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  • #1967907
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    After the story with the missonary who infiltrated two communities in Jerusalem, we need to ask look inward and ask ourselves should we be a little suspect of outsiders coming into our community?

    #1967967
    hml
    Participant

    Absolutely, but it’s a worldwide Jewish problem, that we open our hearts & homes to people we believe are Kosher Jews and they aren’t. Look at the growing numbers of Russians who immigrate here, purporting to be Halachic Jews but who aren’t.

    When our first child was getting married in NY (we were from UK) we went to the Beis Din with my Ketubah. The Rav was shocked, waved my husband away & told him “no need.” Meanwhile, even though we had lived there for 12 years we had no family there, no one to vouch for us Jewishly. We swore then that we would only make shidduchim with people we knew or if the shadchan knew the family personally. And that’s exactly what we did.

    I can’t begin to imagine the Halachic implications of what went on here, and the trauma to everyone they came in contact with. Deport them & spread all their details around the world. If the JA could put us through the ringer when we made Aliyah, how did these con artists slip through the net?

    #1967995
    Mindful
    Participant

    The missionary had no success in converting anyone. Frum people are not susceptible to this. It is the not religious people that are at risk.
    The great damage done by not welcoming a Jew cannot be compared to the damage which which can be caused by being mistakenly welcoming to a non jew.
    These people put on the right clothes and people accepted them.. There are so many Jews that have been pushed away by the frum community. That is a true tragedy.

    #1968008
    meir G
    Participant

    lets wait for some more facts , there are big pieces missing in the story . we are not too welcoming , a commenter mentions the russians.. when was the last time the avg frum family had a russian for a shabbos … its been years . one of the reasons the shabbos project changed its tune to focus on the ” frum family feeling shabbos” is because most non religious people have no interest in coming to flatbush even if invited

    #1968013
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @mindful, “The missionary had no success in converting anyone. Frum people are not susceptible to this” are you naive or just plain stupid? you had a goy gumer who in fact is a galach masquerading as a sofer stam and a kohen and being podeh haben, his wife a 100% non jew is buried in a Jewish cemetary, there are very serious breaches of halacach becuase this.

    Could you please tone down the way you address people you disagree with? Thanks in advance-29

    #1968031
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I agree with commonsaychel,

    How many kiddushin aren’t kosher?
    How many pidyonim aren’t kosher?
    How many tefillin and sifrei Torah aren’t kosher?

    It’s crazy!

    #1968035
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Unquestionably no

    One of the defining characteristics of our people is Rachamanim and Gomlei Chasadim. When new frum practicing people move to your neighborhood it is wholly appropriate to welcome them, and goes against everything Jewsih to shun them since “wed don’t know you”

    This story is very very rare, (and frankly missing many details) .

    the “serious” breaches of halacha are minor and easily remedied . Big deal people who used him for pidyon haben should do another one, How many mezuzas did this guty write alread replace them (and at any rate unlike welcoming ot a community when purchasing STAM it IS appropriate to look into the sofer). Your worried about his dead wife?
    Big deal, worry far more about pushing away people , that is a far greater problem.

    It isnt even close

    #1968062
    Meno
    Participant

    How many kiddushin aren’t kosher?

    I would guess zero.

    #1968082
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “I would guess zero.“

    Why?

    If he was an עד it’s not a good קדושין

    #1968105
    Mindful
    Participant

    This is a tragedy of our scosiety. He is worried for a message being not kosher, more than pushing away a Jew!

    All these breaches of holocho can be fixed now. These are minor issues compared to the fact that the cast majority of Jews in the world are completely separated from Judaism!
    And this attitude that protecting yourself is more important than reaching out to a fellow Jew is the cause of it.

    This story is very strange and it is extremely unlikely anything like this has ever happened before or cab happen again. It takes insane talent and intellectual to be able to pull of such a scam.

    Why from this story you take a Mussar haskell to mistrust everyone. But from the everyday situation on the streets you learn nothing.

    Because you are worried about a not kosher mezzanine, not Hashems children who will not even have Jewish offspring, forget hang a mezuza.

