Credit Card “Shtick/Fraud” – is it stealing?

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  • This topic contains 31 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  gilda 1 year ago.
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  • #587821

    Joe Schmo
    Member

    There are some credit cards that give you cash back on all purchases.

    There are stores that let you return items for 100% cash back on any card (not necessarily the one you purchased it with).

    My question is – can I go to a store that has a 100% return policy and buy lets say $20,000 worth of stuff and then go return it and have them put the money back on my debit card – then go and pay the credit card and repeat over and over. Eventually I’ll make some good side pocket cash.

    I’m not technically stealing and everything I’m doing is legal. Is there any reason that this is Asur in Halacha?

    #650619

    Aleen1
    Participant

    Its geneivas daas when you buy something with the intention on returning it. additionally this is even worse since the store pays a lot of money in percentage fees for your purchases and refunds (your side pocket cash is coming from someone). they are happy to do this to keep customers happy since they hope it will ultimately boost their bottom line. If you told them what you were doing they would not agree to continue doing it. this is different then companies that offer freebies for you to take advantage of some free trial even though you know you will cancel since one of the tactics of such companies is that people will forget to cancel.

    #650620

    charliehall
    Participant

    This sounds similar to check kiting, which is a serious crime under secular law. Generally, if it sounds like a scam, it probably is. I would not try this.

    #650621

    yosse
    Participant

    the credit card companies will catch it right away and there will be big trouble. we had such a problom with a return on a credit card from american express for an item that was purchused from us. he paid with credit card a and for the return he gave us credit card b. a few months later we got a phone call from the people that we never gave them a credit on there credit card. we looked in to the matter and checked with american express to confirm that we did refund them back there money and guess what happened a few days later when our customer called back for there refund we told them we gave it to them months back and they could check out the problem with american express. we told them that the problom was they gave us a differant card to do the refund then giving us the original card that they made the purchuse with.

    #650622

    Why don’t you just ask a Rav who specializes in these types of issues?

    #650623

    ginas vradim
    Member

    to the hocker,

    maybe you should be put in a locker.

    (if you are doing this.)

    Also can you buy a house under your parents name, make it section 8 housing live in the basement and rent out the house?

    #650624

    jwander
    Participant

    The store is supposed to insure that the refund is done to the same credit card the purchase is made on. They may be lazy and shirking this duty, but the loophole you mentioned is illegal and unethical. Try getting a real job!

    #650625

    When you return something for credit,the credi card reverses the cash-back reward also,so you don’t get any free gift.

    #650626

    ZachKessin
    Member

    Just remember that your cash back comes from somewhere, probably the merchant’s credit card fees. So doing this is probably a bad idea and may be illegal (IANAL)

    #650627

    call the credit card company and ask them

    #650628

    DWKL1
    Participant

    amex will deduct the rewards posted (and their actul policy is to post reward points only after u pay the next months bill which means 3 months since the original purchase this usaually protects them from shtik like this)

    as mentioned above it most definatly falls under genevas daas as if you would ask the store straight out they would throw you out in a heartbeat so much for your plan

    ps their is no easy way to earn honest money this is part of the klolu to adam

    if its easy money you can be sure theirs a “catch” to it excuse the pun

    #650629

    yoshi
    Member

    I’ve got one word for you here: Scammer!

    #650630

    mdlevine
    Member

    there is an industry wide practice to use a clearing house for returns. what this means is that when you return items the store likes to see a personal identification. this information gets entered into a database and if a person has a lot of flip purchases, the stores reserve the right to refuse to return the product for a refund. so, after you get really good at this game of theft with many small scams and move in for the big score, your number will be up. at best, you will be stuck with several thousand $’s of merchandise that you had no intention of buying and have no way to pay for it – at worst you will be “vacationing” in Otisville.

    b/t/w for those of you who go to the bungelows, walmart does track returns, so if you were one of those who have been “puchasing” appliances for your bungelow in the past only to decide that you no longer needed it once the summer was over and returned it, your scamming days are over also.

    #650631

    skater
    Member

    For some reason people think that Genevas Da’as is permissible when done to a Goy-I learned from a Choshuve Rov who is a posek that IT IS NOT PERMISSIBLE!! people are confusing Ta’us Akum, which is benefiting from Goy’a mestake but not when you intentionally mislead him!! If you mislead him that is straight out Genevas Daas…so Hocker…I think you need to find yourself a new job!

    #650632

    Thinking
    Member

    That choshuveh rov lch’oira is Rabbi Moshe ben Maiman and Rabbi Yaakov ben R’Asher (the Tur) and Rabbi Yosef Karo!!!

    #650633

    besalel
    Participant

    We sometimes find erlich looking jews looking to buy chewing gum that is kosher “lechoyl hashitoys” yet are looking to make money that is kosher “afiloo al pi da’as yuchid.” It is never chewing gum that is kosher “afiloo al pi da’as yuchid” but money that is kosher “lochoyl hashitoys.” Maybe the priority there is messed up.

    Even if this schtick is kosher according to a certain understanding of a certain pesak of a certain posek isn’t it better that your money be “kasher lechol hashitot?”

