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  • #1076669
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Aharon Lichtenstein (?? ??? ???, ??????? ????):

    ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? “?? ????” ????

    “???? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ????????????? ????????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??????? ?’ ??-??????? ????”.

    ????? ???????? (??, ?”?) ??? ????? ??, ??? ???? ??

    ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????, ?? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???????? ???????, ??????? ?? ????????. ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ????, ?????? “???? ?????” ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????.

    ???? ????: ??????? ?????? ?? “??? ????” ?? ??????? ????? ???????, ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? “?? ????”.

    #1076670
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    would you lein the wrong parsha and bentch the wrong day as rosh chodesh?

    This reminds me of the exchange between Charlie Hall and Joseph four years ago.

    Dr. Hall asked:

    Would you eat a piece of meat that the author of one of your sources had told you was kosher, when you yourself had seen it taken from the carcass of a pig?

    To which Joseph responded:

    Yes, if the posek declared it kosher after having heard my testimony to that effect.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-learning-science-spiritually-dangerous#post-99185

    Completely blew my mind.

    The Wolf

    #1076671
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also from that article:

    ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? (????? ???, ???? ?

    ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????: ????? “?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???”. ??? ????, ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???, ??? ????? ?? ????? ???. ????? ?????, ????? ???? ?”? ???????, ???? ?’????’ ?’???????’. ?? ?? ??? ?? ???, ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ????? ??? ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? ?????!

    #1076672

    I would like to quote from one of the greatest that went through YU!

    Who are the eyes of the people?

    (The Leaders of Israel #747)

    And in fancy sefer-form (thanks to Google-translate) it would be something like:

    ?? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??????

    ????? (????? 15:25) ??? ??????: “???? ????”. ??? ?? ??? ???? (???????) ?? ????? ????????, ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????. ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??”?, ??? ???? ?????. ???? ?? ??????????? ????????? “??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???????”. ??? ????? ????? ???????. ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????; ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? “???? ????” ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????.

    #1076673
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And who is the author of this statement?

    #1076674
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Kook (Orot Hatorah 5:4):

    ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????

    ?? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??????

    ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????

    #1076675
    Sam2
    Participant

    LF: According to you, why is there a Parsha of Par He’elam Davar in the Torah? Better yet, how can Machlokes even exist? Isn’t someone arguing with a Gadol somewhere in there?

    #1076676
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    The response that I have heard people give to your question is that yes theoretically the Gedolim could be wrong/make a mistake, but in practice WE are not allowed to decide that they are wrong. I’m not saying I agree, but this is something I’ve heard.

    #1076677
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: Of course we can’t decide that they are wrong (well, unless we have a Ra’aya Muchrach from Shas, which if it actually is presumably they would be Chozer if we presented it to them). But we are certainly allowed to ask questions. LF seems to think that we can’t do that. (This reminds me of the comment I once heard someone make when they called someone a Kofer for asking a Kashya from a Gemara on a P’sak of R’ Chaim Kanievsky.)

    #1076678

    Sam2, PAA,

    I’ve purposefully taken a back seat to the most important orders of the day, proceedings going on over here in the CR, due to the communal tzara, calamity, distress of our brethren in Eretz Yisroel, and our natural participation in our national sorrow.

    So I’ll be brief.

    Yes, there’s a mountain of a difference between two Gedolim arguing, two lions engaged in ?????? ?? ????, and some conceited, arrogant boor trying his hand at judging, reckoning with, appraising a Torah leader. Sure, as I wrote earlier, everyone down here makes mistakes, some big some small, that’s what being human is all about, but it’s not for the layman (or woman), commoner, to evaluate, appraise a Gadol.

    That’s elementary to any boy starting out learning Gemarah (in an Orthodox surrounding), there’s a ?????, a tradition, ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????. No, we don’t break ranks, no matter how smart we think we are. There’s more, much more to Torah than brains. They say Esav had more brain-power than Yaakov, where did it get him? OK, so his head rolled into … No, Torah is not just a “subject”, so that the so-called “smarty” gets to call the shots. There’s a Rebbe – Talmid tradition, along with the way of life the Torah is supposed to impart into one’s being. So at elementary grade any child knows one Amorah does not argue with a Tanna. Same with Rishonim and Achronim etc., down to this day. Indeed that is our ????, our existence, how we (us commoners) never swayed from our cherished leaders.

