April 28, 2021 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1969070
How do we know that they were mostly vaccinated? In our shul we relaxed mask wearing but distancing is still recommended. Look what is going on in India?April 28, 2021 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1969108
Reb E – so that’s the answer? Even tho CDC says that they can have a full house indoors if vaccinated they have decided only to allow 200 because maybe they were not really vaccinated?
Does it really make sense to you that they don’t have that information? Is it just not a priority that all members of the houses get to show up to work for the finally happening although late address when they can do so while following the CDC guidelines?
Don’t worry, you don’t have to answer those other questions. The one you answered already was good enough.April 28, 2021 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1969128
@yserbius123, your post is so full of lies, I don’t know where to begin.
>The discussion about the flu was you comparing apples to oranges and accusing me of being as callous and uncaring as you are.<
This is just words. In the whole thread you could not give a valid argument as to why the flu should be treated differently. You twisted yourself into a pretzel, even going as far as to claim you are ready to admit that you do not care about flu deaths if I admit that I do not care about Covid deaths.
Calling them apples, oranges or bananas, is word game and does not change the facts.
>The truth is, to protect others from the flu you don’t need to wear a mask all the time. <
This is simply false. Masks do more to prevent the Flu than Covid.
>You just have to be careful not to go out in public with a fever, or to be extra careful when the flu is going around.<
What does “more careful” mean? Wouldn’t masks help at all?
>Unfortunately, COVID is much more contagious so that’s not good enough. You have to wear a mask.<
For the upteenth time at what point does “more” make a difference?
>Your statement shows your true intentions. You are inconvenienced by being forced to wear a mask. Kal V’Chomer you are inconvenienced by lockdowns, no minyamin, washing hands, etc.<
Elementary, my dear Watson, how on earth did you figure that out? Woe is to me, for I have been found guilty of being inconvenienced by wearing a face diaper, and losing a job!
Seriously @yserbius123, what does my personal experience have to do with this argument?
I absolutely did not agree with that statement
There is no denying it. You do not want to “demand that people should mask to protect others” from the flu, therefore you agree with that statement and you are therefore, in your own words, pro-death.April 28, 2021 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1969170MenoParticipant
So CDC now says that people who are vaccinated can be in a room together with other vaccinated people with NO masks and NO social distancing.
Although they don’t give a hard limit, the CDC’s guidelines strongly imply that this only applies to small private gatherings. It’s clear that the intent was not for large indoor gatherings.
Not saying I agree with the guidelines, just trying to be fair.April 28, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1969193
Syag, RebE, ATTENTION! maybe you misunderstood symbols on CDC website? or are you reading tem somewhere further on the site. I just looked at the front page and clicked “choosing safer activities”
the symbol for (fylly?) vaccinated people – outdoor activities without masks, for small indoor gathering – with masks.April 29, 2021 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1969485
Excellent (Axcellent?) alliteration. But no truth.
In fact, the alliteration is so good, it makes me wonder whether MadeAlliyah is being paid for his posts or getting outside help. Let me emphasize: I have no evidence other than the axcellent alliteration. And that is a long way from proof.April 29, 2021 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1969507ParticipantParticipant
I guess someone who resorts to misspelling excellent in order to be alliterative thinks that anyone who could do so properly must be a professional. and something makes you think ma isn’t a professional.
or is there some other explanation for your crypticity?April 29, 2021 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1969570
The Biden Speech was done with masks as dictated by the CDC to wear indoors but exempting outdoors in small groups.April 30, 2021 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1969781
To Participant: My post was neither (i) hilarious, nor (ii) satire, nor (iii) hilarious satire. Fauci has been a distinguished medical expert for over 30 years. Anyone who does not know that is (a) not paying attention, which is OK, or (b) misinformed, which might be OK, or (c) stupid, which is not OK.April 30, 2021 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1969782
I should add, regarding the opening post, that it is excellently alliterated. But that does not make it true.May 6, 2021 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1971672
>Fauci has been a distinguished medical expert for over 30 years<
That’s exactly the problem. He is the most celebrated doctor in the country, yet he openly admits that he is lying to the public.May 6, 2021 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1971697
MadeAliyah, he said that Israel has done well. Is he lying?May 6, 2021 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #1971698HealthParticipant
Of Jackk, -“Have you ever been responsible for the response to a new virus which is killing millions of people?
The answer to all this is very simple. HE IS TRYING TO SAVE PEOPLE FROM GETTING SICK AND ALSO SAVE THEIR LIVES.
