COVID VACCINE FOR CHILDREN
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- This topic has 120 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 10 months ago by 2scents.
June 1, 2021 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1979242
Now that many doctors offices are gearing up to vaccinate the kids, do you think this is a good idea?June 1, 2021 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1979253ParticipantParticipant
I don’t understand the need for it.June 1, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1979332Sam KleinParticipant
It’s bad for their health and also on a separate note totally unnecessary.
Do the proper research and see for yourself.June 1, 2021 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1979367
@Same-Klein My research consists of asking my doctor, pediatrician, and doctors I know. If they say it’s important, then I listen to them. If they would say it’s bad for their health, I would listen to them.June 1, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1979425
there are several things you might consider, a couple for your
1) what would be the case level in US in the fall. It is going down right now, thankfully, similar to UK, and 20 times larger than Israel. Will it continue going down? New factors for that: UK had an increase due to Indian variant. Vaccination doses in US fell down from 1% daily to 0.4% and continue decreasing (thanks, Biden’s valiant efforts!). At current rates, we are at least 4 months behind Israel on total doses.
2) how likely your kids will get COVID, especially a large dose. If they will stay without social distancing and ventilation and case level among mostly unvaccinated kids will not decrease – reasonably high
3) this one for the doctor – what are risks for your kid from COVID and from vaccineJune 1, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1979427June 1, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1979475BaalHaboozeParticipant
@Yserbius123, I hear your words and think you are a noble, intelligent person. I, too, thought that way until my kids suffered from adverse effects of a vaccine many years ago. Vaccines are amazing and work very very well. Most of the time. But not all the time. The problem is we don’t know who it will be good for and for whom it will not deal well with. I think the attitude of ‘Well if my doctor says it’s good then it is good for me’ is an old-fashioned misplaced trust
That was true when doctors of old healed their patience with herbs and natural heathy ingredients. When the big Pharma companies are now supplying the unnatural, sometimes toxic, drug doses that doctors distribute to their patients, caution must be applied. I’m not saying not to take the vaccines or stuff, all I’m saying is use your common sense, and speak it over with people who are knowledgeable in this area to get some sense of what to do.
Maybe you’ll get good advice like:
Let’s see what happens in a couple months, then we’ll revisit if we should get this or not.
or, Did you know these COVID vaccines aren’t even FDA approved and are on a trial basis.
or, Why should kids get the vaccine if COVID it’s not even dangerous for them? Besides don’t we all have something naturally better by Hashem Himself – antibodies!
Again, make your own decision.
Doctors by the way, took years and years to get their degrees, won’t necessarily tell you what’s right but what they were taught in university. Vaccines=HealthyJune 1, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1979483
checkout Dr Byram Bridle’s interview about the covid vaccine with Alex pearson. you can google itJune 1, 2021 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1979566Amil ZolaParticipant
I wonder how many parents today would have chosen for their children to have received the Salk vaccine like many of our parents did. Critics of that vaccine claimed that it was insufficiently tested and the testing was flawed.June 1, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1979573
I spoke to 2 pediatricians. They both clearly did not research this vaccine at all. They did not even research covid. One told me so. The other it was obvious. This is not a time where the truth is known. The truth about these vaccines is slowly coming out, but it’s still really not known unless you spend hours upon hours on it like I do. Its best to wait and be cautious because once you vaccinate you can never undo it.June 1, 2021 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1979572MindfulParticipant
Doctors just follow the protocol they are told to follow by cdc. They have absolutely zero education about vaccines. How can you trust a doctor on a vaccine that has not been studied?
This is sad that people wash their hands off the responsibility for their children, and their own selves, and just have others make personal decisions for them.June 2, 2021 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1979585
here are some numbers that can be a starting point to help you make a deicsion or discuss with the doctor. Disclaimer: I just know numbers, medicine is not my area of expertise, so please double-check the information.
General CDC stats: children have 2x less cases that 30-40 y.o, 10x less hospitalization, 50x less mortality.
