April 9, 2012 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #602849
You follow along the chazzan during mussaf, or the bal koreh during leining. Your favorite time of the year is Pesach, Shavuous, and Sukkos. Why? Well, during leining when they get up to “ka’eylah” you can no longer keep your exuberance contained. You must scream out ka’eylah! when the ba’al koreh is up to it. What is more, during mussaf, by the chazzan’s repetition or chazaras hashatz, you feel the need to blurt out every other word the chazzan sings, however annoying it may be. There is no halachic basis to this rite. You simply cannot suppress the opportunity to scream out “simcha liartzecha visason li’eyrecha” or “bichag hamatzos bichag hasvauous…” or even “tov umaitiv hedoresh lanu” How this started is beyond me, but I do know one thing: You are Ka’eylah Jew, and unless you either scale back or stp doing it completely, you are both bothering the tzibur and not following halacha, which demands we be silent during chazaras hashatz.
So, members of the CR, are you (gasp) guilty of being a Ka’eylah Jew?April 9, 2012 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1203208
I once saw in the ???? ????? that someone who says words loud with the ??? ????? is showing off!
I never grassped why this is so, but if the ??? ???? says it, there must be a reason for it!April 9, 2012 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1203209
A BIG Yasher Koach for noticing. Have a Good Mo’ed.April 9, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1203210
Frumguy, sarcasm won’t get you anywhere. I just wanted to hear members of the CR’s opinion on whether they do what I described above, and why they do it. If you weren’t being sarcastic then I thank you sincerely. Have a great mo’ed!April 9, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1203211
In our shule, the baal korei waits until the “choir” finishes ENTIRELY, then he proceeds.April 9, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1203212
Good post. I differentiate here between the laining and Chazanus. As a part time lainer, I hate that singing along, it is distracting and you are trying to make no mistakes, or in some cases you have to remember certain trops,or pronounciations, if you don’t know them real well. I don’t like any talking at the Bima either,sometimes the Gabbai has to do something.
For Chazanus, to be honest, I will sing along, only in 1 Shule where I am related to the Rav and feel a comfort level, and its also a small minyan, AND, it’s a very long davening, and he speaks alot, so there is a level of boredom by Mussaf. Other places I would just go out for a break if bored, there I can’t do that so easily.April 9, 2012 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1203213
When people do that with “ka’eyleh” I always think “yes, I know. Why can’t you be this helpful when I forget a trop?”April 9, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1203214
I have a real question and don’t mean to be making fun of anyone’s post by asking the q.
In mid of chazaras hashatz if there is not allowed to be talking, is there allowed to be singing? I daven in a shul where there is gorgeous singing, where all the men get very into it. Is this not allowed to be done?
Please don’t tell me to go look it up because I am female and would likely not understand a word I am reading.April 9, 2012 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1203215
A ka’eyleh Jew lol. In our shul the baal koreh pauses just before ka’eyleh, like lihavdil by haman in the megilla, to give everyone their two seconds of enjoyment before continuing being motzi the olam in the peace and quietApril 9, 2012 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1203216
Flatbush Dude: It was sincerely the latter. I really DO agree with you. Have a Good Mo’ed.April 9, 2012 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1203217
I’m a ka’eyleh jew! And that’s the correct pronounciation. With a segol under the lamed. I’m also a baal koreh for many years and it doesn’t bother me one bit, I actually see that people are paying attention to the kriah.April 9, 2012 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1203218
Isn’t Ka’eileh only on Pesach?April 9, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1203219
Flatbush Dude- ???? ????? ???? ???
happiest- AllowedApril 9, 2012 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1203220
Happiest: A lot of people say it’s not and their reasons are pretty strong. But the Minhag is very strongly not to be Makpid on it.April 9, 2012 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1203221
Now, how do I show this post to our “Assistant Chazzan” without offending…April 10, 2012 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1203222
frumguy, I’m happy it wasn’t what I initially feared-thank you very much!
yungerman – agreed, but for some reason I don’t remember it being as widespread as a few years ago – maybe I don’t have the most vivid memory though.
sam2 – i thought there was some ka’eyleh during sukkos and shavuous too, maybe during yom tov itself and not chol ha’moed. However, also realize that I was referencing mussaf chazaras hashatz which is prevalent during all yomim tovim obviously.April 10, 2012 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1203223
I have seen a MB that says that saying out loud with the chazzan is ossur.April 10, 2012 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1203224
Don’t forget about the Simchas Torah versions of “ka’eyleh” – the end of each aliyah at the laining of ST night. It seems to me that “V’heim alfei Menashe” is an even bigger, more prominent ka’eyleh event than Ka’eyleh itself. Any good baal koreh knows to pause right before these words.
