November 19, 2009 2:07 am at 2:07 am #590830telegrokMember
My husband just walked in from shul with the craziest story. I think we are all losing our perspective when it comes to shidduchim.
A friend of our’s has a son who was driving home from yeshiva a few weeks ago on Sunday and he saw in the curb lane a car with the hazard lights flashing, and two “dressed up” girls standing beside it. Since he was raised properly by his parents (sorry, I am editorializing here), he pulled over and asked the girls if they needed help. They had a flat tire, told him that they had called for help, but that the towing company said it would be an hour and they were going to be late for a vort. So (because this is a boy whose parents taught him well), the boy (let’s call him Dovid) offered to change the tire for them. The girls were kind of astounded, but they actually took him up on the offer; he changed the tire.
While he was changing the tire they made small talk and it turns out that one of the girls knows his aunt, and we figure that she used that information to obtain his address later that week, and she (the driver of the car) and the other girl sent him a thank you note with a gift certificate to a local seforim store – they explained they would have probably spent four times that much on the towing company, and they really appreciated his help.
So, one thing leads to another, the boy calls his aunt, gets the girl’s number, and calls to thank her for the gift.
Nice story so far, right? Gets better.
They have a nice conversation and agree to meet for a coffee. And this is where the craziness starts.
Two nights later Dovid gets a call from the girl, who tells Dovid that she cannot meet him. Why? Because she was about to be redt to a very choshuve bochur, and the shadchanis told her that if word got around that this girl was going to go on a date with a guy she had met WITHOUT THE INTERVENTION OF THE SHADCHAN, (a) the choshuve bochur would not meet her, and (b) the shadchanis would no longer help her because “my clientele does not talk to boys who have not been checked out and cleared.” Of course, Dovid is upset, because he liked the girl and thought it would be worthwhile to meet with her; the girl is upset because she is torn between wanting to meet Dovid again, but not sure she wants to risk her relationship with the shadchanis if the Dovid thing doesn’t go anywhere.
So, let me understand (and faithful readers will recall that I met my husband through a shul fundraising raffle): boy helps girl by changing her flat tire; girl thanks boy with small gift; boy thanks girl; they enjoy phone conversation; and now they’re not allowed to meet?
There’s something wrong here. I’m not telling communities to change their modes of dating etc. – but why must artificial boundaries be imposed when b’derech ha’tevah a chance meeting offers a possible promise of something good?
I told my husband that if I were the girl’s mother I would send them to dinner, not just coffee.November 19, 2009 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #683619Mayan_DvashParticipant
BINGO! So, let the boy’s aunt be the shadchan and satisfy everyone. If the other shadchan’s bochur doesn’t work out Dovid can be next.
;November 19, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #683620
<<<recall that I met my husband through a shul fundraising raffle>>>
Thank you for that story, telegrok, but was he the first prize, second prize, or consolation prize?November 19, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #683621
A second problem, as slightly alluded to by Mayan Dvash, is that she is trying to date two guy simultaneously.November 19, 2009 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #683622
how did we get to this point where meeting and matching has become such a complicated and convoluted process, with so many extra rules added in this generation?November 19, 2009 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #683623
ron, In Europe the barriers were steeper and meeting and matching even more regulated. Unfortunately in this American golus many gedarim have broken down.November 19, 2009 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #683624NY MomMember
and the shadchanis told her that if word got around that this girl was going to go on a date with a guy she had met WITHOUT THE INTERVENTION OF THE SHADCHAN, (a) the choshuve bochur would not meet her, and (b) the shadchanis would no longer help her because “my clientele does not talk to boys who have not been checked out and cleared.”
Why did she have to tell the shadchanis about the specific circumstances of her meeting Dovid? What is it her business? That was a big mistake on her part. She should have just told Mrs. Shadchanis “Sorry I am busy right now.”
And Mayan Devash is right, the aunt can now become the official shadchante. And why shouldn’t she check Dovid out? Get some references from Auntie and check him out! This way her position is not compromised bec. she has a shadchan and the boys has been “checked out and cleared”.
Who knows if “Choshuva Bochur” is also a baal middos who would stop to help pple?