Now, specific to vaccine risks, the one major risk discovered so far is myocarditis in younger population:
Risk of myocarditis in teens/young adults after Pfizer vaccine: 5 per million after 1st dose, 25 per million after second dose. Higher rates for pre-existing conditions and younger age. [Israeli data]
Risk of myocarditis for children when infected by COVID: 0.1-0.3%, or 1000-3000 per mln. [multiple papers] And about same number of other similar complications. Total hospitalizations among children: 2,600 per mln.
So, roughly if the child is in an environment where his cumulative risk of getting sick w/ COVID is 1%, then his myocarditis risk is 1% of 1000 (3000) = 10-30 per mln – about same as of the vaccine.
How likely the kid to be in 1%? CDC estimates that 40% of children were already infected in 13 months (until March 2021). That is 3% per month.
Things are getting better. Month of May was ~5x safer than previous ones. So, an average kid may have 1% risk in 2-3 months going forward. So, it matters if the kid will be in a risky environment – high-density school, no ventilation, community with low vaccinate rates among both adults and children and international travel, or in a safe environment, like home/online school with responsible adults.
Some emerging ideas:
– do an antibody test before vaccination
– do one vaccine dose [Israelis are considering that]
– wait for end of trials that are testing lower doses for smaller children
– wait for more information available next couple of months before the school year startsJune 2, 2021 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1979800
I mean, a lot of what you are all saying makes some sort of sense. There’s definitely less of a need for kids to get COVID vaccinated than adults. But I still disagree with one major point. I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet. Otherwise, why go to a doctor at all?June 2, 2021 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1979824shomershabbatParticipant
To Yserbius123: We trust doctors because of their years of study and training in the medical field. COVID-19 was not in the curriculum in Medical School. Trusting your doctor on issues of new diseases is like trusting a coffee shop to make you a steak. They might know how to make the best coffee but you can’t make steak out of coffee beans. Unfortunately, many doctors misjudged and misguided people during Covid which has caused many people to be niftar wrongly R”L. Many cases known personally.June 2, 2021 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1979823shomershabbatParticipant
Have you read the first hand stories of children that became paralyzed from the vaccine? And the reported cases of heart inflammation in teenagers? And female hormones going crazy in addition to causing stillborns, miscarriages, rapid heart racing and blood clots. It’s all on the web. Just do your research like you do before buying your car. Need I say more?June 2, 2021 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1979853
> And the reported cases of heart inflammation in teenagers?
See statistics above. It is very easy to get distracted by a spectacular case. This is not a consumer case complaining about late delivery by Amazon/Fauci/doctors … it is an ongoing pandemic that killed millions of people. Try to make a reasonable informed decision. You just happened to be on a Facebook feed about vaccines, but not about Covid. Maybe go visit a COVID ward and then compare with what you heard about vaccines, or review the numbers I posted above.
> I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet
Yserbius, first it depends on a doctor. some have a trusted knowledgeable one, some have a random graduate of a random medical school.
2nd, ask them what they base their decisions on. A good doctor will be able to discuss his reasoning.
3rd, decision may depend on your personal preferences. The doctor may assume that your kid needs vaccine to attend wild parties. Tell him that your kid sits by himself and learns, and conclusion may be different. Also, decision point is not to – take or not take vaccine, but take a vaccine now or delay a decision by 1-2 months when more information will be available.June 3, 2021 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1980087
@shomershabbat I haven’t heard any firsthand stories of major issues directly related to vaccinations. It’s always “a friend of a friend” or a screenshot of a Facebook page. But I do know of many firsthand stories of major issues that people had from COVID, including children or people who got it from children. “Just do the research” and “All on the web” are nariche statements. I have read these websites that claim to show the research. I don’t trust them. Especially since so many of them are so anti-Semitic. Look I’m not saying we need to start lining up infants to get the shot immediately, but if you’re giving me tzvei tzdadim of a pshat, one from a doctor who I literally trust with my life, and one from some random website on the Internet, it’s not a shayloh who’s word I’ll take.
Also, and this goes for @Always_Ask_Questions too, my doctor didn’t actually tell me anything yet and I haven’t yet asked. But whatever she says, I will take very seriously into account when making my decision. And I will double check with other experts. My town is zocheh to have a team of doctors who have been tirelessly researching COVID and advising the local Va’ad and all the Yeshivos on their decisions. So it’s not just “some med school graduate” nor are they “misguided”. They are literally devoting hours every day to investigating and reading the literature on COVID and the vaccines. So yeah, I trust them.June 3, 2021 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1980110besalelParticipant
shomershabbat: i agree 10000% with your comment.