    #650634

    JustAGirl
    Member

    The question asked displays one of the many issues with frum jews today.

    However, i do respect the asker for thinking about it before just doing it.

    Why are frum people always looking for a way to make a quick buck???

    Put it this way, the way I learned in Bais Yaakov— would a Gadol HaDor do it? I know, I know you’re no gadol, but they’re supposedly our role models…

    I’d say to STAY FAR AWAY from things like this. It’s not yashrus.

    #650635

    yitzyk
    Participant

    The question is ridiculous! A simple ‘Yes it is Ossur for a number of reasons’ would clearly answer it, but why would anyone even ask it in the first place?! It is so obviously illegal.

    Imagine going up to the Customer Service desk of a store to return the merchandise, and the clerk asking ‘Why are you returning it?’ The honest answer would be ‘I only bought it to make money on my credit card, I intended to return it all along!’

    Are you going to ask us next ‘May I lie when answering the question?’

    #650636

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    What does the Coffee room Olam think of this shtick: http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/5103

    #650637

    qaws
    Member

    Regarding the coins from the US mint “shtick” (see the above link): As far as I know, the reason the mint “sells” coins like this is because they want to get them back into circulation. If you buy them for the purpose of giving them all directly to the bank, could it be g’neivas daas?

    #650638

    jphone
    Member

    What happened to “Vehyisem Nikiim”?

    #650639

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Do you think this is how Hashem provides for parnossa?

    #650640

    I thought the Proof Sets that the Mints sell are Collector items, redeemable at a Coin Collector Convention and other Venues. I was not aware the Proof Set could be used for Legal Tender and put into circulation.

    #650641

    Josh31
    Participant

    The fraud of “buying” an item that you do not plan to keep is very different than the USA coin program. In the former you are causing real and quantifiable monetary damage to a store, the same as smashing the glass in a display case.

    With the USA coin program you are going along with a plan to “push” dollar coins into circulation and get some of them into the hands of collectors. They are giving you an incentive of getting a free loan of the face value from the day you actually recieve the coins until your credit card payment is due.

    Most of the world has accepted the use of coins for monetary amounts of about a dollar. In Israel the lowest paper money amount that I used on my last trip there was 20 Shekel or about $5-6. Getting Americans to give up the paper dollar for a coin does not seem easy. The fact that they lifted the quantity limits for the dollar coin program probably means that not enough people were subscribing to the program.

    #650642

    Darchei Noam
    Member

    The U.S. Mint program in question is designed to be purchased at face value. Once you have the U.S. currency, it is legal tender for anything public or private, and thus you can tender it to whomever you wish. I don’t see any illegalities involved here.

    BTW these coins are plain coin dollars, that replaced the Susan Anthony dollar, that is a regular face value coin. (No gold or other metal value involved.)

    #650643

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    yankdownunder, as Josh31 pointed out, the point in the Mint “selling” the coins is to push them into circulation. Not enough people use dollar coins nowadays and so they created this program in order to get them into circulation. When you buy 1000’s of them just for the credit card points and immediately deposit them in the bank as some people apparently have been doing, the banks have no use for so many coins and end up returning them to the Mint which defeats the original purpose of the Mint’s program. Although, technically it would seem legal, it seems to be lacking in yashrus. My Rosh Yesheva ZTL used to say that if it were to appear on the front page of the NY Times that a Jew were doing something, even though it might be totally legal, if the world will look down on him for it then it is a chilul Hashem. As jphone said, Vehyisem Nikiim.

    #650644

    Why not hold on to the proof sets, as they (coins minted in the different mints) could be valuable and redeemable in the future. If I purchased a Proof Set, I would hold on to the Proof Set and purchase a Coin Colectors Book in the Future. Slightly off the subject it is similar to acquiring Sheets of Stamps from the Post Office. There to I would also purchase a Stamp Collectors Book, stamps like coins can be worth a lot of money if they are rare and in good conditon. I know this is hording Coins (or stamps as the case may be) out of Circulation, but purchasing a proof set at the Mint or Stamps from the Post Office are not the usual way of acquiring Coin Money and Stamps. I consider both of them Collector Items.

    #650645

    yankdownunder-

    I know a bit about coin collecting.

    There are proof sets that are rare and valuable and there are proof sets that are quite common and not worth much.

    Coin collecting as a hobby is fun, but difficult to make money doing.

    There are many, many unscrupulous dealers willing to take your money and sell you overvalued, overpriced and overgraded coins.

    I recommend the PCGS site for info.

    A full sheet of stamps or a corner block is worth more than an individual stamp if the stamps are collectible.

    In the 40’s there was such a run on collecting full sheets of stamps that there are still many of some varieties available at approximately face value.

    So as not to take this thread totally off-topic, if anyone is interested enough to start a coin-collecting thread I’d be happy to answer questions there.

    I have only minimal knowledge of stamp-collecting.

    #1503778

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is stealing.

    #1503808

    jakob
    Participant

    Pure dishonest and corrupt and can even C”V be a chillul Hashem

    #1503818

    gilda
    Participant

    If you have section 8 parents and close family members can’t own the house.

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