DO WE REALLY HAVE A GOOD EXCUSE TO LIVE IN CHUTZ LA'ARETZ?

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  • #1763297

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Manitou
    What are you rambling about
    Of course he is a Jew
    That’s why his חילול שבת and anti Jewish religion stance is an issue
    The rest of your post is not addressed to me

    #1763300

    klugeryid
    Participant

    And besides,
    What does it mean “a Jewish state “?

    #1763326

    manitou
    Participant

    Klugeryid
    A Jewish state is a state that is in control by the Jews, not that complicated.

    #1763340

    klugeryid
    Participant

    OK so the grocery on my corner is a Jewish grocery. Now what
    Who cares. When Michael Bloomberg was mayor of new York did that make New York a Jewish city???
    The only reason to push to live in Israel is if it’s ארץ ישראל.
    Why should I care if a random place has a Jewish government?
    That’s not a reason to leave my current abode.

    All the more so when it’s an anti religious government.
    Stalin was also a Jew. Or Lenin. Whichever. May they both rot together.
    Would any sane person say “hey Soviet union is a Jewish state. I think all Jews should go live there “???
    That’s basically your argument
    Try again

    #1763356

    Eitzyoveish
    Participant

    Israel today may or may not be a mitzva to live in , BUT think very very carefully before all these broad statements that we should all go rush to israel , financial it’s by far harder in Israel, 2. Culture the Israeli culture is far far different from chutz laretz and would be extremely difficult to adjust to. 3. Chinuch . Isreali education is either far right or far left, whereas in chutz laretz a kid can play baseball and then go to a gemara shuir in israel its either torah torah torah or r”l the other way, besides this one has the issue of bringing up inrs kids in a foreign society from what one grew up with, which hhas severe repercussions. Vedoike

    #1763390

    mdd1
    Participant

    An aside clarification: neither Lenin or Stalin were Jews. The First may have had a meshumad grandfather. Stalin was a Georgian.

    #1763396

    Avi K
    Participant

    All public institutions in Israel are kosher and shomer Shabbat (except of course for pikuach nefesh). Jewish holidays are legal holidays (government offices even close on Chol haMoed). Jewish law and the Jewish calendar have official status. Israel is the Jewish state.

    #1763397

    Avi K
    Participant

    I just checked. Crawley has no Jewish institutions except for a Reform “community” that only has a post office box. Very interesting.

    #1763401

    klugeryid
    Participant

    OK
    I wasn’teaching history
    Marx was Jewish but he didn’t run the state
    I thought one of them was also.
    Sorry
    But the point I was trying to illustrate I think remains the same

    #1763402

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Please don’t get me wrong
    I’m not saying don’t live there.
    I’m saying that obviously Israel today is not anything like what א”י should be. It is no different today than 200 years ago as far as its “Jewish ownership ”
    If you want to say, it’s much easier to survive there now than it was back when, so therefore everyone should live here, that’s getting involved in the ג שבועות
    וכבר דשו ביה רבים and I have nothing to add
    But to say now “we ” control א”י -אתחלת דגאולה is just foolish.
    It’s in the control of שונאי ה who happen to be Jewish by birth

    #1763442

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi k

    Under plans published Thursday in coordination with the Transport, National Infrastructures and Road Safety Ministry, the municipality will grant licenses for 24 new shared taxi routes to operate in the city on Shabbat. While bus companies are not permitted to run services in Tel Aviv on that day, shared taxi routes are not affected by similar prohibitions.

    A day trip to Masada and the Dead Sea is not a bad idea to do on Saturday. Our National Parks are open on the Jewish Sabbath.

    MORE CHILLUL SHABBOS: Ramat Gan Gives The Green Light For Shabbos Bus Service

    Charish Residents Protest Chilul Shabbos

    Do I really need to go on?
    Any Jewish character to the secular state is a remainder of the original deals.
    It is all under attack from your heroes in the Jewish government.
    Feh
    News flash
    Most government offices, many stores and banks are closed in Brooklyn too

    #1763470

    Joseph
    Participant

    Welcome back mdd!

    Living in Israel today has the same status as far as Judaism and Halacha, as well as the status of the government, as living in Palestine under the British and Ottomans.

    #1764433

    klugeryid
    Participant

    and avi k has moved on

    #1766258

    HockPurposesOnly
    Participant

    According to most rishonim it’s a mitzvah deoraisa even these days to live in E”Y. According to some it’s a chiyuv. (See Rav Ovadia Yosef’s tshuva in the 11th chelek of Yabia Omer who prices that it’s a CHIYUV GAMUR to live in E”Y especially nowadays when it’s so much easier than before.) Anyone that has yiras shamayim must have a very good excuse for not living in E”Y. Just because there are non religious people there, doesn’t take away the Mitzvah and the Kedusha.