    Sure, you bet, there was always a here and a there, where a naughty, disobedient, insolent individual disobeyed and rebelled, the first actually in this week’s Parsha – and all his “talmidim” followed (or did teshuva in time). But the general populace was always faithful and a true to its’ leaders.

    #1076679
    Sam2
    Participant

    LF: I think you have some basics right but you are taking things too far. Any Chacham Shehigia L’hora’ah is allowed to argue on any other Chacham Shehigia L’hora’ah, even if one is greater than the other. The Gemara says that a Chacham Shelo Higia L’Hora’ah who Paskens destroys the world. You are extending things farther and saying there is a subgroup here of people who no one is allowed to argue on. That group has not existed since we lost the Sanhedrin HaGadol.

    No one is claiming that national matters of importance shouldn’t be decided by Talmidei Chachamim or that the biggest Talmidei Chachamim shouldn’t handle the biggest Shailos. Some just think that the concept has been extended too far. To quote the Gemara, the Torah gave each of us permission to say that something is Kosher, etc. There are parts of life that we are expected to live on our own.

    I’m curious, by the way. Why do you think that Amoraim can’t argue on Tannaim and Rishonim can’t argue on Amoraim?

    #1076680
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Little Froggie:

    We can’t read on if you don’t tell us either the name of the author or the name of the sefer. I’m also still waiting for an answer to my question about the wrong parsha or the wrong day of Rosh Chodesh.

    #1076681
    Trust 789
    Member

    The Gemara says that a Chacham Shelo Higia L’Hora’ah who Paskens destroys the world.

    What does this mean, and where does it say it?

    #1076682

    This is just the mesorah we were brought up with, going back to Sinai (was there!).

    #1076683
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Trust 789:

    It’s in Sotah 22a:

    ?”? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????

    The Gemara asks:

    ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????

    One of the answers is:

    ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??”? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ????? ????

    #1076684
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “One will not find Rishonim arguing on Amoraim, nor Amoraim arguing on Tanoim. All in the same vein, we always looked up in deference to the Torah greats of the previous generation. We were taught that to off-handedly “answer” Rabbi Akiva Eiger’s kasha, means to show one’s stupidity. There was never a break away to this mesorah until recently, where it was introduced a wave, direction, sense of questioning, doubting, skepticism towards Gedolim.”

    R’ Shmuel Hanagid (Mavo Hatalmud):

    ????? ??? ?? ??’ ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????… ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????

    #1076685
    benignuman
    Participant

    In the times leading up to the destruction of the Bais Hamikdosh, may it be rebuilt soon, there was a Sanhedrin and there could be one official policy of the Chachomim. Unfortunately that is no longer the case and there are very few issues for which there is unanimity among Talmidei Chachomim.

    Sam2,

    I think you know very well that it is the pashtus of the Gemara in many places (e.g. Rav Tanna u’paleg) that Amoraim cannot argue on Tannaim in Halacha matters unless they have a Tanna to rely on.

    #1076686
    Sam2
    Participant

    ben: I know it’s true. I just wanted to know LF’s reason why. The simple explanation for this whole debate is that he/she assumes the Chazon Ish’s answer while others take the Rambam’s and Kessef Mishnah’s approach.

    Just a point, by the way. Whenever you try claiming an unwritten Mesorah for anything, you are treading very, very dangerous waters. One of the most important parts of our Mesorah (post-Gemara) is that everything you say is verifiable-i.e. you can trace it back to the Gemara, who we believe had a direct Mesorah from Sinai. Thus, everything one says in Torah goes back to Sinai. When you claim a “Mesorah” that you can’t read into a Gemara, you are essentially claiming that you know something that the Tannaim and Amoraim didn’t choose to write down. Basically, you could make up anything and claim “Mesorah” and call out other people for not having it. That’s not the way Yiddishkeit works. In fact, it is that the exact opposite is true (that any claim that anyone makes has to be backed up in what we now have written in Torah Sheba’al Peh) that has allowed Torah and Yiddishkeit to thrive and remain unbroken even in this long Galus. You may even be right about this unwritten Mesorah. But it is a potentially lethal game to play.

    #1076687
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Regarding arguing with earlier authorities:

    ??”? ???”? ???? ?:

    ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????’ ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????’ ???? ?????? ???? ????’ ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????

    And also ??”? ???”? ???? ??:

    ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???????6 ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?????’ ???????? ?”? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????????? ????? ????? ?????????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????’ ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ?? ???????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???’ ????

