May 11, 2021 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1973273
Research on flu a- and pre-symptomatic transmission seems to say that it is not a large part of transmission (10% of cases are asymptomatic, and they shed less and less days). See references inside ref (1). Of course, if we were to decrease symptomatic cases by SD, then remaining flu threat will be largely asymptomatic…
Time from infection to symptoms is 1 to 4 days for flu and 2 to 14 days for COVID, so pre-symptomatic periods differs also.
R0 before public health measures for flue is between 1 and 2, for COVID 2 to 3 or even more
(1) Patrozou, E., & Mermel, L. A. (2009). Does influenza transmission occur from asymptomatic infection or prior to symptom onset?. Public health reports (Washington, D.C. : 1974), 124(2), 193–196.
link removed (surprise)May 12, 2021 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1973458
@MadeAliyah With that sort of logic you can apply it to the police stopping people from speeding. What right do they have to prevent you from exercising your democratic right to drive as fast as you want?May 12, 2021 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1973851Reb EliezerParticipant
You don’t have a right to endanger others as you cannot scream fire in a crowded theater, so you have a responsibility to listen to the CDC to protect others.May 12, 2021 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1973938
AAQ >> “the only group I am not fond of are those who insist that their group is always right”
syag> Well that’s an odd thing to say considering you have been the forerunner in that department.
excellent hit! I do not have a group, though. You may feel that I belong to some group that you do not like, because I question your position. I question their position also.
I listened on the radio with kids Obama-Romney debate and discussed it afterwards, and they had no idea whom I am going to be voting for. Vote me as the moderator of the next Biden-Trump debate.May 15, 2021 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1974570
>@MadeAliyah With that sort of logic you can apply it to the police stopping people from speeding. What right do they have to prevent you from exercising your democratic right to drive as fast as you want?<
But with your sort of logic the speed limit should be as low as is needed to ensure that no fatal accidents happen at all.
So comparing masking to speed limits is a problem for both of us.
But only one of us has the burden of proof…May 19, 2021 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1975335
@MadeAliyah We’ve already been through this. The speed limit should be low enough that the only way to cause loss of life is by sheer recklessness or extremely unlikely situations which no amount of laws (except those saying no leaving the home no matter what) can prevent. Getting rid of the speed limit because of “personal rights” would cause a massive increase in hospitalizations and deaths.
And no, the burden of proof is still on you since pretty much everyone who is knowledgeable about the subject says that wearing masks saved lives when COVID is rampant and people are unvaccinated. I can’t post links on YWN, but you can check the CDC or Misrad HaBriyut website yourself for proof.
So nu? Why didn’t you wear a mask before you were vaccinated (assuming you were vaccinated)? After all, the evidence and proof does say that it protects people?May 19, 2021 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1975361
>@MadeAliyah We’ve already been through this<
We have indeed been through this and you still have not shown me why you totally lose it over Covid deaths yet you would yawn and continue when you hear of deaths not caused by Covid.
>The speed limit should be low enough that the only way to cause loss of life is by sheer recklessness or extremely unlikely situations which no amount of laws (except those saying no leaving the home no matter what) can prevent.<
Nothing to comment on this – unless you think people care more about dying from “sheer recklessness or extremely unlikely situations” than the good ol’ flu…
>And no, the burden of proof is still on you<
I don’t think you understand how the burden of proof works. My position is the default position. What do I mean by that? If we had never had this discussion, we each would have made our own choices – which is my position. Yet you want to change the status-quo, so please tell me why we should do so. If you fail, the default position remains.
> pretty much everyone who is knowledgeable about the subject says that wearing masks saved lives when COVID is rampant and people are unvaccinated. I can’t post links on YWN, but you can check the CDC or Misrad HaBriyut website yourself for proof.<
(You know exactly what I mean…)
>So nu? Why didn’t you wear a mask before you were vaccinated<
For the most part I did mask. (I live in Israel in case you forgot)
Okay @yserbius123, let’s agree that this is getting out of hand. You’ve spent way to much time attempting to prove your point and you’re no closer than when you started.
