Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

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  • #1081779
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    oomis, you missed his point. Your “opinion” on a halachic matter is of zero value. There is nothing to be embarrased about. Both notpashut and my own “opinion” on a halachic matter is also worthless.

    Is Oomis following a valid psak? Yes. So there is nothing wrong with stating her opinion. We all do it in every thread. If we didn’t, it would just be a list of:

    Source A

    Rabbi A

    Source B

    Rabbi B

    etc.

    And yes, I value Oomis’ opinion because from what I’ve seen so far, she is smart, stable and has opinions that fall in line with halacha.

    #1081780
    notpashut
    Member

    oomis,

    Joseph took the words right out of my keyboard.

    Anyone who has not “learned the sugya” has no right to offer an opinion on a halachic matter. Your “feeling” has ZERO impact on the halacha & you only embarrass yourself by expressing it without a major disclaimer.

    Your opinion on this issue is worth as much as R’ Chaim’s opinion on how to best create a scrumptious mushroom quiche.

    Leave the Shulchan Aruch issues to those who have been through it a few hundred times.

    #1081781
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Oomis, I feel your pain. You must understand that it is not a reflection on you. Time and time again on this board when certain kannaim come out of the woodwork on a particular issue, they say very hurtful and disparaging remarks to others. I hope they will apologize and change their ways. As you pointed out, embarrassing someone in public is far worse than never wearing a hat once in one’s entire life. (Unless someone can show me where it says that one who doesn’t wear a hat has no chelek in olam haba like it does say about one who is malbin pnei chavero. Look, I could be missing a very important chazal.)

    I addressed this issue many months ago in various coffee room threads.

    After thinking about it, I have come to the conclusion that two psychological factors cause this behavior.

    1) These kannaim worship a very angry G-d. One who created the world and gave the Torah with so many details davka designed to trip up people so he can give himself the supreme pleasure of punishing them in all kinds of sadistic ways. (In truth the world was created so G-d could give of his goodness to people, just like we try to do to our children. Ratzah HKBH lzakos es yisroel, lfichach hirbeh lahem Torah umitzvos. Also, as Hillel said, the entire Torah in a nutshell is to treat one’s fellow man kindly.)

    2) These kannaim imagine that they have a very unique and high place within this angry G-d’s hierarchy, and they are self-appointed ministers to dispense this angry G-d’s wrath, possibly by virtue of their imagined high-levels of learning. (Here again, they forget a chazal which all the rest of us simple Jews say every week, Talmidei chachamim marbim shalom baolam.)

    I and others here have been the target many times of this behavior (including the dedication of an entire thread in our honor about pro-freikeit posters here on YW), but once you realize what generates this behavior, it is rather comical, and you won’t feel as bad as you do now.

    In addition, the silliest thing of all, is that those same commentors who accused you of posting without sources, were davka the ones who said the whole issue is “Self-intuitive”, and who seconded that notion, i.e., based merely on their own feelings without any halachic backing.

    What is even more interesting is that the Mechaber at first writes that there is an opinion that one should not daven bareheaded, and that there is an opinion that one should not go into a shul bareheaded. That seems to imply that there are other opinions that hold one could theoretically daven or go into a shul totally bareheaded (in theory). He then says that a straw yarmulka is sufficient. The Mishna Berurah’s chumra appears to be based on the styles of his times which were different than in the Mechaber’s times.

    One last thought, if Reb Chaim Kanievsky did say one should miss minyan, I would expect a teshuvah with at least six paragraphs.

    1) Showing why hat outweighs tefilah betzibbur.

    2) Showing why hat outweighs kedushah.

    3) Showing why hat outweighs kaddishim.

    4) Showing why hat outweighs borchu.

    5) Showing why hat outweighs krias hatorah.

    6) Even if we prove the above five things individually, we must still prove that hat outweighs the aggregate sum of all of them together.

    If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.

    #1081783
    yossiea
    Participant

    moish,

    One way to daven is just to open your heart and talk. I mean really talk to Hashem. In English, for whatever you need.

