Daas Torah

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  • #612886

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    I want to hear people thoughts on it

    #1076459

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    How far does it extend?

    #1076460

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????

    And it shows.

    #1076461

    daas torah=knowing torah

    #1076463

    Logician
    Participant

    Either this thread will stay this dull, or it will get exciting and then be closed.

    It’s no fun just hitting the “approve” button all day.

    #1076464

    daas torah means torah knowledge

    #1076465

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    I made it to start a machaa(hence my name) but its nfortunately dull

    #1076466

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    How are you defining Daas Torah?

    #1076467

    as Torah knowledge

    #1076468

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So people have Torah knowledge. O.k. So it would be a good idea for people to ask those with Torah knowledge to share what the Torah says with those who do not have (as much) Torah knowledge.

    #1076469

    And it would be a good idea for people to ask those with greater Torah knowledge to share how the Torah wants us to behave in various life situations.

    #1076470

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “And it would be a good idea for people to ask those with greater Torah knowledge to share how the Torah wants us to behave in various life situations”

    Indeed. But does that mean that what they say is definitively how the Torah wants us to behave?

    #1076471

    NAT-You ruined everything.

    #1076472

    Logician
    Participant

    Why not as “Vayeida es ishto” (not quote) ? One who has real connection to Torah, not just knowledge, has “da’as” Torah.

    #1076473

    “Indeed. But does that mean that what they say is definitively how the Torah wants us to behave?”

    Even if it can’t be asserted definitively, it is definitively better to trust their judgement of how the Torah wants us to behave than to trust our own judgement on that. They are much more likely than us to be correct in knowing how the Torah wants us to behave. And if you think they are wrong in advising what the Torah wants, in all likelihood it is us who is wrong.

    #1076474

    We are koneh the Torah by having emunas chachomim. Of course you should listen to one who is greater than you in learning, if discussing a shailah or Torah topic.

    #1076475

    simcha613
    Participant

    Two points:

    1. Gedolim and Talmidei Chachamim may have better insights in the Torah and how the Torah would address a given situation but that probably only works as long as you have knowledge of the situation. For example, while the Torah can be used as a guide to making medical decisions, that only works if you have complete understanding of the medical realities first. Then the Torah (as interpreted by Daas Torah) can be used to make a decision on what should be done. More often than not, Daas Torah will defer to someone who is an expert in the medical field. Daas Torah does not make a Gadol an expert in medicine. The same holds true for other areas like politics, economics, etc… Without an understanding, an expertise in these subjects, Daas Torah can only go so far in telling you what the right thing to do in the situation is.

    2. Who is Daas Torah? Who decided who is “gadol enough” to make a decision with that type of weight? Who decided that R’ Shteinman or R’ Kanievsky’s understanding of what HKB”H would want done in a certain situation is clearer than R’ Schachter, R’ Aviner, or R’ Lichtenstein? In many situations where it’s reported that Daas Torah tell the tzibur there is a certain way to act (and think) more often than not there are other Gedolim who also should qualify as Daas Torah who disagree. So it’s not fair to say Daas Torah is this, if you’re picking and choosing who Daas Torah is based on what you want to hear.

    #1076477

    Trust 789
    Member

    Disclaimer: My opinion

    Daas Torah applies to halacha. You have a sheilah on halacha, go to a rav who can pasken.

    As for advice, go to someone who knows your situation very well (or you can explain things well to), and who you can trust. Doesn’t have to be a rav or gadol or anyone who is called “daas Torah”.

    If it can be one of the real gadolim of today, then do so. That is called “daas chochom”. Not daas Torah.

    #1076478

    the plumber
    Member

    Trust 789. That’s not true, that’s simply asking ahalacha question because he knows more halacha than you.

    We all have to live our lives according to the way the torah wants us to live our lives, unfortunately, we, on our low level, don’t understand the torah fully like they did in past generations. So we turn to our gedolim to help us out.

    Now they’re not perfect, but it’s the best we can do.

    Worse case scenario, they’re wrong, and when the beis din shel maalah asks us, we did all we can.

    But we MUST realize that wer must try as hard as we can to get the way we live our lives (not just halacha shailos) from the torah and those who represent the torah.

    #1076479

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Worse case scenario, they’re wrong, and when the beis din shel maalah asks us, we did all we can.”

    Who says that following them (in a situation where you have reason to believe that their advice is not the best course of action) is the best we can do?

    #1076480

    Trust 789
    Member

    But we MUST realize that wer must try as hard as we can to get the way we live our lives (not just halacha shailos) from the torah and those who represent the torah.