How much longer do you need to present your case?
When does it end?May 19, 2021 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1975363
Okay so I was right in the OP.
Even according the CDC the vaccinated don’t need to mask and Fauci was just making up excuses.May 20, 2021 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1975701
@MadeAliyah The “default position” flew out the window when there was something called a “global pandemic” and “millions literally dying”. At that point the “default position” became “whatever experts said that would help mitigate the situation”. The experts were near-unanimously saying that if most people wear masks, the deaths would drop significantly. So to contradict that, you would need a very VERY good reason.
You keep getting back to the flu and I keep having to explain myself again. I actually did a lot of thinking back when your first made your comparison and looked up some details and statistics. You’re right, there’s no good number for “acceptable losses”. Especially when something as simple as wearing a mask can prevent it.
But, and I repeat myself, according to the experts, (unless there’s a flu epidemic going around) wearing a mask is just overkill. You can prevent people from dying from the flu by just using some seichel. Like don’t go to the supermarket when you’re running a fever. Or don’t bring your sniffling sneezing kids to visit Saba at the nursing home.
So we’re getting back to our speed limit analogy. Experts have determined safe speeds on the streets. That will not prevent all vehicle deaths, because bad mazal will still happen. Changing the speed limit to 5 KPH (nimshol: wearing masks for the flu) everywhere won’t stop people from ramming their bikes into buses, or falling under a car wheel. So we have safe speed limits and I think we are both in agreement that those are there for a reason and it’s a darned good one. But then we get to your logic of “personal liberties” (a concept completely foreign to Yiddishkeit) which sounds like taking Libertarianism to the extreme (Randism?). The concept of a society that cannot prevent people from doing things that is a danger to others is just broken and wrong. So Israel, the US, and almost every non-Somalian country in the world saying that people have to drive the speed limit (nimshol: wear masks during the worst pandemic in a century) is the right thing to do.
What I don’t get is this. Rabbonim and Rebbetzins have been standing up in front of their kehal for generations and telling people how to dress. Especially women. Often that way of dress is extremely difficult and uncomfortable. So why when it came to telling kehillos to wear masks did a lot of people balk and say “You can’t tell me what to do!”.May 20, 2021 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1975737
>> Even according the CDC the vaccinated don’t need to mask and Fauci was just making up excuses.
This is a new twist on “even a broken clock is right twice a day” – wait long enough and, sure, the masks will not be needed and an am haaretz would retroactively become a hasid.
Note that the position “vaccinated do not need mask” depends on prevalence of virus in population. when it is higher, vaccinated do need masks, when it is lower, they may not. Exact boundary may be a machloket, of course.May 20, 2021 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1975743☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
wait long enough and, sure, the masks will not be needed
They were never needed for the vaccinated.May 20, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1975787
I read through a bunch of his old posts including his first one, and I did not find that Made Aliyah ever made a specific case against wearing or legislating the need for masks. So he just does not have to like them. There is nothing to argue over. Except all the tangents that are being brought in to defend the lines in the sand.May 20, 2021 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1975795
DY >wait long enough and, sure, the masks will not be needed
> They were never needed for the vaccinated.
As far as we understand now (and with less understanding before) – vaccine reduces risks by a factor of 10 to 20. If you are in an area with high prevalence of COVID and you do not take other measures esp. prolonged contact without ventilation, your risk is high, and mask and SD would help. So, do not plan a visit to Indian ashram just yet.
As I mentioned above, it seems that antibody tests will soon be used to indicate whether you have even higher (or lower) level of vaccine protection, i.e. instead of having 200 mln people with 95% protection, we will be divided into 180 mln with 99+% and 20 mln with maybe 50% protection.May 21, 2021 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1975928
@yserbius123, the Default Position cannot fly out of windows, is not intimidated by words like “global pandemic” and “millions literally dying” and does not evaporate as soon as “experts” command it to do so. It is just a default position.
If all you want to tell me is that masking slows the spread, it’s okay, I got it, I never disagreed with you on that.