    “Hi Hashem, it’s me moish again. I know I’m trying to do X but I could really use your help so what do you say? Also, please let the Mets win the world series. Thanks!”

    That is called davening. Joseph and Squeak might not approve, but if you talk from the heart and just ask/say what is on your mind you might find it easier to daven.

    #1081784
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    areivimzehlazeh:

    Thank you.

    #1081785

    The Mishna Berura in question can be seen here:

    http://www.dailyhalacha.com/MBerura/Images/383.jpg

    The entire sefer can be viewed or downloaded from:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/14170

    (Yasher koach to “hebrewbooks” for making the entire Mishna Berura [as well as many other seforim] available online).

    Nothing that was said here merited rudeness, rancor, or disrespect. There are no opinions or corrections expressed here in a strident manner that could not have been made equally well politely. Machlokes over halocha or learning leshaim shomayim can be invigorating and geshmak. Unpleasantness between frum people is disturbing.

    #1081786
    moish01
    Member

    i guess b, c, and d. i pretty much understand the words.

    #1081787
    moish01
    Member

    or maybe i should modify d. it’s not that i think i’m talking to myself. but why in the world would hashem wanna hear from me? not all the time – but sometimes. like when i’m out with a girl i’m supposed to stop and daven mincha? that’s like breaking the law in the throne room. isn’t it better to not visit the throne room altogether?

    #1081791
    squeak
    Participant

    moish – nope. That’s not what our Chazal teach us. It is better to visit the throne room.

    There is a related story with the Chofetz Chaim. A man came and bought all of his seforim, except for one – the sefer on Shmiras Halashon. The Chofetz Chaim asked him why he didn’t buy that one. The man replied that he had absolutely no chance of keeping even the smallest measure of what is in that sefer. The Chofetz Chaim replied that if he learns the entire sefer, and he is completely unaffected, but at the end of it he thinks for a second “Oy!”, it was worth it.

    Another story (though I forget the Rebbe in the story, I’m sure someone later will add the name):

    A certain Rebbe saw a man at the tisch eating heartily. But before every bite (or plateful, whatever) he would call out “Likovod Shabbos!”. The Rebbe thought to himself, what a faker. He’s eating Likovod der boich (stomach)! In his later years, the Rebbe had a thought of regret. He said imagine after I die, Hashem asks me if everything I ate on Shabbos was Likovod Shabbos. What will I say? No, but at least I wasn’t a FAKER like that guy! That’s not going to win any points.

    Be a faker! Be a hypocrite! It’s better than being less that one!

    On a more mundane note, a quote which you probably will not like is “Do, and you shall be”.

    #1081792
    squeak
    Participant

    Yossiea, I would completely approve, as long as it is done in earnest and not with leitzonus (i.e. if you stick in a line about the Mets, you’re probably not taking God very seriously). Shema can be said in any language (halacha). However, there is a value to praying with the words of the formal tefillos, and those should not be omitted. But the additional supplications that come from the heart are very welcome by God. In English, Yiddish, Hebrew, Spanish, Hungarian, or garbledegook (i.e. a 3 year old can pray too – and mean it).

    #1081793
    Curious
    Member

    yossiea – nice answer.

    #1081794

    ames,

    that was an amazing post above!

    moish,

    the fact that you value davening so much that you don’t feel right doing it if you feel like you’re doing something wrong shows that your heart is in the right place. However, davening is always a mitzvah and Hashem is always happy to hear from you, even if you don’t have kavana and yes, even if you’re out with a girl. If we can’t do something in the best way possible it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it at all.

    I’m not saying that I think you’re a bad guy if you sometimes miss davening, you definitely aren’t, I’m just saying that you shouldn’t feel like there is anything wrong with davening when you’re totally not in the mood and can’t get your heart into it.

    #1081795
    oomis
    Participant

    “If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.”

    Pashuteh Yid – PLEASE, DON’T DO THAT!!!!!!! Then you won’t be able to daven in shul with the kanaim (JK!)

