Chillul Hashem Or Not?

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  • #595828

    I was getting on to the B9 on 60th ST, behind me were some frum bachurim getting on. As i’m sitting down the driver calls out ” last guys on, step forward!” At first I thought he meant me, then I saw the boys going so I calmed down.

    What I saw, shocked me!

    They had not paid, and were debating with the driver if they have to pay or not, claiming they are students. I was mortified! A whole bus of non-jews and they’re acting like street kids!

    Are we doing a bad job educating oyr youth?

    #751847
    cherrybim
    Participant

    You paint with a very broad brush. Why are you being so politically correct? Spell it out.

    #751848
    blueprints
    Participant

    Well if they are classed as students (cos let’s say their yeshiva is a registered talmudical college) then they have perfect right to free ride (I assume that’s the American law in England you need an oyster card anyway)

    No chillul at all beshum ponim veofan

    #751849
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    According to NYC law, Title 45 Section 187, any student is allowed to ride the city bus for free, and don’t need to show ID, as long as they are going for a “qualified school purpose”.

    I don’t know what a “qualified school purpose” is, but maybe these kids were doing that.

    #751850
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Leon Normanson,

    I can’t assess exactly what the problem was based on your post.

    Are students with a valid student ID allowed to ride on this route without paying a fare? I’ve been places where that is the case. Were they students? If they were mistaken in their assumption of what the policy was, did they pay?

    #751851

    Are we doing a bad job educating oyr youth?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. What I fail to see is, how does an isolated incident serve as a reflection on such broad question, to which a proper study must be conducted.

    To answer your question, we’re doing a great job! Just ask any of the local Police Precincts.

    #751852

    My question is, are we doing a good job educating ourselves in tolerance and slander?

    #751853
    rosesharon
    Participant

    Of course it is a chillul Hashem, and quite frankly one that happens more often than not. In fact my husband who is a public school teacher as well as a teacher in a yeshiva can attest that the public school kids behave more often than not better than his yeshiva students (and he is not the only one in his public school job to say this). As to your question “are we doing a bad job educating our youth” the answer is yes and no. I feel that we teaching boys to be better Jews then people with derech eretz even though “derech eretz kadma l’torah”. When I was in high school we had “chesed hours.” Only in Yeshiva of Flatbush have I heard of boys having that requirement. I am not saying that chesed hours is a cure all and will automatically help, but an emphasis on long hours of learning and little secular studies, community awareness, and public service does little to help either.

    #751854
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Public school kids behave better than yeshiva students? In lala land. I never heard of guns being found in yeshivas, something plentiful been found in PS. Violence? In PS, not yeshivas. Stop maligning our better behaved children than any other demographic group.

    And more secular studies is going to help them behave better? That’s a good one.

    #751855
    charliehall
    Participant

    “To answer your question, we’re doing a great job! Just ask any of the local Police Precincts. “

    Uh, not such a great job if you look at the number of allegedly frum people doing time in prison for financial crimes.

    #751856
    Grandmaster
    Member

    charlie: Which is a far far far lower percentage of the prison population than the percentage of the overall population the frum represent.

    #751857
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Grandmaster, enough of the high handed superiority complex. I’ve taught and worked in and with public schools, Jewish day schools, yeshivos ktanos, and yeshivos and Jewish high schools. I’ve seen good and bad schools, and good and bad students in all of them. There are public schools with great academics, no violence, no drugs, and a culture of respect. There are yeshivos with drug, violence, bullying, and respect problems. Denying our faults is a useless and dangerous pursuit. Putting down non-Jews reflexively is a transgression of kovod habriyos. Do you have 20 years of experience dealing with both systems? Can you back up your broad assertions with experience? Have you encountered a child in a chareidi yeshiva who wet his pants with fear every time a teacher approached his desk because he was being physically and emotionally abused at home? I have. Have you encountered a child in a chareidi yeshiva who cried when he didn’t win a can of coke in an in-class contest because his family of 14 couldn’t afford even a bottle of soda and he didn’t know what it tasted like? I have. Have you had to ask the principal to suspend a bullying bochur, a rabbi’s son, a repeat and systemic little criminal who forced money and other things from other kids in the chareidi yeshiva he went to? I have.