    Absolutely! But what does that mean, “those who represent the Torah?” Just because someone is a talmud chochom, even a huge talmud chochom, does not mean all their actions and advice is what the Torah wants. We should hope that it does, but it is their own limited beliefs as human beings. As I said, make certain the person has the knowledge pertaining to the situation, is someone you can trust to have your best interests in mind. If it seems like the person is not looking to have your best interest in mind, or if it seems they don’t have the whole picture, then look elsewhere. Not just listen because “they represent the Torah”.

    You said, we must try. I agree with that 100%.

    #1076481

    the plumber
    Member

    Obviously, if the person is a huge talmid chacham and he’s completely crum (Marcus jastrow), he had no dt. But we have to assume that our own rebbeim are not just leading us on, they are actually giving us the best advice possible

    #1076482

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “Worse case scenario, they’re wrong, and when the beis din shel maalah asks us, we did all we can.”

    Did someone who asked a Gadol in 1939 what to do and the Gadol said stay put and the person ran away and was saved, Did they do an Averiah?

    #1076483

    the plumber
    Member

    Idk if they did an aveirah. But it’s very shayich, they were not supposed to be saved

    #1076485

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Obviously, if the person is a huge talmid chacham and he’s completely crum (Marcus jastrow), he had no dt”

    You seem to call people Krum often. Can you define what makes someone krum?

    #1076486

    jbaldy22
    Member

    the plumber

    I dont mean to be sarcastic, but how far does your vision of daas torah extend and at what point is ones own daas supposed to step in. Your mehalech of daas torah seems to be almost chasidish in nature.

    #1076487

    the plumber
    Member

    What makes someone crum is if they hav intense views that are against daas torah. Meaning they don’t have a rebbe who they t urn to when needed.

    #1076488

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    But why does Daas Torah extend to non Torah decisions such as finances and general life decisions?

    #1076489

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “What makes someone crum is if they hav intense views that are against daas torah”

    Where do you draw the line between “against daas torah” and “machlokes in daas torah”?

    #1076490

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also you can’t say that the definition of krum is having intense views that are against daas torah if you previously said that (part of) the definition of daas torah is not being crum.

    #1076491

    Sam2
    Participant

    the plumber: You definition of Daas Torah and those who have it are a tautology (you have it because you are a Talmid Chacham who isn’t Krum- and the definition of Krum is not having Da’as Torah). Can you please define what Krum and Daas Torah mean in a manner that means something?

    #1076492

    There’s no way to define in words a clear cut explanation of who has Daas Torah. Maybe the rabbi in the corner shul, being a talmid chochom, is the same Daas Torah as Rav Shteinman? How do you explain why he is not? You know it when you see it. When the world accepts someone as one of the greats in the Torah world, he is Daas Torah. And he is greater than other talmidei chachomim.

    #1076493

    charliehall
    Participant

    “why does Daas Torah extend to non Torah decisions such as finances and general life decisions?”

    We don’t like to admit it, but there is a huge amount of halachah regarding personal and business finance that many of us ignore. You practically need yadin yadin semicha to be a frum businessman.

    #1076494

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “You practically need yadin yadin semicha to be a frum businessman.”

    I believe there is a quote attributed to R’ Yisrael Salanter which goes something like “you need to know choshen mishpat cold in order to go into business, and if you know choshen mishpat cold why would you waste it by going into business?”

    #1076495

    Avi K
    Participant

    Charlie, that is true so far as questions such as interest and owning shares of food companies during Pesach are concerned. However, Tora knowledge does not make one an advisor as to which of two permitted stocks to buy. In fact, any posek will consult professionals in the field before paskening. For example, Rav Moshe asked an electrician what would happen if someone tovelled a toaster.

    #1076496

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ???

    Someone who acquires Torah knowledge acquires the intangible we call “wisdom”.

    #1076497

    oomis
    Participant

    I have met a lot of people who have Daas Torah, but are still humble enough and wise enough to recognize their intellectual limitations. They call upon people who know more about specific issues than they do, all the time. Aizehu chacham, halomeid m’kall adam.

    #1076498

    the plumber
    Member

    And we wonder why our children are suddenly all “at risk”…

    #1076499

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Tora knowledge does not make one an advisor as to which of two permitted stocks to buy.”

    Permission to buy stocks at all is a chiddush, as neither the Torah nor Chazal ever heard of limited liability. 😉

    Given that most mutual funds can’t even match the market average, it is questionable whether there are any real experts on investments other than Warren Buffett! If you actually know something about the business, the technology, and the management, you might know enough to be a wise investor, but that would be few of us.

    But my comment was really regarding operating your own business. There is so much that is completely acceptable by secular law that is not permitted halachically. The Torah’s standards regarding transparency, treatment of employees, pricing, and other areas are far higher than is standard in the market today. Rabbi Dr. Aaron Levine z’tz’l wrote that had the economy followed Torah standards of transparency there could have been no crash in 2008.

