October 19, 2009 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #669293telegrokMember
when my boys were in mesivtah they were permitted to wear only white shirts, but the boys in the yeshiva gedolah were permitted to wear colors as long as they (the colors) were “suitable business attire” (i.e., what Jothar referred to as Slobakain “conservative elegance”). The reasoning of the Hanhalah of the yeshiva was as follows – the yeshiva bochurim were taught that they must treat yeshiva with no less kavod than they would a business meeting, and in fact were encouraged, though not required, to also wear neckties to the beis medresh, i.e., like men who wear a suit to the office but remove the jacket, but still wear a tie and dress shirt throughout the day – the rationale made quiet an impression on visitors who would visit the yeshiva and see 100 guys in ties learning – it made an impression on the boys, too, they felt important and choshuv
the high school boys wearing white was a bit of a different, albeit related, rational – the rosh mesivta was raised in a strict European home where proper manners were emphasized, not only kavod for people but also table manners, etc – the mesivtah had a strict dress code – shirts tucked in, shoes polished – they did not care about designer labels but they wanted the boys to appear clean and well kept and to feel that they, too, were important – so the rosh mesivtah instituted “white shirts only” because he felt that they boys would be more careful to not stain a white shirt in the dining room because it would show more easily, and the high school rebbeim would send boys back to their dorm rooms to change if their shirt was spotted – by extension, the rosh mesivtah thought that would improve dining room manners since careful eating would be required to keep shirts clean – it worked, one would join the boys for Shabbos or a week dinner and one felt as if (quality of the food aside) one was at a business lunch the boys ate so nicely
the white shirt rule was suspended for the purim seudah for obvious reasonsOctober 19, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #669294mybatMember
Telegrok, thank you for sharing that. We could all learn something from your sons yeshiva.October 19, 2009 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #669295JosephParticipant
The purpose of the white shirt, hat, jacket is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars.October 19, 2009 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #669296hudMember
?? apparentally koma u read in2 thngs a bit muchOctober 19, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #669297hudMember
onlyemes-can u explain please?October 19, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #669298haifagirlParticipant
Telegrok: In order to preserve the anonymity here, I obviously can’t ask you for the name of your sons’ Rosh Mesivta. But if you could pass along kudos from me, I’d be most grateful. Since I became frum I have noticed a HUGE lack of table manners among the FFB community. It’s as if they never learned it. And that is one of my pet peeves.October 19, 2009 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #669299JotharMember
Joseph, how does dressing in conservative goyishe attire achieve lo shinu es malbusheihem? The davening jacket is a short jacket instead of a long reckel, which is why the German Jews were called Yekkes- wearing short jackets instead of long coats.October 19, 2009 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #669300
Haifa, forget the table manners, what about personal hygiene? Why do those who do shave do so only once a week? Why do so many black and white Yidden forget to use a deodorant? Are these “extra measures” to ensure that they aren’t similar to the secularists?October 19, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #669301Pashuteh YidMember
Are you allowed to carry a can of white spray paint and spray those who wear colored shirts?
BTW, there is a Mishna which says that if a baal tefila says I will only daven for the amud wearing white, we suspect him of being an apikorus, and he may not daven even if he wears colors. There never was any such mesora to wear white. I was always taught on Shabbos to wear white. Isn’t it a disgrace to Shabbos if we wear white during the week, as well?October 19, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #669302havesomeseichelMember
ronrsr- we’re on the same page… see my comment earlier about wearing colored shirts… 😉
To everyone else: why do people look down on those with colored shirts? I still do not understand the gashmiyus that our world has come to- we care about what someone wears rather than who they are. We might not always care about brand names but we label others based on simple things like colors!
Do the men have to buy a new shirt every few weeks because once it turns the slightest bit gray…gasp! They are wearing a different color than black and white!!!October 19, 2009 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #669303cherrybimParticipant
Joseph – “The purpose of the white shirt, hat, jacket is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars.”
