COVID VACCINE FOR CHILDREN

It’s bad for their health and also on a separate note totally unnecessary.

Do the proper research and see for yourself.

there are several things you might consider, a couple for your
1) what would be the case level in US in the fall. It is going down right now, thankfully, similar to UK, and 20 times larger than Israel. Will it continue going down? New factors for that: UK had an increase due to Indian variant. Vaccination doses in US fell down from 1% daily to 0.4% and continue decreasing (thanks, Biden’s valiant efforts!). At current rates, we are at least 4 months behind Israel on total doses.

2) how likely your kids will get COVID, especially a large dose. If they will stay without social distancing and ventilation and case level among mostly unvaccinated kids will not decrease – reasonably high

3) this one for the doctor – what are risks for your kid from COVID and from vaccine

@Yserbius123, I hear your words and think you are a noble, intelligent person. I, too, thought that way until my kids suffered from adverse effects of a vaccine many years ago. Vaccines are amazing and work very very well. Most of the time. But not all the time. The problem is we don’t know who it will be good for and for whom it will not deal well with. I think the attitude of ‘Well if my doctor says it’s good then it is good for me’ is an old-fashioned misplaced trust
That was true when doctors of old healed their patience with herbs and natural heathy ingredients. When the big Pharma companies are now supplying the unnatural, sometimes toxic, drug doses that doctors distribute to their patients, caution must be applied. I’m not saying not to take the vaccines or stuff, all I’m saying is use your common sense, and speak it over with people who are knowledgeable in this area to get some sense of what to do.
Maybe you’ll get good advice like:
Let’s see what happens in a couple months, then we’ll revisit if we should get this or not.
or, Did you know these COVID vaccines aren’t even FDA approved and are on a trial basis.
or, Why should kids get the vaccine if COVID it’s not even dangerous for them? Besides don’t we all have something naturally better by Hashem Himself – antibodies!
Again, make your own decision.
Doctors by the way, took years and years to get their degrees, won’t necessarily tell you what’s right but what they were taught in university. Vaccines=Healthy

I wonder how many parents today would have chosen for their children to have received the Salk vaccine like many of our parents did. Critics of that vaccine claimed that it was insufficiently tested and the testing was flawed.

Doctors just follow the protocol they are told to follow by cdc. They have absolutely zero education about vaccines. How can you trust a doctor on a vaccine that has not been studied?
This is sad that people wash their hands off the responsibility for their children, and their own selves, and just have others make personal decisions for them.

I mean, a lot of what you are all saying makes some sort of sense. There’s definitely less of a need for kids to get COVID vaccinated than adults. But I still disagree with one major point. I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet. Otherwise, why go to a doctor at all?

Have you read the first hand stories of children that became paralyzed from the vaccine? And the reported cases of heart inflammation in teenagers? And female hormones going crazy in addition to causing stillborns, miscarriages, rapid heart racing and blood clots. It’s all on the web. Just do your research like you do before buying your car. Need I say more?

@shomershabbat I haven’t heard any firsthand stories of major issues directly related to vaccinations. It’s always “a friend of a friend” or a screenshot of a Facebook page. But I do know of many firsthand stories of major issues that people had from COVID, including children or people who got it from children. “Just do the research” and “All on the web” are nariche statements. I have read these websites that claim to show the research. I don’t trust them. Especially since so many of them are so anti-Semitic. Look I’m not saying we need to start lining up infants to get the shot immediately, but if you’re giving me tzvei tzdadim of a pshat, one from a doctor who I literally trust with my life, and one from some random website on the Internet, it’s not a shayloh who’s word I’ll take.

Also, and this goes for @Always_Ask_Questions too, my doctor didn’t actually tell me anything yet and I haven’t yet asked. But whatever she says, I will take very seriously into account when making my decision. And I will double check with other experts. My town is zocheh to have a team of doctors who have been tirelessly researching COVID and advising the local Va’ad and all the Yeshivos on their decisions. So it’s not just “some med school graduate” nor are they “misguided”. They are literally devoting hours every day to investigating and reading the literature on COVID and the vaccines. So yeah, I trust them.

I know plenty of adults who had covid bad
No children . Including my immune compromised niece who was exposed directly not once but three times. So I’m pretty confident Covid has little to no risk for kids. I am not confident however, that the vaccine is safe. Evidence is mounting that it may not be. So if you weigh the risk to benefits logically you may not want to experiment upon your children with a brand new vaccine that has no long term safety data.

kollelman
“and paid by the insurance companies to dole out vaccines.”

Why would the insurance companies pay for a vaccine that at best doesnt work and at worst causes people to get sicker (forcing them to pay more). Seems like a lose lose?

“They pay doctors a bonus if they give 10 vaccines per child for 85%+ of their patients.”

Yes becasue it saves them money. vaccinating against polio is cheaper than paying for treatment of Polio and its sequalea same for Measles, Mumps even chicken Pox.