    I thank you very much for your sensitivity to my feelings, but I want to assure you that I long since learned to let insults fall off me. The person who feels the need to make his point, not in a derech eretzdig way, but rather in a way designed to be especially derogatory and embarrassing to another person, is someone who may believe he knows know Mishnah Berurah, but definitely knows ZIP about mitzvos bein adam l’chavero.

    And as I said before, I wonder what R’ Chaim Kanievsky would think of such a yid’s imprudent and intentionally rude remarks.

    I realize that with the diversity on this blog, there are all types of emotions and religious fervor, or lack therof, that may abound. Still, let’s ask ourselves if what Hashem really wants is to see Jews who flamebait each other, just because they CAN, in the very erroneous belief that they are doing something noble for kovod haTorah? Or are they actually doing something very harmful, not only to those whom they intentionally treat with a lack of good middos, but even worse, to themsdelves? Every time we do an action that is clearly not L’shem Shamayim, but merely because we want to push someone’s buttons and show them up, or prove we are right and they are wrong (when it really is not so glatt in this particular case), it causes harm to the neshama of the person who does it.Instead of elevating oneself, it has chalilah the opposite effect.

    There are some really terrific, articulate, witty, and nice people who post here (you, among them). And even when I personally do not agree with someone’s post, mikall melamdei hiskalti. If nothing else, I learn exactly what is the improper way to respond to someone with whom I might disagree.

    #1081796
    oomis
    Participant

    “who eats mushroom quiche? nasty!”

    I DO, and it is YUMMY, especially the way I make it (pareve), with lots of onions and mushroom sauteed together. It can even be served on Pesach, has no starch in it.

    #1081797

    ames,

    thanks but in this case it makes sense that it took you more paragraphs to write it than it took me – you said it sooo much better than I did. But I know what you mean, if Moish’s pet peeves thread had been allowed to stay open, I may have posted that mine is when I write a 10 paragraph manifesto and then someone else makes the same point even more clearly and does it in 2 sentences. ARGH!

    #1081798
    yossiea
    Participant

    Squeak,

    Asking Hashem to let the Mets win is most certainly davening. It should of course not be the main point of your davening, but asking Hashem for ANYTHING is davening. It shows that you realize that Hashem controls the world. According to the Rambam (IIRC), davening is simply asking Hashem for something. If a person feels disconnected to Hashem, or to davening, then even getting a person to talk to Hashem even for something as stupid as a sports game is still something. It’s a “conversation” starter.

    #1081799
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I think Hashem has proven He doesn’t want the Mets to win LOL.

    Moish, I struggle with organized prayer a lot. I find saying someone else’s words really does not convey anything. I say certain things as they are written and then ad lib most of my tefilot. Its much more meaningful when I do. Be careful of when you do it though because there are places during davening that you are not allowed to interupt. I am not an expert on it though – I usually say my tefilot seperate from organized ones. Its important to have an open communication with Hashem.

    #1081800
    moish01
    Member

    WOAH! i go to sleep for an hour and wake up to this? i think i need to read through it all another two times before i comment and regret it later on.

    #1081801
    notpashut
    Member

    Pashuteh,

    1)”Time and time again on this board when certain kannaim come out of the woodwork”

    I find it fascinating that you feel that someone who follows the rulings of the Poskim instead of relying on what “he (or she) thinks” is right is a “kanoi”.

    2)”These kannaim worship a very angry G-d. One who created the world and gave the Torah with so many details davka designed to trip up people so he can give himself the supreme pleasure of punishing them in all kinds of sadistic ways.”

    Hashem is not trying to “trip up” anybody, nor are myself or any others. The issues arise when someone innocently brings up a halachic point that is INCONVENIENT & suddenly all the “moderates” come out of the woodwork & start reffering to “kannoim” & “chumros”. Basically, any halacha they are not interested in keeping needs a “source” (even though a bunch of people say they saw it inside. BTW the sefer is nikiyos v’kavod b’tfilla pg. 90 footnote 5 & pg. 182 Q. 112 – now you’re happy?) & certainly there are “other opinions”.