You mean the manufacturers only make white shirts, hats and jackets for frum Yidden? Of course not.October 19, 2009 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #669304cantoresqMember
Cherry, in a word, yes. I never understood why so many yeshiva leit look so sloppy. Why can’t these boys ever introduce their shirts and trousers to an iron? Why can’t their shoes be polished and decently heeled? Granted not all yeshiva bochurim look like they slept in their clothes; some look positively rackish; good learners among them even. But what’s with the ones who look so farshleped? Conversly, I don’t understand non-yeshiva people or non-Jews who also go about looking like an unmade bed either. Sadly, some people don’t have a modicum of pride or respect for the world about them.October 19, 2009 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #669305oomisParticipant
Ther’s nothing wrong with colorful clothing. It was good enough for Yaakov Avinu to give his son. His only “mistake” was in showing favoritism to ONE child, not in giving him a colorful cloak. Had it been a white cloak made especially for Yosef, it would still have made his brothers jealous.
As long as a shirt and pants are neat and clean, people should be less concerned with their color than with the middos and integrity of the person wearing them.October 19, 2009 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #669306Just-a-guyMember
Cherrybim wrote: “Joseph – “The purpose of the white shirt, hat, jacket is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars.”
You mean the manufacturers only make white shirts, hats and jackets for frum Yidden? Of course not.”
Yes, they’re manufactured for others, but Joseph is right. Its rare these days that you see a gentile wearing a plain black suit with a white shirt. Dark, sure, but plain black, with no stripes or pattern, with a plain white shirt usually indicates a frum yid.
The kippah is usually a pretty good indicator too. 😉October 19, 2009 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #669307jewish and working 22Member
You are erroneous in your statement. Walk through the streets of Manhattan. If you deign to look at other individuals you will see that there are plenty of people in the corporate world who wear white shirts and plain black suits, and THEY AREN’T JEWISH (GASP).October 19, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #669308Just-a-guyMember
Jewishandworking22, I don’t know that your tone is necessary, but I walk through the streets of manhattan and the corporate world everyday and I do dein to look at other individuals who hardly ever wear a plain black suit- no stripes, no pattern, no nothing, and a plain white shirt.
Do goyim have white shirts and black or dark suits? Sure. Do they wear them in the same way as frum yidden? No. They accessorize, mix and match with colored shirts, ties, etc. There are hardly any goyim walking around in the yeshiva bochur uniform. Dark suits. Yes. White shirts, yes. An identifiable uniform- no.
Would you walk through BP and tell me you get confused that you’re in midtown manhattan with everyone looking like wall street executives?October 19, 2009 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #669309jewish and working 22Member
Just a guy:
I’m sorry my tone offends you, please don’t think that their is any malice.
Accessories? that is what you think differentiates between a bochur and an individual in the corporate world? Have you ever seen some of the shoes, ties, and belts that yeshiva bochurim wear when they are required to wear such articles of clothing? Accessories are the only thing that allow bochurim some individualism and leeway besides the required black and white. They are more ostentatious than that worn by most working individuals. That is the one area that the bochurim go all out. Next time you go to a siyum or a yeshiva function look around. You will see more colors and designs than you would see anywhere else.
If I was in BP of course I would not mistake myself to be in Manhattan. Only a handful of individuals in BP walk around in suits and clothing that would come close to matching an executives in Manhattan.
EDITEDOctober 19, 2009 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #669310
Even when BP denizens appear on Manhattan streets, especially in the vicinity of the 47th street, you can easily tell them apart.
EDITEDOctober 19, 2009 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #669311mybatMember
Isn’t this lashon hara against the BPers?
EDITEDOctober 19, 2009 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #669312YW Moderator-80Member
Could be, mybat.October 20, 2009 3:57 am at 3:57 am #669313tamazaballMember
i agree my batOctober 20, 2009 4:05 am at 4:05 am #669314ronrsrMember
BP = Boro Park?October 20, 2009 4:39 am at 4:39 am #669315
Is anyone aware of a Yesgiva that has MANDATED as part of the Yeshiva Dress Code, that bachurim MUST wear white shirts, and no other color?October 20, 2009 5:19 am at 5:19 am #669316JaxMember
ronrsr: yes your learning fast buddy!October 20, 2009 8:15 am at 8:15 am #669317stonerMember
lashon hara and bp has nothing to do with the topic people.October 20, 2009 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #669318Daniel BreslauerMember
I wear white 95% of the time (actually more). Sometimes chassidish (right-over-left), sometimes normal.
