May 8, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #603311dantrustMember
Should the expiration of the Tal Law in Israel prevent someone from moving there? I know I don’t want my children in the Army, even the Israeli Army!
How exactly will that work? Are they going to round up all the Charedim and force them to enter the Army?
I fear Hashem’s wrath if Yiddin are taken away from Torah!!
Any Thoughts?May 8, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #874332
The Gedolim have all already said: We will submit to prison before we submit to their army.
Let them statg building new prisons to house hundreds of thousands of Torah Jews.May 8, 2012 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #874333takahmamashParticipant
But obviously it’s OK for other kids to be in the Army, right?May 8, 2012 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #874334Sam2Participant
They’ll make a new law. They’re not going to start a civil war to force people into the army who very much don’t want to be there.May 8, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #874335simcha613Participant
I’ve said this in the past- it seems that the Benei Torah who are sitting in learning would make the best soldiers. In Sefer Shoftim, Hashem told Gidon to take the Talmidei Chachamim as soldiers. He didn’t say that they should sit and learn while the non-learners fight. The zechus of Torah is what protects us, but maybe it protects us in the form of the Talmidei Chachamim on the front lines.May 8, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #874336
There are currently a few Yeshivot in the Hesder program that are considered chareidi or have close ties to the chareidi velt – Bircas HaTorah in Shavei Shomron comes to mind. A constructive approach might be to create a fully chareidi stream of hesder, with both a study and Tzahal stream as well as a study and Sherut Leumi stream. I think that the army and the government would be amenable to a program that devotes the majority of time to learning, as they have done with existing hesder, and they might even go further.
Another idea is to take the initiative in creating new avenues in sherut leumi that could give b’nei Torah an incredible opportunity to have a hashpo’oh on Jews who have little exposure to Torah and Mitzvos, be it in education, in social services, in helping the old and the infirm.
Bottom line is that there are constructive and creative ways to meet the challenge that don’t include hafganos and telling the other 5 million citizens of Israel that their children should be prepared to lay down their lives for another Jew, but ours shouldn’t, while still deriving benefit from the infrastructure, budgets, and services provided by the State that all Israelis live in. .May 8, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #874337
@derszoger Which Gedolim? The Gedolim have been divided on these issues since 1948. Rav Shteinman famously said that bachurim going off the derech should join the army.
I have several opinions on the topic. First off, people living in Eretz Yisroel have to live like Israelis. That means either being Da’ati Leumi and allowing your children to join the army, or being Chareidi and letting your children sit in kollel for their entire life.
Secondly, the situation as it is now, is terrible and in serious need of change. Joining the army (even Nachal Chareidi) is not an option for most Chareidim, and sitting in kollel forever is also not an option. Something has to change, and I believe that with the exploding Chareidi voting population, change will happen to allow for more and more options other than kollel or army.May 8, 2012 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #874338americaisoverParticipant
Lets not kid ourselves not everyone is cut out for learning, some people like Hatzalah/Shomrim types are perfect for national service/ tzahal, having EVERYONE go to kollel is what caused this mess in the 1st place. ARABS however MUST be drafted as well including their women.May 8, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #874339
Rav Shteinman is 100% against any frum Jew joining the army.May 9, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #874340Sam2Participant
Shmoel: That is a downright lie. It has been publicized many times that he has said otherwise.May 9, 2012 1:35 am at 1:35 am #874341
Incorrect. There is not a SINGLE reliable source for that lie, other than mainly the left-wing Torah-bashing blogs.May 9, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #874342
1. If the Israelis wanted a large number of Hareidi to sign up, they could make the army friendly for frum soldiers in ways that would not impact on the military matters, such as a rule requiring all soldiers to observe the laws of yichud and negiah and a strict “non-fraternization while on duty or on base” policy. They could run the army like the handful of segregated frum units in terms of leaving time for davening, kashruth, Shabbos. They choose not to. However if they made the zionists institution “frum-friendly” it would radically change Eretz Yisrael and alienate the secular zionists who run the state but are increasingly unwilling to serve in the army.
2. Perhaps 10% of the yeshiva students are anti-zionists (who refuse to accept zionist subsidies). If the army tries to draft them they will resist and trying to arrest them will seriously hurt Israel’s image and undermine the argument that it is a Jewish homeland. It is better politically to say they are to busy learning to serve in the army rather than saying that zionism is apikorsis. Drafting the yeshiva students would turn Neturei Karta into a serious political movement, with its membership being measured in thousands rather than dozens.
