Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?

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  • #1383985

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    🇮🇱

    #1384692

    Joseph
    Participant

    They absolutely are a Kiddush Hashem as the protesters are following directives to protest issued by their Gedolei Yisroel shlita. Publicly adhering to your Rabbonim’s instructions is demonstrating Emunas Chachomim, which is the epitome of a Kiddush Hashem.

    An even greater Kiddush Hashem is by those Bnei Torah who are moser nefesh themselves in adhering to their rabbonim’s admonitions (not to register for the draft) that result in the secular authorities imprisoning them for upholding their religious principles.

    #1384700

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph. You wont convince anyone that they are following directives from gdoley yisroel. Please list which gedolim said to spit and push female cops.
    Which gedolim said to block traffic which is gezel zman and a danger for people who neef medical attention. I dare u to even mention one godol.

    #1384707

    mw13
    Participant

    It’s hard for me to imagine a more counter-productive way of making your point than inconveniencing literally an entire country just to get attention. How can this possibly make people more sympathetic to the argument that the Torah protects us more than the IDF?

    Joseph, yes, one of th Gedolim does indeed support this movement. But far more of the Gedolim, led by R’ Shteinman and R’ Chaim, and including R’ Nissin Karelitz, R’ Edelstein, R’ Shmuel’s older brother R’ Azreil Aurebauch, R’ Yitzchok Scheiner, and many more, have all empatheticly said *not* to join these protests.

    #1384744

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    I had the privilege of viewing some of these protests first hand (and discussing them afterwards with indignant residents) while I was in Meah Shearim this summer. I can tell you first hand it was not kiddush Hashem in any way, shape, or form. It was quite the opposite, in fact, and I was astonished at the horrifying behavior and attitudes of people who call themselves Bnei Torah.

    #1384768

    The little I know
    Participant

    No. Final. Period.

    #1384773

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph-

    While I completely understand the reasons for not joining the army and the importance of bnei torah learning, can you (or anyone) please explain the reason(s) the gedolim who are instructing these boys, tell them not to even register?

    #1384776

    adocs
    Participant

    Also-

    Why aren’t the roshei hayeshivos who (supposedley) instruct them to protest, out there with them?

    #1384779

    Joseph
    Participant

    mw13: Those who follow the Gedolim supporting this approach should engage in it. Those who follow the Gedolim who take the other approach, should not engage in it.

    T2: False strawmen.

    #1384781

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Who do you hold like when there’s a machlokes gedolim ? Whoever you want?!?!?!?

    #1384782

    TAS
    Participant

    It seems to me that everyone is being very judgmental about the protests. They are being called animals and other names by many posters. If they are following Rav Auerbach’s instructions, people have no right to insult them. Does anyone <b>really know<b> that they are not listening to Dass Torah or are they just assuming that they are not? If they are following Dass Torah, please stop insulting them. It doesn’t matter if your Dass Torah says the opposite. They are doing what they know is right.

    #1384811

    Yeah, but doing what they think is right, is causing massive anti-Semitism so I think being concerned is appropriate

    #1384823

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Freddy, its mo a machlokos gedolim. R aurbach is pretty much a loner in his derech. Many gedolim are staying away from him for good reason.

    #1384831

    Tex
    Participant

    Joseph – those are only false strawmen if:
    a. they are false facts and
    b. you don’t expect that the gedolim who told them to protest are not capable of being ro’eh es hanolad.
    But those stories are true: they attacked, pushed, and spit on women. They blocked traffic causing untold gezel zman, not to mention Stam gezeilah.
    And gedolim are Chachomim. Aizehu Chochom? HaRo’eh es haNolad.
    I leave it to the smart people in this coffee room to complete the syllogism and draw the correct conclusion.

    #1384843

    Joseph
    Participant

    Tex, complete baloney. The police woman attacked the innocent protester who was carrying out his democratic right to protest and engage in civil disobedience, so he merely defended himself from her attack. He had absolutely no obligation to allow her to beat him while he should just politely wait for her to finish attacking him.

    #1384841

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Thank you tex for clarifying the obvious to joseph

    #1384839

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The only straw(hat)man here is joseph with his twisted and convoluted homemade toras lukshin

    #1384838

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I believe that Rav Shmuel probably did tell bachurim to not register for the draft, but do we have any public statement from him or reliable testimony that he supports the (Chilul Shem Shomayim) protests?

