Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

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  • #589172

    gabs
    Member

    Is it better to daven with a hat beyichidus or without a hat with a minyan?

    #1081674

    azi
    Participant

    In who’s opinion?

    #1081675

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    gabs- what kind of answer are you looking for? an excuse to stay home or an excuse that davening without a hat is fine?

    #1081677

    feivel
    Participant

    good question

    ive been confronted by this more than once

    i didnt ask a shaila (should have)

    i davened with a minyan without the hat but was very uncomfortable.

    #1081678

    qaws
    Member

    I asked this question to a poseik and he said that its better to daven with a minyan w/o a hat and jacket.

    #1081679

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Today I saw a boy in shul who was out of school because his shoes tore. He was afraid of showing up at his mesivta in crocs because he thought either he would get thrown out, or people would make fun of him. He was forced to miss an entire day of learning.

    Pretty sad commentary on the attitudes of certain segments of the population.

    #1081680

    qaws
    Member

    What about bentching? Are you supposed to wear a hat? Jacket? Both?

    #1081681

    Joseph
    Participant

    Both.

    What are the circumstances that prevent both a minyan and hat/jacket?

    #1081682

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Why is a hat required for davening? I’m really not well versed on this subject. Once, someone told me it was a matter of requiring a double layer (and thats why married men use their talis instead of a hat). If thats the case, couldn’t you just add a second kippah?

    #1081683

    Yanky55
    Member

    I think it’s a sad commentary on the state of frumkeit today, when a question like this needs to be posed.

    #1081685

    labochur
    Member

    I saw in a sefer that a kollel in my neighborhood asked R’ Chaim Kanievsky this Shaila and he said that it seems to him better with a hat beyichidus. But I saw in a different sefer(I think Ishei Yisroel) b’shem R’ Sheinberg that with a minyan is better.

    #1081686

    tentwenty30
    Member

    interesting topic, but let’s start with the basics … but who says that wearing a hat is required al pi halacha in the first place?

    #1081687

    yossiea
    Member

    moderators,

    Why are you not posting a note by Joseph’s post that people should consult their own rabbi and not rely on Joseph? Where is squeak? Or do only certain people get those edits?

    #1081688

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Yanky is absolutely correct. It should be self-intuitive to every Jew that he should always wear a hat and jacket by davening and bentching (barring extenuating circumstances.)

    #1081689

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Yes, just wear a 2nd yarmulke or even a napkin under your yarmulke better than missing a minyan because you have no hat. And if the minyan doesn’t accept that chas vesholom and does not count you (as opposed to not letting you have the amud but if you need the amud just about anyone would lend you their hat in a normal Chassidish or yeshivish minyan) then why would you want to daven in the Sdoimer Shtibl anyway?

    #1081690

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    i’m with qaws who said–that its better to daven with a minyan w/o a hat and jacket!!!

    by benchin all should wear a hat & jacket too!!!

    #1081691

    jphone
    Member

    I highly doubt R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita said its better to daven biyichidus with a hat than to daven bitzibur without one.

    #1081692

    mdlevine
    Member

    Joseph,

    you posted:

    What are the circumstances that prevent both a minyan and hat/jacket?

    recently the minyon that I doven by was short 2 people. I went outside and to flag down those driving by. With help from HaShem, I managed to get two people to join us. These men were not expecting to be part of a minyon at that time, but they came in and helped us. One of the men did not have his hat with him. This was not the first time that this situation has happened. This is an example of a circumstance for you.

    #1081693

    Joseph
    Participant

    mdlevine,

    Thank You. It seems to me the circumstance you describe would be perfectly acceptable. I also wonder what the circumstance of the original poster was that limited to one or the other.

    #1081695

    tentwenty30
    Member

    considering that my post was not answered, i will re ask it

    #1081696

    notpashut
    Member

    R’ Chaim Kanievsky has letters printed in a few seforim where he says that it’s better to daven b’yechidus with a hat & jacket while R’ Shlomo Zalman Ztz”l held that it’s better to daven with a minyan.

    As far as bentching is concerned, I do not remember the exact nusach but the Mishnah Berurah says something to the effect of “tov” or “nachon” to wear a hat & jacket when bentching.