As for the vaccines, I do not seriously fear them for my kids but I really do not see the point of having healthy children vaccinated for a disease that does not affect healthy children. There is virtually zero risk to children from COVID and those who are at risk are getting vaccinated.
All of my children have always been up to date on all vaccines but I just do not see any medical benefit in having healthy children vaccinated against Covid.
Now, there may be social benefits to having the kids vaccinated and since i do not fear the vaccines I most likely will have them vaccinated if that’s the only way we can fly without masks or get into certain countries or venues but from a medical standpoint I really do not see the need at all.June 3, 2021 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1980132sarirayParticipant
I know plenty of adults who had covid bad
No children . Including my immune compromised niece who was exposed directly not once but three times. So I’m pretty confident Covid has little to no risk for kids. I am not confident however, that the vaccine is safe. Evidence is mounting that it may not be. So if you weigh the risk to benefits logically you may not want to experiment upon your children with a brand new vaccine that has no long term safety data.June 3, 2021 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1980166
Yserbius. I am not discounting your doctors at all. I am just saying just because someone has an MD, is not sufficient to be viewed an expert on an emerging threat. Back to Meir Twersky’s last year letter – he said similarly that on a regular case we can ask one doctor, in a new uncertain case, we should ask several and take the safest of all. Except here we can’t take the safest approach as it is a trade-off between two risks.June 3, 2021 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1980193
It’s not a trade-off between two risks. You could give your kids ivermectin. You could take it yourself. There are lots of things listed on the c19protocols website. In any case, how many cases of COVID do you know of currently? You could afford to wait a few months and see what information emerges. First it was the blood clots, then the myocarditis, now they’re saying the spike proteins are potentially getting in the organs. Why can’t people wait?June 4, 2021 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1980260
תניא ר’ יהודה אומר דור שבן דוד בא …והאמת נעדרת
In the generation that Moshiach comes…the truth will be lacking.
We’ve seen all the lies these past 15+ months. Doctors no longer do research, they just parrot what they’re told and paid by the insurance companies to dole out vaccines.
Don’t be sheep.June 4, 2021 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1980271
“and paid by the insurance companies to dole out vaccines.”
Why would the insurance companies pay for a vaccine that at best doesnt work and at worst causes people to get sicker (forcing them to pay more). Seems like a lose lose?June 4, 2021 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1980276
Insurance companies look at the “big picture” and they are likely subsidized by government to give out the vaccines. This is for general vaccines. You can look up the rules for each insurance company. They pay doctors a bonus if they give 10 vaccines per child for 85%+ of their patients.
On a macro scale, yes, maybe this covid vaccine works or at least doesn’t do harm. On an individual level however, there are significant risks that far outweigh the benefits IMHO, especially for children who are barely affected by the virus.June 4, 2021 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1980293
“They pay doctors a bonus if they give 10 vaccines per child for 85%+ of their patients.”
Yes becasue it saves them money. vaccinating against polio is cheaper than paying for treatment of Polio and its sequalea same for Measles, Mumps even chicken Pox.
“On a macro scale, yes, maybe this covid vaccine works or at least doesn’t do harm. On an individual level however, there are significant risks that far outweigh the benefits IMHO”
It isnt clear to me how you made this distinction. The individual doesnt know which group he is in (ie those who Would get Covid and do poorly vs those who get covid and would do well or for that matter those who Get the vaccine and have minimal/no side effects vs those who have significant side effects) .
I don’t know about children , which is why I didnt reply to this thread .
I am trying to understand thewhat you view as the motivation behind pushing vaccines
You said doctors don’t do research they just do it because they are getting paid (not a verabtim quote) .
so why are the insurance companies paying?