We disagree on whether that would require me to mask. As I have shown repeatedly the need to save lives does not always require me to take action, as evil and selfish as that may sound.
As for the flu, please stop spreading deadly misinformation. The flu can be transmitted even without symptoms, therefore we should mask forever, never bring children to meet their grandparents and leave the house only when absolutely necessary. Do you want the death of another human being on your hands!?
In Halacha your argument is even weaker. The only basis on which to rely masking is Lo Sirtzach. Yet here the flu problem is stronger since you cannot make up a point in which the numbers justify unmasking – as you have done multiple times. Here you must bring halachic source which explicitly states the amount of lives that you are allowed to kill with your “barefaceness” and la’anius da’ati there is none.
I ask you again: How many more posts do you need to prove your position?May 21, 2021 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1975921
>I read through a bunch of his old posts including his first one, and I did not find that Made Aliyah ever made a specific case against wearing or legislating the need for masks.<
The argument began in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr.
The thread is five pages long.
Good luck.May 21, 2021 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1975962
@MadeAliyah You literally addressed none of my comment. Why are speed limits not attacking your personal liberties? Why should masks have not be required? You just keep harping on this flu narischkeit, pretending that it’s as dangerous and infectious as COVID like it’s some sort of massive shtuch on the whole masking requirement. While you admit that masks saved lives, you still are dismissive of it and claim that it shouldn’t be required because of “personal liberties”. You can’t just ignore the pandemic, it actually happened and masks really worked to slow it down. What is “default position” anyway? Some dream where people can do whatever they want? Like drive over the speed limit?
the need to save lives does not always require me to take action
So let me get this straight. You admit that masks directly saved lives, perhaps even many lives. You admit that you wore a mask when required and it wasn’t that big of a deal. And that far less people would have died had everyone listened to the governments when they were requiring masks. And yet you still think that some nonsense called your “personal liberties” takes precedence? Where are your “personal liberties” when the Shiltoin HaKoifrim demands you pay taxes? Or those chauvanist Rabbis insist that women wear long sleeves in the summer?May 24, 2021 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1976690
Dear Made Aliya,
I found it, thanks! I apologize to you. I see you made it into a clear cut question. Namely, can a person be forced to wear a mask against his/her will in order to save lives. The answer is yes. But only when there is a compelling reason. The difference why there was mandatory mask mandates last year and there hopefully will not be any mandates next year, was the epidemic nature of the virus. Normally, the body has so many defenses against viruses and bacteria that the enhanced protections do little to prevent infection. Thus there is no compelling reason to always mandate masks.
However, there are many compelling instances to require masks. During an invasive surgery the skin is open. That negates the body’s best defense against infection. Cancer patients are susceptible to infection and have suppressed immunity. Food preparation in certain conditions require extreme precautions. People living in remote areas without access to proper health care. Sick patients in close quarters. Labs handling live samples. And epidemic diseases that are growing out of control.May 24, 2021 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1976960
@n0mesorah The sevara that @MadeAliyah is using is that you can’t force people to do things that have a chance of saving someone’s life because almost everything we do has a potential to harm another person. I disagree with his logic because not wearing masks presents a clear and present danger, like speeding in a residential zone.May 24, 2021 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1976988
Not wearing marks does not pose any danger. I have not worn a mask many times, and was not ever in danger from not having a mask. It is a health measure. Unhealthy does not equal dangerous. But I would not classify speeding in a residential zone as clear and present danger either. So maybe you mean something, but are not explaining it well.
Not masking in the face of an epidemic disease is also not a danger. It is merely not invoking another tool to control the spread. In some instances, masking is irrelevant to how the disease spreads. [HIV] In others, masks are insufficient. [marburg]
On the original question, it depends who is doing the forcing. Online posters cannot force any issue. Yet we keep on trying. Governments in the Far East can force a whole lot. In the western world, it’s a bit murky. Generally, the executive branch gets to make the call in times of crisis.May 24, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1977044
@n0mesorah By not wearing a mask during a pandemic you put others in danger since you could be contagious and spreading disease without your knowledge. That’s what the health departments have been saying since May 2020. Similarly, by speeding in a residential zone, you are putting others in danger as no one is crossing the street expecting someone to be doing 80 around the corner.May 24, 2021 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1977072
I am not putting other people’s health at risk as nobody is around me.