I have heard that a certain adam gadol used to be the rov at one of the sleepaway camps. He would say Shema with the trop, and since he’d finish after everybody else, everyone could hear him laining the last part out loud. When he would reach “V’lo sasuru” the entire camp, or a large portion of it, would sing it together, out loud.April 10, 2012 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1203225
Perhaps nowadays some chazzanim appreciate knowing that at least some of the congregation is following him?
Some also appreciate the short break it gives him.
We sing “v-ne-e-mar” several times during the long Rosh HaShanah Mussaf for that purpose.April 10, 2012 5:52 am at 5:52 am #1203226
If I recall correctly, the only problem the Rosh had with saying words along with the Chazzen is that you might say Hashem’s name, too.
When I am by the Amud I appriciate the humming along, as it gives a positive feedback that all is going well.
However, I think Krias Hatorah is worse. Ignoring the Baal Koreh is like ignoring the voice from sinai. So sayeth the Sefarim.April 10, 2012 6:14 am at 6:14 am #1203227
i do it anyway.April 10, 2012 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1203228
Josh31: I appreciate knowing that someone is paying attention, but it’s still a little annoying — especially the people who pipe up with ka’eleh several words before I read it. As for Rosh Hashana mussaf, I’m not a chazzan (too young and can’t really sing) but the nussach provides many places during chazaras hashatz for people to sing so the chazzan can catch his breath including between all the uv’cheins in kedushat hayom.April 10, 2012 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1203229
Well, the worst is those places that yell out, “Emes Torasaini Hakdosha”, while you’re saying your Bracha of the Aliya. The first time I got that, I though I made some kind of mistake.April 11, 2012 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1203230
“pipe up with ka’eleh several words before I read it”
You are going too slow, and they cannot use a buggy whip on Shabbos or Yom Tov. 🙂April 11, 2012 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1203231
I am not one and I am personally against it, but I don’t say anything because it has become somewhat of a Minhag. Today, I got my enjoyment as the Baal Koreh was a Yemenite (in a Yeshivish/Chasidish shul) so no one knew how to “kaeylah”.April 11, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1203232
Ok, Ok, I admit it. I am a full-fledged, ko’eiyleh jew, I sing along with the chazzan’s mussaf, and enjoy breathing in the mixed smell of spring flowers, shmurah matza and Mom’s charoses. What is this tumult all about?? Ko’eiyleh is Koydesh Kodoshim!
Personally as a baal Tefilla I enjoy when the oilom joins in with the special Yom Tov niggun by Chazoras HaSha”tz and everyone gets “into it”. It’s beautiful! As far as Ko’eiyleh is concerned, Les Man D’polig, it must be said B’Kol Rom! In my shul, there’s not a soul that doesn’t sing that one out loud! It’s what makes Pesach Pesach! Forget Matza, morror, and co. If you don’t say Ko’eiyleh in my shul you would be deemed a koifur b’Ikar l’chol hadayos! And if a guy would c”v lein Ko’eila with a rev’ii or segol, (*inhales loud*) he’d be thrown out on his head, and be put in cheirum foreverApril 11, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1203233
How did the last pasuk of leining go by you today? Mine was very noisy… Lo sivashel gidi bachalev imo…
Funnily enough, yesterday ended with the exact same pasuk yet somehow it was not the same choral response. Maybe after hearing the pasuk yesterday they were more ready for it today…April 11, 2012 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1203234
Patur Aval AssurParticipant
For those who want the Mishna Berura’s perspective:
“Not only is it assur to say the whole bracha along with the chazzan which is a bracha levatala, even to choose random words (to say along) with him is incorrect because of the concern that the entire bracha might just flow out of his mouth. And surely those who raise their voices and sing along with the chazzan which is like arrogance and they should be rebuked because it is like kalus rosh.”