I do occasionally wear colored shirts, on occasions such as:
* right after Pesach and Sukkos, when there is a huge amount of laundry waiting and I don’t have any clean white shirts left
* during and after the Nine Days – see above
* for trips/vacations: colored shirts get dirty less quickly, and the ones I have are a lot stronger also, so better suited for wearing large, heavy backpacks (which I wear a lot on hiking trips)
I have one blue shirt, one light blue Air Force shirt, and two light brown Army shirts. All just plain simple shirts. Bought the latter three at a surplus store a few years ago because they’re good-looking and yet very strong, they don’t get destroyed by wearing them with a backpack.October 20, 2009 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #669319truthsharerMember
jphone, yes, Yeshivah Torah Vodaas (of all places!) has stated that all HS bachurim must wear white shirts.October 20, 2009 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #669320
Lakewood Cheder mandates white only from SIXTH GRADE up!!!! Quite insane, actually….October 20, 2009 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #669321WolfishMusingsParticipant
Blue and grey is one thing but i noticed pink and purple too!
Just about every button-down shirt that I own is one of two colors:
This has been my personal style for years. On Shabbos/Yom Tov (or to special occasions — weddings, job interviews, etc.) I wear white, while during the rest of the week I wear blue.
Then, one day, I was walking through Macy’s looking for new shirts I found a purple shirt that caught my eye. I brought it home and showed it to my wife — and she was wondering who I was and what I did with her husband. I still have the purple shirt and wear it on occasions with the other weekday shirts.
However, you’d never catch me dead in a pink shirt. 🙂
The WolfOctober 20, 2009 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #669322mepalMember
Of course not. You’ll be in starched-white tachrichim then.October 20, 2009 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #669323squeakParticipant
good one, mepalOctober 20, 2009 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #669324WolfishMusingsParticipant
Of course not. You’ll be in starched-white tachrichim then.
Well, I won’t have the tachrichim until AFTER I’m dead (hopefully). And I figure that I’ll probably be wearing *something* at the time that I actually do die. And it won’t be a pink shirt. 🙂
The WolfOctober 20, 2009 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #669325I can only tryMember
makes such a scene
Quick, hide that thing, silly, silly
in La MachineOctober 20, 2009 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #669326
So, the YWN research comittee has come back with only TWO yeshivos that have a “white shirt only” policy. Why is it then, that almost every boy in every yeshiva (even those where presumably there is no such policy) wears a white shirt? Why dont the other yeshivos have such a policy? If it is so pashut that a policy is not necessary, why did these two Yeshivos institute such policies?October 20, 2009 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #669327JosephParticipant
So bloggers should have something to make a tumult about.October 20, 2009 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #669328komaMember
not read in too much hud, just a t-w-i-s-t-e-d sense of humor. In all seriousness, there have been hints dropped perhaps unknowingly in the string of posts pointing to a swing of attitude against individualism and toward uniformity. It is evidenced in the Hassidishe levush, in our girls wearing school uniforms, in women more and more dressing in all black. There are obviously good things to some of this, but the question is where is this all comming from? The stock answer for some is the “famous” maamar “zchus gimel devareim nigalu…. Now this is quoted in seven placed in Medrash and Sifri, as bzchus 4 devarim. In the lists of four, there is no mention of malbush. Only in one, psikda zutrasi,is it three things and one is malbush. Logically, the list of four is a stronger mesorah, than a list of three with a radical value. As so, it is wrongly abused, because someone somwhere obviously changed. We did not have recklach and peos in mitzrayim as some hasidic 2nd grade workbooks would have u believe. There was a precursor to the western trousers and suit jacket, as there was to the hasidic levush. So the push to some idealized model is worrisome because it is not based on emes. The move of the Yeshivish Sfardi crowd to the black package with fedora is also a serious deviation from the ways of their fathers. A teirutz may be that a chacham is enjoined to dress in a “beged na’eh v’naki. Na’eh changess with time and place and can also mean the very reverse of uniformity. Naki was adressed in posts above.October 20, 2009 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #669329
When there was a ????? in Poland to change the levush the chadishei Horim paskened yeherag val yavor.October 20, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #669330tzippiMember
Re the gezaira in Poland: What exactly was the gezaira? What levush was being changed? Who was proposing to change it, and why? Who had established the levush?