Which health departments?
Thirty MPH is speeding in a residential zone.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but your stance has been repeatedly questioned. Now I wonder if you have a real position on the matter.May 24, 2021 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1977073
> Unhealthy does not equal dangerous.
Webster is your friend: unhealthy=harmful to health. dangerous=likely to cause harm.
If you are trying to distinguish between harm to yourself and others, it is probab ly not correct and also this may be a libertarian thing, but not a halakhic one.
BTW, we already saw Kiddush Hashem by Israeli government when they were first to vaccinate – not only buying the vaccine but doing it faster than others. Now, with many US states already rescinding indoors mask mandates due to population pressures, Israel will do it in 2 weeks from now. To appreciate how Israel valued human lives with this decision – Their case rate is 20x lower than US and was at that low level for 3 weeks already. Not sure whether this is due to the fact that a large subset of population is resilient with all other threats around, or just the politicians did not buck to pressure.May 25, 2021 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1977198
@n0mesorah I think a better question would be which health department did not insist on masks. The US national DOH and all fifty states mandated masks as did the Misrad HaBriyut in Israel. If you’re going to say that you don’t need to wear a mask when around other people during a pandemic, you have to have some form of massive amounts of documentation to defend your position.
My point about the speeding moshol was to counter the idea that the government cannot mandate something against “personal liberties” (a concept I have issue with within itself). The government can and does mandate things like that all the time, especially when your expression of your “personal liberties” puts others at risk.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but your stance has been repeatedly questioned. Now I wonder if you have a real position on the matter.
By whom? Three or four members of the CR? A couple nutters on YouTube? Some retired holistic medicine doctor dredged up from the depths of wherever? Like I’ve said before, the overwhelming vast majority of people who know what they are talking about have said that during a COVID-19 pandemic in an unvaccinated population, masks must be worn when around other people.May 26, 2021 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1977705
>@MadeAliyah You literally addressed none of my comment. — So sorry. To compensate I’ll do a line-by-line responce
>Why are speed limits not attacking your personal liberties? — I never mentioned “personal liberties”. The problem isn’t my personal liberties, the problem is your power grab.
In regards to speed limits, as I said it’s your problem too. You should be fighting for lower speed limits, after all, you wouldn’t want anybody to die because of innconveniences, right?
>Why should masks have not be required? — Why should they be? (The burden of proof is yours)
>You just keep harping on this flu narischkeit, — It’s only “narishkeit” because you have no answer.
>pretending that it’s as dangerous and infectious as COVID — I never did. Please stop putting words into my mouth, it’s getting annoying.
>like it’s some sort of massive shtuch on the whole masking requirement. — It is.
>While you admit that masks saved lives, you still are dismissive of it and claim that it shouldn’t be required — ✔️
>because of “personal liberties”. — ✖️
>You can’t just ignore the pandemic, it actually happened and masks really worked to slow it down. — K.
>What is “default position” anyway? — I’ve explained it enough.
>Some dream where people can do whatever they want? Like drive over the speed limit? — ✖️
>So let me get this straight. You admit that masks directly saved lives, — ✔️
>perhaps even many lives. — Define “many”.
>You admit that you wore a mask when required — ✔️
>and it wasn’t that big of a deal. — ✖️
>And that far less people would have died had everyone listened to the governments when they were requiring masks. — Define “far less”.
>And yet you still think that some nonsense called your “personal liberties” takes precedence? — Again with the “personal liberties”?
>Where are your “personal liberties” when the Shiltoin HaKoifrim demands you pay taxes? — You got me there, let’s get rid of taxes too.
>Or those chauvanist Rabbis insist that women wear long sleeves in the summer? — Tznius is Halacha. Masking isn’t.May 26, 2021 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1977758
I do not recall saying anything against wearing marks during a pandemic.
