Drafting Chareidim

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  • #608249

    To all G-D fearing Jews who support drafting chareidim into the army:1)Do you think Hashem performed countless miracles to protect the Jews in Eretz Yisroel so that they could join the army or so that they could learn His Torah?

    2)How can you disagree with the Gedolim who are opposed to drafting chareidim?

    #961635
    kfb
    Participant

    I am a G-d fearing Jew. I believe that if the law of the land says to go to the army, you go. Especially if the country is very accommodating to your needs. They’re not drafting all chareidim. Also I try my hardest to listen to what the gedolim and I have the upmost respect for them, however you have to make decisions on your own, that’s why Hashem gave us bechira. There were gedolim who told their chassidim to stay in Poland and Germany during the war and boy were they wrong! Gedolim are human beings; they are not perfect. (a side not- didnt the gedolim ban the Internet?)

    #961636
    funnybone
    Participant

    Here’s my personal opinion; people should learn torah as much as possible. Yeshiva bochurim and young married people should stay in yeshiva and learn.

    That being said, I don’t know how to explain to a non-observant Jew that they should fight a war and let the chareidim learn. Our learning is as important as them risking their lives in a war?? You can explain that?? Our learning guards them so that they come back alive? Do they believe that if they don’t even keep Shabbos?

    #961637
    akuperma
    Participant

    If the goal is to preserve Israel as a zionist state, it is critical for the zionists to solve the pending demographic cliff. At current birthrates, and given that “baalei tseuvah” are more common than “off the derekh”, by the end of the 21st century, Israel will have a hareidi majority. Well before that, the hareidim in Israel will become a critical player since they have the option of allying with non-hareidi religious, as well as with the Arabs (an option for no other party in Israel).

    The zionists have correctly determined they need to put a stop to the hareidi growth problem. Based on past experience, if you take a hareidi teenager and force him to spend three years eating food that is borderline kosher (which is the situation unless you are in a special religious unit), keeping Shabbos according to some very creative interpretations of halacha, etc., a certain percentage will go off the derekh. If you look at other countries, such as the American Jewish community after the Revolution, the Civil War, and the world wars – there is certainly a reason for the zionists to hope that mass conscription into regular army units will enable a preservation of the zionist majority.

    Lapid thinks many ex-hareidim will, like his family, become hiloni. Bennett believes they will end up as “religious zionists”. The army thinks this is a recipe for disaster and will try to isolate hareidi soldiers in special units – noting that unlike the siutations in America above, if the leading Bnei Torah are drafted they will influence the other soldiers, hareidi and dati, leading to widespread disobedience of orders in the army and undermining the army. An added complication is some hareidi who hold that Medinat Yisrael exists contrary to Torah (meaning the Israelis are the “Rodef”, and therefore have no right to kill the Arabs) will refuse to serve in the army, and force the Israelis to arrest them (triggering possible international sanctions) or in effect allow anyone to refuse military service for reasons of “religion and conscience” (giving Israel a volunteer army, similar to most other countries in the 21st century).

    It will be “Interesting” – as in the famous curse, “may you live in interesting times.”

    #961638
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You know why they don’t want them in the army? Because after they join the army, they’ll overthrow the tzionim. Let me tell you about the new ??? ????; if you break shabbos, you get sekilah. Just like the Torah says.

    #961639
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Charedim are the fastest growing segment of the Israeli (and Jewish population as a whole) at some point in the near future 2030-2050 that will be the majority of the population and soon after that a super Majority (say 70% or more).

    The math doesnt work, you cannot have 70% of the population sitting a kollel while the rest do the army, work , pay taxes and support the other 70% while trying to support their own families

    #961640
    chevron
    Member

    We need to keep things in balance. We should have a Yissoschor / Zevulin relationship. 50% of Klal Yisroel (and Israelis) should be learning all day and 50% should be working (and supporting the learners.)