“On a macro scale, yes, maybe this covid vaccine works or at least doesn’t do harm. On an individual level however, there are significant risks that far outweigh the benefits IMHO”

It isnt clear to me how you made this distinction. The individual doesnt know which group he is in (ie those who Would get Covid and do poorly vs those who get covid and would do well or for that matter those who Get the vaccine and have minimal/no side effects vs those who have significant side effects) .

I don’t know about children , which is why I didnt reply to this thread .

I am trying to understand thewhat you view as the motivation behind pushing vaccines
You said doctors don’t do research they just do it because they are getting paid (not a verabtim quote) .

Fine

so why are the insurance companies paying?
You give 2 (possible?) reasons :

1) The vaccine works “on a macro scale” (or at least the insurance company thinks it does)
and
2) “they are likely subsidized by government to give out the vaccines”

IF #1 Great! whats the problem.
if #2 that just shifts the question:

why is the government paying to give out vaccines?

Guys, you need to get some numbers to make a conclusion. When you are saying, I don’t know kids who got dangerously sick from covid, what does that mean: out of 100? 1000? Do you know whether there’s long-term minor damage?
And when you say, there are complications from vaccine, is it 1 in 10,000?
I am not saying one way or another, but you are making conclusion based on feelings
As to the current virus level, USA is 30x more than Israel. Also remaining virus circulates among unvaccinated groups such as teens, who communicate with each other.

Since we’re living in a world that has the truth literally hiding (Ha’emes Ne’ede’res’) – Rabbonim, Askonim and many others have been acting out of actual panic and without proper evaluation of the situation required of a Beis Din. The FDA did not properly vet the vaccine, and nobody can confirm its reliability or safety. The same FDA and CDC that pushed this vaccine at “warp speed” denied usage of medicines that were deemed safe for over 60 years and are used over the counter in many countries worldwide. Do you trust those people? Are those the experts we’ll base Halacha on? I surely hope not. How about the CEO of Pfizer who told Fauci about the vaccine being ready before the November election, but refused to announce it until after the election, lest Trump benefit from the announcement. It’s. All. Politics. You. Are. Being. Played.

The Lancet (the most highly regarded medical journal in the world) published an article in April showing the vaccine is delivering actual results of 1-2% reduction in transmission. This entire virus/weapon has been hyped beyond our wildest comprehension and China is laughing all the way to the bank.

I won’t deny the virus is real – I was sick in bed with fever for 3 weeks and could barely move. What’s criminal is the denial of life-saving medicines that already exist; starving and dehydrating people to death in hospital rooms because nurses (Riiiight, let’s make a parade for “front-line workers”) wouldn’t tend to patients. There are abundant stories from first-hand accounts – people who died and were found with notes in their pockets where they wrote how they are dying of thirst and being abandoned and ignored.

I’ll pose this simply – if one dies or is seriously injured by the vaccine will they receive any compensation from any insurance company? Will life insurance pay? No, they will deny, and have already denied any claims, citing that the vaccine is experimental. That’s all you need to know. If anyone wants to take an experimental DNA modifying drug to possibly prevent a 0.001% chance of dying, good luck to them. All the more so children, who have not been affected at ALL from this virus. I’ll stick with Sofek u’voday, ein Sofek motzi mi’dei voday – the risk of the vaccine causing injury of any kind is higher than the risk of the virus which a person may not necessarily contract. And if a person already got the virus, taking the vaccine is just propaganda to the max – denying Hashem’s ability to give us natural immunity that is far superior than any man-made vaccine.

@kollelman mRNA vaccines do not modify the body’s DNA. They are messenger RNA molecules, not DNA modifications.

Yserbius, DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.

philosopher, DNA/RNA/ARR – we clearly do not know what we are talking about. Let’s just acknowledge a legit fear of unknown. There is a lot to feat – there is a plot of COVID R0 rate – gradually growing from < 2 for the original Wuhan, to 2_ for Alpha and 4+ for Delta and would be expected to grow while there are billions of untreated people available for experiments. Plus, what if some lab will decide to experiment further. It is much easier to improve existing thing than create a new one.

I agree w/ kollelman on despicable delay of reporting vaccine trials. There were already a lot of indications that things are going well, but nobody could believe that it will that successful. I don’t know whether Phizer CEO is (completely) at fault. Maybe FDA insiders forced him or changed the rules. Hard to argue with the government.

bk613 > You should read up on the topic a bit mor

people often make sincere arguments without knowing that they are not right. There are 2 issues here:

1) need to know basics of sciences. R Avraham Twersky Z’L suggests learning physiology to appreciate the beauty of Hashem’s creation

2) how do we operate in the environment where our knowledge is incomplete:
how do we evaluate our (lack of) chochma; what authority we trust and how do we evaluate quality and biases; how do we treat cases of safek; how do we make sure not to create danger to others and hillul Hashem by our incomplete knowledge.