All Health Departments were for it. There is still a large degree personal autonomy.
I suspect that you have no position on how to go about wearing masks. You only question others who try to advance some sense into the discussion. I looked through a lot of posts, and I found nothing from your end.May 26, 2021 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1977762
Dear Made Aliyah,
That some or all Rabbis say something makes it no more and no less halachah the what some or all Doctors saying something ismakes it a medical necessity.
But I already told you the legal workings behind a mark mandate.May 27, 2021 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1978037
@MadeAliyah That’s a lot of words for addresses nothing about my main point. You keep trying to derail the topic by pretending that my concern about COVID is hypocritical because I’m not equally concerned about the flu, when I’ve already made myself clear that the two are not comparable.
You keep repeating “the burden of proof is on you” over and over again like it’s some massive shtuch and completely ignoring the fact that the proof is out there in what the CDC and Misrad HaBriyut have been saying. So the burden has shifted to you to prove them wrong.
Your main issue is that you don’t feel like the government (or my “power grab” whatever that means) has a right to mandate that you wear a mask, even if it does a lot to protect people. You have yet to address what, exactly, is the issue here since the government mandates things like that all the time, such as speed limits.May 27, 2021 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1978059
>>@MadeAliyah That’s a lot of words for addresses nothing about my main point. — Your main point is that masks save lives and I have addressed that too many times.
>>You keep trying to derail the topic by pretending that my concern about COVID is hypocritical because I’m not equally concerned about the flu — It is hypocritical.
>>when I’ve already made myself clear that the two are not comparable. — No you haven’t. You also seem to think that speed limits are comparable but the flu isn’t. 🧐🤨🤔
>>You keep repeating “the burden of proof is on you” over and over again like it’s some massive shtuch — Not a shtuch just reality.
>>and completely ignoring the fact that the proof is out there in what the CDC and Misrad HaBriyut have been saying. — What have they been saying?
That masks slow the spread? I didn’t disagree with you on that.
That they should govern my face? Nope, don’t agree.
>>Your main issue is that you don’t feel like the government (or my “power grab” whatever that means) — Clarification: when I say “you” I mean whoever is demanding that I mask so in this context it’s the government. (I suppose you know what a government power grab is…)
>>has a right to mandate that you wear a mask, even if it does a lot to protect people. You have yet to address what, exactly, is the issue here since the government mandates things like that all the time, such as speed limits. — True, but we all agree that there should be limits to the government’s control. Masking is one of those as evident in the flu issue and speed limits are not. Why the difference? Good question, but it’s a question for both of us, so why don’t you help me out?May 27, 2021 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1978188
@MadeAliyah There should be limits to government control but the government also has a right to excessive control when there is a clear and present danger. The COVID-19 pandemic was a case of clear and present danger. Speeding is a case of clear and present danger. The regular flu season is not. Driving 25 down a residential street is not. Simple as that.May 27, 2021 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1978202
@MadeAliyah And yet you still haven’t addressed why you are OK with the government mandating how fast you can drive. Why is that any different from you claims of “govern my face”, “civil liberties”, and “power grab”? It’s something you are personally doing that the government is preventing!May 27, 2021 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1978251
>@MadeAliyah There should be limits to government control but the government also has a right to excessive control when there is a clear and present danger. The COVID-19 pandemic was a case of clear and present danger. Speeding is a case of clear and present danger. The regular flu season is not. Driving 25 down a residential street is not. Simple as that.<
Define “clear and present danger”.
The only definition I can see in this context is “The things that I want to use in order to control your life”.
>@MadeAliyah And yet you still haven’t addressed why you are OK with the government mandating how fast you can drive.<
You still haven’t addressed why you are OK with the government allowing me to drive at dangerous speeds.
Oh, and you also still have the burden of proof.
> Why is that any different from you claims of “govern my face”,<
Because I don’t drive with my face.
> “civil liberties”<
Again, I never said that.
Also, how dare you call for a death penalty for the maskless!!!! DO YOU HAVE NO SHAME??????!!!!!!!!