    3)”I and others here have been the target many times of this behavior”

    Unlike yhose who stick up for the halacha who are always treated with the utmost respect.

    4)”In addition, the silliest thing of all, is that those same commentors who accused you of posting without sources, were davka the ones who said the whole issue is “Self-intuitive”, and who seconded that notion, i.e., based merely on their own feelings without any halachic backing.”

    A)The self intuitive comment was made sarcastically toward an earlier poster for those who didn’t notice.

    B)Halachic backing had already been provided.

    5)”The Mishna Berurah’s chumra appears to be based on the styles of his times which were different than in the Mechaber’s times.”

    For those who didn’t notice R’ Elyasiv & R’Shlomo Zalman hold that one should not miss tefilla b’tzibbur to wear a hat as opposed to R’ Chaim – Clearly, all three are of the opinion that “The Mishna Berurah’s chumra” still applies today.

    Mind you,the big “maikel”, the Tzitz Eliezer (brought in ishei yisroel for those who need a “source”) who entertains the idea that “efsher” (his word) nowadays a hat is not required, states that even if this is so, one would be obligated a “special” yarmulka to be used just for davening.

    6)”One last thought, if Reb Chaim Kanievsky did say one should miss minyan, I would expect a teshuvah with at least six paragraphs…..If such a six-paragraph teshuvah exists I will (figuratively) eat my hat.

    Bli”n I’ll let R’ Chaim know that pushetah yid from the YWN CR thought of six brilliant, ingenious taynas on his psak from his recliner which R’ Chaim was obviously to dumb to think of on his own & I’m sure after I let him know he’ll issue a public retraction in the Yated.

    7)”embarrassing someone in public is far worse than never wearing a hat once in one’s entire life.”

    When someone acts like a clown in public they should not be offended when people laugh at them.

    #1081803
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    ames- all I have to say is: WOW OH WOW! Those were incredibly sincere, open & loving posts. Extremely inspiring- thank you.

    Moish- After all that’s been said, there’s not much for me to add except to enforce what squeak mentioned all the way at the end of a post, as a really small point, that really- IS NO SMALL POINT. It’s the basis of all teshuva- “mitoch lo lishma, buh lishmah” Which roughly means- even if we do a mitzva without the right kavanos/correct reasons, it’s best to do it anyway because eventually we will come to doing it properly/for the right reasons/with the correct kavanos. First start to do it so that you get used to doing it, then you can concentrate on the deeper meaning of it.

    Somebody please correct me if I explained that wrong.

    #1081804
    yossiea
    Participant

    SJSinNYC, that’s why you have to keep davening. You can’t give up. That’s how davening is.

    (The same can be said for lots of things we daven for, which is why you still have to daven, even if it didn’t happen yet in X years. That’s not neccesarily the point of davening.)

    #1081805
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    notpashut:

    One should not make fun of another Yid, even if they are acting up not as a Yid should. This is directly from the Mishna BK 90b.

    Layztanus is always Assur.

    #1081806
    cherrybim
    Participant

    #1081807

    Moderators have deleted this and similar posts of yours repeatedly over the last day or so. Please do not complain that your posts are not seeing the light of day when you keep posting the same thing over and over again thinking that you will get different results. The post is considered a prying post – in other words you are trying to get personal information from someone. YW Moderator-72

    #1081808
    oomis
    Participant

    Ames, I have been re-reading your posts here, and I really hope you are in some type of kiruv work, because you have a way of expressing the nitty-gritty in a way that I think can be very effective in reaching out. Yasher koach.

    #1081809
    notpashut
    Member

    gavra,

    The first half of your comment I can appreciate but I don’t get the second.

    #1081810
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Your opinion on this issue is worth as much as R’ Chaim’s opinion on how to best create a scrumptious mushroom quiche.