You give 2 (possible?) reasons :
1) The vaccine works “on a macro scale” (or at least the insurance company thinks it does)
2) “they are likely subsidized by government to give out the vaccines”
IF #1 Great! whats the problem.
if #2 that just shifts the question:
why is the government paying to give out vaccines?June 4, 2021 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1980294
This lack of truth in the world is so true! @kollelman can you please tell me where to look on the internet for the information about financial incentives from insurance companies? thank youJune 4, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1980307
Guys, you need to get some numbers to make a conclusion. When you are saying, I don’t know kids who got dangerously sick from covid, what does that mean: out of 100? 1000? Do you know whether there’s long-term minor damage?
And when you say, there are complications from vaccine, is it 1 in 10,000?
I am not saying one way or another, but you are making conclusion based on feelings
As to the current virus level, USA is 30x more than Israel. Also remaining virus circulates among unvaccinated groups such as teens, who communicate with each other.June 9, 2021 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1981412
It boggles my mind that people ignore the advice of countless Rabbonim, askanim, doctors, epidemiologists, politicians, and other experts because of random things they found on some shady corner of the Internet. Why does Joe Hutzenputz’s crummy video of random news clips and poor audio have more ne’emanus than literally anyone with any authority on the subject?June 15, 2021 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1983194
Since we’re living in a world that has the truth literally hiding (Ha’emes Ne’ede’res’) – Rabbonim, Askonim and many others have been acting out of actual panic and without proper evaluation of the situation required of a Beis Din. The FDA did not properly vet the vaccine, and nobody can confirm its reliability or safety. The same FDA and CDC that pushed this vaccine at “warp speed” denied usage of medicines that were deemed safe for over 60 years and are used over the counter in many countries worldwide. Do you trust those people? Are those the experts we’ll base Halacha on? I surely hope not. How about the CEO of Pfizer who told Fauci about the vaccine being ready before the November election, but refused to announce it until after the election, lest Trump benefit from the announcement. It’s. All. Politics. You. Are. Being. Played.
The Lancet (the most highly regarded medical journal in the world) published an article in April showing the vaccine is delivering actual results of 1-2% reduction in transmission. This entire virus/weapon has been hyped beyond our wildest comprehension and China is laughing all the way to the bank.
I won’t deny the virus is real – I was sick in bed with fever for 3 weeks and could barely move. What’s criminal is the denial of life-saving medicines that already exist; starving and dehydrating people to death in hospital rooms because nurses (Riiiight, let’s make a parade for “front-line workers”) wouldn’t tend to patients. There are abundant stories from first-hand accounts – people who died and were found with notes in their pockets where they wrote how they are dying of thirst and being abandoned and ignored.
I’ll pose this simply – if one dies or is seriously injured by the vaccine will they receive any compensation from any insurance company? Will life insurance pay? No, they will deny, and have already denied any claims, citing that the vaccine is experimental. That’s all you need to know. If anyone wants to take an experimental DNA modifying drug to possibly prevent a 0.001% chance of dying, good luck to them. All the more so children, who have not been affected at ALL from this virus. I’ll stick with Sofek u’voday, ein Sofek motzi mi’dei voday – the risk of the vaccine causing injury of any kind is higher than the risk of the virus which a person may not necessarily contract. And if a person already got the virus, taking the vaccine is just propaganda to the max – denying Hashem’s ability to give us natural immunity that is far superior than any man-made vaccine.June 15, 2021 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1983265
kollelman, you are 100% right.June 15, 2021 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1983405
@kollelman mRNA vaccines do not modify the body’s DNA. They are messenger RNA molecules, not DNA modifications.June 15, 2021 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1983449
kollelman has some interesting ideas, but he can not be 100% right because he is mis-interpreting 1-2% numbers in Lancet article paragraph 2. Paragraph 3 explains that ARR = 1% means that vaccinating 100 people will prevent one case of COVID _during_ the study period. ARR for the same vaccine is higher when virus is prevalent and lower when it is not, and real benefits continue well past the time of the study. When you understand these numbers, you just need to weigh risks of COVID v. risk of vaccine. Both are approximately known, not precisely, but to the order of magnitude. I did this analysis on this site several weeks ago. I would welcome your comments.June 15, 2021 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1983472
Yserbius, DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.June 15, 2021 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1983483
The bottom line is that we are are giving covid-19 shots ( they are technically not vaccines) for a viris with a 99% survival rate which is absolutely ridiculous! This shot is still experimental and does not incur any liability. Many side effects are being reported by the media, but the most critical affects we don’t know about are the long term affects of this shot that injects a person with DNA that alters their DNA response.June 15, 2021 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1983495
philosopher, DNA/RNA/ARR – we clearly do not know what we are talking about. Let’s just acknowledge a legit fear of unknown. There is a lot to feat – there is a plot of COVID R0 rate – gradually growing from < 2 for the original Wuhan, to 2_ for Alpha and 4+ for Delta and would be expected to grow while there are billions of untreated people available for experiments. Plus, what if some lab will decide to experiment further. It is much easier to improve existing thing than create a new one.
