March 15, 2009 3:45 am at 3:45 am #589601amesParticipant
I heard from my rosh hayeshiva ZT”L that the drive for possessions is a corruption of the neshama’s drive for mitzvos and nitzchiyos. Our guf and animal nefesh corrupt this into a drive for possessions. That doesn’t make it right, but understanding its source is half the battle.March 18, 2009 3:07 am at 3:07 am #874582anonymisssParticipant
This thread was falling to the bottom of the page and I like it. Anyone have anything to add?
~a~March 18, 2009 4:14 am at 4:14 am #874583
back to my phone (or lack thereof) I never considered myself so obsessed with my phone and when I lost it I was devastated (literally!) I think i was more relieved to hear that it was stolen than if it had just been lost. my two cents is that its hergel, like ames car, if you use something often, you develop a superficial connection to it. material possesions are a part of you, and maybe you (not you per say) devote time to it, but thats the way the world is supposed to be. we are not supposed to be completely ruchniyus. so you develop an attachment to the material possessions you have now, not what you had. 🙂
some food for thought: if it meant so much to you, then you would be reluctant to give it up, if you dont remember it, or miss it, then it means on the general scale, it didnt mean too much to you which IMO,(well probably everybodys) is a good thing. 🙂March 18, 2009 4:51 am at 4:51 am #874584
If your attitude towards your material possessions is modeled after the way Yaakov avinu felt towards his “pachim ketanim” and it is stemming from a place that everything we have in this world is a means to serve HKB”H, then it is ok to have a ruchnius attachement and be responsible in taking care of them, and even some nostalgia.
If the attachment is “this car makes me who I am” and there isn’t a differentiation between self and car then it’s in the range of problem. The car is it and you’re you.
Since it doesn’t seem that you have a problem with attachment, then if you channel the time you put into material possessions to ultimately be a vehicle to serve Hashem sincerely then you’re on the right track.March 18, 2009 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #874585myshadowMember
I have my own car and I’m b’emet attached to it. Can I justify it by saying that without my car I wouldn’t be able to do half the amount of volunteer stuff I use the car for?March 18, 2009 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #874586squeakParticipant
ames, please forgive me. I try very hard to keep my leitzanus out of your good, serious topics, but here I can’t.
Wear the same thing.March 19, 2009 12:22 am at 12:22 am #874587
Myshadow-it sounds like you’re attached to it for the right reasons. It doesn’t define you, it helps you be who you want to be in your avodas Hashem.
ames- just have an outfit ready now–then you’ll have nothing to worry about.March 19, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #874588
kiruvwife, that’s what the chofetz chaim did. but he probably had fewer outfits to choose from that any of us.March 19, 2009 2:38 am at 2:38 am #874589
ames: this kind of sounds like what we are working on in the 1 middah thread, working on being honest with ourselves.March 19, 2009 2:53 am at 2:53 am #874590
anon-yes, that’s where I got the idea from-for ladies it’ll be harder-men get to wear suits.March 19, 2009 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #874591
ames you seem intellectually honest with yourself. If you can ask yourself-will this in anyway enhance my relationship with HKB”H, and there are many ways that can happen, and the answer is yes, then great-it’s l’shem shomayim. If you really WANT it to be lshem shomayim, then ask Hashem for help in that too.March 20, 2009 4:28 am at 4:28 am #874592
anon wasnt it that the chofetz chaim had clothing ready to take when mashiach came? 🙂
I remember once hearing that when a person gets dressed they should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they would be embarrassed to great mashiach in it 🙂March 22, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #874593
interesting point, ames…
& why do people always smile for pictures? they didn’t use to, right? in old pictures they look all serious.March 22, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #874594
Many Rabbonim avoid photographs like avoda zora.March 22, 2009 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #874595oomisParticipant
interesting point, ames…
& why do people always smile for pictures? they didn’t use to, right? in old pictures they look all serious.
And in the old pictures they all looked AWFUL. Everyone looked somber, like they were at a funeral. Would you not rather look at a smiling face, if it is more pleasant than a somber one? A person can also take an unsmiling picture, yet manage to convey a pleasant look.March 22, 2009 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #874596
@ames – I once read that certain Rabbonim already have a set of clothes to wear for when Moshiach arrives. Doing this would avoid the dilemma of deciding what to wear…March 22, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #874597
oomis1105: i don’t think that we should do that, i was just wondering when it changed, & why it’s different now 🙂 i like candid photos better anyway, they’re much more interestingMarch 22, 2009 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #874598
@ames – well, in that case, there could be a problem…I possibly forsee the arrival of a new service in the community of having pre-prepared clothes, and being able to deliver them to people within minutes of them realising that they need something…views on this? ;PMarch 22, 2009 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #874599
why not play it safe and imagine mashiach is coming today and dress appropriately 🙂March 22, 2009 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #874600
Good idea. 😀March 22, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #874601
ames – some consider it similar to avoda zora (the image issue).March 22, 2009 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #874602
ames – I think Eliyahu Hanavi will give 3 days notice prior to the arrival of Moshiach.March 22, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #874603
AOB & oomis, the reason people look so serious in very old photographs is that cameras were more primitive, so image exposure took much longer and people had to hold the pose for a long time. People couldn’t generally hold a smile for that long.