    #1766272

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Hpo
    Thank-you for reiterating my point
    However as I mentioned, the question of whether everyone should move to א”י is an old question. Nobody that you can bring can prove anything because there are plenty of equally strong opinions on the other side.

    #1766293

    Ayelets
    Participant

    Rav Hutner made Aliyah around 1970.

    #1766319

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ayelets
    That’s wonderful
    What’s your point?

    #1766320

    Nerli
    Participant

    Never before in History have we been invited to live in a land that is ours. We have cryed for so many years to Hashem to give us back Eretz Yisroel and now that we have it . Are we running. When Moshiach comes will we say the same thing?

    Yes I too have my ‘excuses’ the yetzer hora has a way of making it seem like it’s a mitzvah that I am not there after all my husband and I are doing outreach work. I cannot speak for the other gedolum that didn’t. Only for my self my neshama

    The Torah we learn, the parshas we learn weekly . Is that just some whimsical tale. True there is work to be done in Eretz Yisroel not just with our blood and bones but with our Torah and one to be a walking living example to other israelis. Without the judging .

    I know in my heart I need to make Aliyah . I also know there will be tough decision as my husband whom I love will not go. I plan on making split Aliyah sooner then later and iyh if it’s supposed to be one day he will join me. My love for the land of my forefathers and mother’s is calling my name.

    Please wish me hatzlacha in fulfilling a lifelong dream. How I will manage financially? I am not 100% sure. But I know Hashem will come through and I can work. It’s the only land that by treading on is a mitzvah the only land that wants me and the only land I will feel at home amongst family. Yes fighting, shouting, arguing , protecting and love. This is family. This is Israel. This is the only country I will fight and invest myself into politics. When ones hone is burning one can’t keep quiet. Am Yisroel chai

    #1766640

    Ayelets
    Participant

    Indeed in a few weeks we will be reading in the first Aliyah in Eikev, ‘b Miskainus lo Tochal bah lechem’. Hashem says you will not have any problems financially. Miskainoos, means as a nebach. I don’t know why people assume it will be harder for them financiallly. I would say certain goods and services, that are so cheap in the states, you can do without. I am hoping also to make Aliyah in the next few years.

    #1767372

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Aim Habonim Samecho brings a proof that Avraham Avinu went to Mitzraim because of hunger seeing that you can leave Eretz Yisroel for the necessity of a livelihood.

    #1767413

    Rosen
    Participant

    Take a look at the Ramban in THIS WEEKS PARSHA on the posuk “vhorashtem es Yoshvei Haaretz Veyshavtem Bah”, that there’s a mitzvah dorayasah to live in Eretz Yisroel bzman hazeh. The fact that the government isn’t frum and there is a lot of Chilul shabbos is sad, but doesn’t take away the mitzvah. The Ramban doesn’t say there is a mitzvah only if the government is frum.
    There may be reasons that a family is “patur” from Aliyah- if one realy can’t make a living or has older kids that can’t adjust– ask your Ruv.

    #1767620

    Avi K
    Participant

    Klugeryid, Achav was much worse but he was considered to be a king (Sanhedrin 20b Tosofot d”h melech mutar).

    Lieberman is not the state. Even Louis XIV would agree. In any case, I do not believe that he is really anti-religious. In fact, he and Deri were buddy buddy. In 2003 he was part of the National Union. He is a cynical politician. He knows that that his base of older olim from the former Soviet Union is aging and he needs a new card. This is why he only received only five seats in the last election, down from fifteen in 2009.

    As for the other problems you mentioned, nobody said that it is perfect. However, there is improvement. If you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem make aliya.

    #1768558

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I’m not looking to fix others problems
    You asked why people aren’t running to live in e y
    I am answering, it’s no different today then it’s been since the churban.
    You claim it’s a Jewish state
    To that I am responding it’s as Jewish as bagels and lox.
    Aka Jewish in name only. A meaningless moniker.
    It’s anti religious in the fullest sense.
    And I’m not so sure about your comparison to achav
    Remember an amora got in trouble for comparing himself to Menasha

    #1768584

    UniqueUsername
    Participant

    I”ll add my two agurot.
    I don’t know if it’s an obligation or a good idea or just plain permissible to make Aliyah.
    But how could someone seriously say that it is assur? The issue is discussed by the nosei keilim on Even HaEzer siman 75, especially the Pitchei Tshuva – the opinion of R. Chaim in Tosafot that it is assur is a talmid toeh and is not considered a valid shita.
    Lets look at some statistical projections – In a few short years a majority of the world’s Jews will be living in Israel – Eretz Yisrael. I think eveyone could agree that is a tremendous thing.
    For about 50 years ahead – it is projected that they”ll be about 20 million Jews in the world of which 80% will be in Israel (that’s about 16 million). You don’t want your grandchildren to be part of this? What is going to be left of American Jewry by that point?
    In terms of Torah and Mitzvot – in my experience, much further ahead here on this one. Simple example, I recite Birkat Kohanim (duchanin) every day. For just that, it was worth making aliyah 25 years ago.