    #961641
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charedim are the fastest growing segment of the Israeli (and Jewish population as a whole) at some point in the near future 2030-2050 that will be the majority of the population and soon after that a super Majority (say 70% or more).

    Make that 100%, because once they’re a majority, the chilonim aren’t going to want to live there anymore. Because they’ll make them keep the torah.

    #961642
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    however you have to make decisions on your own, that’s why Hashem gave us bechira.

    No, He gave us bechirah so that our actions deserve reward, and He instructed us “uvacharta bachaim”. Bechira doesn’t mean it’s a free-for-all.

    There were gedolim who told their chassidim to stay in Poland and Germany during the war and boy were they wrong! Gedolim are human beings; they are not perfect.

    But I guess you’re omnipotent? See, what you’ve just done is create a straw man to argue against. Gedolim don’t have to be perfect or be able to see the future to be the safest bet to follow.

    #961643
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Make that 100%, because once they’re a majority, the chilonim aren’t going to want to live there anymore. Because they’ll make them keep the torah.

    Probably true at some , The Non Charedim will leave rapidly .

    Then you will have 100% (or close to it) of people not serving.

    #961644
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Then you will have 100% (or close to it) of people not serving.

    Not quite.

    Because then they won’t mind serving, because they won’t worry about being shmadded in the army, and they will be protecting a state which they think is legitimate and worth protecting.

    #961645
    sh9888
    Member

    At the time of the maskilim, they put on a show poking fun at charedim. It went like this:

    the enemy came to attack. the jewish army was massive and strong. then the leader of the nation got up and declared:

    anyone who planted a vineyard and hasn’t seen fruit, go home. anyone who married within the last year, go home. anyone who is worried about his sins, go home. And who was left to fight? a handful of older scholars against the fierce enemy!

    This was supposed to be a very funny joke, based on what is written in tanach.

    But the point is, we need to remember that thats how it really was – and we won. (when we merited Hashems help)

    ??? ???? ???? ?????? – ?????? ??? ?’ ??????? ?????

    I don’t expect people who have no idea what judaism is to know – but i do think that religious jews should have a bit more trust in G-d and a bit more ????? ?????.

    We need to do what G-d says, and we’ll leave the math to Him.

    According to “math” – the jewish nation should have been extinct years ago. We need zechuyos to continue.

    #961646
    Naftush
    Member

    To some of you who’ve posted to this thread, I can only hope you’re being tongue-in-cheek when wishing the apocalypse upon the Jews in Israel: civil strife, imposed observance, expulsion, collusion with the Arabs to destroy the country, etc. My hope is for your sanity, not for the disproving of your visions/hopes, because they’re being disproved on the ground every moment. For example:

    1. Army food is kosher, period. Not sorta/kinda. It may be deficient on hiddurim (although less and less so), but it’s kosher.

    2. Every Shabbat rule in the army is fully grounded in halakha. A whole library has been produced on the topic in recent years.

    3. There’s a demographic slope but no demographic cliff. All Jewish population groups in EY have healthy birth rates.

    4. It’s a waste of time to count “BTs” versus “OTDs.” Nearly half of Israeli Jews make at least one major switch in religious orientation in their lifetimes; some make more.

    5. Those who narrow the views of the gedolim down to “assur” and “no” are crediting the gedolim with the intelligence of doorstops. Is this what emunat hakhamim has come to?

    I could go on but my workday isn’t over (I’m self-employed and the boss is abusing his prerogatives as usual). Let’s just say that Israel is, guess what, a state. States do things in state ways. Israel has been so successful as a state that one cannot explain it without crediting Hashem — unless one denies that success outright and relishes the country’s failure, which to my mind is monumental ingratitude to HKBH.

    #961647
    Josh31
    Participant

    “the enemy came to attack”

    In such a case the exemptions do not apply.

    I have learning about the Lechem HaPanim (Show bread) in the Temple. Even though miracles occurred with it, we had to make every effort to prevent it from spoiling.