There are 560,000 dead Americans already from this virus , with thousands STILL getting sick from the virus and dying weekly.”
I’m Not going to discuss Masking or Social Distancing, and not even vaccines.
I do believe in Vaccines.
But I take issue with your comment!
I don’t know who is charge of the Government, whether it’s Fauci or the CDC or s/o else.
How could anybody claim that government cares about their Lives, especially when 560,000 are dead?!?
At the beginning, some doctors were pushing Zinc & HCQ, but the government nixed it.
The same thing later on with Invermectin.
It was nixed.
IDK if these drugs work all the time but they are As good as Monoclonal ABs.
These people Don’t care about Lives because these Drugs work a good part of the Time!May 7, 2021 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1971839
@madealiyah The reason that the flu spreads is because people who are showing symptoms of the flu aren’t careful and infect others. If everyone is careful about the flu, no one will die from it. COVID is different, since it much more often can infect others without symptoms. So the level of effort needed to be careful with COVID is much more chamor, hence the masks.
For the upteenth time at what point does “more” make a difference?
The point where it makes a difference, in this context, is where it lowers the infection rate to below one. The flu has an infection rate of about 1.4 mostly because people aren’t careful and do things like interact with others while they have a fever, or send their kids to school when they may not be feeling well and the flu is going around. Taking the same care with COVID as most people do with the flu will give COVID an infection rate of about 3. So again, there is a much higher level of effort needed to stop people from dying from COVID than to stop people from dying from the flu. And that includes wearing masks.
So if you care about people dying from the flu, don’t send your sick kids to their friends house. If you care about people dying from COVID, wear a mask. (This last sentence may not be applicable if most of your community is vaccinated). I do both.
Woe is to me, for I have been found guilty of being inconvenienced by wearing a face diaper, and losing a job!
I’m glad you finally admit it. Your convenience is more important than the lives and health of others.
You do not want to “demand that people should mask to protect others” from the flu,
I think we covered that. Wearing a mask is pointless if you’re doing the minimal needed to protect others from the flu.May 7, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1971842
>MadeAliyah, he said that Israel has done well. Is he lying?<
No. I might disagree with the authoritarian methods they used, but Fauci doesn’t care about pesky stuff like “rights” or “freedom”.
He did say some strange things like “you had a couple of things in your favor… you know what it means to stick together as a single unit” – which is unfortunately not quite true, however I wouldn’t call that ‘lying’ I’d call that ‘talking beyond his area of expertise’.May 9, 2021 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1972067
@yserbius123, I would go for the usual line-by-line response but I think we are getting far to side-tracked. Let me try to sum up our discussion as I see it, so that hopefully you can tell me where I’m wrong and how to get out of this infinite loop of that’s getting us nowhere.
– In Ihttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr I asked you why Covid should not be treated like the flu in regards to masking.
– In the next thirteen posts you failed to effectively answer, eventually saying that you would be ready to admit to not caring about flu deaths and that there is a cheshbon to be made in each case. (Not once did you suggest that “Wearing a mask is pointless if you’re doing the minimal needed to protect others from the flu”)
– At that point I asked you if we could wrap up the thread as we seemed to have come to an agreement. Since you did not answer, I assumed that we were done.
– But we were not done. Apparently you are still outraged that a) I had said “How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?” and b) I am inconvenienced by masking.
– I could address those two issues, but what’s the point? You are trying to discredit my arguments by discrediting me as a person and that’s just wrong. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.
– Now back to the flu. I don’t know where you are getting your numbers from nor do I care. According to your logic the entire world should wear masks even to save one human being. How could they put their inconvenience before protecting others? So the infection rate is irrelevant, if masking for the flu will save at least one person – and I’m sure you’ll agree it will – it’s worth the inconvenience.May 9, 2021 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1972143
MadeAliyah, I think Yserbius is making a point that flu transmission is symptomatic (there is also existing immunity – thus adults being more protected). So, flu transmission wuold go dramatically down were the people/children stay home when visibly sick. Maybe you are right and after this pandemic, there will be more understanding or even shaming of people who contribute to flu pandemics. Or maybe more chumros in natilas yadaim …
We might be in general exposed to a lot of stuff that we are not paying attention to. When my older kids went to school first time for K (in a small school), being solely at home previously, the whole family was continuously sick with multiple symptoms for 6 months from getting the whole load in one shot.May 9, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1972185
Flu is much more susceptible to transmission through touch. Marking is not the same when it is all over your hands, food, tissues, etc.