3. Drafting unwilling, unhappy and disloyal soldiers is a good way to undermine the ability of the army to defend the country. Repeal of the Tal law, meaning conscription of the yeshiva students, is probably the Palestinians’ best chance of getting a state with Jerusalem as its capital, and Yaffo-Tel Aviv as its largest city.
4. Of course, for those of us who believe in HaShem and His Torah, we know that in fact it is the yeshiva students, who show tremendous mesiros nefesh in giving up any chance of a middle class lifestyle to learn Torah, who are really the ones defending Eretz Yisrael. If the government closes down the yeshivos, and forces the Hareidim to flee to other countries, HaShem will probably close down the zionist enterprise once and for all. But that’s only background to the above debate.May 9, 2012 3:13 am at 3:13 am #874343popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Oh I hope they try. What fun it will be to watch them back off with their tail between their legs.May 9, 2012 4:53 am at 4:53 am #874344
apukerma -under the veneer of reasonable words, you spew the most venomous words against jews,. you write “Hashem will probably close the zionist enterprise once and for all” ,like the Holocaust- that saw millions of frum jews annihilated and the beauty of European jewry totally destroyed? Your views are despicable.May 9, 2012 5:48 am at 5:48 am #874345pcozMember
– agree with the rabbi
– Israeli politics doesn’t make sense to chutznikim so there’s no point trying to understand it
– Part of the problem is the identification of religious Jews in Israel as “charedim” who comprise a political group. In that case non-conscription for “chareidim” becomes an unjustified preference for a political group as opposed to a sign of respect for some people who are part of greater society.May 9, 2012 5:56 am at 5:56 am #874346
rabbiofberlin, Hashem is already closing the Zionist enterprise but as in Yirmiyahu He is giving them many signs to make them change their ways. If you compare Hashem’s actions to the Holocaust, it’s almost like comparing Him to H**tler ym”s. You didn’t mean to do that, did you?May 9, 2012 7:46 am at 7:46 am #874347marvafanMember
When I served I very rarely had a minyan. Not because of your motzei sem ra against tzahal but because you were so busy worrying about your startched white shirt that you could not serve in the army that defends your religion. I strongly advise you to buy my pikei avot book advertised here and actually lear a bissel torah.May 9, 2012 8:49 am at 8:49 am #874348
The Jews of Eastern Europe were hardly anhiliated, nor was the “the beauty of European jewry totally destroyed”. We survived. We won. The leading yeshivos are alive and well and bigger than before the war (can you say the same for the non-orthodox seminaries of central Europe). We are still around, and thriving (the Nazis are considered a total joke in Europe). Yes we had casulties, but we won that battle. HaShem against all odds managed to get some of our other enemies (Stalin of all people, with some belated help from the Americans and Brits) to rescue us (how Purim-dik, and we didn’t even have to get them drunk first).May 9, 2012 11:25 am at 11:25 am #874349
Loyal Jew, everything that happens in history happens because Hashem wills it to, no matter how glorious or how tragic. To say otherwise is to be kofer b’ikar. You didn’t mean to do that, did you?May 9, 2012 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #874350
Rabbiofberlin, you have to be aware that a number of posters here have been brainwashed with the Brisker shittos. Namely ,that Zionism was founded to take Yidden of the derech. Needless to say that this shitta is not supported by historical facts at all. These Brisker cadets are, however, fanatical about it. At the same time, the Briskers do not hold of giving up land. I do not know what to make out of it.May 9, 2012 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #874351
mdd: The Briskers have no objections to giving land for peace. Rav Schach, another strong anti-zionist, also supported giving land.
And, yes, zionism was founded to take yidden off the derech. Read up about Hertzl ym’s.May 9, 2012 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #874352
Akuperma! Are you for real?!? 6 million Jews were killed — 2/3 of European Jewry, a 1/3 of Klal Yisroel!! Your statements are outrageous!May 9, 2012 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #874353hatzolajewMember
Can everyone one here please read “The Ideology of Hesder” by MaRan Aharon Lichtenstein and understand that there is tremendous value in Talmud Torah AND tremendous value in hearing the crying baby of Klal Yisrael. They aren’t mutually exclusive.May 9, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #874354
Yichusdik, Hashem wills everything and gives us free will too. Yirmiyahu warned us again and again but left the door open for tshuva at any time. Once he said that if only we’d stop carrying on Shabbos in Yerushayim it would be good enough. That was too much for us. So with the situation in EY today: the enemies are closing in, the economy is failing, and they’re going to draft our last line of defense, the bochurim?!May 9, 2012 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #874356
Rav Shach was against the Oslo agreements — he did not trust the Arabs! Look in his letters!May 9, 2012 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #874357
If not for Israel, all these anti-Zionists would have to live in Russia and Poland, and there the locals would not put up with any of these Chareidi antics. (the Briskers would not go to trief America, would they?)May 9, 2012 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #874358
I know little about the so-called “brisker shittah” and I know some about the satmarer shitta. All I know that the brisker Rov zt’l was able to find refuge in Eretz yisroel- saving himself and being able to found a yeshiva in the so-called “evil’ medinah, all I know is that the Satmarer rebbe zt’l owes his life to a Zionist.