    #1076688
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The reason Achronim refrained from mixing in to Machloksim of the Rishonim is because they recognized the greatness of the earlier generations and they knew their own ???. Since it is not a Din but rather it was self understood there were exceptions to the rule.

    In Divrei Agada, everyone has a right to say his own Pirush. You aren’t breaking away from anything when you have your own Pshat in why Yaakov sent nuts to Yosef in Mitzrayim, and whether Avraham Avinu recognized that they Malachim. These aren’t aspects of Emuna either. Taking this freedom and applying it to aspects of Emuna, when you actually are breaking away from the Emuna of Klal Yisroel, is a tremendous leap. It is a leap that the Rambam obviously did not make.

    #1076689
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Who is applying it to emuna?

    #1076690
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, what exactly is the unwritten Mesorah. You said that nobody is arguing that the Rabbonim lead the generation. I assume you meant like Rebbe Yochanan ben Zakkai or like the Rabanan of that generation. Like Shmuel (the Amora) in his generation and like Mar Yehuda in his, who although were not the Reish Galusa, they were the ones to negotiate with the king. And the Jewish position on things were always decided by the Rabbonim. You said that nobody argues on this.

    Is it business advice that you have a problem with? Is it coming for a Bracha that you have a problem with?

    #1076691
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: It’s LF’s claim that anyone against the expansion of “Daas Torah” doesn’t have a proper Mesorah that really bothers me.

    And I think you might be overreaching as well. I recall R’ Schachter once mentioning that the Melech wasn’t the top of the Sanhedrin because different talents are needed in leading the generation politically and in Paskening Halachah.

    #1076692
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    No doubt that it was not the job of Sanhedrin to put up street lights. But declaring war did have to pass them. The Gemara tells of the Sanhedrin going to meet Nevuchadnetzar in the time of Tzidkiyahu (although that Gemara seems to weave in and out of a literal depiction). Lay leaders are useful and important but the direction and official position of the Jewish community can only be that of its Rabbonim. This is the way it always was, and you do seem to agree. I don’t think LF took it further than this.

    #1076693
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    (??? ????? (?????:

    ?? ?? ??????

    ????? ???????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??

    ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????

    ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??

    ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????

    ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???????

    ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ???”? ????

    ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ????

    ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???”?

    ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??????

    ???? ?? ???

    #1076694
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So we can ignore the Takkanos from the Amaroim. Yippeeeeee!!!!!

    #1076695
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “So we can ignore the Takkanos from the Amaroim. Yippeeeeee!!!!!”

    No. In the part that I didn’t quote he explains why the Talmud is binding.

    #1076696
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: At least acknowledge that the Dor Revi’i was attacked for these Shittos and that he is on the fringe of accepted thought, if not outright rejected.

    HaLeiVi: LF’s claim that there is an unwritten Mesorah of a special trust in Talmidei Chachamim is, frankly, scary. Not because it’s wrong, but because we can never claim unwritten Mesorahs. Why is that unwritten Mesorah any better than the “Tikkun Olam” Mesorah of the Reform or the “Hashem obviously wanted us to be nice people at the expense of Halachah” Mesorah of the Open Orthodox? We have a corpus of Torah Sheba’al Peh that contains our entire Mesorah. Once you go outside of that, you are lost.

    #1076697

    Oh, wow, I was busy for the past few days, and didn’t not have time to waste (still don’t, but..)

    PAA, the sefer I quoted from was from Rabbi Miller’s “Awake My Glory”. He was one of the greatest giants of the previous generation, (a musmach of YU, I think). A genuine Godol bTorah, giant of a baal musar, hashkafa, real chochma etc. (I have a niggling feeling he doesn’t need little me’s approbation)

    Sam2, you too can look up in his books. I didn’t make up a thing, he writes a whole lot more than the little I posted.

    Sorry, I subscribed to this “dangerous”, “scary”, “potentially lethal game” way of life at Matan Torah (couple of years ago), so did most of us. ???? ????? and ???? ???? ?? And that is what and how I was taught.

    #1076698
    jbaldy22
    Member

    Little Froggie

    the mamar you cited of rebbi domeh lmalach is referring to a rebbi muvhak as is a lot of the rest of the stuff you mentioned which is the antithesis of the current incarnation of daas torah. No one is claiming that one shouldn’t have a rebbe/rav. The discussion here is in regards to the current modern day concept that daas torah has the equivalence of sanhedrin even in regards to mundane matters and that it comes from a divine metaphysical source that one is mandated to listen to even if the rav is not in your locale and is not one’s rebbi muvhak. As PAA and Sam2 have previously mentioned this is a notion that isn’t mentioned in the rishonim and seems to have an extremely modern source.