Last year, corona is like the flu.
This year, flu is like the corona.
Yes, to both. But they are also different.
There are many other viruses and bacteria. Mask more for some. Soap more for others. This is not new medical knowledge. Though this is about personal health. This is not really about epidemiology. Which is the field of specialty for the past year.
And, we could all be extremely careful with the flu and many will did. People walking around others when they are ill, is always inconsiderate. But during epidemics it is an entirely different problem. Like playing with fireworks instead of matches.May 9, 2021 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1972272
>I think Yserbius is making a point that flu transmission is symptomatic<
CDC link removed
“Symptoms can begin about 2 days (but can range from 1 to 4 days) after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those people may still spread the virus to others.“May 9, 2021 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1972277
How do we understand connection between laws of Tumah and transmission?
There are things that do not fit or go beyond, but there are lots of things in halakha that are good for health. Consider number of people coming to Yerushalaim from different places. This is perfect transmission center if no precautions are taken. Maybe things like eating Pesach by family, natilat yadayim, keeping kodesh separated by several degreees, are all pro-health. Maybe even Pesach Sheni is an incentive for people not to cheat and come b’Tumah?May 9, 2021 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1972296
No. It is definitely not a way for understanding taharos. Taharah is dependent on conscious contact. Your health does not depend on what you think about the risks. For conformation of that, see your own posts on masking.May 10, 2021 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1972347
@madealiyah I’m making an addendum to my previous post. There are definitely chesboinos people need to make when it comes to saving lives. An extreme example I just heard today was “Should a hospital bankrupt itself to save the life of one child?”. When it comes to the flu, the cheshbon isn’t so difficult since so few people die from the flue. When it comes to pre-vaccine COVID, it’s actually very likely to kill someone by not wearing a mask. To add to that, the cheshbon needed to protect others from the flu is minimal and doesn’t require much. It’s not that I don’t “care” about people dying from the flu, it’s that the link between me not wearing a mask and people dying from the flu is tenuous at best (as opposed to COVID where there’s a very strong link and correlation between mask wearing and dying).
I am not being unreasonable, nor taking your words out of context. You have made it absolutely clear on multiple occasions that your convenience is more important than keeping other people safe in some sort of bizarre perversion of “Im ein ani li mi li?” I can sit hear quoting your comments all day, but I think this one:
@MadeAliya: How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?
really drives the point home.May 10, 2021 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1972359
Ys, maybe people respect medicine. When a doctor tells a person to keep a diet or have medicine, compliance is high. But somehow math doesn’t get same respect. So individuals make quick computation about invisible danger based on an article headline and can’t imagine what else is there. R Twersky said that one needs to learn physiology to appreciate miracles of Hashem,
I would add statistics to that. After all, a miracle is a low probability event, so to appreciate them, one needs at least one graduate course on order statisticsMay 10, 2021 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1972360
N0, I am not calling to 19th century idea that Torah can be reduced to health regulations, but that a haver holding by taharah will likely avoid a lot of unhealthy contact. Halakha takes medical facts into consideration: we feed cohen godol before yk so that he reduces bathroom trips…May 10, 2021 8:50 am at 8:50 am #1972393ParticipantParticipant
I seriously just listened to some pro vaccine propaganda and legit there are people doubting the vaccine because Biden still wears a mask.
I sure am glad Biden is there to be our role model at this critical juncture.May 10, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1972449
It’s not that I don’t “care” about people dying from the flu, it’s that the link between me not wearing a mask and people dying from the flu is tenuous at best (as opposed to COVID where there’s a very strong link and correlation between mask wearing and dying).
According to the CDC: a) flu can be transmitted before symptoms appear and b) masks can prevent transmission of the flu.
I would ask you once more to explain why masks should not be required for the flu in order to save even one life, but only a fool tries the same thing twice expecting different results.
I am not being unreasonable, nor taking your words out of context.
And I am a flamingo.
You have made it absolutely clear on multiple occasions that your convenience is more important than keeping other people safe in some sort of bizarre perversion of “Im ein ani li mi li?” I can sit hear quoting your comments all day, but I think this one:
@MADEALIYA: HOW CAN ANYBODY DEMAND THAT PEOPLE SHOULD WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS?
really drives the point home.