    Hey! I thought the gedolim were experts on everything in life. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1081811
    moish01
    Member

    ok how do i say this?

    i don’t do things that i don’t feel like doing. so don’t quote halacha because it won’t make a difference to me. i break so many halachos a day anyway.

    about the relationship with hashem thingy: in a real relationship there’s no “faking it.” whenever i daven it’s because i really feel like it. sometimes it’s once a day, sometimes three times, and sometimes none. at least when i’m davening it’s real. i should say shaim hashem for nothing? (there’s ANOTHER sin to add to the list)

    and WHY would i want to daven if i’m mad at hashem? and why would he want to listen if i’m asking for help to do more of the wrong things? i know that three quarters of what i do is wrong and i ask for help anyway. it’s a bit stupid, no? it’s like your kid coming to you and asking for money to buy drugs. stupid kid! go get your own drugs – don’t ask you father for money!

    plus, it’s different with people. at least they talk back and you could see if you’re getting anywhere.

    besides, i thought that a tfilla without kavana isn’t worth anything. isn’t there a chazal like that or something? (me quoting chazal – that’s a funny one!)

    #1081812
    notpashut
    Member

    gavra,

    Never mind, now I get it.

    #1081813
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    good one cherrybim

    #1081814
    notpashut
    Member

    gavra,

    BTW, I’m not so sure that your “tzushtell” to that Mishna is on target.

    #1081815
    dd
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid (quoted by notpashut): “embarrassing someone in public is far worse than never wearing a hat once in one’s entire life.”

    notpashut responds: “When someone acts like a clown in public they should not be offended when people laugh at them.”

    This comment completely offsets all the reasonable arguments you made earlier in the post. If someone acts foolish in public, perhaps he should expect scorn, but if you are the one laughing at him, then you are malbin pnei chaveiro b’rabim.

    Your claim to be standing up for halacha is hollow when you simultaneously can be so dismissive of mitzvos bein odom l’chaveiro.

    #1081817
    moish01
    Member

    oomis, you mean that was kiruv? i’m out of here! just kidding i asked for it so i guess i got it.

    #1081819
    moish01
    Member

    hey speaking of davening, (i should run away from here now before i lose control) but i actually davened mincha AND mariv today. plus i put on tfillin (a little late, but they went on today) not bad, ay?

    i’ll bet anonymiss would give me an A+ for trying…

    #1081820

    Moish: I reallyyy feel bad for u n I WISH I can help u!!

    #1081821
    Bemused
    Participant

    Pashute Yid,

    You write from the heart. I am wondering if it is possible that the easy use of “Kannoim” can also be construed as derogatory and a breach in Bain Adam L’Chaveiro?

    This is offered simply as a springboard for reflection, not critisism.

    #1081822
    Curious
    Member

    moish – and you gave a dvar torah! You’re an ALL STAR!

    #1081823
    moish01
    Member

    syriansephardi, WHAT exactly do you expect me to answer to that? i’m just wondering what you were thinking?

    #1081824
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Bemused, you ask a valid question, and I have tried to address this on other threads. I normally never give mussar or tochacha to anybody. However, when somebody starts with another person and clearly hurts their feelings, I have no choice. In practically every case here (although not necessarily on other boards), somebody will offer an innocent opinion on some topic, and kannaim will come down and take the person to town.

    You practically never see uncivilized behavior here initiated by the more moderate or even left-leaning posters, except when they are first personally attacked. Kannaim constantly overreact to posts that they do not agree with and launch these personal attacks, even though nobody has actually attacked them, just expressed an opinion.

    The pattern occurs over and over. Because of a din of rodef, I need to soothe the one who has been attacked, and the only way to do that is to tell them that they have been wronged, although it is also effectively attacking the rodef, as you pointed out.

    There are some kannaim here who are careful with bein odom lachaveiro, however, the majority are not. Just like in EY where they throw acid and beat people on buses. It is an entire mindset that must be changed. That is why I rail against it constantly.