I hope everything works out well for both of them.November 19, 2009 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #683625williMember
in this case maybe they should meet “secretly” meaning w/o the knowledge of that shadchanit but w/ approval of other serious adults. parents family rav etc.November 19, 2009 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #683626
i don’t see ANYTHING wrong with them meeting again. get them married and send this story over to the funny shidduch stories thread 🙂November 19, 2009 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #683627cantoresqMember
ron, In Europe the barriers were steeper and meeting and matching even more regulated. Unfortunately in this American golus many gedarim have broken down.
Posted 3 hours ago #
Huh? I’ve already posted that my grandfather was already engaged to someone when he went to meet my grandmother, simlpy to help a poor shadchan make some money. How strict could things have been? The Kleinvardeiner Rav, and Kisvarda was a MAJOR kehilla in Hungary was m’shadeich his daughter to a regular ba’al habos; and not even a wealthy one. Show me a “choshuve rov” these days who would do likewise. The chareidi shochet in Salgotajrian married his daughter to a Neologue Hebrew tutor. That wouldn’t happen these days. so MM what are you talking about?November 19, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #683628Mrs. BeautifulMember
Wow, this story is very nice, nice boy indeed. However, it is obvious that we are talking about very modern circles. For 2 girls to engage in talk with the boy is modern. You have to be polite, but this is an area where pple are stumble. Yes, there shouldve been a shadchan. If the boy wanted to take the girl for coffee he shouldve asked someone to set him up as apposed to setting himself up “after a good coversation.”November 19, 2009 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #683629outoftownerMember
Aw, I was waiting for the happy ending for them to get engaged, married, and live happily ever after.. I’m disappointed 🙁November 19, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #683630oomisParticipant
I think that story is great, and I feel like there is a reason why that tire went flat in that time and place. When Hashem is the only Shadchan, people should pay attention. We are making it way too hard for our kids to meet each other.November 19, 2009 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #683631jewish and working 22Member
“If the boy wanted to take the girl for coffee he shouldve asked someone to set him up as apposed to setting himself up “after a good coversation.””
And you don’t think that is wrong that one requires an intermediary nowadays?
This story is proof that one does not need a shadchan. That single boys and girls can meet in the actions of everyday life.
Don’t you think if one finds someones he/she likes they should “go for it” without any worries that some meddlesome third party is going to ruin their reputation?November 19, 2009 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #683632WolfishMusingsParticipant
Well, if a shadchan is required nowadays, I suppose I need to divorce my wife.
Eeees and I met on our own as well. Other than HKBH, there was no shadchan involved at all. And yes, if anyone asks, I tell the truth… I’m not going to lie and invent some “shadchan” story (as I’ve seen other people who met on their own do).
The WolfNovember 19, 2009 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #683634Moe GreenMember
Your conclusion is fallacious. Instead, it should be as follows: If a shadchan is required nowadays, my wife will not be getting any more shidduch offers.November 19, 2009 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #683637WolfishMusingsParticipant
Huh? My wife isn’t getting anymore shidduch offers anyway — she’s married.
Or am I missing something?
The WolfNovember 19, 2009 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #683638bptParticipant
So what to do? Go with the mainstream, and become Mrs. Choshov (but not necessarily a very happy, impressed one), or buck the trend and get a real mentch. Truly, a real tough decision. (but I know what my call would be)November 20, 2009 12:25 am at 12:25 am #683639
sounds a bit like Eliezer’s test for a wife of Isaac.
Let’s find a boy with the sensitivity and kindness to help two stranded people fix a tire. He will be a worthy match!November 20, 2009 12:44 am at 12:44 am #683640oomisParticipant
BP Totty makes a lot of sense.November 20, 2009 1:16 am at 1:16 am #683641balancedParticipant
i once saw an accident occur between a young lady (her fault)and an older woman.five very concerned baal middos (goyim) immidately ran over to check if one of them was ok guess whichNovember 20, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #683642
Excellent point.November 20, 2009 2:13 am at 2:13 am #683643shaindelMember
People generally tend to feel safer following protocol but really not everything is clear-cut and ya, sometimes the easy-going mentality ends up being better then following protocol ( going to a shadchan,getting set up,checking out the girl/guy(1week guy next week girl) by the time the girl says yes its take a looooong time!, the shadchan sets the first 2-3 dates,etc.)