But the most outrageous words still come out from apukerma: he writes: “The jews of Eastern Europe were hardly annihilated”. Im don’t know what apukerma is smoking but tell this to the six million kedoshim. This is an outrageous statement. and then he compounds it by asserting that “nor was the beauty of Eastern Europe destroyed”. Go tell this to al lthe survivors of the countless of Jewish cities and villages that gave their blood snd died “al kiddush hashem” to give you, apukerma, the freedom to live as you wish.May 9, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #874359
The Briskers came to Eretz Yisroel PRE-STATE.
The Satmar Rebbe was saved by Adolff Eichmann who authorized a train to leave. Eichmann’s Jewish helper Kastner was a murderer himself who needed Eichmann for the train and all.May 9, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #874360zahavasdadParticipant
There is no such thing as free money, If you dont like the options dont take the money.
To expect non-charedis to fight to protect you and support you as well is not tennable especially as the charedi population grows larger.
What happens when more than 50% of the population is charedi not in the army and not working you cant expect everyone one to give all their energy and power to support you.May 9, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #874361
mdd: Rav Shach supported giving land to the Arabs for peace. See his Seforim.
Mictavim Umaamarim Volume 1: Letter 6May 9, 2012 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #874362
shmoel- continue smoking wht you are smoking now. soon, you will see cows flying over the roof.May 9, 2012 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #874363
shmoel- on a serious note (I posted another remark that may have been denied access), whether the brisker family came to Eretz isreol pre-state is irrelevant. This is where the rov found refuge and flourished. If the brisker have the same ‘shittah’ as the satmarer rebbe- let them leave eretz yisroel and move, as the satmarer rebbe did.
As far as Kastner goes, this is an old debate and you were not there, so you don’t know what happened. All I know is that the satmarer rebbe, R’Yonasan Steiff and his family, countless of other jews (over 1600 to be exact) were saved from the clutches of the nazis. You ,and all of those who are damning Kastner, never saved one jewish soul, so it would be best for you to be humble and keep quiet.May 9, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #874364
shmoel: I’ve heard from very reliable sources that Rav Shteinman <i>did</i> say his famous “controversial” statement that bachurim who are having trouble should join Nachal Chareidi. His words were ambiguous, though, so the Rav I heard it from said that he was referring to bachurim who are eating treif and being mechalel Shabbos. Walk through the Geula/Meah Shearim areas and ask around about peoples opinions of him. Better yet, read the graffiti.May 9, 2012 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #874365
You think we are extinct. We survived. We are still here. We are prospering. Just as in many previous times, we survived because HaShem saved us. What are the elements of survival:
1. Yeshivos. As long as some yeshivos survive, they manage to grow again. Indeed, there are probably more people learning Torah full time than there were in 1939. And yes, this is relevant to disucssing the Tal law. Those who are learning Torah, and in doing so giving up most of their parnassah, are the key to Jewish survival. THere will always be pograms, but as long as we have a core learning Torah, we will survive.May 9, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #874366
Loyal Jew, you wrote:
“Yirmiyahu warned us again and again but left the door open for tshuva at any time. Once he said that if only we’d stop carrying on Shabbos in Yerushayim it would be good enough.”
Assuming you are talking about the Novi, could you quote the posuk for me where he says explicitly that it would be “good enough”? Good enough for what? Learn some Yirmiyohu, specifically the 30th and 31st prokim, and see how HKBH is bringing the geuloh he talked about in Yirmiyohu right now!
“the enemies are closing in,”
Ignoring of course the nisim and niflo’os and strengththat HKBH has wrought using his instrument, the IDF and am yisroel. Ironic, because your fellow travelers also falsely accuse the frie Israelis of ignoring the same niflo’os and strength you are ignoring.
“the economy is failing,”
Perhaps, for those who do not work. If you haven’t been paying attention, Israel rode out the recent recession better than any industrialized country with the possible exception of Canada. It has the largest number of companies listed on NASDAQ outside of the US. It has a tremendous role in the world economy, and people from Warren Buffet ($4 Billion for ISCAR)to Bill Gates are investing in Israel. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FOOLING? B’chasdei Hashem, he has caused a dynamic, flourishing economy to be created in Israel. Sorry if the reality doesn’t conform to your worldview.