    #1076699
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Little Froggie:

    I am not sure what the quote(s) from R’ Avigdor Miller accomplishes. I never denied that in recent times there are those who support the notion of Daas Torah. When you said “I would like to quote from one of the greatest that went through YU!” I thought that you were trying to show that even YU folk agree to daas torah which would be more of a chiddush (though still not a terribly huge chiddush) but I hardly think R’ Avigdor Miller represents YU hashkafa.

    #1076700
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also I think you misunderstand Sam’s point. I think what he is saying is that it is dangerous to claim an oral mesorah because then anyone can just get up and say anything they want and claim that it’s a mesorah – aaaiii there’s no evidence of such a mesorah… Well now it doesn’t matter because there isn’t supposed to be evidence of the mesorah.

    #1076701
    Sam2
    Participant

    LF: Please, please, tell me what gave you the impression that I “have nothing against those who are trying to reinvent, modernize, adjust, downgrade Yiddishkeit”. I would love to know where you got that from. I promise you, you won’t find it. And, frankly, I find it insulting that you said such a thing and that the mods let it through without at least some sort of attempt to substantiate your attack. I intentionally did not address the paragraph attacking “unwritten Mesorahs” to you because I wanted to show I was attacking a concept, not you as a person. But please, back up your argument or apologize.

    #1076702
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam and PAA, you have just destroyed the concept of Torah shebaal peh.

    Think about what I said as you enjoy your cholent this Shabbos.

    #1076703
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I very, very clearly said that this is true after the Chasima of the Gemara. We assume that the Gemara and Midrashim from the Tannaim and Amoraim contain the corpus of Torah Sheba’al Peh that was transmitted from Sinai until then. That is an Ikkar Emunah. But you cannot claim any oral tradition outside that because no one can disprove you. (And, in fact, the Gemara tells us that Torah Sheba’al Peh is referenced in Torah Shebiksav, presumably for this very reason.)

    #1076704
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Sam and PAA, you have just destroyed the concept of Torah shebaal peh”

    No. Once Torah Shebaal Peh is written down it is dangerous to quote an oral mesorah that may be against what is written down.

    #1076705

    Sam2, I apologize.

    Now, to back up my argument.. (na, I won’t do that after Parshas Korach.. I call it quits. Hurray!! I lost!!)

    #1076706
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your argument would have just as compelling before Torah shebaal peh was ever written, and I’m sure the tzedokim and such used it (not ch”v to put you in their camp).

    Torah shebaal peh didn’t disappear. It was always dangerous, and continues to be so.

    ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??

    So be careful who you trust.

    #1076707
    benignuman
    Participant

    Little Froggie,

    Are you sure that the statement of Rabbi Avigdor Miller ztz”l wasn’t written regarding the Sanhedrin and not statements by Gedolim today?

    #1076708
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Seemingly in favor of Daas Torah (although one can perhaps argue that this is also only talking in a halachic context) Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Shoel K’inyan):

    ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???

    #1076709
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, you seem to be mixing Messora with Shita. Messora is what Klal yisroel has been doing and a Shita is what I feel or what I personally heard from my Rebbe. Mesora is our core and what we learn keeps that in check. It is Mesora that stopped us from following most of Open Orthodoxy’s technically-within-the-framework inventions.

    There is a lot of misinformation here. As seen earlier in this thread, it was assumed by many outside observers that Daas Torah means that we would ask a Rov for a medical opinion. People rail against “Daas Torah” without knowing what it is.

    The next argument is to invent a Chiluk of Sannhedrin to later Rabbonim, although the Pasuk says Hakohen Asher Yihyeh Bayamim Haheim and Chazal say, Yiftach Bedoro Kishmuel Bedoro. There are things that we know can’t be done without Smicha and Beis Din but that is not a liscense to make up the rest.

    And, as I said earlier, Rabbonim today and Beis Din in the past did not decide on street lights and road repairs. Civil matters are left to civil servants. However, they are the ones in charge of the Torah’s attitude towards matters when an issue comes up. If Rabbonim announce that it is Asssur to rally behind an immoral candidate even at the cost of losing funding, or if they say that funding a Yeshiva to advance Torah learning is more important than an individual’s choices, these are not ‘mundane matters’. These are situations in which you are getting their ‘Psak’ in Hilchos Chilul Hashem and Limud Hatorah.

