June 1, 2021 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1979242
Now that many doctors offices are gearing up to vaccinate the kids, do you think this is a good idea?June 1, 2021 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1979253ParticipantParticipant
I don’t understand the need for it.June 1, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1979332Sam KleinParticipant
It’s bad for their health and also on a separate note totally unnecessary.
Do the proper research and see for yourself.June 1, 2021 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1979367
@Same-Klein My research consists of asking my doctor, pediatrician, and doctors I know. If they say it’s important, then I listen to them. If they would say it’s bad for their health, I would listen to them.June 1, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1979425
there are several things you might consider, a couple for your
1) what would be the case level in US in the fall. It is going down right now, thankfully, similar to UK, and 20 times larger than Israel. Will it continue going down? New factors for that: UK had an increase due to Indian variant. Vaccination doses in US fell down from 1% daily to 0.4% and continue decreasing (thanks, Biden’s valiant efforts!). At current rates, we are at least 4 months behind Israel on total doses.
2) how likely your kids will get COVID, especially a large dose. If they will stay without social distancing and ventilation and case level among mostly unvaccinated kids will not decrease – reasonably high
3) this one for the doctor – what are risks for your kid from COVID and from vaccineJune 1, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1979427June 1, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1979475BaalHaboozeParticipant
@Yserbius123, I hear your words and think you are a noble, intelligent person. I, too, thought that way until my kids suffered from adverse effects of a vaccine many years ago. Vaccines are amazing and work very very well. Most of the time. But not all the time. The problem is we don’t know who it will be good for and for whom it will not deal well with. I think the attitude of ‘Well if my doctor says it’s good then it is good for me’ is an old-fashioned misplaced trust
That was true when doctors of old healed their patience with herbs and natural heathy ingredients. When the big Pharma companies are now supplying the unnatural, sometimes toxic, drug doses that doctors distribute to their patients, caution must be applied. I’m not saying not to take the vaccines or stuff, all I’m saying is use your common sense, and speak it over with people who are knowledgeable in this area to get some sense of what to do.
Maybe you’ll get good advice like:
Let’s see what happens in a couple months, then we’ll revisit if we should get this or not.
or, Did you know these COVID vaccines aren’t even FDA approved and are on a trial basis.
or, Why should kids get the vaccine if COVID it’s not even dangerous for them? Besides don’t we all have something naturally better by Hashem Himself – antibodies!
Again, make your own decision.
Doctors by the way, took years and years to get their degrees, won’t necessarily tell you what’s right but what they were taught in university. Vaccines=HealthyJune 1, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1979483
checkout Dr Byram Bridle’s interview about the covid vaccine with Alex pearson. you can google itJune 1, 2021 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1979566Amil ZolaParticipant
I wonder how many parents today would have chosen for their children to have received the Salk vaccine like many of our parents did. Critics of that vaccine claimed that it was insufficiently tested and the testing was flawed.June 1, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1979573
I spoke to 2 pediatricians. They both clearly did not research this vaccine at all. They did not even research covid. One told me so. The other it was obvious. This is not a time where the truth is known. The truth about these vaccines is slowly coming out, but it’s still really not known unless you spend hours upon hours on it like I do. Its best to wait and be cautious because once you vaccinate you can never undo it.June 1, 2021 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1979572MindfulParticipant
Doctors just follow the protocol they are told to follow by cdc. They have absolutely zero education about vaccines. How can you trust a doctor on a vaccine that has not been studied?
This is sad that people wash their hands off the responsibility for their children, and their own selves, and just have others make personal decisions for them.June 2, 2021 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1979585
here are some numbers that can be a starting point to help you make a deicsion or discuss with the doctor. Disclaimer: I just know numbers, medicine is not my area of expertise, so please double-check the information.
General CDC stats: children have 2x less cases that 30-40 y.o, 10x less hospitalization, 50x less mortality.
Now, specific to vaccine risks, the one major risk discovered so far is myocarditis in younger population:
Risk of myocarditis in teens/young adults after Pfizer vaccine: 5 per million after 1st dose, 25 per million after second dose. Higher rates for pre-existing conditions and younger age. [Israeli data]
Risk of myocarditis for children when infected by COVID: 0.1-0.3%, or 1000-3000 per mln. [multiple papers] And about same number of other similar complications. Total hospitalizations among children: 2,600 per mln.
So, roughly if the child is in an environment where his cumulative risk of getting sick w/ COVID is 1%, then his myocarditis risk is 1% of 1000 (3000) = 10-30 per mln – about same as of the vaccine.