In theory, Gemora and halakha education should prepare people to answer such questions. I once attempted to repeat one of the Kanneman/Twersky experiments on biases due to anchoring (one questions leads person to think a certain way, and this affects an answer to a second question which has a totally objective measure). From a small sample, it looked like people who learned Gemora had smaller bias than professors, software engineers, and undergrads. But I realized later, those learners were pre-selected from a group I interacted with, not average learners.

And as we see in some cases, the result might be opposite: we feel that after resolving macholkes bein Abaye and Rava, we can decide medical and public health issues without Biology 101 or bothering to look up statistical sources. See Maharal Netivos Olam on Bavli as we discussed some time ago for explanation of this unfortunate phenomenon.

Rav Aharon Feldman SHLITA once told over a story. He was talking to a non-frum student from an Israeli college and asked about his Gemara class. “Well, the professor tells us Bais Hillel’s pshat, Bais Shamai’s pshat, and then his own pshat.”

That’s sort of what’s happening here.

bk613, maybe my previous response to you post is not showing up due to its tone, maybe it will show up, but I am repeating my request here. Please explain in fancy terminology that will blow everyone’s mind away, how the fact that “DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response” is untrue because it is written without fancy and technical scientific jargon. Thank you in advance.

ubiquitin, No, I did ask any doctor about giving my children shots ( or getting one myself) Do you think doctors are God that they know everything?! I once diagnosed a dangerous condition myself because the doctor I went to was insistent that it’s nothing. I changed doctors and insisted I get an MRI and sure enough, I’m not going into details, but I needed surgery to correct the issue. And that is just one case where I used my God-given brain. There were other instances where I used my intuition and it worked out well b”H. Doctors do not know EVERYTHING and people are naive if they believe that.

I absolutely do not believe that 96% percent of doctors took the shot ( it is NOT a vaccine). There are many renowned doctors worldwide speaking out against this shot.

Now, as I said to bk613, what part of what I said regarding DNA producing RNA, which the covid-19 shot modifies it’s response so that the shot affects and modifies the DNA’s natural response is not correct?

You people remind me of when I argue with atheists that matter cannot come into existence on its own so then how could matter have created itself out of nothingness? So they bring up one study after the next, one theory after the next, all in impressive scientific jargon, but nothing can change the simple SCIENTIFIC reality that matter cannot come into existence on its own out of nothingness. Same here, you can go deep into biology and studies but nothing can change reality which is really very simple.

Am I following well Rambam/Aristotle’s “middle path” – as one person seems to attack me for disregarding authority and another for not allowing independent thinking?!

there is no one answer here:
> People are followers or independent thinkers.
you can’t be a thinker if you do not have information and do not know how to process it.

> Covid-19 has a 99% survival rate while we are getting no numbers on the supposed “vaccinations”.
There is a lot of research on vaccines, both Phase 3s and now uncontrolled studies. These numbers seem to be more reliable than COVID analysis: we know exactly whether and when someone got a vaccine, while we often do not know whether and when someone got COVID. I recently posted an estimate of vaccine side effects and compared them with COVID side effects. Decision may depend on how old you are, and whether you actively mix with other people, esp unvaccinated.

> it’s important to trust Rabbonim, doctors, and community organizers over doing the research yourself.

As I said, it depends on your capabilities and of those you are asking. I can make a professional judgment in some aspects, I can then ask those in other areas, in some areas I use my professional contacts to get information from researchers rather than “community organizers”. One of them walked me thru difference in technologies of different vaccine types and I indeed “trusted” her – because the explanation way beyond my knowledge. And nobody is perfect when you are asking, it is just a nature of things… I was on one mass zoom call where the person went through sanitary measures and I had to chat him privately, as he forgot to mention a couple of important things …

Philosopher
“I absolutely do not believe that 96% percent of doctors took the shot”

I know you don’t. It doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative so you discard it.

“what part of what I said regarding DNA producing RNA, which the covid-19 shot modifies it’s response so that the shot affects and modifies the DNA’s natural response is not correct?”

Every part:
DNA doesn’t produce RNA (at least not directly)
The covid 19 shot doesn’t modify anything
And RNA doesn’t modify DNA.
So every part 9f what you said was wrong.

And don’t worry I didn’t think you asked your doctor. I’ve had these discussions before its never based on the person’s doctor

ubiquitin, where is the source and where is the proof that 96% percent of doctors took the test? From CNN or the NYT perhaps?

DNA 100% produces RNA. The shot 100% modifies the RNA response. Absolutely no one disputes this (unless one has no knowledge of how the shot works) even those who support the shot. It’s on many of covid-19 shots manufacturers websites. The only point of contention is if the DNA response itself gets modified or only the RNAs response is modified. There are many professionals in the field who say that the DNA’s response gets modified because of the modified RNA response or that there is no sufficient testing that disproves. The pro-covid-19 shots crowd says the DNA does not get affected, but nobody disputes that this shot modifies the RNAs response, that is how the shot works.