    “any posek will consult professionals in the field before paskening. For example, Rav Moshe asked an electrician what would happen if someone tovelled a toaster.”

    Absolutely! Rav Moshe z’tz’l was a model of such. He also consulted prominent physicians before paskening on medical matters.

    I have on very rare occasions been asked questions by a rabbi on areas of my expertise.

    #1076500

    Trust 789
    Member

    ZD: Did someone who asked a Gadol in 1939 what to do and the Gadol said stay put and the person ran away and was saved, Did they do an Averiah?

    Plumber: Idk if they did an aveirah. But it’s very shayich, they were not supposed to be saved

    This is krum thinking.

    P.S. I would assume they did a mitzvah. A person must do all they can to save their life.

    #1076501

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ???

    Someone who acquires Torah knowledge acquires the intangible we call “wisdom”.

    Unfortunately, wisdom also means knowing when to say “I don’t know”, or “I need more information”, instead of making assumptions and therefore providing incorrect, inappropriate or incomprehensible answers.

    Avos 5:6

    ???? ????? ?????, ????? ????: ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ????? ???? ???? ???? ????, ????? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ??????, ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ????; ????????? ?????

    There is no such Rambam!

    (AKA “The Turtle moves!” or “E pur si muove”)

    #1076502

    Trust 789
    Member

    What makes someone crum is if they hav intense views that are against daas torah. Meaning they don’t have a rebbe who they t urn to when needed.

    According to you, a person a person who is a talmud chochom (who we will assume is your rebbe, since one is asking advice from him) who doesn’t have your best interest in mind, is krum and therefore does not have daas Torah. And what is krum, someone who doesn’t have a rebbe when they need to.

    You are not answering tzim zach.

    #1076503

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, your esoteric references notwithstanding, I agree that part of what is called “Daas Torah” is (or at least should be) the wisdom to know one’s limitations.

    #1076504

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Sam

    Just for the record tautology is not the same as circular reasoning.

    Tautology means unnecessarily repeating an idea.

    “Daas Torah” is like “normal” – something for which there IS an absolute value, (“derech hamemutza”, whatever that is) but which people like to define subjectively.

    #1076505

    Logician
    Participant

    zahavasdad – here we go again.

    Why do you assume that because the result was not to your liking, that the decision must have been wrong ?

    Do we need to go thru the lists again, of Gedolim who were clearly aware of the true situation in Europe and still didn’t say to leave ?

    R’ Shach would say over a story from… perhaps R’ Chaim, I don’t remember. Guy had a dream that he drowned while crossing a certain bridge. R’ Chaim told him to ignore it, as we pasken that we don’t listen to dreams [please: the psak is not the point]. He repeatedly had the dream, and he kept giving him the same pask. He traveled over that bridge… and drowned! Family came to R’ Chaim, obviously upset. He told them: My psak was correct, and I would do the same even after having this knowledge!

    #1076506

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    Ok but people get so carried away with Daas Torah I don’t get why a knowledge in Torah means that you are the top consultant for completely non Torah issues (ok business was a bad example)

    #1076507

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra, your esoteric references notwithstanding, I agree that part of what is called “Daas Torah” is (or at least should be) the wisdom to know one’s limitations.

    So we agree that today, practically no one has Daas Torah 🙂

    And I would have thought you (based on your location) would understand the reference to “Daas Torah” unmasked as a bluff.

    #1076508

    Trust 789
    Member

    Guy had a dream that he drowned while crossing a certain bridge. R’ Chaim told him to ignore it, as we pasken that we don’t listen to dreams [please: the psak is not the point]. He repeatedly had the dream, and he kept giving him the same pask. He traveled over that bridge… and drowned! Family came to R’ Chaim, obviously upset. He told them: My psak was correct, and I would do the same even after having this knowledge!

    I highly doubt this story is true.

    #1076509

    jbaldy22
    Member

    Logician

    I have heard the story and believe you are misapplying it. Rav Chaim had no idea the guy was going to die. Even if he knew the guy was going to die the dream had nothing to do with it as chalomos ain bo mamash. The point of his psak was he would have said chalmos ain bo mamash regardless of the result. Not that if he knew the guy was going to die he would have sent him anyway.

    #1076510

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Guy had a dream that he drowned while crossing a certain bridge. R’ Chaim told him to ignore it, as we pasken that we don’t listen to dreams [please: the psak is not the point]. He repeatedly had the dream, and he kept giving him the same pask. He traveled over that bridge… and drowned! Family came to R’ Chaim, obviously upset. He told them: My psak was correct, and I would do the same even after having this knowledge!

    How come you never repeat the stories where the shaila was asked what to do (when then Nazis came) and the psak was stay and you will be safe and then the Nazis came and sent the person to Auschwitz, and there are such stories.

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