- This topic has 55 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
People started posting in the limerick thread about such mistakes so lets start a thread about this important issue
If you wrote it already there yo can rewrite it in this thread- thank you
Oh boy.. my favorite topic…
I hate going to certain shuls cause all you do is watch ppl doing teh wrong things..
It happens a lot in the ezras nahsim cause they have the catching up issues often.
1. If you are in middle of Sh’E and the chazzan is saying kaddish you must stop your Sh’E.
Rifka with the f is an Anglicized version.
OK, here’s mine:
When you have a word that ends with a Heh and there is a patach under the Heh, the *PATACH IS PRONOUNCED FIRST* (just like a ches).
The word right in Ezras Avosainu (????????????? ) is not U-Mag-Bi-Ha. It’s U-Mag-Bi-AH (with a mapik heh).
Many ba’alei tefillah make the same mistake in Hallel with the Shem HaShem.
The Wolf
Rifka with the f is an Anglicized version.
No, Rifka is the “lazy” version since both the /f/ and /v/ sounds are fricatives. The /f/ however is unvoiced whereas the /v/ is voiced. People sometimes take the “shortcut” and don’t voice the consonant.
The Wolf
noti thank you
i didnt know that
as far as I know you do not say it if you ae in middle of Shma (brachos ncl) and you wait..
Another goodie — word grouping:
In A’anim Z’miros, the following line exists:
??????? ??????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ??????? ??? ????????????
The proper reading is to group the first three words together. Far too many people, seeing eight words and having a tune with four “passages*” per line, see fit to put two words to each “passage.” That changes the meaning dramatically.
The Wolf
* Using the word “passage” out of sheer ignorance. If anyone knows the correct musical term, feel free to point it out.
that is veryvery strange – i have asked and been told that only if you are up to elokai netzor in shemoneh esrai can you say y’hyu l’ratzon and they say kedusha or kaddish – as a matter of fact i believe it says so in my siddur instructions
seeal
you misunderstood
noti said you should stop SE during Kaddish, not that you should answer
just like Kedushah you must stop saying SE but you dont say anything, ive been told you should rise up on your toes at the appropriate times though
another grouping error for wolf
in the shir shel yom i forget which day
it is usually pronounced in a grouping way to say: from a honey-rock i will sate you
tzoor-dvash asbeyachah
thank moderator – i now see noti’s comment- i was referring to blinky note where it says ‘say it too’ –
in modim anachnu lach – i was used to saying a segel under the ahin in sheh-ah-tuh, and someone once pointed out to me that it is a kumatz – Shaw Ah Taw
As well you are suppoed to cover your eyes as if you are saying shma if that’s where the kehilla is holding.. Even if you are behind. Otherwise it may look like you do not believe that haShem is Echad CV!
i forget which day
That would be Thursday.
Here’s an even better one for you (although, admittedly, it’s not from davening).
One Tisha B’Av, I was listening to someone lain Aicha. He got to the passuk at 2:20:
????? ?????? ???????????, ????? ?????????? ????: ???-??????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?????????, ???-??????? ???????????? ??????? ?????? ????????.
The translation (JPS) for this passuk is as follows:
See, O LORD, and consider, to whom Thou hast done thus! Shall the women eat their fruit, the children that are dandled in the hands? Shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord?
The tipcha in the second half of the passuk is on the word Ad-noy.” As a result, the proper word grouping is “B’Mikdash Ad-noy, Kohen V’Navi.”
The person laining began to put the tipcha on the word “mikdash” — putting the grouping as “B’Mikdash, Ad-noy Kohen V’Navi” – completely changing the meaning to something blasphemous. Fortunately, he realized his error and corrected himself before he got to the next word. 🙂
The Wolf
WOLF,
The ‘dikduk’ative term for this is a PATACH GENUVA.
It applies to the letters ayin, ches, & hay b’sof hamila,
with a patach.
Common examples are Mizbeach, Noach, Sheyismamay-AH in Ani Maamin, and, (of course, the most commonly mispronounced one) Meelifney Elo-AH Yaakov in Hallel.
Please everybody- MAKE SURE and absolutely sure you’re info is correct before posting. These Halachos are complicated and very important so you wanna make sure you’re not giving over wrong info to people.
PATACH GENUVA.
Yeah, I knew that. However, I find that if you start getting too technical, people’s eyes begin to glaze over*, so I try to avoid such terms when possible.
(of course, the most commonly mispronounced one) Meelifney Elo-AH Yaakov in Hallel.