I agree w/ kollelman on despicable delay of reporting vaccine trials. There were already a lot of indications that things are going well, but nobody could believe that it will that successful. I don’t know whether Phizer CEO is (completely) at fault. Maybe FDA insiders forced him or changed the rules. Hard to argue with the government.June 15, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1983531
“DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.”
Congratulations you have managed to give the shallowest explanation of cell biology I have ever seen! You should read up on the topic a bit more (and not blindly regurgitate everything you see online) and you will gain a new appreciation for Hashem’s world.
There are valid arguments against vaccinating kids but when you entertain stupidity it really detracts from your point.June 16, 2021 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1983565
bk613 > You should read up on the topic a bit mor
people often make sincere arguments without knowing that they are not right. There are 2 issues here:
1) need to know basics of sciences. R Avraham Twersky Z’L suggests learning physiology to appreciate the beauty of Hashem’s creation
2) how do we operate in the environment where our knowledge is incomplete:
how do we evaluate our (lack of) chochma; what authority we trust and how do we evaluate quality and biases; how do we treat cases of safek; how do we make sure not to create danger to others and hillul Hashem by our incomplete knowledge.
In theory, Gemora and halakha education should prepare people to answer such questions. I once attempted to repeat one of the Kanneman/Twersky experiments on biases due to anchoring (one questions leads person to think a certain way, and this affects an answer to a second question which has a totally objective measure). From a small sample, it looked like people who learned Gemora had smaller bias than professors, software engineers, and undergrads. But I realized later, those learners were pre-selected from a group I interacted with, not average learners.
And as we see in some cases, the result might be opposite: we feel that after resolving macholkes bein Abaye and Rava, we can decide medical and public health issues without Biology 101 or bothering to look up statistical sources. See Maharal Netivos Olam on Bavli as we discussed some time ago for explanation of this unfortunate phenomenon.June 16, 2021 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1983720
@Always_Ask_Questions Yes, that was what I was getting at. That’s why it’s important to trust Rabbonim, doctors, and community organizers over doing the research yourself. Sure the data is out there, but you if you don’t know how to interpret it (or worse, think you know how to interpret it) you’re going to make a horrible mistake and potentially put people’s lives in danger.June 16, 2021 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1983769
Rav Aharon Feldman SHLITA once told over a story. He was talking to a non-frum student from an Israeli college and asked about his Gemara class. “Well, the professor tells us Bais Hillel’s pshat, Bais Shamai’s pshat, and then his own pshat.”
That’s sort of what’s happening here.June 16, 2021 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1983773
Always ask, you realize what the statistics are? Covid-19 has a 99% survival rate while we are getting no numbers on the supposed “vaccinations”. Furthermore, doctors and healthcare professionals have different opinions. Anyway, to each his own. People are followers or independent thinkers. There are pros and cons to each group and repercussions according to each individual. I choose to be independent rather than follow the herd.June 16, 2021 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1983778
bk613, maybe my previous response to you post is not showing up due to its tone, maybe it will show up, but I am repeating my request here. Please explain in fancy terminology that will blow everyone’s mind away, how the fact that “DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response” is untrue because it is written without fancy and technical scientific jargon. Thank you in advance.June 16, 2021 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1983805
“Anyway, to each his own. ” Is not a magic sentiment that makes nonsense correct.