    #1076710
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I explicitly said why it was different. And that that is probably the reason we have Remazim to Torah Sheba’al Peh in Chumash-so that it cannot be denied. When we had a Chazal with a direct, unbroken oral Mesorah the Mesorah was oral. Now that we assume they wrote down the entirety of that oral Mesorah for us, how is there room for any other unwritten Mesorah?

    #1076711
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We assume no such thing.

    #1076712
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What do you mean by entirety? Assos Sefarim Harbeh Ein Keitz. In fact, we find areas where Bavli skipped something and we picked it up from the Yerushalmi (although Rishonim are indeed reluctant to do this, and they’ll rather look all over and dig for a Remez in Bavli).

    Now, although if the Gemara left out a necessary definition on something menntioned in a Mishna, that would be telling, this doesn’t mean that every definition had to have spelled out.

    Torah Shel Baal Peh has what to do even after we see the words of the Gemara. Our Sefarim shelves are pretty packed. Many decisions come from a posek’s take on a Gemara or Meforash, but more often than we realize, the reading is based on what was passed down. We can’t bypass our Rebbes just because we own a copy of the Talmud.

    LF’s usage of Mesora is no different than saying ‘we don’t follow that’ or similar statements.

    #1076713
    benignuman
    Participant

    HaLeivi,

    The distinction between the Sanhedrin and post-Sanhedrin is not “invented,” it is the meaning of the posuk. Look up the Rambam’s introduction to Mishnah Torah.

    Yiftach and Shmuel were each the head of the Bais Din HaGadol in their days.

    After the close of the Talmud every town and city is governed, in matters of halacha by its own Bais Din.

    I am not saying that there isn’t an inyan of Yiftach B’doro even as it pertains to the individual Bais Din or Posek, but that cannot create binding decisions on the entirety of Klal Yisroel.

    I do agree with you, however, that the realm of psak halacha is signficantly larger than people sometimes think it is and the items you raised are certainly within the realm of psak.

    #1076714
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Halevai that your paragraph of “There is a lot of misinformation here. As seen earlier in this thread, it was assumed by many outside observers that Daas Torah means that we would ask a Rov for a medical opinion. People rail against “Daas Torah” without knowing what it is.” was true. If it is, great. I would humbly ask LF if that is what (s)he means by Da’as Torah. I have problems with the theoretical “Daas Torah” concept that even the Mili D’alma of a “Gadol” is Halachically binding on everyone. But if that doesn’t exist, then Shalom Al Yisrael.

    I still strongly protest any claims of any unwritten Mesorahs, though, for the reasons I explained.

    #1076715
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haleivi:

    The distinction is not made up. The pasuk says ?? ????? ???? which seemingly refers to the lischas hagazis. The Rambam holds that it applies only to the Beis Din Hagadol. See the ??????? ??? on sefer hamitzvos ‘??? ????? ??? ?. And see the Mishnas Yaavetz Choshen Mishpat siman 6 where he explains that the machlokes between the Rambam and the Sefer Hachinuch (about whether the obligation to listen applies even to a non-beis din hagadol) is Taluy on the Machlokes between the Rambam and the Ramban regarding whether kiddush hachodesh requires a beis din hagadol. He explains based on the Sifri which comes to include the Bais Din Hagadol in Yavneh, that the Rambam holds that it’s coming to give Yavneh the status of the Beis Din Hagadol whereas the Ramban holds that the status of Beis din Hagadol is determined by ????? ???? and therefore the Sifri is coming to tell us that even though Yavneh does not have the status of the Beis Din Hagadol, you still have to listen to them because the obligation is to listen to the Chachamim in every generation (like the Sefer Hachinuch says).

    benignuman: While it is a machlokes (as I have just shown), the Sefer Hachinuch does in fact invoke Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro.

    #1076716
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, let me ask you, where in sha”s does it say that Torah shebaal peh ended? Because if if doesn’t say it, it by definition can’t be true.

    #1076717
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Ravina V’rav Ashi Sof Hora’ah?

    #1076718
    benignuman
    Participant

    DY,

    I think it depends on what you mean by Torah Shebaal peh. When someone comes up with a chiddush today that is Torah Shebaal peh. What Sam means, I believe, is that psak that is binding on all of Klal Yisroel ended with the Ravina and Rav Ashi.

    It is gemara in Baba Metzia 86a.

    ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????

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