How likely the kid to be in 1%? CDC estimates that 40% of children were already infected in 13 months (until March 2021). That is 3% per month.
Things are getting better. Month of May was ~5x safer than previous ones. So, an average kid may have 1% risk in 2-3 months going forward. So, it matters if the kid will be in a risky environment – high-density school, no ventilation, community with low vaccinate rates among both adults and children and international travel, or in a safe environment, like home/online school with responsible adults.
Some emerging ideas:
– do an antibody test before vaccination
– do one vaccine dose [Israelis are considering that]
– wait for end of trials that are testing lower doses for smaller children
– wait for more information available next couple of months before the school year startsJune 2, 2021 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1979800
I mean, a lot of what you are all saying makes some sort of sense. There’s definitely less of a need for kids to get COVID vaccinated than adults. But I still disagree with one major point. I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet. Otherwise, why go to a doctor at all?June 2, 2021 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1979824shomershabbatParticipant
To Yserbius123: We trust doctors because of their years of study and training in the medical field. COVID-19 was not in the curriculum in Medical School. Trusting your doctor on issues of new diseases is like trusting a coffee shop to make you a steak. They might know how to make the best coffee but you can’t make steak out of coffee beans. Unfortunately, many doctors misjudged and misguided people during Covid which has caused many people to be niftar wrongly R”L. Many cases known personally.June 2, 2021 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1979823shomershabbatParticipant
Have you read the first hand stories of children that became paralyzed from the vaccine? And the reported cases of heart inflammation in teenagers? And female hormones going crazy in addition to causing stillborns, miscarriages, rapid heart racing and blood clots. It’s all on the web. Just do your research like you do before buying your car. Need I say more?June 2, 2021 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1979853
> And the reported cases of heart inflammation in teenagers?
See statistics above. It is very easy to get distracted by a spectacular case. This is not a consumer case complaining about late delivery by Amazon/Fauci/doctors … it is an ongoing pandemic that killed millions of people. Try to make a reasonable informed decision. You just happened to be on a Facebook feed about vaccines, but not about Covid. Maybe go visit a COVID ward and then compare with what you heard about vaccines, or review the numbers I posted above.
> I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet
Yserbius, first it depends on a doctor. some have a trusted knowledgeable one, some have a random graduate of a random medical school.
2nd, ask them what they base their decisions on. A good doctor will be able to discuss his reasoning.
3rd, decision may depend on your personal preferences. The doctor may assume that your kid needs vaccine to attend wild parties. Tell him that your kid sits by himself and learns, and conclusion may be different. Also, decision point is not to – take or not take vaccine, but take a vaccine now or delay a decision by 1-2 months when more information will be available.June 3, 2021 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1980087
@shomershabbat I haven’t heard any firsthand stories of major issues directly related to vaccinations. It’s always “a friend of a friend” or a screenshot of a Facebook page. But I do know of many firsthand stories of major issues that people had from COVID, including children or people who got it from children. “Just do the research” and “All on the web” are nariche statements. I have read these websites that claim to show the research. I don’t trust them. Especially since so many of them are so anti-Semitic. Look I’m not saying we need to start lining up infants to get the shot immediately, but if you’re giving me tzvei tzdadim of a pshat, one from a doctor who I literally trust with my life, and one from some random website on the Internet, it’s not a shayloh who’s word I’ll take.
Also, and this goes for @Always_Ask_Questions too, my doctor didn’t actually tell me anything yet and I haven’t yet asked. But whatever she says, I will take very seriously into account when making my decision. And I will double check with other experts. My town is zocheh to have a team of doctors who have been tirelessly researching COVID and advising the local Va’ad and all the Yeshivos on their decisions. So it’s not just “some med school graduate” nor are they “misguided”. They are literally devoting hours every day to investigating and reading the literature on COVID and the vaccines. So yeah, I trust them.June 3, 2021 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1980110besalelParticipant
shomershabbat: i agree 10000% with your comment.
As for the vaccines, I do not seriously fear them for my kids but I really do not see the point of having healthy children vaccinated for a disease that does not affect healthy children. There is virtually zero risk to children from COVID and those who are at risk are getting vaccinated.
All of my children have always been up to date on all vaccines but I just do not see any medical benefit in having healthy children vaccinated against Covid.
