM is irrelevent. Now if Peleg protested in Times Square that would be totally differentOctober 18, 2017 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1384969PhilParticipant
Yet another great example of Jospeh’s mindless trolling. Harav Shteinman, Shlita and Harav Kanievsky, Shlita, the undisputed Gedolim of the Yeshiva world, have clearly stated that this is not the proper response to the Draft issues. Their psak is that young men are supposed to register and that such protests are not to be held.
The “authority” by which these mobs operate is a da’as yochid and they are acting this way because they are lazy and would rather have “fun” rioting than learn. It’s shameful that they claim to abhor violence and war against Arabs but have no problem raising their hands against fellow Jews.
Case in point, the shameful incident where a Peleg avreich walked into Harav Shteinman’s early morning Blatt shiur several years ago and physically assaulted him. How typical of this Erev Rav!October 18, 2017 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1384982binyomintParticipant
I dont think unless you live in Eretz Yisroel today you can really have an opinion on this as its very complex.
R’Auerbach has a lot of backing (and its growing), in fact I doubt he is a daas yachid anymore.
Do you hear any Gedolei Yisroel over the last year or so telling bochrim not to protest? if so post the link here please.
I live here and I dont hear them.
Phil to you, most and even myself Harav Shteinman, Shlita is the Gadol Hador but you cannot say he is undisputed, following for R’ Auerbach is large and growing rapidly.
As a citizen of Eretz Yisroel who does not protest, I would say what these Bochrim are doing is a Kiddush Hashem.October 18, 2017 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1384989theemesssParticipant
Maybe someone can post a list of Yeshivos that are affiliated with Peleg so that those that oppose this type of behavior can direct their tzakah money elsewhere.October 18, 2017 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1384990TASParticipant
Take2, I can’t believe that you are degrading Rav Auerbach! He is a gadol. Period. The halacha of Yachid vrabim halacha krabim doesn’t Hass Vashalom mean that the Yachid is a nobody. Rather it means in HALACHA, we go like the rabim. However, the Yichid’s students can go like the Yichid. And anyhow, this is a case of haskafah, so your logic is flawed.October 18, 2017 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1385063takahmamashParticipant
Sorry, joseph, there is no “right” to civil disobedience. These people are committing a crime by blocking streets and endangering lives.October 18, 2017 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1385066ChortkovParticipant
There are clearly two separate issues here.
1) What to do about the draft: Should you register and get a ‘dichui’, or should you not register at all.
2) Is there something wrong with protesting in the streets.
Those of you who think it is a Chillul Hashem – do you think it is a Chillul Hashem because you disagree with R’ Shmuel Aurebach’s position, or do you think that the idea of protesting (causing traffic, disrupting medical services, causing people to miss flights) is wrong? If the answer is the latter, you would be upset regardless what they are protesting about. If the answer is the former, then you don’t have anything against the medium of protesting, but you don’t think there is anything to protest about.October 18, 2017 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1385079
Good point. Do those who profess to oppose the protest also speak up against civil disobedience protests organized by Israeli settlers protesting Israeli government policy, as well as speak up against liberal protesters in the US and as well, again, speak up against Avi Weiss and his Open gang when he and they get themselves arrested (in taleisim) protesting, and similar protests where protesters are arrested?October 18, 2017 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1385131
I was at many a protest in Yerushalyim in the 90’s.
All were attended by gedolim. All were announced in advance and thus did not grossly inconvenience people. All had tehillim and tefilla on the agenda.
As opposed to these. None attended by gedolim. Inconvenience is the objective. Instead of tefilla , we have fists and kicks.
I do not believe for one second the gedolim (including Rav Auerbach, who by the way, I used as a posk in EY, though I dont claim to know him well other then shaylos we asked to him since we lived near by) condone these violations of Halacha. Yom kippur is not m’chaper for ben adom l’chavero and there are definite damages in these protests.
Personally I find it disturbing that you can believe that gedolim are happy with this.October 18, 2017 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1385139ayidParticipant
make no mistake: these thugs are protesting against the so called Rav Shiteman’s people (for their aggression against Pelg, no question that there is!) so why is the whole country fault. the should go block rav shtimans people from leaving their house work, block Gafni and friends from getting to the Kenseth, and leave the old lady on the bus to get home, or to her doctors appointment. or fight in Ponevintzh with trowing shtenders and labens.October 18, 2017 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1385142zahavasdadParticipant
There was a letter on the Home page about someone who missed a flight because of the protests.
What is the Halacha if someone protests something and causes others financial Harm who had nothing to do with the issue.
Is a person Chayiv for the extra costs involved in chaging a plane ticket because you missed a flight.. Who is Chayiv for lost wages because you were late because of the protestsOctober 18, 2017 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1385150
Were you folks against the Gush Katif settlers civil disobedience when Israeli soldiers were forced to arrest those thugs violently resisting the police and army? Or were you folks supporting *that* civil disobedience but are opposed to Bnei Torah protesting in defense of not being subjected to a forcible draft into the zionist army, as per Israeli law?October 18, 2017 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1385282
so your argument is, I know they are violating Halacha against the wishes of the gedolim but don’t protest because we didn’t start a thread about gush katif?
Frankly, The MO gush Katif people behaved better. There were plenty of articles about mutual support and crying because the soldiers knew they were doing something they shouldn’t, and I don’t believe there was any physical abuse from the settlersOctober 18, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1385357
That’s hogwash. Nothing of that sort was said, implied or is factual.
Are you opposed to folks like Meir Kahane and his thugs in Kach and the JDL? Mr. Kahane was arrested numerous times both in the US and Israel for his actions, and indeed was sentenced to imprisonment in both countries for many months each time, in both countries. So were many of his gangsters in the JDL and Kach. He broke the car window of the British Foreign Minister (in the US) and engaged in various other violent activities.
Are you willing to right now raise your voce right here in the CR and state you condemn them for their thuggery?October 18, 2017 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1385395mw13Participant
According to Rabbi Menachem Carmel, who spoke to Kol Berama Radio on Wednesday morning, “For as long as they continue to arrest our boys and harm our way of life, for all we wish to do is to sit and learn, then we will do whatever we can to have them released. We will get out and express out outrage, as is permitted in a democratic country”.
Anyone raising a hand to an officer or throwing something, will not receive legal assistance if required. This is clear to all as the rabbonim do not sanction violence, but are calling for passive resistance including the closing of roads.
So anybody “raising a hand or throwing anything” isn’t even following the directives of the Peleg political echelons who supposedly speak in the name of R’ Shmuel.October 18, 2017 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1385409seeker123Participant
Not related to the main topic,someone here insulted Joseph for writing “baloney.” Joseph was correct, since the standard spelling of that word is not the same as the one when referring to a kind of deli.
link removedOctober 18, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1385658
seeker123: Thank you. (I generally ignore those kind of immaterial attacks. Especially, as I knew, he was making a greater dolt of himself with that error that highlighted his overall uncouthness.)
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