I don’t know if this is perfectly analogous to the colored shirt debates, especially in families or communities that don’t have the mesorah of levush.October 20, 2009 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #669331rabbiofberlinParticipant
to says who; actually, there were differences of opinion even amongst the chassdim. I imagine you are referring to a “gezeirah” in the 1850’s (that is EIGHTEEN hundred and fifties-in the secualr calendar)by the then russian governemt no to wear certain clothkng (I cannot quite remember the actual details)if my memory serves me correctly, the chidushei Harim (gur) was for stadning fast while other rebebs were for compromise. Maybe someoen can check in on google or elsewhere.October 20, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #669332
The Kotzker rebbe didn’t agree with the chadishei HorimOctober 20, 2009 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #669333areivimzehlazehParticipant
This thread currently reads as follows: Men Wearing Colored Shirts says who
😉October 20, 2009 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #669334
Even amongst chassidim, arent the styles different? Is the stamar hat (no idea what its called) the same as one worn by a bobover? streimel, spudik, hats for chabad. white socks, black socks (and no socks for the bahamian chassidim), knickers for some pants for others. boots for the skverer chassidim shoes for everyone else (except the Bahamians who wear flip flops). the only similarity (and there are many exceptions here to) are the colors, black and white, for the most part.
The kohein Gadol wore gold and blue (rebbes bekeshes are these colors to – and no, I am not trying to sound like dr seuss), why are these colors off limits to yeshiva bachurim?October 20, 2009 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #669335
When your comment was posted it wasn’t “currently”.maybe now it’s back until..October 20, 2009 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #669336aaryd621Participant
i think that anyone who thinks purple or pink shirts should be assur should rethink their priorities!October 20, 2009 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #669337
A friend of mine was getting married 20 years ago, and wished to purchse a tish bekeshe for Shabbos use. He isn’t one bit Chasidish, but wanted a nice silk-alike garment to enhance his Shabbos table. The bekeshe store in BP absolutely refused to sell him any but the black ones. When asked as to why he cannot buy a blue or a golden one, he was told, as if it was some Halacha L’Moshe miSinai, that ONLY rebbes are allowed to wear those. When he asked as to who exactly can be called a rebbe, he was answered that you have to either have a chasidus or at least be a rebbeshe einikel. This made no sense then, and makes even less sense now. And yes, the story is true; I went to the store with him to help him choose something that would NOT make him look like a chusid to his wife.October 21, 2009 3:46 am at 3:46 am #669338JotharMember
Sammygol, LOL!October 21, 2009 5:46 am at 5:46 am #669339JaxMember
sammygol: now that’s a winner!October 21, 2009 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #669340cantoresqMember
Are there gradations? For those who look askance at colored shirts, do certain colors connote greater or lesser depravity (i.e. blue is more “moral” than lavendar, which is better than pink etc.), or are all colors equally suspect? Are patterns like stripes or checks (my preference is for checkered drench cuffed shirts) better or worse than solid colors? Which patterns are better from a frum point of view? What about contrasting white collars and cuffs? Are certain collars more Jewishly acceptable (i.e. the straight collar is preferance to spread collar etc.). Is there a “frummer fabric?” Is silk acceptable? How about linen shirts? Wool? While poly/cotton blends are less expensive and may even wear longer than all cotton, might they not symbolically violate the spirit of the issur kilayim? Is a no iron shirt better since it frees up time for learning? Sartorial frumkeit is so daunting!!!October 21, 2009 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #669341cherrybimParticipant
The last Lubavitcher Rebbe instructed his chasidem to have kapatas made exclusively of natural fibers.October 21, 2009 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #669342noitallmrParticipant
For many years I’ve always wanted to wear an evening shirt, you know the shirt the has a tiny collar going up and frills in the middle??? But what can I do…it’s not part of the dress code!!!
And my wardrobe of pink shirts looking like the setting sun, is all in the garbage due to this thread…boohooo 🙁
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