Now, there may be social benefits to having the kids vaccinated and since i do not fear the vaccines I most likely will have them vaccinated if that’s the only way we can fly without masks or get into certain countries or venues but from a medical standpoint I really do not see the need at all.June 3, 2021 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1980132sarirayParticipant
I know plenty of adults who had covid bad
No children . Including my immune compromised niece who was exposed directly not once but three times. So I’m pretty confident Covid has little to no risk for kids. I am not confident however, that the vaccine is safe. Evidence is mounting that it may not be. So if you weigh the risk to benefits logically you may not want to experiment upon your children with a brand new vaccine that has no long term safety data.June 3, 2021 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1980166
Yserbius. I am not discounting your doctors at all. I am just saying just because someone has an MD, is not sufficient to be viewed an expert on an emerging threat. Back to Meir Twersky’s last year letter – he said similarly that on a regular case we can ask one doctor, in a new uncertain case, we should ask several and take the safest of all. Except here we can’t take the safest approach as it is a trade-off between two risks.June 3, 2021 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1980193
It’s not a trade-off between two risks. You could give your kids ivermectin. You could take it yourself. There are lots of things listed on the c19protocols website. In any case, how many cases of COVID do you know of currently? You could afford to wait a few months and see what information emerges. First it was the blood clots, then the myocarditis, now they’re saying the spike proteins are potentially getting in the organs. Why can’t people wait?June 4, 2021 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1980260kollelmanParticipant
תניא ר’ יהודה אומר דור שבן דוד בא …והאמת נעדרת
In the generation that Moshiach comes…the truth will be lacking.
We’ve seen all the lies these past 15+ months. Doctors no longer do research, they just parrot what they’re told and paid by the insurance companies to dole out vaccines.
Don’t be sheep.June 4, 2021 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1980271ubiquitinParticipant
“and paid by the insurance companies to dole out vaccines.”
Why would the insurance companies pay for a vaccine that at best doesnt work and at worst causes people to get sicker (forcing them to pay more). Seems like a lose lose?June 4, 2021 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1980276kollelmanParticipant
Insurance companies look at the “big picture” and they are likely subsidized by government to give out the vaccines. This is for general vaccines. You can look up the rules for each insurance company. They pay doctors a bonus if they give 10 vaccines per child for 85%+ of their patients.
On a macro scale, yes, maybe this covid vaccine works or at least doesn’t do harm. On an individual level however, there are significant risks that far outweigh the benefits IMHO, especially for children who are barely affected by the virus.June 4, 2021 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1980293ubiquitinParticipant
“They pay doctors a bonus if they give 10 vaccines per child for 85%+ of their patients.”
Yes becasue it saves them money. vaccinating against polio is cheaper than paying for treatment of Polio and its sequalea same for Measles, Mumps even chicken Pox.
“On a macro scale, yes, maybe this covid vaccine works or at least doesn’t do harm. On an individual level however, there are significant risks that far outweigh the benefits IMHO”
It isnt clear to me how you made this distinction. The individual doesnt know which group he is in (ie those who Would get Covid and do poorly vs those who get covid and would do well or for that matter those who Get the vaccine and have minimal/no side effects vs those who have significant side effects) .
I don’t know about children , which is why I didnt reply to this thread .
I am trying to understand thewhat you view as the motivation behind pushing vaccines
You said doctors don’t do research they just do it because they are getting paid (not a verabtim quote) .
so why are the insurance companies paying?
You give 2 (possible?) reasons :
1) The vaccine works “on a macro scale” (or at least the insurance company thinks it does)
2) “they are likely subsidized by government to give out the vaccines”
IF #1 Great! whats the problem.
if #2 that just shifts the question:
why is the government paying to give out vaccines?June 4, 2021 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1980294
This lack of truth in the world is so true! @kollelman can you please tell me where to look on the internet for the information about financial incentives from insurance companies? thank youJune 4, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1980307
Guys, you need to get some numbers to make a conclusion. When you are saying, I don’t know kids who got dangerously sick from covid, what does that mean: out of 100? 1000? Do you know whether there’s long-term minor damage?
And when you say, there are complications from vaccine, is it 1 in 10,000?
I am not saying one way or another, but you are making conclusion based on feelings
As to the current virus level, USA is 30x more than Israel. Also remaining virus circulates among unvaccinated groups such as teens, who communicate with each other.June 9, 2021 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1981412
It boggles my mind that people ignore the advice of countless Rabbonim, askanim, doctors, epidemiologists, politicians, and other experts because of random things they found on some shady corner of the Internet. Why does Joe Hutzenputz’s crummy video of random news clips and poor audio have more ne’emanus than literally anyone with any authority on the subject?
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