    Of course there are violent and unsafe public schools. But there are also ones which are models of manners, respect, tolerance, learning, and inclusiveness. I’ve taught Catholic high school kids about the Shoah and they showed more interest and value in the lessons to be learned than some of the frum kids I have encountered.

    That said, I have encountered rebbeim, students, and families in yeshivos who set a gold standard of menschlichkeit.

    Do you sleep better at night thinking only the goyim and the frei have problems? Wishing does not make it so.

    #751858
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    According to NYC law, Title 45 Section 187, any student is allowed to ride the city bus for free, and don’t need to show ID, as long as they are going for a “qualified school purpose”.

    Poppa,

    Where would I find this law? I searched for NYC law and came up with the city charter (which is not organized by titles), the City Administrative Code (which only has 29 titles) and the Rules of the City of New York, in which Title 45 concerns itself with Borough Presidents.

    The Wolf

    EDITED POST:

    No link this time?

    #751859
    Grandmaster
    Member

    superiority complex

    The Am Hanivchar is superior.

    #751860
    Grandmaster
    Member

    yichusdik: Which Yeshiva has had shootings? Any Columbine incidents in any Yeshiva you know of? Do any yeshiva’s have metal detectors for the students as they come in each morning, as the NYC P.S. system does?

    #751861
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No link this time?

    Will you let me post it?

    The Wolf

    #751862
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Laws of the City of New York: http://24.97.137.100/nyc/

    The Wolf

    #751863
    yichusdik
    Participant

    If you’ve learned anything from the shakla v’tarya of regular learning, Grandmaster, you should know that setting up straw men is a frankly amateurish way to argue. So let me address your points, even though you ignored mine.

    Being the am hanivchar means exactly what it says. Chosen. For a higher purpose, a higher calling. An Ohr Lagoyim. It also means chosen for nisayon. As you might know, we don’t always do very well with our nisyonos. Have you learned sefer Shoftim? We have sometimes abjectly failed our nisyonos individually and as a people. We have shown hakodosh boruch hu that we have the potential to lower ourselves to the 49th level of tumah, but also to raise ourselves to the 49th level of purity. If we are superior in ANYTHING, it is in our potential. Don’t ever have the arrogance to think we are at the 49th level of purity simply by being born into yiddishkeit. We have to work at it. Anivus, by the way, is something else we should work on.

    I fully concede that the yeshivos in NY and elsewhere do not have a gun problem. I’ve got a newsflash for you, though. Young people are physically hurt and bullied every single day in yeshivos, as they are elsewhere. there is a makkah of lack of derech eretz and lack of kovod all over the place. If you want to take comfort and pride in the fact that our bochurim are not shooting each other, please do so. I’m more concerned about the problems that need to be addressed, rather than the ones that don’t.

    I don’t live in New York, and where I live the public schools don’t have metal detectors, so I can’t speak to the NY experience. Frankly, though, it is an irrelevancy and a straw man, because I never asserted that all yeshivos were more dangerous than all public schools.

    Now perhaps you could address the points I raised.

    #751867
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Strawmen? Murders in public schools is a yearly reality. Violence in public schools is a daily reality. Drugs can be purchased at will in public school. None of this is a reality in Yeshiva. You talk about respect in Yeshivos? In public school respect is for their favored gang. Not for their parents and certainly not for their teachers. Their fellow students? That’s who they bring their guns to “protect” themselves from. Yes, yichusdik, the Am Hanivchor is superior across the board, in all regards, on all levels.

    #751868
    commonsense
    Participant

    btw, although students are entitled to ride the bus free they cannot just get on the bus. They have to be registered through a school and have the free metrocard they were issued. if they do not have the cards on them they cannot ride free.