“and they’re going to draft our last line of defense, the bochurim?!”
They are going to ask that bochurim to take their responsibilities as citizens seriously. There are already creative ways to do that, like the hesder model and sherut leumi that can both leave ample time to learn and be in environments that are positive. It doesn’t have to be an milchomo, except that those who are adamantly against it realize that their power is slipping, they don’t have the leverage in politics they used to have and they don’t have the budgets squeezed from the PM they used to have.May 9, 2012 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #874367
Derszoger, Rav Shach would agree in theory to this. In practice, he did not trust the Arabs. I myself saw his letter in “Mictavim umamarim”. Drei nit kein kup!
Shmoel, yea. And the Rov fought against the government in E. Yisroel. Had he tried to do that in Poland or Russia, it would have been stopped real fast. And brutal.
And A. Eichmann just decided to save all those Jews out of the blue?!? How dare you?May 9, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #874368pcozMember
– agree with yichusdik. Mind reading Hashem and saying “this is what Hashem means le’tovah (I mean this be’lashon sagi nahor)” is a dangerous game. The Chofetz Chaim has an entire perek in shemiras ha’lashon on being melamed zechus on klal yisroel. This means not only looking for zechusim of klal yisroel that should defend them but it also means interpreting events in a positive light and seeing the good that can come out of a situation and then saying THAT is what Hashem means.
– There has been far less anti-semitism in the world press for the last year and a half once the threat of the Iranian nuclear program against Israel and the free world became apparent.
– The biggest existential threat to the state is not Ahmadinejad shem reshoim yirkav but is rather the anti-semitic drivel that pours unabated from the offices of the leftist journalists in Tel Aviv. People do not understand the whittling effect this has in persuading the world that the Jews are evil and dangerous people rachmono litzlon.May 9, 2012 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #874369
Akuperma, for crying out loud!! What we mean is how you can ignore the suffering and the death of millions!!!!May 9, 2012 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #874370
The Briskers prosper in Eretz Yisroel no thanks to a single zionist. They even refuse to accept a single shekel in government money that they are fully legally entitled to! They arrived there before the State ever existed and they will remain there long after the State ceases to exist.
Kastner is a mass murderer who has the blood of over half a million Jews on his bloody zionists hands. He deserves not an iota of thanks from anyone anymore than his friend and fellow nazi Adolff Eichmann, who Kastner helped in liquidating Hungarian Jewry to the gas chambers in Aushwitz. If anyone on the train, including the SR, owe any “thanks” to, it is to Adolf Eichmann who ordered the train and ensured its safe passage to Switzerland. Kaster ym’s was in no position to order a train or authorize its passage to leave nazi occupied territory. Eichmann ym’s had that ability and authorization and Eichmann is the one that ordered the train and authorized its departure. So “thank” Eichmann if you insist on thanking someone.May 10, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #874371
@shmoel The Briskers accept money from the State. There are thousands of Briskers in Eretz Yisroel, are you trying to tell me that every single one pays for their own health insurance? Or never took advantage of the law that pays for land to build a shul? Or ever got a kollel check?May 10, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #874372
Their Yeshivos refuse to accept money they are legally entitled to based on their students being enrolled in the school. And, no, they don’t take money for shul land, even though legally entitled. Satmar and other Yeshivos are similar to Brisk in this regard. As far as insurance, the individuals are liable to pay the taxes that covers the insurance costs and there is no reason for them to refuse what they are required to pay for.May 10, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #874373
I know for a fsct also that some of the Briskers do indeed take money, from personal knowledge.
Brisk in Yerushalayim is split in several groups – one of them is affiliated with the Edah and refuses to take money. I don’t know what other groups there are, but at least one other branch does take government money.May 10, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #874374
apukerma- I strongly disagree with you on vritually any subject you write about- certainly about Eretz Yisroel- but I appreciate your level headed apporach and answer (unlike some others…)
May I say that you misquote me and I hope it is just a slip pf the pen (keyboard)-you say that “you think we are extinct”. HUH? where did I say this anywhere? “Punk farkert”, I have the deepest belief in “netzach yisroel” and the Almighty’s hand in choosing us and helping us throug the centuries. .This is why I also believe that our return to Eretz Ysroel and the revival of Jewish soveriegnity over our land is “min hashomaim”.
You say that we have no control over anything (see your response)- and that it is all in G’d’s hands, yet you refuse to see the same divine guidance in the return to Eretz Yisroel and our rebirth as a nation. What is it- everything is “min hashomaim” but not the medinah?? this is a totally incoherent appraoch.