Do you even realise what you are saying? I spent pages explaining why nobody can demand that others should wear a mask and instead of refuting my points, you decide that I shouldn’t be listened to because I said that nobody can demand that others should wear a mask. This catch-22 is your way of avoiding the question. But two can play at this game:
How about we don’t listen to you demanding that we mask because you are demanding that we mask?
@yserbius123, we can go in circles forever and we probably will if I don’t give up.
If you are interested in having a discussion, I’m all ears.
If you just want to force masks on all faces and spew some name-calling, fallacies and lies on the way, I’m out.
So far you seem to only want the latter, so thanks for your time and I wish you all the best.May 10, 2021 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1972550
Dear Made Aliyah,
When there is a flu epidemic people should avoid contact, use soap, and wear marks. In that order. Flu is not present in high levels right now. At the moment Coronavirus is at manageable levels. The medical need for wearing a mark is low. Just wear it where it is required by law.May 10, 2021 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1972556
Halachah considers all facts. That is almost an empirical statement.
Regarding the current pandemic, the chaver will be better off just by not mingling with all the unmasked amei ha’aretz.May 10, 2021 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1972559
N0, I am not calling to 19th century idea that Torah can be reduced to health regulations
Glad to hear that, because it certainly seemed that you were.May 10, 2021 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1972613
It’s not that I don’t “care” about people dying from the flu, it’s that the link between me not wearing a mask and people dying from the flu is tenuous at best
So you’re also pro death. Just less than us.May 10, 2021 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1972695
@madealiyah We can sit down and have an honest discussion right now, if you want. You admit that wearing a mask will protect other people from COVID-19, yet you refuse to wear a mask because it’s a minor inconvenience. That’s your position in a nutshell. Please defend that position without veering into tangents and attacking me.May 10, 2021 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1972698
@daas-yochid Let me explain this in the same mature and level-headed manner in which you responded to most of my comments.
LIAR! I NEVER SAID THAT! WHY DO YOU ALWAYS LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING?!May 10, 2021 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1972724
Do you deny that every year people die of the flu and that if everyone wore masks there were would be fewer deaths from flu?May 10, 2021 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1972757
“LIAR! I NEVER SAID THAT!”
Uh, it’s a quote.May 10, 2021 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1972779
Mishna uses language “ein ledavar sof” – at some point, you can’t worry about secondary and tertiary effects. So, when you compare COVID and flu, you should come up with some numbers and degrees of separation and maybe you can then see differences.May 10, 2021 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1972780
n0: Regarding the current pandemic, the chaver will be better off just by not mingling with all the unmasked amei ha’aretz.
yes, I think so too. It is just feels very uncomfortable in our times to consider a swath of Torah-observant Jewry to be in a such category. We are all feel close together being beseeched by outside forces and internal challenge from Reform, socialists, etc so that the classical idea of am haaertz sounds foreign. I think Gemora has dual feelings towards Am.H – we can rely on them doing certain things, we remedy demai, not fully reject it, the person who ate at R Yannai …May 10, 2021 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1972800
Based on the comments about these orthodox jews (over the months calling kollel people voluntarily unemployed, calling teachers people wo dont know enough to get a job etc) i would doubt you were going to be mixing much anyway.
The saddest takeaway is how unable you are to accept the existance of truth beyond your opinion, including actual Torah opinions not neatly fitting your scienced based nearsightedness. Smart people get stunted by self appeasement. Take a chance and let go of the reigns.May 11, 2021 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1972851
There is nothing uncomfortable about it. It has always been this way. And for the last thousand years, there has been almost no public example of a true chaver.May 11, 2021 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1972889
@yserbius123, let me clear a few misunderstandings:
1. You admit that wearing a mask will protect other people from COVID-19, yet you refuse to wear a mask because it’s a minor inconvenience. That’s your position in a nutshell.
That is absolutely not my position.
The reason I brought up the flu analogy is to prove that people cannot be forced in all instances to take actions against their will to protect others. As terrible as it may sound, this rule is necessary for a functioning society.
So why did I complain about how uncomfortable masks are, before I asked the flu question?
Let me provide you with some context:
In https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1925736/watch-biden-says-he-wants-nation-to-wear-masks-for-100-days.html someone claimed that “All chareidim in EY seem to manage masks”, a comment that made me make a YWN account, correct this nonsense and write a few posts in the CR about how uncomfortable masks are. I then left the thread only to come back later for an attempt to explain the anti-mandatory-masking position in a more fact-based way. I never used inconvenience as an argument since.