    #751869
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The OP describes a situation using words like “shocked”, “mortified”, and “street kids”, but the actual details provided in the post make it very unclear what exactly happened that was a chillul Hashem.

    Then we have two posters fly into the discussion from out of the woodwork putting down Yeshiva students – practically as a whole – with Grandmaster striking back by putting down public school students.

    I have the feeling that something disingenuous is going on with this thread.

    #751870
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Once again, grandmaster, not addressing the issue. Tell me, please, what direct experience do you have in or with a public school. Have you taught in one? Have you consulted for one? Have you worked with administrators to deal with issues of prejudice and violence in Public schools? Because I have done so. You know what else? I’ve personally witnessed Rebbeim and administrators in Yeshivos assault students. Not brutally, not so as it would leave a scar, but 100% within the legal definition of assault. Never once saw that in a public school. Anyone who is found to do so would lose their job. In our community, it is par for the course. So applaud yourself if you wish about the lack of shootings – which, if you didn’t notice, I already conceded. Applaud yourself over the relative absence of drugs (and if you believe they are totally absent, I have a piece of swampland in Florida to sell you). Those are pretty sad benchmarks for the am hanivchar. —-We’re sooo much better because we don’t have shootings. That’s the standard we measure by.—-

    Oh, and if the am hanivchar is superior on all levels in all regards across the board, why are we in golus, exactly?

    #751871
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Nothing disingenuous. And, by the way, i responded to Grandmaster’s comments, not the other way around. I’m just sick and tired of hearing that things are OK, great, no problem, and by the way the andere are behaymes, when in fact we have real issues and in fact some of those andere are doing a good job of educating their children.

    Ask an honest yeshiva administrator – better yet a retired one who doesn’t have to worry about losing a job – about the issues I raised, or best, a woman who has worked as a secretary in one of our yeshivos. THey see everything that happens.

    Wolf, Charlie, should I even bother to continue postiing in this thread? I know that agree or disagree, you actually read what people write. Am I wasting my time with grandmaster?

    #751872
    Grandmaster
    Member

    yichusdik: You will not cause anyone to become unconvinced that the Am Hanivchar, even whilst in golus, are far superior in all regards over others. Even if you bring more sheker and loshon hora against Yeshiva bochorim and rebbeim.

    #751873

    Isn’t it amazing that a public school teacher is able to post at 10 30 AM?!

    It certanly isn’t a hired union PR thug, right? 🙂

    Avram in MD: I think you’re correct. Thanks for making it clear

    #751874
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Mods, can you please change Grandmaster’s subtitle to “Joseph”?

    Thanks!

    #751875
    metrodriver
    Member

    yichusdik; Your (First) post is highly informative (even though at times it sounds like a poem.) and educational. But I believe you are confusing Two similar-sounding terms. When you say “Systemic” are you sure, you don’t really mean “Systematic”? I’ve heard a “Journalist” on radio clearly confuse (Here’s an Oxymoron.) the terms. OK. But he attained his job through Affirmative Action. For example he said “Cirrhosis” (of the liver) when he was really trying to say “Psoriasis”. BTW. that same “Reporter” was rewarded for his “Genius” by by being kicked upstairs. He was made “Editor” at the same station

    #751876
    yichusdik
    Participant

    First: I am not a public school teacher. I have in the past taught in chareidi schools, consulted in public schools, catholic schools, M.O schools, and other Jewish schools. I’ve supervised educational staff working in small Jewish communities. And tell me, please. Does a public elementary school in, say, rural Nebraska in the middle of the bible belt have a gang problem? Because you said it did by tarring all with the same brush.

    Next, I am not a hired union pr thug – in fact I will state very clearly for the record that my politics are conservative and I am not a fan of unions in general and teachers unions in particular.