You also minimize the concept of “hishtadlus’ but this is for another day.
Lastly, the fact that there are yeshivos and torah in abundance in Eretz Yisroel today is due, in no small manner, to the fact that we do indeed have sovereignty over our homeland. You do not really accept the idea that the same would be under Syrian or Palestinian rule, do you?May 13, 2012 7:23 am at 7:23 am #874375
Yichusdik, the pasuk in Yirmiyohu is 17:27:
?????-??? ?????????? ?????, ????????? ???-???? ??????????, ???????????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ????????????, ??????? ??????????: ??????????? ???? ?????????????, ????????? ?????????? ????????????–????? ????????May 13, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #874376
I am not sure it is wise to ressuscitate the debate about Kastner,but I re-read “Shmoel”‘s words and I think I cannot sit silent as he spews the most despicable words about an evetn that he knows nothing about and that clearly saved many Jews- some of them virulet anti-zionists- yet they were saved by the efforts of a zionist.
It seems that this has been the leitmotiv of all anti-zionists in recent decades-the “despised’ zionists save their homes and yeshivos on many occasions- 1948, 1967,1973- yet when it comes to acknowledge the minimal “hakoras hatov’ to these brave people, they spit in their faces.
We al lrecognize that we have “syata dishmaya’ to thank for all the victories and successes but it is exactly that ‘syata dishmaya’ the HELP of HKBH- as we do our own “hishtadlus” and workto advance the Almighty’s wishes.May 13, 2012 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #874377
berlin: If you insist on thanking someone, consider the following:
Ordered a train with a 1700 capacity
Authorized the boarding of 1700 Jews
Ordered border guards to allow passage of train to Switzerland
Kastner had the capacity nor the authority to do any of that. All he could do, as a favor to him from Eichmann, was select the passenger list. Why did Eichmann give him that favor? In return for Kastner keeping the Jews quiet so Eichmann could liquidate them to Aushwitz without too much trouble. So kastner hid the Vrba-Westzler Report. And even AFTER the war, Kastner testified in DEFENSE of multiple Nazis at their war crimes trials in Nuremberg and got them acquitted and saved their lives.May 13, 2012 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #874378
As I said, I am not interested in re-opening the Kastner debate, “shmoel”. But allow me to answer your (seemingly) provocative question- that it was Eichmann who saved the jews by allowing this train to go through.
Eichmann was caught in 1960 and executed in 1962. So he lived for another 17 years after the war. WHY? If you believe, as you constantly write, that everything is ‘min hashomaym”, why did HKBH allow him to live (pretty well ,I may say) for fiteen years after his dastardly and evil deeds?
Maybe, just maybe, it was the “sechar’ (reward) for having let 1700 Jews live. I’d like to hear your answer on that.May 14, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #874379NaftushMember
Throughout the war, Jews escaping from Poland warned the Hungarian Jews about the Nazis’ schemes and intentions. The typical response they received was “meshugeneh poylishe!” Even when Hungarian Jews were ordered to report for transport to Auschwitz, many swallowed the Nazis’ line about “resettlement” and showed up with pots, pans, and fine delicacies. Blaming all this on Kasztner doesn’t make sense.May 14, 2012 6:02 am at 6:02 am #874380Avi KParticipant
Everybody, including the secularists, agrees that those elite few who are really learning should get deferments. The problem is that there are many who are registered but do not really learn (in Hebrew they are called “parparim” – butterflies – because they flit around). They certainly should go into the Army. In fact, the Chazon Ish said that someone who takes a deferment but does not really learn should be reported to the military authorities. Many would probably welocme the chance as they want to do the mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1) but are pressured into not serving.May 14, 2012 11:28 am at 11:28 am #874381ymbMember
rabbi of berlin
do you not believe that everything is min hashomayim??
isnt it funny that the only nazi that israelis ever caught and killed was eichman???(kurt becher who was saved by kastner along with the zionists blessings lived in total freedom in germany for a long time and became very wealthy).
kastner was actually convicted to being a nazi collaborator and after he appealed that decision was murdered(by who? the israelis…)
how dare you zionist force us to serve in your army?
we do not belong to the state of israel.
we were there long before the state of israel.
we do not owe anything to the state of israel.
yeshivos exist everywhere in the world and would have existed in eretz yisroel without the state.
the insecurity for which you need an army was caused by you and your terrorist activities already pre state.
never in the history of jews in golus was there an army to defend ourselves.
ah sorry bar kochba(8 million jews dead).
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