You spoke to your doctor and they advised you not to get it. Ok I understand that (although a recent survey said 96% of Doctors are vaccinated).
you heard from your wife’s friends’s Instagram post that it is very bad, and therfore you are scared. I get that too. (doesn’t make you right, obviously, but I get it)
what puzzles me is the need to post nonsense, and nonsense that is easily debunked by a high school level understanding of cell biology like “DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.” Why?
Why the need to back up your opinion with nonsense?June 16, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1983849
ubiquitin, No, I did ask any doctor about giving my children shots ( or getting one myself) Do you think doctors are God that they know everything?! I once diagnosed a dangerous condition myself because the doctor I went to was insistent that it’s nothing. I changed doctors and insisted I get an MRI and sure enough, I’m not going into details, but I needed surgery to correct the issue. And that is just one case where I used my God-given brain. There were other instances where I used my intuition and it worked out well b”H. Doctors do not know EVERYTHING and people are naive if they believe that.
I absolutely do not believe that 96% percent of doctors took the shot ( it is NOT a vaccine). There are many renowned doctors worldwide speaking out against this shot.
Now, as I said to bk613, what part of what I said regarding DNA producing RNA, which the covid-19 shot modifies it’s response so that the shot affects and modifies the DNA’s natural response is not correct?
You people remind me of when I argue with atheists that matter cannot come into existence on its own so then how could matter have created itself out of nothingness? So they bring up one study after the next, one theory after the next, all in impressive scientific jargon, but nothing can change the simple SCIENTIFIC reality that matter cannot come into existence on its own out of nothingness. Same here, you can go deep into biology and studies but nothing can change reality which is really very simple.June 16, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1983837
“ Please explain in fancy terminology that will blow everyone’s mind away”
Not gonna do that. There is no point and would be a waste of my time. But if you actually are curious there are plenty of resources online that explain what mRNA is and what cells in the body do with it. Many will even use as little “fancy and technical scientific jargon” as possible to cater to people such as yourself.June 16, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1983833
Am I following well Rambam/Aristotle’s “middle path” – as one person seems to attack me for disregarding authority and another for not allowing independent thinking?!
there is no one answer here:
> People are followers or independent thinkers.
you can’t be a thinker if you do not have information and do not know how to process it.
> Covid-19 has a 99% survival rate while we are getting no numbers on the supposed “vaccinations”.
There is a lot of research on vaccines, both Phase 3s and now uncontrolled studies. These numbers seem to be more reliable than COVID analysis: we know exactly whether and when someone got a vaccine, while we often do not know whether and when someone got COVID. I recently posted an estimate of vaccine side effects and compared them with COVID side effects. Decision may depend on how old you are, and whether you actively mix with other people, esp unvaccinated.
> it’s important to trust Rabbonim, doctors, and community organizers over doing the research yourself.
As I said, it depends on your capabilities and of those you are asking. I can make a professional judgment in some aspects, I can then ask those in other areas, in some areas I use my professional contacts to get information from researchers rather than “community organizers”. One of them walked me thru difference in technologies of different vaccine types and I indeed “trusted” her – because the explanation way beyond my knowledge. And nobody is perfect when you are asking, it is just a nature of things… I was on one mass zoom call where the person went through sanitary measures and I had to chat him privately, as he forgot to mention a couple of important things …June 17, 2021 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1983911
Always ask, you do realize that “controlled studies” of medication takes years before it is allowed on the market while these so-called uncontrolled “studies” (they are certainly NOT controlled studies- the average Joe is the studied specimen) are merely months old and politically motivated.
And why do you think you can decide who and how people can come to conclusions on what they feel is appropriate, or inappropriate, medical intervention (which is what the covid-19 shot is) even before they need any intervention? 🤔 People, including scientists and doctors followed lying Fauxi blindly, while other people, doctors and scientists were against Fauxi, whether it was about pandemic rules, the source of the virus or the covid-19 shot. Why do you think one side is more knowledgeable than the other side, and particularly why is the “official” government pandered info believed when it has been shown numerous times in the end to be politically motivated either for money or power, oftentimes it takes months and years for the truth to come out and oftentimes the truth is suppressed?June 17, 2021 3:53 am at 3:53 am #1983918
“I absolutely do not believe that 96% percent of doctors took the shot”
I know you don’t. It doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative so you discard it.