    #1384849

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gedolei yisroel have personally been present in a number of the protests.

    #1384855

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Takes 2 to tango r shmuel Auerbach is a gadol and he disagrees with other gedolim what about that is not a machlokes gedolim???????

    #1384866

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Joseph- looks like you are trolling. Can anyone name a single gadol or even minor talmid chochom who has been present at one of these street blocking protests or who have publicly sanctioned them?

    #1384862

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Joseph….your mindless effort to justify this disgusting behavior and disruption in the lives of hundreds of thousands of yidden who struggle every day to get back and forth to work and davening, shuttle the kids to and from school etc. demonstrates a scary detachment from reality. Do you believe Rabbi Aurbach really instructed them to create such chaos in the lives of the klal?? Its fine to demonstrate but the minute you obstruct the rights of others, you open yourself to being run over, literally and figuratively. Assuming Rabbi Aurbach has “control” over these demonstrations, he should reconsider his instructions before we wake up one morning and read about the deaths or serious injuries among these thugs. While other rabbonim have expressed strong opposition to the mandatory draft registration, NONE has promoted this kind of disruption.

    #1384868

    Tex
    Participant

    Joseph – the bochur pushed the female soldier from behind her; hardly a defensive move. Democratic right to protest within the bounds of societal decency. There are rules for when, where, and how to protest. Further, you obviously didn’t watch the videos of these protests. If you are too religious to watch those videos, then what, pray tell, are you doing on the internet in a chat room? These bochurim are walking, screaming, and fighting chilulei Hashem. And, btw you really should learn how to spell bologna if you are going to try to use it as a way to make your flawed arguments.

    #1384874

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Yachid vrabim halacha krabim. R aurbach is a yachid Period. End of story. He has practically zero backing and for good reason.

    #1384896

    Joseph
    Participant

    She was clearly attacking a number of peaceful protesters and he was acting in self-defense on his own behalf and on the behalf of other protesters.

    In a democracy the right to protest, including engaging in civil disobedience, is a recognized democratic right.

    #1384919

    If they live in A country that defends them against next-door terrorists then why aren’t they contributing too? That just sounds so ungrateful. IT’S WAR! NORMAL RULES DON’T APPLY so what possible argument can they possibly have??? They should defend their country along with everyone else

    Please correct me if I’m getting things wrong, but this is how I, and 99% of the world think

    #1384920

    bk613
    Participant

    You do not have a civil right to obstruct traffic just because you are upset about something. in fact many of the people arrested at these protests/riots are charged with unlawful assembly. Maybe CTLAWYER can elaborate on this…

    #1384921

    bk613
    Participant

    “She was clearly attacking a number of peaceful protesters and he was acting in self-defense on his own behalf and on the behalf of other protesters.”
    She was not “attacking” anyone and they were not “peaceful.” She was trying to make the animals move out of the street and on to the sidewalk were I’m sure they would be allowed to protest as much as they wanted.
    @joseph, just curious, do you have a problem with the way the police here in the U.S. force groups like BLM out of streets and highways?

    #1384929

    Chortkov
    Participant
    #1384922

    Tex
    Participant

    Joseph- In an anarchy, the recognized right to civil disobedience comes with no legal consequences. In a democracy, as in any civilized society, civil disobedience comes with legal consequences such as arrests and forced removals. Your “logic” regarding civil disobedience is hilariously flawed. Your conflation of civil disobedience with freedom of expression belies a grossly inadequate background in basic legal principles and civics. Civil disobedience is illegal behavior. Period. It may not be felonious conduct, but it can and does easily land people in jail all the time. Even just to protest requires a permit. Without a permit, there is no right or freedom of expression. In the U.S., the governmental entity with the police power over the locale at which one wishes to demonstrate must provide permits, but they may enact rules regarding where, when, and how the demonstration may take place. It is safe to assume the same sort of system is in effect in Eretz Yisrael. Joseph, your enthusiastic willingness to share your abysmal ignorance with all of us in the coffee room inspires me to advise you of the dictum: bimuflah mimcha al tidrosh.