    I understand the mindset, as I used to be a bigger kannai than these people. But at one point I realized that almost every time I ever got angry or into some kind of major fight with anybody, it was because I thought I was doing some kind of big mitzvah or because of some religious issue. I began to think that this is not what the Torah is all about, and is a perversion. The Torah is only about shalom. The RBSH is an Av Harachaman, and hates this fighting in his name. While there are numerous rayos to this, one of the most obvious is the gemara in Sotah which says that He would rather have His name erased, if it can make shalom between a man and his wife. The meaning is that bein odom lamakom is subordinate to bein odom lachaveiro. We also see this by Avraham where gedolah hachnasas orchim yoser meikabalas pnei hashechinah. Imagine one is in the middle of speaking to Hashem and guests ring the doorbell. You could imagine a whole bunch of kannaim screaming APIKORUS, you interrupt the aibershter for some idol worshipping yo-yo at the door. How dare you!

    But in truth the main thing the Aiberhster wants from us is to be menschen to each other. When we scream at each other for his sake, we totally destroy the whole reason for the Torah. It is all about us, it is not about some arrogant, angry G-d who we must constantly give his due praise or he gets furious. Everything he created is for us. Everything he told us to do is for us, so we make the maximum of ourselves, and have the happiest and most fulfilling lives.

    There is much more to say, but another time.

    #1081825
    Joseph
    Participant

    dd – That comment was made by notpashut rhetorically, with the underlying point being no one is embarrassing anyone in public – and that is a false comparison.

    Also see Bemused very good point, subsequent to your comment. Somehow tough, I think bemused is giving the commentor he addressed too much benefit of the doubt.

    #1081826
    Joseph
    Participant

    dd – That comment was made by him rhetorically, with the underlying point being no one is embarrassing anyone in public – and that is a false comparison.

    Also see Bemused very good point, subsequent to your comment. Somehow tough, I think bemused is giving the commentor he addressed too much benefit of the doubt.

    #1081827
    Curious
    Member

    ames, you should be a rebetzin!!! Or at least give some shiruim!

    #1081828
    anon for this
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid

    Your posts on this thread are some of the most articulate, pointed, and yet restrained that I’ve seen yet. If everyone wrote as well as you, there’d be no more flaming (and more interesting discussions). I missed your posts, and I’m glad you’re back.

    #1081829

    Moish: I wasn’t looking for an answer I was just saying I really do feel bad for u I wish u had a higher self esteem and felt better about yourself and have a love for misvot.

    #1081830
    moish01
    Member

    no, ames. it makes me feel like i always do when i daven – i did it because i wanted to. that’s all.

    1) i don’t do homework and i love showering. my point is, if i can help it i don’t do what i don’t want to. yes, i WANT to stand on line for ice cream. i don’t WANT to go to school so whether or not i have to, i don’t.

    2) i’m skipping cuz you didn’t really answer.

    3) don’t be stupid. whether or not i’ve ever tried drug i know it’s stupid and i would never give my kid money for drugs. i might handcuff him too. don’t lie – you would never make it that easy for your kid to buy drugs. if he gets a job and does it by himself you don’t have much control but that’s a little better. i love my parent and i NEVER tried asking my dad for money for drugs. i just wouldn’t do that to him (or myself)

    4) you must be on something because i’ve never had God speak to me!

    5) WHAT did she say it was????????? 🙂

    and WHY do you always have and answer for everything?

    #1081831
    Will Hill
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid:

    You wrote that “I used to be a bigger kannai than these people.”

    What were you (previously) a kanoi about? What is an example (or two) of a kanoish thing you actually did?

    (For the record, and to be intellectually honest, I disagree with all your expressed views in this thread.)

    #1081832
    Will Hill
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid:

    You wrote that “I used to be a bigger kannai than these people.”

    What were you (previously) a kanoi about? What is an example (or two) of a kanoish thing you actually did?

    (For the record, and to be intellectually honest, I disagree with all your expressed views in this thread.)

    #1081833
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    ames: wow wow wow-that’s all i got for you!!! everything you said was amazing!!!

    moish: i’m proud of your actions today!!!

    #1081834
    moish01
    Member

    why do i feel like a little kid who ate all of his cereal? everyone’s so “proud” of me.

    #1081835

    Should I be blunt? They don’t want u to feel like a hazeet case (nebach case)

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