    #961648
    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“Then you will have 100% (or close to it) of people not serving.

    Not quite.

    Because then they won’t mind serving, because they won’t worry about being shmadded in the army, and they will be protecting a state which they think is legitimate and worth protecting.”

    Wrong for two reasons:

    1. If most people in EY are or start keeping the Torah and I’m Not including Fakers which hide amongst Frumme, then Moshiach will be here and there won’t be any need for an army.

    2. If even Ch’vs Moshiach doesn’t come -there still won’t be need for an army. You could hire just a few people to serve and that would be enough. All Avrohom Aveinu needed was some sand. The Hishtadlus to protect us against Goyim would be minimal, if even that much.

    #961649
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I can only hope you’re being tongue-in-cheek when wishing the apocalypse upon the Jews in Israel: civil strife, imposed observance, expulsion, collusion with the Arabs to destroy the country, etc.

    I’m curious that you find imposed observance, as described in the Torah, to be a apocalypse.

    #961650
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Popa, “Naftush” is an RZ troll who doesn’t like imposed observance because he doesn’t like observance, period. He’s been chased off the forum several times for it.

    Takes one to know one.

    #961651
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    To be fair, he may be concerned that he will be forced to observe in a way that he thinks is not necessary from a halachic viewpoint.

    For example, you would be upset if the mizrachi became the majority and forced you to go get a secular education because they think that is a mitzva.

    #961652
    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    The Torah does not describe imposed observance on a mass scale. It describes maintained observance by on rare occasions enforcing Religious law. When the Sanhedrin starting executing too many people, because the Torah was not being kept, they didn’t ratchet up the enforcement, they quit.

    It just won’t work against a large segment of the population.

    #961653
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And for that matter if Satmar forced you to live the way they do.

    #961654
    benignuman
    Participant

    TorahHaskafa,

    To answer your questions:

    1) That is a false choice. I think Hashem performed all those miracles because (to the extent that it possible to fathom why Hashem does anything) Hashem loves the Jewish people and protects them to allow to keep Torah and Mitzvos in Eretz Yisroel. One of those mitzvos is saving lives and providing physical protection of the Jewish people and the land.

    2) I agree with the Gedolim that support drafting Chareidim.

    #961655
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Torah does not describe imposed observance on a mass scale. It describes maintained observance by on rare occasions enforcing Religious law. When the Sanhedrin starting executing too many people, because the Torah was not being kept, they didn’t ratchet up the enforcement, they quit.

    It just won’t work against a large segment of the population.

    So the argument is that it won’t work. If it doesn’t work, then presumably they’ll stop doing it.

    But you of course agree that it is proper to force torah observance even on a mass scale.

    Also, we have more resources than they had then. Chizkiya sent agents to search people’s houses for avoda zara, but they would worship after the agents left. But today, you can just bug the houses.

    #961656
    benignuman
    Participant

    Perhaps I should rephrase to clarify. The system wasn’t meant to impose observance on large group that doesn’t want to observe the law.

    A Sanhedrin should not be executing people left and right. If, to enforce the Torah law, they are required to execute to many people, they will stop enforcing the law, not ratchet up the enforcement.

    All this is theoretical, of course. There is no Bais Din today that has the authority to use corporal punishment.

    Whether or not it is proper to force Torah observance on a large scale depends on what is meant. If you mean there is broad nationwide acceptance of Torah observance and what is necessary is a mass scale system of enforcement on the occasional infraction, then yes. If you mean that there is large minority that do not wish to observe the Torah at all, and you mean forcing them at gunpoint to keep the Torah, then no.

    #961657
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    @Benignuman

    I don’t know why you are making up halacha.

    #961658
    chevron
    Member

    Benignuman: Which Gedolim support forcing the draft on Chareidim who hold that it is assur to serve? Who supports imposing their view on others who hold otherwise? I haven’t heard of any Gedolim taking such a position.