    #1384939

    mentsch1
    Participant

    You started with a question of a religious nature and then immediately switched to a secular issue.
    There is no connection between kiddush hashem and democracy. Democracies are not built on religious values just the opposite. In fact you constantly rage against the democratic principles of both Israel and the US.
    So the reality is, the peleg people are using a zionistic/secular “right” to protest to attempt to promote a religious value. I think we can all see the irony and hypocrisy.

    In addition. From the creation of our religion till now, it was never the desire of gedoli yisroel who were having a machlokes that the masses get involved. Because the masses always violate Halacha when they get involved. Whether it’s lashon hara or more serious breaches. And they can never fathom the intent of a gadol. Our history is replete with examples of this, the masses distorting and creating large rifts with the “right intentions ” of upholding their “rebbes honor”. One of my rebbeim in yeshiva used to say on this “the road to Gehennim is paved with all these good intentions ”
    Which is why truly frum people always wait for specific instructions from the gedolim before joining protests etc.

    #1384961

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is safe to assume the same sort of system is in effect in Eretz Yisrael.

    No, it isn’t.

    #1384967

    Joseph
    Participant

    mentsch1, Gedolei Yisroel have called upon the frum masses in Eretz Yisroel to come out in protest ever since the beginning days of the Zionist State.

    #1384966

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is no written constitution in Israel like there is in the US and there is no right to protest. So any comparision between the Peleg and BLM is irrelevent. Now if Peleg protested in Times Square that would be totally different

    #1384969

    Phil
    Participant

    Yet another great example of Jospeh’s mindless trolling. Harav Shteinman, Shlita and Harav Kanievsky, Shlita, the undisputed Gedolim of the Yeshiva world, have clearly stated that this is not the proper response to the Draft issues. Their psak is that young men are supposed to register and that such protests are not to be held.

    The “authority” by which these mobs operate is a da’as yochid and they are acting this way because they are lazy and would rather have “fun” rioting than learn. It’s shameful that they claim to abhor violence and war against Arabs but have no problem raising their hands against fellow Jews.

    Case in point, the shameful incident where a Peleg avreich walked into Harav Shteinman’s early morning Blatt shiur several years ago and physically assaulted him. How typical of this Erev Rav!

    #1384982

    binyomint
    Participant

    I dont think unless you live in Eretz Yisroel today you can really have an opinion on this as its very complex.
    R’Auerbach has a lot of backing (and its growing), in fact I doubt he is a daas yachid anymore.
    Do you hear any Gedolei Yisroel over the last year or so telling bochrim not to protest? if so post the link here please.
    I live here and I dont hear them.
    Phil to you, most and even myself Harav Shteinman, Shlita is the Gadol Hador but you cannot say he is undisputed, following for R’ Auerbach is large and growing rapidly.
    As a citizen of Eretz Yisroel who does not protest, I would say what these Bochrim are doing is a Kiddush Hashem.

    #1384989

    theemesss
    Participant

    Maybe someone can post a list of Yeshivos that are affiliated with Peleg so that those that oppose this type of behavior can direct their tzakah money elsewhere.

    #1384990

    TAS
    Participant

    Take2, I can’t believe that you are degrading Rav Auerbach! He is a gadol. Period. The halacha of Yachid vrabim halacha krabim doesn’t Hass Vashalom mean that the Yachid is a nobody. Rather it means in HALACHA, we go like the rabim. However, the Yichid’s students can go like the Yichid. And anyhow, this is a case of haskafah, so your logic is flawed.

    #1385063

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Sorry, joseph, there is no “right” to civil disobedience. These people are committing a crime by blocking streets and endangering lives.

    #1385066

    Chortkov
    Participant

    There are clearly two separate issues here.

    1) What to do about the draft: Should you register and get a ‘dichui’, or should you not register at all.
    2) Is there something wrong with protesting in the streets.

    Those of you who think it is a Chillul Hashem – do you think it is a Chillul Hashem because you disagree with R’ Shmuel Aurebach’s position, or do you think that the idea of protesting (causing traffic, disrupting medical services, causing people to miss flights) is wrong? If the answer is the latter, you would be upset regardless what they are protesting about. If the answer is the former, then you don’t have anything against the medium of protesting, but you don’t think there is anything to protest about.