That’s why the oldest photographs never show “action” shots; photographic technology simply didn’t allow it. Think of photographs from the Civil War, which was the first American war to be extensively photographed, and compare to photography from later wars.March 22, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #874604oomisParticipant
Thank you Anon, I had not considered that at all. I think, though, that when posing in general, if one thinks pleasant thoughts (sorta like Peter Pan), that it will show on his face, and therefore also on the photo, even if he is not smiling.March 22, 2009 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #874605
oomis, you wrote, “I think, though, that when posing in general, if one thinks pleasant thoughts (sorta like Peter Pan), that it will show on his face, and therefore also on the photo, even if he is not smiling.”
I think that is true of some old photos. Lincoln was extensively photographed, and in some of his photos he does seem at least content. But the strain of holding a pose for 15 minutes or more can make a happy person seem less so.March 22, 2009 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #874606
ames – I know for example that the Satmar Rebbe ZTV’L (amongst others) were very strict in not allowing photographs of themselves, as they considered it to be a form of avoda zora.
I forget the source, but it is brought down that Eliyahu Hanavi will come and provide Klal Yisroel notice that Moshiach is coming in 3 days.March 22, 2009 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #874607
anon for this: very interesting! thanks for explaining
ames: i don’t think i’ve read even one of your posts today without laughing! you’re pretty funny 🙂March 22, 2009 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #874608
ames, here’s a question: how many people who are in the middle of building a house, or better, are just about done, REALLY daven for mashiach? i’ll bet they’re thinking, “god, let him wait three weeks. the day AFTER i get to move in to my new house…”March 22, 2009 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #874609
my friend said something like that. they’re going away this summer somewhere they’ve never been, & they told me “i want mashiach to come, but i also want vacation to come first…” & felt bad about it, & i didn’t really know what to say 🙁March 22, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #874610
moish thats a very good question often argued with “but we’re supposed to be settled” today money is treated as an avodah zara whether people want to admit it or not. I think the world is divided into two groups, people who have a tzarah for which they are storming the heavens every day and asking for a yeshua, they dont feel settled and want him to come. but theres another group (which is more important right now) who are very happy the way they are and have their issues, but its nothing very pressing, and they can live with it and they want mashiach to come but there is nothing so desperate about his coming. look compare it this way, the guy whos cousin just broke a shidduch does not care about mashiach the same way the cousin does. I guess it depends on the level and closeness of the tzarah.
got what I said?
🙂March 22, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #874611
i always wanted to go buy a new suit & save it for mashiach!!! i’m serious, just never happened yet!!!March 22, 2009 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #874612
kapusta, who ever said we’re supposed to be settled? you know the story with chofetz chaim?
and yeh it does depend on the level of pain. but after a while even that fades away.March 22, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #874613
moish a person is supposed to have some sort of parnassa for himself, does that answer you? and with time everything fades but i think deep down everyone wants it, but its also that people dont know what it’ll be like when he comes so theres no basis of comparison. 🙂March 22, 2009 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #874614
ames: that’s a really nice thought, but i think you have to go aboutt your daily life as usual till moshiach comes!!! yeah & do all the mitzvos to the fulllest too!!!March 22, 2009 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #874615
not necessarily. i know this is a bit outdated, but a peddler isn’t too settled, wouldn’t you say? and the CC had a store, but i doubt he was too attached to it.March 22, 2009 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #874616
hes not actually settled, in a place, but he has a parnassa for himself. and anyway, he cant just cross the atlantic with his wagon when he feels like it. 🙂March 22, 2009 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #874617
you think only people who can afford it are going to be able to get to eretz yisroel when mashiach comes?March 22, 2009 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #874618
no. what makes you think that? 🙂March 22, 2009 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #874619
moish: on the wings of an eagle-everyone will go to E”Y!!!March 22, 2009 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #874620
sorry, then i didn’t understand you. you wanna explain?
and anyway, he cant just cross the atlantic with his wagon when he feels like it. 🙂March 22, 2009 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #874621
I didnt mean because of parnassah, I meant practically, it doesnt make a difference if he has a store or a wagon he cant just take everything across 🙂March 22, 2009 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #874622
moish: who should explain???March 22, 2009 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #874623
ok. so it’s an attitude. like the CC. i was just saying that when they were peddlers it was a lot easier to remember that nothing is or should be permanent. when you just built a 3 million dollar house is a lot harder to keep that in mind…March 22, 2009 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #874624proud tattyMember
Maybe people should not build and live in such homes for that reason.March 22, 2009 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #874625
yes thats true, then I guess I agree with you 🙂March 22, 2009 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #874626proud tattyMember
This should be one of the lessons of succotMarch 22, 2009 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #874627
proud tatty, if you had ten million dollars to burn you wouldn’t use a couple to build a house?March 22, 2009 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #874628YW Moderator-39Member
not sure I would. Definitely wouldn’t outside of Israel.
I also wouldn’t consider “burning” it as you sayMarch 22, 2009 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #874629
mod 39, I’m with you. (does that reinstate our friendship?) 🙂March 22, 2009 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #874630
ok, to “blow”
you know what i mean. you expect millionaires to live in a little tiny house? maybe they should, but that’s a very high level. and usually the working class doesn’t reach that high a level. and the rabbis aren’t faced with that test.
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