    #961659
    benignuman
    Participant

    Popa,

    What are you talking about?

    Chevron,

    I support drafting the Chareidim into the army, I don’t necessarily support forcing them to serve if they genuinely hold it is assur (I assume you are referring to those who hold that working with the Medina on anything is treif altz hischabrus with reshaim).

    #961660
    chevron
    Member

    How do you not force someone who was drafted to serve?

    #961661
    benignuman
    Participant

    Everyone is drafted. They come in for their interview and if they claim that they are from the groups that hold it is assur, their claim will be investigated. If it holds up they will be given a p’tur conditioned on their never taking financial aid from the Government.

    #961662
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“2) I agree with the Gedolim that support drafting Chareidim.”

    Funny, I never heard one Rabbi (even if you hold they are Gedolim) from the MO/Mizrachi community saying you have to force Charedim into the army. All they ever said was -you’re allowed to go -it’s a Mitzva to go. All of a sudden – it’s now e/o has to go. Stop with your lies already!

    Oh, sorry for the above -you have Gedolim that say that and their names are Lapid and Bennett!

    #961663
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Without a Sanhedrin you cannot have a torah society.

    You cannot have a Beis Hillel/Beis Shammai Ellu V’Ellu situation

    What happens if for example Rav Shteinman say what you did is Chayiv Missah and Rav Yosef says its muttar. Who is correct. It isnt academic anymore if the ability to carry out Skilah is done.

    You need to have to same law for everyone

    #961664

    benignuman,which do you think is more important to the national security of Eretz Yisroel,learning Torah or joining the army?

    #961665
    benignuman
    Participant

    Health,

    On a previous thread I listed the Mizrachi Gedolim that held that there is a chiyuv to participate in the army, chiyuvis not just kiyumis. Maybe we understand the word chiyuv differently.

    More importantly, as I wrote above, I don’t mean that someone should be forced at gunpoint into the army. They should be drafted and have to come down for an interview. If they claim that they hold it is assur on the grounds that the entire Medinah is treif and being in the army is an assur of hischabrus, then they will receive a patur, but they will also be ineligible for any financial assistance from the treifene medinah.

    #961666
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So, if I understand correctly, it’s not okay to force people to keep Shabbos and kashrus, if they would prefer to be mechallel Shabbos and eat tarfus. It is okay, however, to force people into the army if they would prefer to stay in yeshivah. Is that correct?

    #961667
    benignuman
    Participant

    TorahHashkafa,

    It is not a matter of one is more or less than the other. They are both necessary and they operate on different planes.

    It is like asking what is more important for a Jew to live, eating food or learning Torah and keeping Mitzvos. If you don’t eat you will die, but if you don’t learn Torah and keep Mitzvos, what is life worth?

    #961668
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So, if I understand correctly, it’s not okay to force people to keep Shabbos and kashrus, if they would prefer to be mechallel Shabbos and eat tarfus. It is okay, however, to force people into the army if they would prefer to stay in yeshivah. Is that correct?

    Whose Shabbos and Whose Kashruth. Can you force people to eat Chalov Yisroel. What if one Rav permits using an Eruv on Shabbos and another forbids it?

    #961669
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, I don’t get your point. We can have Torah society without a Sanhedrin, we just can’t carry out punishments.

    If we had a Sanhedrin, it wouldn’t be up to R’ Shteinman and Chacham Ovadiah, it would be up to the Sanhedrin (they would both likely be members).

    #961670
    About Time
    Participant

    p.s. Excerpt from Ruth Blau, convert to Judaism, in her autobiography. Trail to Truth.

    #961671
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“On a previous thread I listed the Mizrachi Gedolim that held that there is a chiyuv to participate in the army, chiyuvis not just kiyumis. Maybe we understand the word chiyuv differently.”