    #1385079

    Joseph
    Participant

    Good point. Do those who profess to oppose the protest also speak up against civil disobedience protests organized by Israeli settlers protesting Israeli government policy, as well as speak up against liberal protesters in the US and as well, again, speak up against Avi Weiss and his Open gang when he and they get themselves arrested (in taleisim) protesting, and similar protests where protesters are arrested?

    #1385131

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Joseph
    I was at many a protest in Yerushalyim in the 90’s.
    All were attended by gedolim. All were announced in advance and thus did not grossly inconvenience people. All had tehillim and tefilla on the agenda.
    As opposed to these. None attended by gedolim. Inconvenience is the objective. Instead of tefilla , we have fists and kicks.
    I do not believe for one second the gedolim (including Rav Auerbach, who by the way, I used as a posk in EY, though I dont claim to know him well other then shaylos we asked to him since we lived near by) condone these violations of Halacha. Yom kippur is not m’chaper for ben adom l’chavero and there are definite damages in these protests.
    Personally I find it disturbing that you can believe that gedolim are happy with this.

    #1385139

    ayid
    Participant

    make no mistake: these thugs are protesting against the so called Rav Shiteman’s people (for their aggression against Pelg, no question that there is!) so why is the whole country fault. the should go block rav shtimans people from leaving their house work, block Gafni and friends from getting to the Kenseth, and leave the old lady on the bus to get home, or to her doctors appointment. or fight in Ponevintzh with trowing shtenders and labens.

    #1385142

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was a letter on the Home page about someone who missed a flight because of the protests.

    What is the Halacha if someone protests something and causes others financial Harm who had nothing to do with the issue.

    Is a person Chayiv for the extra costs involved in chaging a plane ticket because you missed a flight.. Who is Chayiv for lost wages because you were late because of the protests

    #1385150

    Joseph
    Participant

    Were you folks against the Gush Katif settlers civil disobedience when Israeli soldiers were forced to arrest those thugs violently resisting the police and army? Or were you folks supporting *that* civil disobedience but are opposed to Bnei Torah protesting in defense of not being subjected to a forcible draft into the zionist army, as per Israeli law?

    #1385282

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Joseph
    Come on
    so your argument is, I know they are violating Halacha against the wishes of the gedolim but don’t protest because we didn’t start a thread about gush katif?
    Frankly, The MO gush Katif people behaved better. There were plenty of articles about mutual support and crying because the soldiers knew they were doing something they shouldn’t, and I don’t believe there was any physical abuse from the settlers

    #1385357

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s hogwash. Nothing of that sort was said, implied or is factual.

    Are you opposed to folks like Meir Kahane and his thugs in Kach and the JDL? Mr. Kahane was arrested numerous times both in the US and Israel for his actions, and indeed was sentenced to imprisonment in both countries for many months each time, in both countries. So were many of his gangsters in the JDL and Kach. He broke the car window of the British Foreign Minister (in the US) and engaged in various other violent activities.

    Are you willing to right now raise your voce right here in the CR and state you condemn them for their thuggery?

    #1385395

    mw13
    Participant

    According to Rabbi Menachem Carmel, who spoke to Kol Berama Radio on Wednesday morning, “For as long as they continue to arrest our boys and harm our way of life, for all we wish to do is to sit and learn, then we will do whatever we can to have them released. We will get out and express out outrage, as is permitted in a democratic country”.

    Anyone raising a hand to an officer or throwing something, will not receive legal assistance if required. This is clear to all as the rabbonim do not sanction violence, but are calling for passive resistance including the closing of roads.

    Peleg Protests to Continue on Wednesday

    So anybody “raising a hand or throwing anything” isn’t even following the directives of the Peleg political echelons who supposedly speak in the name of R’ Shmuel.

    #1385409

    seeker123
    Participant

    Not related to the main topic,someone here insulted Joseph for writing “baloney.” Joseph was correct, since the standard spelling of that word is not the same as the one when referring to a kind of deli.

    link removed

    #1385658

    Joseph
    Participant

    seeker123: Thank you. (I generally ignore those kind of immaterial attacks. Especially, as I knew, he was making a greater dolt of himself with that error that highlighted his overall uncouthness.)

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