Sometimes you should take the risk and be a little open minded so many really great,heimish,frum u-name-it couples met sort of own their own,for example in Israel at a family’s shabbos table later the couple redt them to each other- there’s nothing wrong with it!November 20, 2009 2:20 am at 2:20 am #683644
Mrs. Beautiful: Why does it mean that they’re from modern circles? Any mentch would go over and help. It just so happened that in this case it was two frum girls who needed the help, one of whom he would like to get to know better. I completely agree with BP Totty. “Protocol” is not necessarily the way to go all the time.November 20, 2009 2:22 am at 2:22 am #683645
Just to add on to shaindel’s post…I know of a Rosh Yeshiva who picked out his wife after passing her in the street. No one regards him as any less of a gadol because of it.November 20, 2009 2:49 am at 2:49 am #683646mybatMember
Isn’t the guy supposed to like the girl?November 20, 2009 2:54 am at 2:54 am #683647
“Just to add on to shaindel’s post…I know of a Rosh Yeshiva who picked out his wife after passing her in the street. No one regards him as any less of a gadol because of it.”
In that case, why the reluctance to name the “RY”? If this is proudly true, there should be no shame in stating who the “gadol” is.November 20, 2009 3:08 am at 3:08 am #683648balancedParticipant
dunno- what criteria did this rosh use to determine she was right for him. at least the guy in the flat tire story had a coversation and a hakaras hatov card from the girl to help .i would tend to doubt passing s/o in the street is a reasonable system of finding a life long soulmateNovember 20, 2009 4:10 am at 4:10 am #683649
Mezonos Maven: I am reluctant to say the name because it is not a well known story and wouldn’t want anyone thinking any less of him (although i personally think there is nothing wrong)
Balanced: I’m not completely sure of the details but I think he saw her in the street, asked a sister in law to find out about her and one thing led to anotherNovember 20, 2009 5:59 am at 5:59 am #683650jewwithnomoneyMember
“Wow, this story is very nice, nice boy indeed. However, it is obvious that we are talking about very modern circles. For 2 girls to engage in talk with the boy is modern. You have to be polite, but this is an area where pple are stumble.”
I completely disagree and I think your attitude towards them is part of what makes the shidduch scene so hard these days. First of all for the girls to not make small talk and at least find out who this boy is would have been rude and in my opinion would mean that they are lacking good middos. I don’t think you can be polite without asking the boy about himself, you don’t know that they crossed any line that would mean they are being more than just polite. To say that they are modern would have been unfair but to say that it’s obvious that they are “very modern” is just absurd. Judging people like this makes them and other people who hear these stories scared to do anything that’s not by the book. This leads to boys and girls not building a relationship while dating which leads to two problems, people getting engaged without really knowing each other and almost the opposite problem of relationships breaking off because one party is afraid to tell the other about some issue they are having and figuring it’s easier to just stop going out.November 20, 2009 6:38 am at 6:38 am #683652
Wow! Amazing story! There are so many thickheaded individuals in our times
who constantly miss the boat with their artificially flavored frumkeit,
minus the common sense which is included in our Holy Torah.
Very Choshuve bochur may very well be so, only on paper, whereas mentchliche tire changer, definitely practices the actual Lilmod Al Menas L’asos.
The only problem I see with this (and i’m slightly kidding) is that this may
encourage a massive amount of girls to stage flat tires in order to find their
mentchliche basherte, or to just to walk up to guys they think match their type.
cutting out the middleman so to speak.
Not every guy or girl can handle this in an ehrliche manner,
as most of the young teens who casually talk to the opposite gender have proven,
with the hanging out, that leads to not being careful with Yichud,
and not being Shoimer Negiah.
I know some of you will say “As a teen I used schmooze with members of the opposite gender and it never led to anything!” This is an exception to the rule,
and generally aside from just a hi, bye, are you next in like, etc..
casual schmoozing usually holds ulterior motives. If they are carried out or not.
