Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025346

    le7
    Member

    what doesent make any sense is since tznius is one of the womans main mitzvos, why isnt it a subject in school.

    #1025347

    blinky
    Participant

    what are you talkimg about-schools preach tzniyus since day one

    #1025351

    also, i think instead of our teachers telling us, go to a shuir, read books on tznius, go to special tznius workshops, they should actually bring in speakers on tznius, make tznius workshops, and assign tznius books to read. cuz most teenage girls will not just get up and go hear a shuir cuz their teacher said. unfortunatly, many of us only will read a frum book on tznius if we must for our mark.

    thats the blunt truth.

    #1025352

    another big problem is if the teachers aren’t good examples and wear things that aren’t 100% sometimes 100% assur, than what type of mssgs are we sending our girls?

    myfriend i agree 100% about the sleeves being too tight nowadays however i’m almost sure that covering the arms is a dirabanon (das yehudis) and covering the trunk of body and legs is das moshe – a dearaysa. Yes it’s very sad that i can’t find one decent company that makes shells in a tzniusdike fashion with ample room for the hands.

    #1025353

    blinky
    Participant

    “Yes it’s very sad that i can’t find one decent company that makes shells in a tzniusdike fashion with ample room for the hands.”

    Just buy a bigger size

    #1025354

    Be Happy
    Participant

    We must remember that our mitzva in life is tznius as men have their mitzva of Limmud Hatorah. I heard this from Rebetzin Braunstein z”l

    We also must remember that Tzinius is also in the way we behave, and the way we talk…..

    #1025355

    oomis
    Participant

    “It should be quite simple. Once we could have said, “Imagine if you are going to the Godol Hador for a beracha. Would you be embarrassed to be wearing that?”

    Yes, because the Gadol Hador HIMSELF might be embarrassed, and that is reason enough to refrain from doing so.

    #1025356

    missme
    Member

    What klal yisroel desperately needs is a “Tznius Czar” (similar to how the President appointed a “Drug Czar”.) We need, lhavdil, our own Nancy Reagan who declared war on drugs with the slogan “Just Say No” to Drugs; Like her “War on Drugs”, we need a “War on Pritzus”, with the educational message of “Say No to Pritzus, Yes to Tznius!”

    Maybe one of the Gedolim’s Rebbetzin can be serve this vital function.

    #1025357

    blinky – believe me i tried. Then the collars are bigger… then you have to pull it by the neck and it pulls by the sleeves and becomes tighter… whatever. It’s frustrating that FRUM manufacturers and FRUM stores can’t manufactor and sell a completely tzniusdik shell! (that actually goes to a bunch of clothing too.)

    #1025358

    Kasha
    Member

    There is a nice discussion on the Sources thread about Yarei Shamayim’s who don’t publicly call their wife by their first name:

    Making Stuff Up and Sources

    So far about 5 or 6 comments on it.

    #1025359

    jewish girl
    Member

    theres a story with the chofetz chaim:

    the chofetz chaim was sitting down with a few other rabbanim and a girl passes by dressed immodestly the chofetz chaim then turns to the other rabbanim and said “vos ? zu maent az mir zennin malachim?” what she thinks we are angels?

    #1025360

    WIY
    Member

    Honestly, I think if girls realized what dressing untzniusgig does to a man they would stop. I dont think most girls would appreciate knowing what goes on in a guys mind when they dress a certain way (and walk…talk…act…)

    Additionally, girls need to realize that they will be over on Lifnei Iver which is a Deoraysoh multiple times a day if they are purposely not dressing as Tzniusdik as they can.

    You can dress nice and you should but dont dress in a way that degrades you and makes men look at you like an object of desire.

    #1025362

    wellinformedyid – you are so right. Most girls simply don’t chap anything, and they dress the way they do , sometimes in a very untzniusdike fashion simply because that’s whats in style/peer pressure/because they like it. I have realized that it is simply something girls have great difficulty understanding, but they just have to accept it as fact, and dress accordingly. (Obviously they shouldn’t only dress and act betznius because of this, but because it’s a tzivuy Hashem.)

    #1025364

    myfriend
    Member

    Another big problem thats common is people wearing a belt around the shirt. This obviously makes the shirt too tight.