M.B. 124:16April 11, 2012 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1203235
unfortunately what the mishna berurah says is no longer paramount in the eyes of the masses (not that it ever really was but still).April 11, 2012 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1203236
“And surely those who raise their voices and sing along with the chazzan which is like arrogance and they should be rebuked because it is like kalus rosh.”
Claiming that such a practice is not in any way halachically problematic, let alone praiseworthy, would seem to also fit into this category of arrogance.April 11, 2012 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1203237
patur- nice to see you backApril 20, 2014 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1203238
Just saw this thread and figured Pesach was a great time to revive it. Anyone notice the “ka’ayleh” pandemic growing, or is it pretty much the same as always?
I think that people generally get a lot of simcha out of doing it, so I don’t even know what to think.April 20, 2014 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1203239
YW Moderator-42ModeratorApril 20, 2014 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1203240
if i was a baal koreh, just for kicks I’d read ‘ko’eileh’ with a revi’i trop
hee heeApril 20, 2014 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1203241
A friend of mine was leining and as he got to “ko’o’ei’ei’ei’leh” he paused, so everybody sang themselves, and then carried on with his own SOLO koeileh. Everybody appreciated it!April 21, 2014 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1203242
not that I am an opera star, but in my leining career, I used such an artistic azlahgeresh, that an educated tzibbur would wait for it without interrupting.August 1, 2014 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1203243
This week we have “kol-eyyyyleh”August 1, 2014 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1203244
I just noticed this topic.
If you don’t have money for food on Hol ha-Moed, of course you can sell your hat!August 1, 2014 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1203245
No but I’m an “eichaaaaa” esah levadi jew
And “eichahaaaaa” haysa lzonah jewAugust 2, 2014 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1203246
I don’t know of a Kehilah that doesn’t sing liberally with the Chazzan throughout Chazaras ha’Shas of the Yomim Nora’im. Is this wrong l’Fi the Mishnah Berurah, or since the Minhag is to sing these words and only these words, perhaps there is no Cheshash that one will say the whole Berachah, and it is not Meichzi k’Yuhara?August 3, 2014 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1203247
yerushalmi in exileParticipant
the avudraham says that in the paragraph of “ochilah” on rosh hashanah and yom kippur you should not sing along becasue it is only for the chazzan, sounds like everywhere else it ok to do so!August 3, 2014 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1203248
yerushalmi in exile: Nah, you’re just trying to rationalize it.August 3, 2014 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1203249
yerushalmi in exileParticipant
yes, but you see they were doing it already back thenAugust 3, 2014 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1203250
Patur Aval AssurParticipant
“I don’t know of a Kehilah that doesn’t sing liberally with the Chazzan throughout Chazaras ha’Shas of the Yomim Nora’im. Is this wrong l’Fi the Mishnah Berurah, or since the Minhag is to sing these words and only these words, perhaps there is no Cheshash that one will say the whole Berachah, and it is not Meichzi k’Yuhara?”
See Sha’arei Teshuva 582:7October 2, 2014 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1203251
Kuh’aaaaaaaayyyhhhhh’leh!!!October 3, 2014 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1203252
good thing we are discussing this before SUKKOSApril 6, 2015 7:25 am at 7:25 am #1203253
BumpApril 6, 2015 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1203254
chevra we are watching history in the making!
On another thread I predicted that in a few decades. All sorts of reasons for this heilege minhag vasikin would be given.
I was wrong!
I heard from Rav Shlesinger in monsey a reason for this minhag (I dont remebmer it) This minhag is taking off faster than expected!
Feel free to give your opwn reason
Ke’eileh is a roshei teives for the four pesukim of geulah in MEgilas esther:
Kuf- ki mordechai hayehudei
Alef – ish yehudi
Lamed – layehudim
Heh – Umordechai hayehudi (It starts with a vav which is only one letter away so its ok)April 6, 2015 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1203255
Perhaps it is a segulah for marriage. The letters in ???? can be rearranged to spell out ? ???!April 6, 2015 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1203256
Your favorite time of the year is Pesach, Shavuous, and Sukkos. Why? Well, during leining when they get up to “ka’eylah” you can no longer keep your exuberance contained. You must scream out ka’eylah! when the ba’al koreh is up to it.
Guilty as charged. When the ba’al kriah gets up to that point, I say it out load. True, I don’t scream it, but I do say it loud enough for everyone to hear. So far, no one has complained about it.
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