    #1968112
    ujm
    Participant

    The larger problem is certain kiruv groups being “mekarev” goyim who joined the Reform or Conservative movements and pose as Jews after undergoing a Reform or Conservative conversion or identifying as “Jewish” based on patrilineal descent or being an offspring (child, grandchild, great-grandchild, etc.) of a maternal R/C convert or of patrilineal descent somewhere along their ancestral line.

    #1968206

    I wonder how these people existing in the community? Did the guy daven with others, discussed casually a sugya in Gemora? Was anone suspicious when he quoted Chumash too well with King James translations and without Rashi? Either he became a talmid hoham as part of his mission, or his lack of Jewish education was not at all noticeable to people around him … Same question for the kids unless they were born in the community. Did Bais Yaakov have less standards than usual?

    #1968221
    Participant
    Participant

    how’d the kid mess up? pretty bad [good] mistake.

    #1968247
    user176
    Participant

    Just need to follow Halacha. People coming to a new community need to be verified. Especially a kohen. The rabbis of every community undoubtedly know this Halacha.

    #1968245
    The little I know
    Participant

    Maybe, just maybe the problem is us.

    When we encounter someone we do not know, how do we assess them? How do we know they’re Yidden, how do we know they are Shomrei Mitzvos, etc.? I postulate that the average means of making such assessments is based on the externals. The manner of dress, and other outward signs. And there are many times that such assessments are accurate. But sometimes the are not. And the errors go in both directions.

    We can see a manner of dress that doesn’t fit our current expected norms (white shirt, suit long or short, hat of whatever kind, etc.), and when these don’t meet our expectations, we reach conclusions that the individual is not frum, or just not one of ours. When it does, we then assume, as seems to have happened in this case, that the person is a newcomer from another frum community.

    The issue is that we base our conclusions on an erroneous base – chitzoniyus. But that has been the trajectory of our community, where more attention goes to these aspects, and far less to the ones that matter most. Food for thought.

    #1968244
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: Not every born Jew can learn gemorah.

    #1968360
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, here is your proof that you can know how to learn and be a goy gumer even a missonary.
    PS he was very vigilant about using a mask and keeping social distance beause R Meir Twersky said so

    #1968389
    Participant
    Participant

    @tlik if I’d see a bareheaded ponytailed someone clad in t-shirt/jeans and even had striped socks, but was well versed in gemara and Judaism etc. I’d believe him if he told me he’s frum and comes/went to a dif background. I wouldn’t think to research him.

    #1968402

    Can someone clarify halakha regarding “checking” people out – I thought that it is normal to assume someone is Jewish based on behavior for the purposes of calling to the Torah, etc but there is a procedure requiring witnesses to be recognized as a kohen

    #1968400

    common >> @AAQ, here is your proof that you can know how to learn and be a goy gumer even a missonary.

    Maybe it means that the community has a dress code, but can’t find missionary thinking too unusual? Again, we don’t know details – whether he was Goy Haaretz or Goy Haham.

    >> PS he was very vigilant about using a mask and keeping social distance beause R Meir Twersky said so

    here you go again attacking daas Torah for no other reasons than that it hurts your opinion.
    As R Akiva commented, “I would bite like a horse”

    #1968399
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @mindful, I applogize for the tone but not the substance of what I wrote before.
    “This is a tragedy of our scosiety. He is worried for a message being not kosher, more than pushing away a Jew!

    All these breaches of holocho can be fixed now. These are minor issues compared to the fact that the cast majority of Jews in the world are completely separated from Judaism!
    And this attitude that protecting yourself is more important than reaching out to a fellow Jew is the cause of it.”
    The Torah says in seder devarim, yihay mechanecha kosdosh,we need to keep out camps holy, nowhere in the torah does it say we need to reach out to non frum.
    these are very serious breaches possibly causing mamzayim, pusel sefray torah etc. frankly what happened here makes my skin crawl

    #1968397

    participant >> comes/went to a dif background.

    TLIK, you are right – some are paying too much attention to the dress codes. Do image search for, for example, Slabodka Yeshiva – they all seem to come from a “different” background. I imagine when you see a Haham in a turban, you would fully freak out.

    #1968435
    Participant
    Participant

    I guess we shouldn’t judge people if they’re not wearing a mask.

    #1968438
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Yes. We are.

    Not exclusively in regards to cases like this, but more so in how we allow the זפת שעל פני המים to enter our communities. It’s not a contradiction to be welcoming yet simultaneously steadfast and sharp.