    No, Avi K, you’re are just misinterpreting their words for your twisted politics. Telling s/o who asks you a Shaila (a MO Rabbi) that you should go to the IDF and saying that the Israeli Gov. should draft (ie -force) Charedim into the army against their will, is Not the same thing, no matter how much you Scream it is!

    “More importantly, as I wrote above, I don’t mean that someone should be forced at gunpoint into the army. They should be drafted and have to come down for an interview. If they claim that they hold it is assur on the grounds that the entire Medinah is treif and being in the army is an assur of hischabrus, then they will receive a patur, but they will also be ineligible for any financial assistance from the treifene medinah.”

    You’re one of the biggest hypocrite, lying, Zionists here.

    Drafting them you claim is Not being forced -then why is it a draft? You claim the forcing is Not for jail time, but to lose Gov. money. Since when did the Israeli Gov. give people Kollel checks in the first place? Oh, you mean take away their social programs because they are commiting a crime. So therefore they are second-class citizens – even lower than arabs. But you just said the army will give them a Patur? Obviously you don’t know what Patur from the IDF means! I never seen such double talk and contradictions in one post ever before.

    Cool it before we have to start deleting your posts.

    #961672
    About Time
    Participant

    Published: Sunday, February 10, 2013

    Rabbi Eliezer Melamed

    The writer is Head of Yeshivat Har Bracha and a prolific author on Jewish Law, whose works include the series on Jewish law “Pininei Halacha” and a popular weekly column “Revivim” in the Besheva newspaper. His books “The Laws of Prayer” “The Laws of Passover” and “Nation, Land, Army” are presently being translated into English.

    The time has come to deal with the issue of the Jewish character of the State of Israel, and to regulate the fundamental principles underlying the status-quo in legislation, now that close to 40 MK’s are religiously observant.

    Recently, calls for a review of the status-quo in regards to religious matters have been voiced. Indeed so! The time has come to deal with the issue of the Jewish character of the State of Israel, and to regulate the fundamental principles underlying the status-quo in legislation.

    Judaism and Democracy

    A committee of distinguished rabbis and legal representatives should be established to prepare a set of basic and ordinary laws, in order to legally regulate the Jewish character of the State of Israel.

    The Individual and the Collective

    #961673
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    ZD, I don’t get your point. We can have Torah society without a Sanhedrin, we just can’t carry out punishments.

    If we had a Sanhedrin, it wouldn’t be up to R’ Shteinman and Chacham Ovadiah, it would be up to the Sanhedrin (they would both likely be members)

    So what would be the halachas?

    How is someone supposed to know them if 2 Gedolim disagree on them

    A sanhedrin would solve that problem since they would be the final arbitor of Halacha

    #961674
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You ask, “So what would be the halachas?”.

    You then write, “A sanhedrin would solve that problem since they would be the final arbitor of Halacha”, answering your own question.

    I still don’t understand what you are trying to say.

    #961675
    About Time
    Participant

    IDF Chief Rabbi Peretz Fires Back

    (Thursday, January 5th, 2012)

    Rabbi Levanon is joined by Rabbi Eliezer Melamed of Har Bracha and others.

    #961676
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You then write, “A sanhedrin would solve that problem since they would be the final arbitor of Halacha”, answering your own question.

    I meant to say since there isnt a Sanhedrin and wont be until Moshiach comes. How are you supposed to have a Torah Society?

    You have to have one law for everyone , otherwise it doesnt work.

    #961677
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So, if I understand correctly, it’s not okay to force people to keep Shabbos and kashrus, if they would prefer to be mechallel Shabbos and eat tarfus. It is okay, however, to force people into the army if they would prefer to stay in yeshivah. Is that correct?

    Whose Shabbos and Whose Kashruth. Can you force people to eat Chalov Yisroel. What if one Rav permits using an Eruv on Shabbos and another forbids it?

    That’s beside the point. I was pointing out the incongruity of Benignuman’s position.