I think I got off topic as i’m falling asleep now.
So if these people are with the program, they would look into this bochur to the rescue, and upon recieving good info should grab it.
This Chosuv on paper Bocher has yet to prove himself, and they cannot overlook
obvious yad HB”H, as there really is no such a thing as coincidence.
For religious yidden that is.November 20, 2009 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #683653onlyemesMember
Sorry for the rude awakening. However, there a few things you must learn about the yeshiva velt:
1. If you play the game, you must obey the rules.
2. There are no excuses for not knowing the rules.
2. If you break the rules, there are consequences.
You apparently chose to play the game before you learned the rules.
Good luck next time. Or, don’t play this game, as you surely know from your own upbringing,there are others with different rules.November 20, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #683654
onlyemes- why then must these rules be the only ones? I am not promoting conversations between the two genders. I am saying that if it was min hashamayim that they meet, then maybe we are using inflated “frumkeit” and are straying away from the emes. min hashamayim- if one side set it up/staged the flat tire ect, then they are to be held responsible. But if it really was a flat tire–?
Maybe this could be why there is a shidduch crises- we limit ourselves to whom the shadchan knows rather than allowing for other means?? (I am once again saying that I am not referring to blatant talking/gathering between the two genders.)
The boy here may have stellar middos, would help someone besides for what is “acceptable”, yeshivish… but just happened to meet the girl this way? Would it have been better for the girls to have been waiting on the street corner, until who knows what time, in how dangerous an area at that time,… until the car could get towed?November 20, 2009 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #683657
havesomeseichel; I agree with you, however, what
onlyemes means to say, in my opinion, is that after the boy calls to thank her
for the gift, and schmoozes with her & they shared a nice conversation,
the boy or girl should’ve said hey, lets tell our parents they should look into
this as a potential shidduch. Have it redt by his aunt as the shadchan,
and finished, no heartache.
when they decided to meet on their own, i’m not saying it was wrong,
but this girl who is obviously using shadchanim who work under certain protocol,
should know that it might affect her future prospects, and if she minds,
she should’ve avoided meeting until they Kashered it out.November 22, 2009 12:05 am at 12:05 am #683658
shadchanim, sometimes, I feel are in it for the money rather than the mitzvah. Yes, some do it leshma but there are those that seem to want to have a steady stream of customers. Why does their protocol make it that they must use a shadchan? This is an abnormal situation. Yes, I understand if they wont want to help people who actively shmooze with the other gender but this could be why there is a shidduch crises. Shadchanim may be partly to blame. If you dont have yichus, money… then they wont help you. Otherwise…
Why can’t they help everyone and see past the outward “he spoke to a girl and helped he with her flat tire”? Just because they are not the “norm” (whatever that means) does it look bad on the shadchan to set them up anyways??? is it going to harm them forevermore? come on…November 22, 2009 1:23 am at 1:23 am #683659BatYisrealParticipant
Shadchanim should take alot of the blame with this ‘shidduch crisis.’ They tell who to go out with whom, when, where, what to say, what not to say, when to ask, how to act, call you fifty times the instant you walk through the door without giving you a chance to think it through… They don’t help people without connections or without calling them on a regular basis to remember your name.
Isn’t it about the boy and girl? They have to live with each other, not the shadchan.November 22, 2009 3:59 am at 3:59 am #683660truthsharerMember
Hashem threw a nice guy into their lives and they throw it back because no shadchan involved.