    #1968440

    >> , yihay mechanecha kosdosh … nowhere in the torah does it say we need to reach out to non frum.

    This is exactly why Hashem sent Moshe to gather all 36 tzadikim and made them march to EY, rather than bother wiht millions of Amei Haarertz!

    There is a fine difference between dealing with Jews who are against and those who are lost. R Salanter moved from Litva to West, saying that you can’t stop the guy going down the slope but you can talk to him at the bottom.

    So, while the desire to keep the camp holy is understandable as self-protection, it is definitely a perversion of Torah to say that we don’t care about other Jews. Early advocates of the self-preservation system, like Hazon Ish, surely undertood the trade-offs but it seems that this is leading to kefira after several generations of self-preservationists teaching each other.

    #1968446
    Participant
    Participant

    “I imagine when you see a Haham in a turban, you would fully freak out.”
    on the thread “gadol or rebbi” you refer to a “haham” as a “rav”. why in your above post do you switch?

    #1968535
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, “here you go again attacking daas Torah” interesting, this is coming from someone who said there is nothing called daas torah and openly mocks asking a Rav.
    Unlike you I respect everyone having a diversity of opinions, for example I am makpid on Cholov Yisroel do I still hold Rav Moshe Ztl was a posek hador? absoluty, I just didnt take on his heter on Chol Akum, can one who relies on Reb Moshe’s heter be a frum erlicher yid without a shadow of a doubt.

    #1968818

    participant> “haham” as a “rav”.

    I am referring here to a Sephardic position of a Haham (turban) which seems to be an equivalent to the Rav. See here https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-sephardic-rabbinic-leaders-called-rabbi-or-chacham

    #1968881
    Participant
    Participant

    @aaq
    gee thanks for defining haham.
    now can you explain why you’re using different terminology? why in reference to the rabbi wearing a turban you call him haham, on the other thread a rabbi is “ram”?

    #1968890
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    You are confusing two completely different subjects. If you are talking about inviting someone for a Shabbos meal as being the meaning of “welcoming”, then no we are not too welcoming. It is O.K. to invite someone to a Shabbos meal even if they turn out to be a goy.

    If you are talking about accepting someone as a Sofer Stam, the halacha is quite clear that you should only be buying from someone reputable and should not be looking for a bargain when purchasing tashmishei kedusha. In general, there is a weakness in the entire system of checking out people who write Sifrei Torah and Mezuzos. Yes, we should learn a lesson and require background checks that are published online for every Sofer, and we should require that the name of the Sofer as well as the date written should be information that is included with every pair of Tefillin and every Mezuzah. Otherwise, when something like this happens, the people who were tricked into buying pasul tashmishei kedusha may never even know that they are using pasul mezuzos and tefillin. Theoretically, we should be able to issue a “recall” of all the tashmishei kedusha a Sofer has ever written.

    If the Hachnasas Orchim could be more organized, that would make it easier to spot fakers early. What if there was a registry for individuals interested in being Shabbos guests? The first time they wanted to be a guest, they could be invited to the house of a Kiruv Rabbi who checks them out. After that, they might be invited back and they might not. Usually Kiruv Rebbeim can figure out who is problematic and who is not. It might take more than one Shabbos meal, but eventually they will figure it out.

    #1968893
    ujm
    Participant

    We ought to create a yichus registry to insure the kashrus of all members of the community.

    #1968946
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    After reading the comments section writting in a major English languge Israeli newspaper about this story my feelings got stronger, the comments were full of people saying gotcha now come to J, yes we have to be more vigilant who we being into our homes. For every Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb there is a Michael Elk, I feel used like someone you invited into your house and they stoled your wife jewlery or a molester who came to your house for a meal and attacked your child,

    #1969258
    Participant
    Participant

    @aaq
    please answer question. thx.

    #1970496

    participant> rabbi wearing a turban you call him haham, on the other thread a rabbi is “ram

    sorry, just saw you complaining that I did not reply. It does look hypocritical for me to be called AAQ and then ignore questions! I am not sure what is the question though – Sephardi Rabbis have an official title “Haham”. The joke is a pun on that. Wiki explains that this is because Muslim consider “Rab” to be a shem Hashem.