    #1081697

    RoshYeshivah
    Member

    joseph: what’s the circumstance? “a kashe of a maseh!”

    #1081698

    notpashut
    Member

    Will Hill,

    Well done.

    #1081699

    oomis
    Participant

    No hat, in a minyan, any day. Always better to daven with a minyan. When we davenw ith a klal, even when our own zechusim may fall short, the collective zechusim of the whole shul, give us an edge in our tefilos, that we might not have b’yechidus.

    #1081700

    ujm
    Participant

    tentwenty30, re: mekor for needing hats, etc.

    Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, (megulah)

    sk 4, mb 12

    the mishne berureh is in s’u orach chaim 91 seuf katen 12

    S’O Orach Chaim Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, sk 12 (megulah) [sk 4, mb 12 ?]

    Mishnah Berurah 8:4, citing the Ba”ch, requires two head coverings. (Shulchan Aruch O”Ch 282:2)

    #1081701

    notpashut
    Member

    oomis,

    How do you have the gall to offer an opinion on a subject you know nothing about? Are you a Posek?

    Do you know the mekor for wearing a hat & jacket?

    Do you know which siman in shulchan oruch this subject can be found in?

    When was the last time you went through the sugya?

    When you make comments like that, you only make a fool out of yourself.

    (Almost)Everyone else posting has had the seichel to merely quote Poskim.

    #1081702

    gabs
    Member

    i heard its a machlokes between r chaim kanievsky an rav elyashiv.

    #1081703

    Josh31
    Participant

    48 years ago today the new President took off his hat and it was downhill for the hat business.

    Minhag HaMakom (community dress standards) plays a big role in issues like this.

    If the Rabbi and community leaders dress one way, following them is probably safest.

    #1081704

    labochur
    Member

    jphone: I have it in a sefer that this kollel sent personal shailos, published the answer, and that’s what R’ Chaim said.

    #1081705

    ujm
    Participant

    tentwenty30, re: mekor for needing hats, etc.

    Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, (megulah)

    sk 4, mb 12

    the mishne berureh is in s’u orach chaim 91 seuf katen 12

    S’O Orach Chaim Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, sk 12 (megulah) [sk 4, mb 12 ?]

    Mishnah Berurah 8:4, citing the Ba”ch, requires two head coverings. (Shulchan Aruch O”Ch 282:2)

    #1081706

    kapusta
    Participant

    No, i am not a Rabbi but tefilla is an avoda sheb’lev and i cant imagine why as long as your dressed in a normal fashion (no pun intended) and your wearing a head covering of some sort, G-d wouldn’t want to hear from you as is, and if the purpose of the hat is for extra awareness of His being over you, well whats the davening for then? I understand for the amud maybe but just to daven…?!?!

    #1081707

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Wait – do you need a hat or a head covering? There is a big difference in the two.

    #1081708

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    What about davening in a minyan where some people talk during chazaras hashatz or biyechidus e.g. I work pretty far from NYC and sometimes this becomes an issue as this is the only minyan for mincha for miles (this minyan itself is 15 – 20 minutes from my office).

    #1081710

    cantoresq
    Member

    This thread raises another very important question. If one has only enough money to buy a tallis or a hat, which should he buy?

    #1081711

    labochur
    Member

    SJSinNYC- officially a head covering- so you could daven with a piece of plastic on your head if you really don’t want a hat.

    #1081712

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Have heard in Telze they said not to daven in their yeshiva without a hat.

    #1081713

    notpashut
    Member

    labochur,

    Are you nuts or just kidding?

    #1081715

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Most important: Consult your Rav for guidance on these issues, not “he said, she said” blog posts.

    #1081716

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Will Hill: Self-intuitive??? What exactly is that supposed to mean, and how does it have a halachic basis?

    NotPashut: I didn’t like the tone of your language towards Oomis. Divrei Chachamim Bnachas Nishmaim.

    UJM: Did you notice that the mechaber says even a straw yarmulka is sufficient. The Mishna Berurah prefaces his remarks with the very important word “Byameinu”. He says nowadays (meaning in the days of the Chofetz Chaim, about 75 years ago) since people then walked in the steet with a hat, one should also wear one by davening.