That is really the whole story.November 22, 2009 6:21 am at 6:21 am #683661
I thought it was the entire society’s duty to help intended couples find each other.November 22, 2009 6:33 am at 6:33 am #683662PhyllisMember
I once went with my friend to the ice cream store (before i got married) and when we got back to her car she couldnt get it to start. We called Chaveirim and they sent a guy down, we showed him the car, apparently the steering wheel was locked, he got the car to start. We thanked him and he left. The next day my friend sent a check to chaveirim, mentioned the story and that was it! The guy didnt call her to say thank you, for her thank you. That would have been absurd! We didnt think of small talk with the boy while he was fixing the car either! We didnt call to thank him personally. The Hakoras Hatov was there, but in a very modest way. What is this with boys and girls that are so friendly and comfortable with opposite genders. I think it is the Yetzer harah, and he is laughing!November 22, 2009 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #683664
I once went with my friend to the ice cream store (before i got married) and when we got back to her car she couldnt get it to start. We called Chaveirim and they sent a guy down, we showed him the car, apparently the steering wheel was locked, he got the car to start. We thanked him and he left. The next day my friend sent a check to chaveirim, mentioned the story and that was it! The guy didnt call her to say thank you, for her thank you. That would have been absurd! We didnt think of small talk with the boy while he was fixing the car either! We didnt call to thank him personally. The Hakoras Hatov was there, but in a very modest way. What is this with boys and girls that are so friendly and comfortable with opposite genders. I think it is the Yetzer harah, and he is laughing!
Very well said. I think you put it best, from the comments thus far.November 22, 2009 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #683665
Phyllis: Why is this the yetzer hara? She and the boy are interested in each other and made small talk and continued after for tachlis…not merely to speak with the opposite gender.November 22, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #683666craisinsMember
phyllis, you are comparing two incidents that barely have anything in common. you went ahead and called chaveirim. the boy came because he was sent and you had chaveirim to thank for sending him over.it would not make sense for the boy to thank you for the thank you that you sent to chaveirim. he was only part of the picture. the story at hand is very different as it wast the boy himself that had the grace to stop and help and it was him that the girl actually thanked, not his superiors….November 22, 2009 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #683667
Phyllis’ story was the perfect analogy to the OP. In fact, Phyllis had more to be thankful for. The Chaveirim boy came special out of his way to help her. In the OP, the boy happened to be passing by. Chaveirim volunteers are unpaid and have no “superiors”. The Hakoros HaTov primarily goes to the Chaveirim volunteer who came to help.
And Phyllis acted towards her helper as the prototypical Bas Yisroel steeped in Torah values should. We can all learn how to act from Phyllis’ story.November 22, 2009 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #683668PosterMember
Quoting MM – And Phyllis acted towards her helper as the prototypical Bas Yisroel steeped in Torah values should.
Mezonos Maven, I agree with you. I couldnt pinpoint what seemed wrong with the above story – Phyllis story made a lot of sense and sounded right in my opinion. Reading your summary I fully agree.November 22, 2009 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #683669
craisins; good form.
It’s hard to believe that some people here seem to miss the obvious differences between these two stories.
you didn’t have to call him to thank him personally,
you should’ve thanked him in person, while he was there fixing your car.
in telegroks story the boy wasn’t in volunteer mode, he didn’t join a group etc..
just being a mentsch. She knew he stopped off randomly,(hashgocha protis)
not anticipating the possibility a call from what he signed up for,
he just got to do mitzvas chessed by surprise.
The Girl Appreciated this and wanted to repay him for this kindness, which is normal. For normal people that is. Hakoras Hatov, is a Chiyuv!!! As well as basic decency.
1) who said this guy who came to help Phyllis, was single.
was she expecting him to strike up a conversation with her , if he’s married??!!
Although he is a Chaveirim volunteer he conducts himself as a professional.
There is nothing wrong with that.
2)Even if he was single, who said he was interested in Phyllis or her friend?
That he should strike up a conversation wit them?
MM said; “The Chaveirim boy came special out of his way to help her?
How do you know it was out of his way? Did he not sign up for this?
3) He came L’sheim mitzvah, if it were two single girls,
or a 90 year old man. He volunteered with chaveirim to help any yid,
Not to get gifts. Although Chaverim’s organization wouldn’t turn down a donation.
4)This boy and girl were single and obviously like each other.
MM; do you suggest he should ignore this. Look it up, in Gemarah, Rambam, etc..
It is a mans job to look for his Basherteh, his Aveidah, unless he’s not an Ish!
There is nothing wrong with that!
See Mesechtes Kiddusin, Beis Amud Beis. ‘??”? ???’ ?? ??? ??? ??? ???