That’s the one I was referring to in my previous post. 🙂
The Wolf
* You’d be amazed that I can see eyes glaze over through a message board. 🙂
I find that if you start getting too technical, people’s eyes begin to glaze over*, so I try to avoid such terms when possible.
oh yeah, right
both the /f/ and /v/ sounds are fricatives.
😉
Rivka does not appear in davening ever.
Ok, but if we’ve branched into laining mistakes;
By the yud gimmel midos, the pause goes after vayikara b’shem, before “Hashem”. The meaning is that Moshe called out with the name, saying “Hashem!”
But my favorite is in Lamenatzeach. For probably 15 years, I was saying “bshem hashem elokeinu nigdol”. The word is “nidgol” which means to wave banners.
oh yeah, right
both the /f/ and /v/ sounds are fricatives.
😉
🙂 — okay so I’m not consistently consistent. 🙂
The Wolf
WOLF,
You may have a point there.
I wonder why I’m thinking of doughnuts now…
It applies to the letters ayin, ches, & hay b’sof hamila,
with a patach.
The way I pronounce ayin, I don’t see how it will make a difference.
The way I pronounce ayin, I don’t see how it will make a difference.
To me, that’s further proof that the proper way to pronounce the ayin is with a sound.
The Wolf
And besides, what word ends with an ayin with a patach beneath it?
never mind, shamua ben zakur
Shomeia
Still, even the way the Temanim and loony ashkenazim pronounce ayin, how does it make a difference if the patach is after or with the sound?
Do you say “ahh” and then make nasal noise?
By Modim, in Shmoneh Esrei, a lot of people say sheatah (with a segol) instead of shuatah (with a kumatz).
Probably the most common are the “word groupings”. Here are some:
Lcha anu shira bsimcha rabba. V’am’ru chulam.
Ze keili anu–va’mru
Bal’ma d’vra kirusei. vyamlich malchusei bchayeichon….
Shochen ad, marom vqaddosh shmo (debatable)
qedusha kulam k’echad onim, vom’rim biyira.
As for nusach, unless you’re chasidic, shabbos mincha should be like weekday untill after kedusha…same for r”h mincha.
Kaddish before maaric s”e follows mode of rest of davening…on friday night, kaddish doesn’t have the same tune as the birchos k”s (I think it’s like shacharis of shabbos).
Remember the modes! Kel adon should be in minor.
Make sure tunes are appropriate and fit.
You can often see severely organized people fall into the following trap: Open talis bag, remove talis, remove tefillin, once everything out out (arranged of course) on the table, they take the talis to put it on. This violates ain maavirim al hamitzvos. The same applies where the person honored with pesicha lifts one sefer and then is directed to take a different sefer. There are also grammar/nikud/punctuation peculiarities in Nusach Ashkenaz on which I can’t comment as a chashud bedavar. My mesorah is to correct them.
Poppa bar: I wouldn’t term it “looney Ashkenazim”. Differential between alef and ayin are referenced in S.A.
“Rivka doesn’t appear in davening ever”
Rivka appears in the misheberach for women, in the bracha for children, and in crossword style in the second column third letter place in the yomin noraim arrangement of ‘bfi yeshorim, in bold type in the older mahzorim.
Poppa bar: I wouldn’t term it “loony Ashkenazim”. Differential between alef and ayin are referenced in S.A.
The Shulachan aruch was written by Rabbi Yosef Caro, who was a sfardi.
Any Ashkenazi who says uses temani pronunciation is indeed loony.
I’ve seen this in almost every shul:
1) By hoitzo’as sefer Torah, one or more people repeat “Gadlu la’H-shem iti” after the chazan
2) When the sefer Torah is returned, some people repeat “Yehalilu es shem H-shem” after the chazan.
The above occurs so often, I wonder if there was some old minhag to daven this way.
How about these?
A shliach tzibbur who says “ga’al yisrael” in an undertone. It shoud be recited out loud.
I’ve seen too many people daven for the amud and not say the whole “Modim” out loud. Same for “Mogain Avos” on Friday night.
Blockhead-
You’re way off base in terms of nusach. MOST people correctly use the nusach of Shabbos Mincha for Avos as well. The kaddish before S”E Friday night is not at all like the kaddish before Barchu on Shabbos morning.
The only thing you are correct about is Avos on RH. It raises my BP when a guy starts doing Avos by Mincha on R”H (or Y”K) like the Avos for Shachris and Mussaf (which, btw, most people are clueless as to the proper nusach. Unfortunately, nussach is a dying art and I shudder to think of how the next generation will sound on R”H and Y”K).