“what part of what I said regarding DNA producing RNA, which the covid-19 shot modifies it’s response so that the shot affects and modifies the DNA’s natural response is not correct?”
DNA doesn’t produce RNA (at least not directly)
The covid 19 shot doesn’t modify anything
And RNA doesn’t modify DNA.
So every part 9f what you said was wrong.
And don’t worry I didn’t think you asked your doctor. I’ve had these discussions before its never based on the person’s doctorJune 17, 2021 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1983971
philospher> Why do you think one side is more knowledgeable than the other side,
> you can decide who and how people can come to conclusions
I hear your concerns about government, and I agree with them. Every politician’s judgment is suspect, and every gov administrator is a politician, working and keeping his way up. I am all for skepticism, but it does not mean that we just need to weight equally everything you can google.
I personally have expertise and training in data analysis and that is what I am trying to judge.
>> “controlled studies” of medication takes years before it is allowed on the market while these so-called uncontrolled “studies” (they are certainly NOT controlled studies- the average Joe is the studied specimen) are merely months old
again, good questions that I am also concerned about. I reviewed history of multi-year vaccine controlled studies and follow-ups after that. Most of side effects are discovered early.
Uncontrolled studies seem to be strong, I read several. They work the following way – you match every vaccinated person to a similar unvaccinated one and do pairwise comparison on million of pairs. It is good technology. It is not as good as controlled study to get one single answer – 94% or 80%, but it is very good at fishing out multiple potential correlations and problems. This approach is more likely to generate false predictions that have to be later validated by controlled studies than to miss one. Note also that there are studies from different countries now – Israel, UK, EU. They all have governments, but still there is some diversity of views here, and many published as preprints before they get reviewed.
Most important, there are cases of caution and there are of trade-offs. For example, mask wearing, SD, online learning, outdoor minyanim are no-brainer from public health prospective – even when the government says – don’t worry, spend money, I want to be re-elected, we now can handle number of patients, you can be a little more cautious not to be one of those patients.
But, with vaccine, you have a trade-off: you risk either a vaccine or a virus. One is made in Western countries trying to save people, another – wild or made in China trying to hurt people. I am more worrying about the second. So, you need to weigh your exposure risk: if you have high chance of being exposed, I would choose vaccine any time. If you are not exposed and a teenager, the numbers are not so clear to me.June 17, 2021 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1984049
ubiquitin, where is the source and where is the proof that 96% percent of doctors took the test? From CNN or the NYT perhaps?
DNA 100% produces RNA. The shot 100% modifies the RNA response. Absolutely no one disputes this (unless one has no knowledge of how the shot works) even those who support the shot. It’s on many of covid-19 shots manufacturers websites. The only point of contention is if the DNA response itself gets modified or only the RNAs response is modified. There are many professionals in the field who say that the DNA’s response gets modified because of the modified RNA response or that there is no sufficient testing that disproves. The pro-covid-19 shots crowd says the DNA does not get affected, but nobody disputes that this shot modifies the RNAs response, that is how the shot works.June 17, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1984062
Always ask, I appreciate your analysis, but I don’t agree with your conclusion. And that is the American way, we each have the ability to analyze and draw our own conclusions. However, don’t forget who pushes out the “data” about the vaccine, the sources are generally the MSM and Dr. Fauxi ( and the shots manufacturers) and they are least concerned with the actual facts as they tried denying that the virus came from a lab which is now almost a certainty.
The bottom line for me is that it does not make sense to take a shot for a virus that has a 99% chance of recovery. On top of that many people have developed serious side affects and since this has not been tested under controlled studies and is not long enough on the market to come to definite conclusions, we cannot snbe certain of the percentage of fatalities or serious medical conditions affecting people who took the shot.
The world is made up of individuals who have their own opinions and arrive at their own conclusions, even those who are very trusting in their leaders and doctors, it is their decision to believe in them and to unwaveringly trust in them, it doesn’t mean that the entire world’s population will arrive to the same conclusion. Burach Hashem that in the US we still have, for now, some freedom to choose what we feel is right and everyone should do what they do what they feel is right for them.
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