    I personally prefer R Nathan Kamenetsky’s use of “R” that he invited the reader to imagine any way they want – Rav, Rabbi, Rebbe, Rabban, Rabeinu, Rosh Golah ..

    #1970524
    Participant
    Participant

    I realized sfardic rabbis are referred to as haham. why in your hypothetical scenario above involving my meeting a turban clad rabbi, do you use the sfardic term? is this because a rabbi wearing a turban is probably sfardi?

    #1970540

    Participant, maybe I did not travel much lately, but I never met a turban-clad Ashkenazi Rav except on Purim. Rabbis of Bavli and Kohen Godol were earing it, but Ashkenazim seem to have lost the tradition here. Maybe Ashkenazim in Tzefat were wearing turbans?

    interestingly, early Muslims required dhimmis to wear yellow patches/yellow turbans, and possibly Christians introduced similar distinct dress for Jews and Muslims as a response.

    #1970586

    Why would an Ashkenazi wear a turban except on Purim? Rabbis of Talmud and Koen godol wore it, but Ashkenazim seem to lose the traditional dress and switch to more European one.

    Interestingly, Muslims made dhimmis wear a yellow turban or patch, and then Christians retaliated by making Muslims and Jews wear yellow or red patches .. Seems like in places where Jews continued wearing turban, it was enough for Europeans. But Ashkenazim had to wear patches and also pointed hats. Then, in 17th century both non-Jews and Jews in Eastern Europe/Poland wore shtreimels. Later, Poles switch to new French fashions, and shterimels became fully Jewish.
    After Khmelnitsky, Jews running away from Ukraine to Germany made shtreimels more popular there. Interestingly, a 1942 The “Jewish Hat” as an Aspect of Social History
    by Raphael Straus claims that emphasis on covering head all the time was connected (maybe in some places?) with Shabbatai Tzvi movement

    #1970592
    Participant
    Participant

    hmmm seems like holy you also associates clothing with background.

    #1970648

    participant, sorry for being so slow, that is your question!

    I am only using headwear here to presume ethnicity. I would not say call someone Haham just because he wears a turban more than I’ll call someone a Rav because he has a black hat or a Professor because he wears a jacket. Your question goes to R Yannai who invited a person who was dressed like a haver, but did not know how to say a brocho, but still claimed Torah as morasha

    #1970655
    Participant
    Participant

    so headwear indicates ethnicity; lack of headwear cannot.

    #1970662
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    After rereading the articles, it seems like this thread is based on a misunderstanding. It could be that the family was not welcomed into either community. They integrated on their own. The were likely only able to do so with the training that missionaries receive about avoiding topics. If these communities are so welcoming to newly observant outsiders, I definitely will give them a look before I settle down.

    #1970677

    participant – lack of headwear: a lot of hair – Eliahu, lack of hair – Elisha, eaten by bears – member of trade union.

    #1970676

    >> If these communities are so welcoming to newly observant outsiders, I definitely will give them a look before I settle down.

    I understood the story that they presented themselves as regular members of the community moving from another country, not newly observant. Maybe I misunderstood.

    #1970697
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    It would still stand that they may have never been welcomed. It was not necessary. They knew what to do.

    #1970705
    Participant
    Participant

    @aaq
    eh, what?

    #1970711

    paticipant, look up Radak on naarim ketanim from Yericho confronting Elisha

    #1971523
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    There is a missionary working as a “shomer” in a funeral home in New Jersey. His father is Jewish, his mother is an Italian Roman Catholic. Because of him, actual frum Jews, including rabbonim, lost their parnassa.

    #1971586
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We accept a cheskas kashrus and go after rov as most are not missionaries but sometimes we falter and we should check if they are shabbos observers.

    #1971824
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ Dovrosenbaum, most employees in the so called Jewish Funeral homes are not jewish, Riverside for example is owned by by a company called SCI that owns 1500 funeral homes across the US, they were once sued for allowing an autopsy on a frum yid and the funeral director said he was from the south and worked for SCI and temporarly assigned to Riverside and said he didnt know frum people had issues with a autopsy.

    @Reb E, we are talking about someone who is pretend to be Jewish, not a yid who does not observe shobbos, huge difference

    #1971857
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    After we discover that he does not keep shabbos, we must look further whether he is Jewish or a tinuk shenishba.

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