    #1768643

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Unique
    I think you are arguing a straw man.
    Who claims it is assur?
    Even satmar lives there.
    I thought the question is
    is it a mitzvah ?
    Chiyuv ?
    Rishush ?

    #1768598

    מאמרי הראיה ב, הקריאה הגדולה לארץ ישראל
    אֶת הַקְּרִיאָה הַזֹּאת נִקְרָא בְּקוֹל אֶחָד, בְּקוֹל גָּדוֹל וְלֹא יָסָף. 

    בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, אַחִים נְעִימִים, בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, הַצִּילוּ אֶת נַפְשׁוֹתֵיכֶם, אֶת נֶפֶשׁ דּוֹרוֹתֵיכֶם, וְאֶת נֶפֶשׁ עַמֵּנוּ כֻּלּוֹ, הַצִּילוּהוּ מִשּׁוֹמֵמוּת וְטִמְיוֹן, הַצִּילוּהוּ מֵרֶקֶב וְהַשְׁפָּלָה, הַצִּילוּהוּ מִכָּל טֻמְאָה וְרִשְׁעָה, מִכָּל צָרָה וְצוּקָה, שֶׁהוּא עָלוּל אֲלֵיהֶם בְּכָל אַרְצוֹת הָעַמִּים בְּלִי הֶבְדֵּל וְהֶפְרֵשׁ.

    “בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל!” נִקְרָא בְּקוֹל נוֹרָא וּמַרְעִישׁ, בְּקוֹל רַעַם וְרַעַשׁ גָּדוֹל, בְּקוֹל מְחוֹלֵל סְעָרָה וּמַרְגִּיז שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ, בְּקוֹל קוֹרֵעַ כָּל קִירוֹת לֵב. הִמָּלְטוּ עַל נַפְשְׁכֶם וּבֹאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל.
    ֿ
    קוֹל ד’ קוֹרֵא אוֹתָנוּ, יָדוֹ נְטוּיָה עָלֵינוּ, רוּחוֹ אֲשֶׁר בִּלְבָבֵנוּ הוּא מְקַבֵּץ אוֹתָנוּ הוּא מְעוֹדְדֵנוּ, וְהוּא מַכְרִיחַ אוֹתָנוּ כֻּלָּנוּ לִקְרֹא בְּקוֹל גָּדוֹל אַדִּיר וְנוֹרָא: אַחֵינוּ בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל,

    אַחִים אֲהוּבִים וִיקָרִים, בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, הִלָּקְטוּ לְאַחַד אֶחָד, אַל תַּמְתִּינוּ עַל סְדָרִים וּדְבָרִים רִשְׁמִיִּים, אַל תַּמְתִּינוּ עַל רִשְׁיוֹנוֹת מַרְעִישִׁים וּמְפֻרְסָמִים, עֲשׂוּ מַה שֶּׁתּוּכְלוּ, הִמָּלְטוּ וְהֵאָסְפוּ בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, סֹלּוּ סֹלּוֹ הַמְסִלָּה בְּעַד עַמֵּנוּ הָאָהוּב וְהַנִּדְכָּא, הַרְאוּ לוֹ בְּפֹעַל שֶׁדַּרְכּוֹ כְּבָר מוּכֶנֶת הִיא לְפָנָיו וּסְלוּלָה, אֵין לוֹ מַה לְּהִתְיַשֵּׁב, אֵין לוֹ מַה לִּדְרֹשׁ, אֵין לוֹ דְּרָכִים וּנְתִיבוֹת רַבִּים, דֶּרֶךְ אֶחָד יֵשׁ לְפָנָיו, וְדַוְקָא בָּהּ יֵלֵךְ, וּבָהּ הוּא מֻכְרָח לָלֶכֶת, דַּוְקָא לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל.

    הַנִּצָּנִים נִרְאוּ בָאָרֶץ. בֹּאוּ אַחִים יְקָרִים וּרְאוּ אֵיךְ שׁוֹשַׁנַּת יַעֲקֹב מַתְחֶלֶת לִפְרֹחַ עַל אַדְמַת הַקֹּדֶשׁ
    . בֹּאוּ לִרְאוֹת אֵיךְ רוּחַ יִשְׂרָאֵל פּוֹרֵחַ וּמִתְעוֹרֵר לִתְחִיָּה, לְחַיִּים לְכָבוֹד וָעֹז.