Are you disagreeing with Chazal?November 23, 2009 12:25 am at 12:25 am #683670mybatMember
I agree with you bein hasdorim. A man does has the obligation to look for his basheret.November 23, 2009 3:56 am at 3:56 am #683671
The Gemora (Shabbos 152a) quotes a posuk: “Ki hu amar vayehi” – Hashem decreed, and so it was! “Rav Kahane said, this is a woman. She is just full of dirt and blood, yet everyone runs after her”. Meaning, there’s no logic behind it, Hashem said it should be that way, and it is. It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv. This is probably why, when Chazal say the angels came down to this world demanding a chance to keep the Torah, the aveirah that defeated them was Arayos. Because even though the angels were physical then, they still retained their angelic intellects which told them philosophically that money honor and power are not worth pursuing in this world. And through their great understanding of the futility of these Tavvos they rejected them. But women don’t work that way. No matter how wise you are the Taavah is still there, so the Malachim were unable to undo their Taavah for Arayos. The only way – the one and only way – to resist women is self discipline. Period. You can’t use your THINKING to fight the Taavah here, you can only use your ACTIONS. You have to resist, discipline, and STAY AWAY. This is why restraint from Arayos is called Kedusha (holiness) as opposed to refraining from any other sin. Refraining from other sins could be holiness, but it could also be simple wisdom. It could be you’re a Sameach b’chlko. Even a non-religious guy would be happier if he was a Sameach B’chelko, so not running after money does not necessarily have to do with religion or holiness. As opposed to Arayos, where “EVERY PLACE you find restraint from Arayos, there you find holiness” (Rashi Kedoshim). Because there is only one possible reason for not doing Arayos — self-discipline, and that’s what we mean here by holiness. This is also why we find more Gedorim and Siyagim against Arayos than any other sin. This is why, even though Sefardim always rule like the Bais Yosef even when the majority of poskim are against him, when it comes to issues of Arayos, writes the Chikrei Lev (II:180b), they are permitted to be strict, even against the Bais Yosef, with support of a majority of poskim.November 23, 2009 5:25 am at 5:25 am #683672
bein hasdorim- thanks for your analytical response. it was on target.
can someone explain the right that the shadchan had to respond (in the case of the OP) in this way? I cannot seem to understand that point of view.November 23, 2009 6:39 am at 6:39 am #683673
Tayereh MM; Thank you for your kind words. I also thank you for your Langeh Drusheh
on the various chazal on the taivos of arayos, and the gedarim one should have.
I am B”H aware of all this & much more. Though you are off topic with this.
What we are discussing, is the right for a man to pursue a potential shidduch
without the interference or involvement of a shadchan. I’m not talking about
just shmoozing with girls, hanging out with them or chasing them.
That is not ok. We are talking about seeing potential shidduch and pursuing it.
This has been done since the begining of time (besides for Odam horishon)
by many of our great and holy ancestors.
Actually, this very Parsha talks about Yaakov Avinu Doing just that.
He did NOT have a shadchan. There are many other cases but i’m not arguing with you.
The OP story shows hashgocha protis. I’m not saying that there wasn’t a better way
to do it, see my earlier posts. However to call it assur??!!November 23, 2009 8:18 am at 8:18 am #683675PosterMember
bein_hasdorim, You are implying that because he was part of Chaveirim it lessens the chessed as if he had to do it. When someone is not breathing C”V and every minute is crucial, along comes a Hatzolah memeber and preforms CPR, would you say – the hotzalah memeber was (quoting you) “in volunteer mode” or “a call from what he signed up for”.
It is no less of a chessed what this Chaveirim member did. You dont know where he was at the time. These guys dont sit in an office waiting for calls. They are going about their daily activity, and stopping cold turkey when the call comes through.
How did the girls in the above story know that the helping boy was single? Maybe he was also married? quoting u “was she expecting him to strike up a conversation with her , if he’s married??!!” They struck up conversation and found out. What I see even worse is that it was TWO girls. So he knew that on the spot there is no potential for marriage there when he is shmoozing with 2.
Just to wrap up, A typical, frum girl does not strike up coversation with any boy anywhere, there is a time and place for both the boy and the girl. A “Thank you very much” should have sufficed on both ends.
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