    I’m writing what I know and have seen in this forum davka because I’d rather share it with people who are nogeah b’dovor and might recognize the reality – and then do something about it (not loshon horah, not only because I didn’t identify what schools, when or where, but also because it is given over in a spirit of tikun) than make a mockery of the whole yeshiva system befarhesia, as you, Grandmaster, do of the public system. There are many excellent yeshivos, but there are also too many which desperately need guidance, chizuk, and tikun.

    Next, I mirrored your comments. You denigrated a system serving a population of 330 million in the US alone, by referencing serious problems that apply to a small fraction of the schools in the US. I gave examples from what I know. I stood at the desk of the kid who was terrified, and watched him shrink away from me in dread when I asked him to answer a question on the board. This particular incident happened 21 years ago, but I still remember his name and his face, the haunted eyes and the bent glasses, and his unfortunate story which I learned from other teachers who had taught him before. How dare you call his pain sheker!

    I also know that the very best, most respectful, most cheindik student I ever encountered was at the same school. He wasn’t a genius, but he always worked hard, always was the first to help, always treated his teachers and his peers with respect, and always had a smile on his face. I know his parents, and he is cut from the wonderful cloth that represents all that is beautiful about Chareidi communities.

    Metro, you are absolutely right about my use of the word systemic. I was writing so fast that I used a word I was thinking of to describe the problems yeshivos must address (systemic) instead of one describing this boy’s modus operandi (systematic). Thank you for the correction. By the way, To show you and any other reader that I’m not saying the whole system is completely rotten, the bochur who was bullying eventually got older and wiser, changed his behavior, and became a real ben torah. Someone got through to him within the yeshiva world. Sorry for the cadence of my words, if it was distracting. I tend to write that way when I’m passionate about the subject.

    Finally, I don’t intend to conflate my discussion about being am hanivchar with criticism of some problems in the yeshiva world.

    I may not cause you to change your mind, and that is your prerogative, grandmaster. But perhaps there are those reading who might look at the discussion as an opportunity to reflect on what the eibishter expects of us AS an am hanivchar, rather than using the term as a mark of aristocracy.

    You have demonstrated a complete inability to address a single issue I raised by referencing personal experience, statistics, or the experience of someone else who has worked in the system. You insist on ad hominem accusations of lying. Do you even get the point of a coffee room like this?

    #751877
    tryinghard
    Member

    Don’t know which PS your husband teaches in. The PS across my house… BAD! They have around 30 kids coming out at 3:00. Want to see wildlife safari, come visit. At 4:00, you can see the yiddish kids coming home from school (lehavdil) not a loud voice can be heard. If anybody ever touches the garbage can it is to make place for others. Not to throw a glass bottle (like the goyim).

    #751878
    Grandmaster
    Member

    tryinghard: Good point. There is no comparison to our holy tinokos shel bais rabban in Yeshiva to the vilda chayos in the PS. There is no comparison to our youth who shteig in Torah HaKedosha most of their school day to (l’havdil elef havdolos) those teaching and learning of how they descend from apes and share the same zaida as the gorillas after they finish distributing their c…..’s since abstinence is out of style.

    yichusdik: After painting with a broad brush against our tzadikim in the Yeshivos, based on some isolated examples from your alleged personal anecdotal evidence, you finally realize about “tarring all with the same brush” and “problems that apply to a small fraction of the schools” — but apply it only to PS and not Yiddishe kinder and rebbeim in our holy Yeshivos?

    Yes, yichusdik, being a member of the Am Hanivchar is a mark of aristocracy.

    #751879
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oh, and if the am hanivchar is superior on all levels in all regards across the board, why are we in golus, exactly?

    Do you think that being in golus is determined by how we compare to the nations?

    I don’t.

    #751880
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    In NYC students are only entitled to free rides through graduation from high school. As a college student I have to pay the same gouged price for the same awful service as everyone else. I usually walk or bike.

    Joseph: Your ignorance is amusing. Please keep it up.

    #751881
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Itch: If you have an issue with the Am Hanivchar, it is something you ought to work on.

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