    #1025365

    oomis
    Participant

    You speak about peer pressure and “most girls” as if their peers are not ALSO yeshiva girls. If they don’t go to B”Y, then they are not feeling any peer pressure, just peer fashion, and there is no pressure on them, they happily comply. If they DO go to B”Y, are you saying that most nice B”Y girls are not dressing b’tznius? Please clarify. Certain inyanim of tznius and fashion are a matter of opinion. Some opinions are different from others. For example, someone was constantly referring a year ago or so to the cap sleeves shirt or dress under which a long sleeved shirt is worn, as not being tzniusdig. So please tell me, in what way is that different from wearing a jumper with that same shirt? The jumper is sleeveless altogether.

    #1025366

    oomis- pay close attention to my wording “most girls simply don’t chap” (spking about the fact that men can have tayvos and thoughts when they see them…) and SOMETIMES dress in a very untzniusdike fashion…” i purposefully didn’t write any specifics – yeshivish/non yeshivish, very frum/not as frum, because there are people who dress b’tznius and not b’tznius in all circles. and yes unfortunately sometimes BY girls dress in a manner that is untzniusdik a”p HALACHA, not any sensitivities like you mentioned abt cap – sleeves.(I actually once heard that different gedolim came out and said its assur, i wonder if its true. Many times people make up things in their names. But a”p HALACHA i can’t see why it would be assur, maybe as a sensitivity… that’s something else.)

    #1025367

    oomis
    Participant

    I hear you. However, when girls don’t “chap” it might be because when teaching them about personal tznius in dress and in action, no one speaks plainly to them about why tznius is crucial, and they are as yet, too innocent to understand the ramifications on their own. All the comments of “kol kvoda bas melech pnima” won’t cut it for the girl who might need to be told without fanfare and straightforwardly,”When a girl dresses in such and such a way, the biological reactions that Hashem gave to men, might lead them to have inappropriate thoughts and physical responses to what they see. Hashem designed us this way for a good reason, but not unless the time and circumstance are filled with kedusha, such as in marriage.”

    Merely telling a girl she should dress modestly because it is the right thing to do, does not enhance her understanding of the negative results of her failure to dress and act modestly. Hence, they do not always “chap” because no one has ever actually told them what happens when they wear short, tight clothing. In kallah classes, they are very frank with girls. Any girl who is old enough to be considered (almost)a kallah moid, should be having similar instruction in high school IMO.

    #1025368

    oomis, i agree 100%. i once made a comment about not attracting men or something like that to a girl and she just thought i was crazy. I couldn’t believe her complete and total innocence, and i didn’t know what to say, i just left it as it was.

    #1025370

    WIY
    Member

    oomis1105

    You totally nailed it. That is the issue. Once the girls hit 9th or 10th grade these things must be discussed, because lets face it, girls develop quicker than boys and in this day and age almost all 9th and 10th grade aged girls know good and well where babies come from and all that. For some reason girls dont understand what happens to men when they see women dressed provocatively unless they are told. The schools have a responsibility and obligation to tell them. Im not sure why they dont when it seems so obvious that they should.

    #1025371

    jewish girl
    Member

    even though it may seem easy to guys like why cant they just lenghten their skirts its actually really hard.

    #1025372

    jewish girl
    Member

    who says they dont tell 9th and 10th grades students? they might not explain to them what it does to men when they see improperly dressed girls but they definetly talk about tznius. many schools have a class dedicated to tznius.

    #1025373

    jewishgirl

    that’s exactly what were saying. That girls know they should be tzniusdik but they’re not explained what it causes men to think… when they see pritzus.

    #1025374

    jewish girl
    Member

    but in high school they cant explain what it does to guys (it really depends what high school) but they do in seminary.

    #1025375

    blinky
    Participant

    A non frum man once told a schoolmate of mine that he was exremely frum but when slits came out everything went downhill from there…

    #1025376

    blinky – thats pretty scary. Your sure it was only that?

    #1025377

    blinky
    Participant

    The story is true, but i don’t know this man personally so i can’t tell you how he was before. But the way he made it sound was that he was pretty frum. It is scary.

    #1025378

    jewish girl
    Member

    so tight shirts/skirts, short skirts had no effect on him?

    #1025379

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    blinky, that sounds like an excuse. No frum person goes OTD because of a slit. He may have decided not to fight his desire anymore, but that’s it.