As the gabbai in my minyan, if you are ever in my neighborhood and I ask if you are a ba’al tefilah, please say “no”.
in Vayomer in krias shema we say- Lman Tizkeri- make sure not to say it Lman TiSkeri.
In Shema, the common way I have seen children taught is “vi-aHAvta”. The correct way is “VI-ahavTA”. There is a difference in meaning between the two, and I was told one is not yotzei if one reads it the wrong way.
The common way of singing Adol Olam and Yigdal also have many mistaken emphases.
For example, “nosein larasha ra, kirishaso” should really be “nosein larasha, ra kirishaso”. Translated, “…He gives to the bad wicked one, like his wickedness” is incorrect. It should be (forgive the rough translation) “…He gives to the wicked one, ‘bad’ like his wickedness”.
And many others if you simply listen as they are sung.
Not to mention that the whole havara of many of these tunes including the ones for Anim Zemiros is almost completely incorrect as the songs typically emphasize the first syllable as is typical of American English instead of the last syllable of lihavdil Lashon Hakodesh; often, the meaning is changed and is still incorrect regardless of whether or not it actually changes the meaning of each word.
Someone’s got to redo all these tunes.
papa_bar_abba; The mistake in La Menatzeach of “Nigdol” instead of “Nidgol” is similar to “L’Havdil”, certain people pronouncing “Ax” instead of “Ask”. But with a certain segment of the population pronouncing it the wrong way, it has become part of the culture.
Yanky55 says:
You’re way off base in terms of nusach. MOST people correctly use the nusach of Shabbos Mincha for Avos as well.
Actually, you’re way off base according to what I learned, and I learned nusach from a well repsected Rav who learned it in pre-Chorban Europe. He quite emphatically said – many times – the correct nusach for Shabbat mincha is used for Kaddish before the Amidah, and picks up again with Ata Kadosh (nusach Sefard) or L’dor va’dor (nusach Ashkanaz). It is not used for Avot.
I learned nusach from my father who is a well respected Yid and grew up in pre-war Europe. He told me it was used for Avos wherever he davened….
“If the chazzan is saying kedusha i think you have to stop whatever you are doing and say it too- even if you are in middle of shemona esrei (i think i once learnt that)”
Not true. One may NOT interrupt S”E to answer Kedusha, unless he or she is holding in the last paragraph (Elokai Netzor).
However, if a person recites the silent Amidah and, as he completes the Beracha of “Mechayei Ha’meitim,” he hears a congregation in a different Minyan (or even his own minyan) reciting kedusha, he should recite kedusha together with them.
“noti said you should stop SE during Kaddish, not that you should answer
just like Kedushah you must stop saying SE but you dont say anything, ive been told you should rise up on your toes at the appropriate times though”
There is no such halacha (about rising on one’s toes).
“A shliach tzibbur who says “ga’al yisrael” in an undertone. It shoud be recited out loud.”
It’s complicated.
Not true. One may NOT interrupt S”E to answer Kedusha, unless he or she is holding in the last paragraph (Elokai Netzor).
That’s true. However, s/he should stop reciting S”E and listen to the kedusha until its completion before returning to his/her recitation.
The Wolf
S/he should listen to Kadosh… and Baruch… Possibly also Yimloch…. Other parts of kedusha s/he doesn’t have to listen to. One may continue davening in between these verses.
If s/he cannot hear the chazzan saying the verses of Kedusha (the chazzan is not loud enough), then just continue davening.
when you say birchas hashachar quickly-as most of us do- instead of saying melech HAolam (king of the world) the person the person says melech cholam (dreamer of the world) thus attaching the two cheses in every bracha over & over again.
& look at what the words end up meaning? for 15 times
melech cholam doesn’t mean dreamer of the world.
(I don’t think cholam is a word at all, for that matter.)
I don’t think cholam is a word at all, for that matter.
It’s the vowel that makes the long o (or oy, if you will) sound.
The Wolf
Very important is to say in Kaddish ‘Yisgadal V’yisKadash’ and not chas vesholom ‘V’yisGadash’ which is a profanity! Also, to say ‘Baal Gevuros’ and not Bal gevuros’ which means the opposite! (i.e. Not that H-shem is master of, but the opposite! Chas vesholom).
When a shliach tzibur says gaal yisrael quietly its usually because u arent supposed to say a/t between gaal yisrael and SE not even amen so they dont want any accidents
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.