(I did point out that inconvenience is a matter of opinion, but only because you kept insisting that it’s not. I did not use that as argument.)
2.Please defend that position
That’s not how it works.
I am not asking you for anything. You can wear a mask, wear two masks or wear none at all, I honestly don’t care.
You however, are telling me to mask, therefore the burden of proof is on you.
Ah, but this is case of saving lives you say? I have shown you that that is not always a valid argument, especially not in the case of masking.
Now the burden of proof is yours again.
I’m all ears.May 11, 2021 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1973037
How different is inconvenience from not managing?May 11, 2021 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1973049
@MadeAliya The proof is the CDC, the Misrad Habriyut, my local doctor, all the doctors I’ve spoken with, my Rov, my local Va’ad HaRabbonim, and about a thousand published papers all saying that wearing a mask should not be a choice as it saves lives. Not necessarily the lives of people wearing the mask, but people they are around.
Now, with that in mind, can you please defend your position that wearing a mask is a personal choice and if it makes you uncomfortable you can just not wear it?
@syag-lchochma I never said I am pro-death! Stop LYING!!!!!
Do you deny that every year people die of the flu and that if everyone wore masks there were would be fewer deaths from flu?
In a word, yes. I explained my position in earlier comments, I’m not going to repeat myself.May 11, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1973083
In a word, yes
Then you are either lying or ignorant.May 11, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1973084
Based on your track record, I would say lying, so I’ll stick with my assertion that you are pro death.May 11, 2021 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1973088
@syag-lchochma I never said I am pro-death! Stop LYING!!!!!
Nobody ever said you said you are pro death. I am saying you are pro death.May 11, 2021 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1973090
Syag, I am very pro-mix, the only group I am not fond of are those who insist that their group is always right. And First A in AAQ stands for always, regardless whether I favor that opinion or not. I probably sound harsher hear as I am mostly discuss hard topics that bother me and I am interested in your opinions.
There is no insult to call people who learn volunteerly unemployed. Decrease in business is one of the qualities for learning Torah. The question is can they take OPM to do that. Many sources look down at it. Feel free to bring opposite ones
When I speak about unworthy Torah teachers, it’s because I value the profession and don’t talk about those who are honest and capable. If I meet an inept lawyer or a professor, I just don’t work with them, but Torah teacher is more important and problem needs to be addressedMay 11, 2021 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1973101
>Now, with that in mind, can you please defend your position that wearing a mask is a personal choice and if it makes you uncomfortable you can just not wear it?<
I don’t need to defend my position any more than you need to defend your position when I demand that you must eat spinach every morning for breakfast. You want me to mask against my will, you need to provide a solid reason.
The CDC and the Misrad Habriyut are overstretching their authority in ways that should frighten anyone who cares about democracy and freedom.
Your local doctor and all the doctors you’ve spoken with can provide you with the data and their advice, but do not and should not have the power to force you to do anything. If they did, you would be eating spinach every morning for breakfast.
Your Rav and your local Va’ad HaRabbonim should be listened to, by you.
(A thousand published papers is a lot indeed. If you read a thousand published papers, who am I to argue with you?)
And now @yserbius123, the burden of proof is with you. Please go ahead… 🎤May 11, 2021 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1973138
Dear Made Aliyah,
The CDC has no authority to force and enforce anything. Nor are they trying. Pre-covid, they were the best information on public health. Who is trying to frighten you about freedom and democracy? That seems to be the real danger. And they convinced you to completely parrot their line, without you realizing that your free thinking has been played.May 11, 2021 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1973158
“the only group I am not fond of are those who insist that their group is always right”
Well that’s an odd thing to say considering you have been the forerunner in that department.May 11, 2021 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1973157
Yserbius- i never said i was either, but that didn’t stop you from saying i claimed to be so. So back atcha buddyMay 11, 2021 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1973214
>The CDC has no authority to force and enforce anything. Nor are they trying. Pre-covid, they were the best information on public health.<
I was talking about the Misrad Habriyut and I only mentioned the CDC because I was responding to someone.
So I stand corrected.
>Who is trying to frighten you about freedom and democracy? That seems to be the real danger. And they convinced you to completely parrot their line, without you realizing that your free thinking has been played.<
The Washington Post. They have been telling me that democracy dies in darkness. I didn’t realize what a danger they are until you opened my eyes. Thank you.
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