    #961678

    benignuman,if learning Torah and serving in the army are “both necessary and they operate on different planes”then why should one who chooses to learn Torah “be ineligible for any financial assistance”?

    #961679
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    That’s beside the point. I was pointing out the incongruity of Benignuman’s position

    That is my point, the halacha in many cases is ambiguious (Ellu V Ellu). Until this problem is solved one halacha for everyone , it is impossible.

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but what if there are several laws that contradict (One Rav says Assur and another says Muttar)

    #961680
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I meant to say since there isnt a Sanhedrin and wont be until Moshiach comes. How are you supposed to have a Torah Society?

    You have to have one law for everyone , otherwise it doesnt work.

    Are you referring to an individual, or the “Basic Law” proposed by Rabbi Melamed?

    If the former, then as we currently do, those who are qualified decide what the halachah is, and those who aren’t, ask those who are (AKA AYLOR).

    If you mean the latter, then until Moshiach comes, we have to take a more lenient approach, while allowing individuals to be as stringent as their opinions or those of their poskim tell the to be.

    #961681
    About Time
    Participant

    “I meant to say since there isnt a Sanhedrin and wont be until Moshiach comes. How are you supposed to have a Torah Society? …

    If you mean the latter, then until Moshiach comes, we have to take a more lenient approach, while allowing individuals to be as stringent as their opinions or those of their poskim tell the to be.”

    Precisely.

    An example would be even though the Ashkenazi poskim held that the concept that Ethiopians should be considered jews was weak, they held their peace when R’ Ovadia Yosef ruled otherwise.

    Nevertheless, as Menachem Begin responded when there was a demand to ammend the Conversion Law, that conversion is Halacha which belongs to the realm of Poskim.

    (Begin in his straightfowardness would pass over the heads of Mizrachi to discuss religious questions with the gedolim of the chareidi world.)

    #961682
    About Time
    Participant

    Here’s from the inside

    In Ariel Sharon’s still unpublished memoirs, there is correspondence between Sharon and Ben Gurion dated 1959. Sharon recommended that from a Military View it would be better to cut the draft to, say 4-6 months, then move all those soldiers to the reserves and send them home.

    The budget should be spent more efficiently on professional career officers.

    (This was from 1959!, more than half a century ago in a much more beleaguered Israel. This would obviate drafting women as women don’t serve in ‘miluim’)

    #961683
    benignuman
    Participant

    There has been a misunderstanding of my position on both ends.

    1) I was initially responding to Popa’s claim that we would Make the Chilonim keep the Torah. I was saying that the Torah provides no mechanism by which this can be done. The individual punishments of malkus and misa are not meant to be used as a club to force compliance on a broad sector of a society.

    I did not say that we should not, or could not, have a society that is run al pi Torah. We can pass laws making it illegal for a store to be open on Shabbos. We can require all eateries to keep a basic level of Kashrus. We should not however pass a law that says if you put a piece of cheese on your hamburger you get fined X shekalim or you go to jail. (Is an atheist who keeps the Torah at gunpoint better than the atheist that keeps nothing at all?)

    In other words we can establish that society will run al pi Torah in the public sphere, but we can’t legislate what people do in the privacy of their homes, even if we are the majority.

    2) The purpose of the draft is that it forces people to make a choice whether or not they are willing to put their money where their mouth is with respect to the Medinah. If someone holds the Medinah is treif, then why should he get money from the Medinah, why should he get unemployment, child checks and free health care?

    I don’t think that anyone should be forced at gunpoint to be a soldier (do you really want a disloyal soldier on the battlefield).

    This is presupposing that the frum army units will be run al pi halacha.

    As an aside, I find it truly ironic that some people will, in the same breath, say that it is proper to force people to keep all of halacha, but then say that no Gadol has held that Chareidim should be forced into the army, while admitting that there have been Gedolim that held it was a chiyuv to serve in the army.

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