    Remember, women are not required to wear burqas because a man may have a taiva. We are required to dressed tzniusdigly according to our own mesorah and halacha, not according to the whim of every man.

    My high school actually had a class about marriage in 12th grade and discussed things in fair detail. I laughed because they spend 9-11th grade telling you to stay away from boys and then 12th grade telling you to marry them.

    #1025380

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Color me a bit skeptical. I highly doubt someone chooses to go off the derech solely because they see a slit in a skirt.

    The Wolf

    #1025381

    blinky
    Participant

    “No frum person goes OTD because of a slit.”

    This could have been just “one too many” issue, like I said i don’t know him personally, but this was definitely a contributing factor in his going downhill.

    #1025382

    blinky
    Participant

    The slits that im talking about are not the small ones. This story happened a while back when the slits went all the way up! There is a big difference.

    #1025383

    WIY
    Member

    Im guessing this guy didnt go off from the slit but it was the catalyst that lead him down a road of indulging in Tayvos noshim which pretty much leads down hill fast vhamayvin yovin.

    #1025384

    rebbitzen
    Member

    um, SJSinNYC, i think that makes sense that until twelfth grade they should be telling you not to talk to them..it’s not appropriate. and then when you are nearing “the age”, it makes sense to tell you to marry them..i dont chap whats so funny to you?

    #1025387

    Be Happy
    Participant

    I got this email which I think says a lot. The clothes we wear should be suitable for all situations:

    Moshiach is on his way – are you ready?

    Do You Have Something to Wear when Moshiach Comes?

    After a week filled with fear and awe, we feel that there is so very much to beg for now, during the Yomim Nora’im. Beseeching Hashem for Bi’iyas HaMoshiach has finally become something real and tangible.

    On Rosh Hashona, my family discussed what it will be like when Moshiach comes and how we are all looking forward to his arrival. It was then that my mother asked, “Have you decided what you’re going to wear to greet Moshiach?” The whole family got very nervous. I could not think of one outfit in my entire wardrobe in which it would be befitting for the Avos,Imahos, Moshe Raabeinu, Dovid Hamelech, Devorah Haniviah, etc. to see me dressed. How could I appear before them with my skirt just covering my

    knees? Maybe my new suit is okay. No, the problem is that it’s tight fitting. Can I wear my skin-tone stockings? But how would Sorah Imainu know there’s something there? She’ll think it’s my bare leg!? How can I wear my Shabbos shoes with those high platforms? What will Moshiach say to that? I really like one of my new Shabbos outfits, but it reaches my ankles. Is that

    really appropriate for me to wear?

    We all experienced a sinking feeling. How is it possible that we have nothing to wear to greet Moshiach although our closets are packed with clothing? Then someone commented, “If all our clothes aren’t good enough for Moshiach, why are they okay to wear now?” If we have been crowned by Hakadosh Boruch Hu with the most precious adornment, “Bonim Atem La’Hashem Elokeichem” shouldn’t we always look like B’nos Melech? We were all speechless. We had absolutely nothing to say for ourselves. On the Yom Ha’din we had to confess that we have nothing in which we would feel omfortable to appear before Moshiach. Suddenly the solution hit me like a

    bolt of lightning. “I think I’ll wear my Bais Yaakov uniform! That is something I’ll feel good about wearing.” Imagining to myself the throngs of Bais Yaakov girls all going to greet our holy ancestors in one united uniform. My heart swelled with a warm glow.

    But why is that my uniform is the only outfit of which Moshiach will be proud?!

    #1025388

    njgirl
    Member

    i totally see how it could be one thing (regarding going off the derech because of slits) remember how chamets and matzah are so linguistically related but when you look at the ches and the hay-

    what is the difference?

    a litle line, thats all it takes, to go from matzah to chametz. this makes sense to me. and thats why we have so many fences, and chumros to stay so far away from cases like the slits to going OTD

    While tznius is probably the most multi faceted topic, one main reason is to be a fence, or a “siyug latorah”(pirkei avos)

    #1025389

    njgirl
    Member

    and- if i may reiterate, in my opinion what we teenage girls need is role models in tznius! we are so thirsty for good role models, which unfortunatly in many cases are very hard to come by.

    #1025390

    WIY
    Member

    njgirl:

    What exactly is a role model in tznius and what will that help? Dont the Rebbetzins dress tnius? Yet no girl wants to go dressed like a Rebbetzin. What good is a tnius role model if in actually nobody will actually dress as she does or as she recommends?