    הֲתֵדְעוּ אַתֶּם אַחִים אֲהוּבִים, אַחִים אֻמְלָלִים יוֹשְׁבֵי אֲרָצוֹת מַאְפֵּלְיוֹת, אֶת הָאוֹצָר הַגָּדוֹל שֶׁל הַקְּדֻשָּׁה וְהַמְּנוּחָה, שֶׁל הָעֹנֶג וְהַשַּׁלְוָה, שֶׁל רוֹמְמוּת הָרוּחַ, וְשֶׁל גְּדֻלַּת הַנֶּפֶשׁ, שֶׁל קְדֻשַּׁת הַחַיִּים, שֶׁל אַדִּירוּת הָרַעְיוֹן וַעֲדִינוּת הָרֶגֶשׁ, שֶׁיֵּשׁ בְּכָל לֵב שֶׁל יִשְׂרָאֵל הַיּוֹשֵׁב בְּאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל•? הוֹי אַחִים יְקָרִים, הֲתוּכְלוּ גַּם לְשַׁעֵר אֲפִלּוּ מְעַט מֵהַרְבֵּה מֵחִבַּת אֶרֶץ חֶמְדָּה, חִבַּת קֹדֶשׁ וְחֶמְדַּת עוֹלָמִים, הָאָרֶץ כִּי טוֹב מְנוּחָה כִּי נָעֵמָה?!
    בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל,

    בֹּאוּ וּרְאוּ הֲדַר אֶרֶץ חֶמְדָּה, הֲדַר הַכַּרְמֶל וְהַשָּׁרוֹן, הֲדַר שְׁמֵי הַתְּכֵלֶת הַנָּאִים וְהַיָּפִים, הֲדַר הָאֲוִיר הַצַּח הַטָּהוֹר וּמְמֻזָּג, הַשּׂוֹרֵר בְּהוֹדוֹ וַהֲדָרוֹ, גַּם בִּתְקוּפַת טֵבֵת, בֹּאוּ וְהִתְעַנְּגוּ וְשִׂישׂוּ מָשׂוֹשׂ עַל אֶרֶץ חֶמְדָּה הַנָּאָה וְהַמְעֻנָּגָה, אֶרֶץ הַחַיִּים שֶׁאֲוִירָהּ הוּא חַיֵּי נְשָׁמוֹת. מַה יָּפִית וּמַה נָּעַמְתְּ!
    בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, בֹּאוּ וּרְאוּ “וְשָׂשׂ לִבְּכֶם וְעַצְמוֹתֵיכֶם כַּדֶּשֶׁא תִפְרַחְנָה” (ישעיה סו, יד). בֹּאוּ וּרְאוּ, אֵיךְ עַמֵּנוּ הָאָהוּב וְהַיָּקָר מְחַדֵּשׁ כַּנֶּשֶׁר אֶת נְעוּרָיו, אֵיךְ הוּא מַתְחִיל פּוֹשֵׁט בִּרְוָחָה אֶת עַצְמוֹתָיו הַכּוֹאֲבוֹת וְהַמְפֻצָּחוֹת מִימֵי נְדוּדוֹ וְגָלוּתוֹ הַמָּרָה, בֹּאוּ וּרְאוּ אֵיךְ מִתְרַגֵּל הוּא לִזְקֹף כְּתָמָר אֶת קוֹמָתוֹ, בֹּאוּ וְחוּשׁוּ אֵיךְ הוּא מְעוֹדֵד אֶת רוּחוֹ, בְּזָכְרוֹ אֶת חָסְנוֹ וּגְאוֹנוֹ.
    בֹּאוּ לְאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, פֹּה תִּרְאוּ חֲזוּת הַכֹּל, פֹּה תֵּדְעוּ שֶׁאַתֶּם חָיִים חַיִּים שֶׁהֵם רְאוּיִים לִשְׁמָם, בְּאֶרֶץ הַחַיִּים.

    #1768599

    מאמרי הראיה ב, הקריאה הגדולה לארץ ישראל

    #1768805

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Your point?

    #1768827

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Neither Lenin or Stalin were jewish however many of the other early Bolshevicks were

    Trotsky was Jewish
    Zinoviev Was Jewish
    Kamenev had a jewish Father

    #1768869

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Thanks zd
    So I guess that’s makers totalitarian communism Jewish.
    Do any of us really have a good excuse why we don’t search for remaining dockets of it and move there?

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