    However, in 2009 when people do not walk in the street with a hat, why in the world shouldn’t it revert back to the mechaber’s din? BTW, I can imagine someone misreading the mishna berurah even worse and coming up with that a din that the mishna berurah holds one must even wear a hat in the street.

    Are you all telling me that the hesder boys who do not wear hats are bad Jews?

    In addition, I will not believe Reb Chaim Kanievsky paskened one should miss minyan unless someone shows me that in black and white. I am talking a teshuvah with sources, not a second or third hand account of what someone asked and the answer he received. Reb Moshe wrote his reasons in his own hand for all to see.

    #1081717

    feivel
    Participant

    joseph

    i forgot it at home

    last Mincha of the day

    #1081718

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    labochur – so why do people make such a big deal about a hat vs any other type of head covering?

    #1081719

    moish01
    Member

    gavra-at-work

    you mean if i went to telze and wanted to daven they would kick me out? i’m sorry, but why does that sound not normal?

    #1081720

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJSinNYC:

    I don’t think they do, from a Halachic perspective. They agree wearing a tallis over the head is the same as a hat, and a baseball cap, fedora, velvet “double cover” Yarmulka and straw hat should all be the same from a halachic standpoint of double covering. (didn’t we have this discussion once already?)

    I believe in Telze it was a Hakpoda of the yeshiva rules, which is another discussion (internet/school).

    #1081721

    squeak
    Participant

    moish01, it depends on how they enforce that rule. If they have spare hats outside the bais medrash so that all visitors without hats can borrow one for davening, fine. If you refuse to take the hat, then they refuse you entry into the shul. If they don’t have the means to help people off the street comply, then I agree it’s a bit wacky.

    I was once in a shul where the minhag hamakom was for all men and boys to wear a tallis. I accepted the tallis they offered me. My friend did not, and was asked to daven in a different shul where the minhagim are to his liking.

    #1081722

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    moish01:

    Their yeshiva, their rules! Don’t ask me.

    Guess you could go and pretend you were not davening, and hide a siddur inside a sefer!

    #1081723

    moish01
    Member

    chill, i was just using myself as an example. i would never step foot in telze and i doubt they would let me past the doorway anyway. but how can you tell someone “sorry, you can’t daven.” would they feel anything if they knew i wouldn’t daven at all if they kicked me out? i wonder.

    (why am i even arguing? i don’t really care)

    #1081724

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1081725

    feivel
    Participant

    i can speak for Telshe in chicago

    if a guest comes in to Daven without a hat, they would not even HINT to him that he should wear one. as far as the rules for the Bachrim, im not certain but they most likely have a rule about Davening with a hat and jacket. i would think that if a boy did so more than once the Mashgiach would have a talk with him.

    #1081726

    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis,

    How do you have the gall to offer an opinion on a subject you know nothing about? Are you a Posek? Do you know the mekor for wearing a hat & jacket?

    Do you know which siman in shulchan oruch this subject can be found in?

    When was the last time you went through the sugya? When you make comments like that, you only make a fool out of yourself. (Almost)Everyone else posting has had the seichel to merely quote Poskim. “

    I actually wrote an entire response to this, then thought better of it, deleted my response, and decided that I would prefer to give klal yisroel a bracha that we should all learn how to speak to each other with better manners.

    #1081727

    feivel
    Participant

    Sj

    its a matter of honoring the Ribono Shel Olam, when you Daven, know before Whom you are standing.

    it’s a matter as well of protocol, and convention. someone surely will say that Hashem doesnt care about externals, only ones heart. but Chazal have taught us that clothing deeply affects ones heart. take a bum off the street, clean him up and put him in a policemans uniform with a badge, and minimal training, and generally he will uphold the law with pride (at least until he becomes corrupted). just tell him that he is obligated to uphold the law and it will be a different story.

    you cant stand before the Ribbono Shel Olam in bluejeans, sandals, a t-shirt and baseball cap the same way you stand before him in a dark suit white shirt tie, and formal hat, especially as it conforms to the conventions of the local Yeshiva community {because of how YOU feel}, the Yiddin who understand the need to set ourselves apart from the nations, externally as well as internally, as is expressed throughout Tanach and Oral Law.

    someone maybe isnt on that madrega, fine, but dont say that is not the madrega we should all aspire to.

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