    I understand that its a huge nisayon but at the same time it is truly out of hand. There are so many girls and young marrieds (as well as many middle aged who think they are still 20) today who dont or just barely cover their knees and wear very tight clothing. I really dont know what the bais yakovs and seminaries are priding themselves about if the one thing that a girl has to do they arent doing? Let them learn less Rambans and spend more time on Tznius. Obviously the Tznius message is lost on the girls.

    #1025391

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Rebbitzen, I understood their reasoning, but I found it funny. Especially because I went to a school where a lot of the girls were dating in 9-11 grades and were very much discouraged, but by 12th grade, weren’t.

    We had a senior Kallah and another engagement right after HS ended. This is a MO school and we were ahead of my local Bais Yaakov HAHA!

    #1025393

    jewish girl
    Member

    we dont need rebetzins as role models cuz they always dress b’tznius and its not such a hard nisayon for them. but we need to see normal girls that havent always been b’tznius and then we look up to them. but i think that teachers have to realize that its very hard for us to lengthen our skirts, loosen our tops, fix our necklines etc. but to be patient with us and allow us to change slowly.

    #1025394

    R.L.
    Member

    “For some reason girls dont understand what happens to men when they see women dressed provocatively unless they are told. The schools have a responsibility and obligation to tell them. Im not sure why they dont when it seems so obvious that they should.”

    Why’s it the school’s responsibility to tell this to the girls? You’ve obviously never been in a 9th/10th grade girls classroom – girls that age are not so mature. I think that it’s the mother’s responsibility to tell her daughter these things.

    #1025395

    jewish girl
    Member

    they do discuss it in seminary. i know where i am they have been discussing tznius in depth through rabbi falks books and other aspects of tznius.

    #1025396

    oomis
    Participant

    Many mothers are clearly uncomfortable talking about these things in clear terms. There should be teachers specifically trained (maybe Kallah class teachers) who talk to the girls.

    #1025397

    R.L.
    Member

    Oomis – I dont know about such mothers cuz my mom is not at all uncomfortable, but I don’t think it’s right to even say that it’s the school’s responsibility. I dont think that a classroom is the appropriate place to discuss these things. You should see what it’s like trying to teach Parshas… (someone help me out here – which Parsha is it again that talks about the tum’ah after a baby?)

    #1025398

    Seems to me it is the mother’s responsibility to teach them herself or if she does not feel comfortable or competent then to find someone who is, (maybe the Bubbie or, as someone said, the local Kallah class teacher)

    #1025399

    jewish girl
    Member

    R.L.:

    Parshas Tazria

    #1025400

    philosopher
    Member

    Give me a break. There’s no reason to talk about what happens to men when they see women dressed not tzniusdig.

    Tznius is about a women dressing in a way that respects her and her body and this could be taught without mentioning anything about men.

    Thousands of girls are educated to be tzniusdig and eidel in dress and manner without mentioning the effects of non-tznius on men.

    The point of this mitzvah is not about protecting men because they can see goyishe women barely dressed on the street. It’s about protecting women and that focus of tznius that is succesfully taught in many schools and homes.

    Although my daughters are not in 9th/10th grade yet, I know their schools tznius curriculum in high school doesn’t include anything about men and yet the girls in that school as many other schools that stress the importance of tznius without bringing in the men factor, are very tzniusdig and aidel in dress, conduct and speech.

    #1025401

    Well said, philosopher

    #1025402

    R.L.
    Member

    philosopher – but then what do you say when a girl says “tznius is about self respect – ok, so I have none, now why shouldnt I wear my mini skirt outside”?

    someone said this to me when I was trying to convince her that she cant go outside in a mini skirt.

    #1025403

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I agree with Philosopher also.

    A woman’s obligation to keep hilchos tznius is not dependant on what a man thinks/feels.

    #1025404

    jewish girl
    Member

    with some types of girls they say the same when they try the whole “its your body respect it…” they need to hear what it does to guys so they can understand the consequences of their actions.

    philosopher:

    it dependson what scholl your kids go to. if they go to a chassidish school then yea, most of the girls there are tznius. im not saying that other schools arnt tznius but in the chassidush schools its very easy for them to be dressed properly

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