> and “power grab”? It’s something you are personally doing that the government is preventing!<
But I highly suspect that you only want me to answer so that we can get sidetracked over the answer and ignore the fact that this is a scenario that is problematic for both of us in an argument in which you have the burden of proof.
Nice try though.May 28, 2021 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1978339
Speed limits are not put into effect because of clear and present danger. There is arbitrary element to them. In fact, there are places with no maximum speed limit. It’s just the way it is. When rules are made, the creators care of some ideas and arbitrate the rest. Going 57 mph is on different the 55.
Coronavirus, flu, Ebola, HIV, are not the reasons for mandatory health measures. Wide spread disease is. The word is ‘epidemic’.May 28, 2021 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1978459
@MadeAliyah I asked first. I gave you answers to all of your questions, and repeated several of them. I’m not answering again until you answer these two:
- Why are speed limits different than mandatory masking?
- Why are the near-unanimous expert opinions of epidemiologists and doctors not enough proof that you should wear a mask during a global pandemic?
@n0mesorah Yeah yeah, you can nitpick the differences, but the moshol still works. The government has a right to tell you that you can’t do 80mph down a one-lane residential side-street.May 30, 2021 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1978977BY1212Participant
It’s been a year since I’ve looked at the coffee room. And the coffee being served is still shtiebel coffee.
Maybe one day you’ll love up to Red Mug or Barzilai.
made Aliya Always and syag. Valiant efforts. I couldn’t put up with the narishkeit that these leitzim keep vomiting. At some point you say genug shoin, like Moshe Rabbeinu in last week’s parsha. How indeed does one deal with complete kshe orefkeit and general imbecility? honestly I do not know .
But I guess someone has too otherwise there is only the shekker voice being heard.
So thank you for doing this thankless job.
Remember: Yosef haTzaddik, Moshe Rabbeinu Dovid haMelech were all extremely unpopular during their lifetimes. So we’re the Neviim. Yeshaya was even killed. And I’m sure menashe had nomesora arguments justifying his actions.
So don’t feel bad just bc you can’t win. You are in good company.May 31, 2021 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1979203
“The Government has a right to tell you that you can’t do 80 mph down a one lane residential side street.”
That line really muddles everything.
The government does not say do not drive recklessly. Bedfore driving was regulated, safety was being said. It does not take legal recognition to state common sense advice.
However, the government can arrest you for reckless driving. As well as fines, community service, impound you car, press charges in court, and send you to jail. The difference between the government and the people, is the deterrent and the consequences.
So, if masks make sense without the government mandating it, then we can have a discussion about how the government could enforce it. Now the question is, in your opinion how should we go about wearing masks in this current pandemic?
I give up on asking you why we should wear masks.May 31, 2021 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1979204
Hi! It is touching that you come back a year later just to give a personal message of chizzuk.June 1, 2021 7:47 am at 7:47 am #1979255philosopherParticipant
No one needs to defend their breathing normally without being muzzled. Baruch Hashem in our community we understood that after the pandemic raging in March, April, may, June and perhaps July as well, I can’t remember exactly, of 2020, there was no further need of wearing masks. Everyone is always in danger of contracting and spreading viruses but we don’t control the world and it’s stupid to wear masks indefinitely at this point. Hashem controls the world, not us.June 1, 2021 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1979268
>I gave you answers to all of your questions<
No you didn’t.
You did not explain why the speed limit should not be lower.
You twice made up differences between Covid and the flu.
You used the meaningless phrase “clear and present danger”.
You made false claims about the flu.
But you never gave a satisfactory answer.
And now you’re trying to threaten me with “I’m not answering again until you answer these two”?
Do you think I need this conversation to continue?
Remember, if we don’t come to a consensus, my position – as the default position – wins.
Ah, but why should we part on such hostile terms? How can we forget all the uh.. good times we’ve had?
So in the spirit of me being a weak pushover, I’ll grant you the answers you so desire:
- Speed limits fall under the category of “Misuse of public property”
- First of all, it’s extremely ironic that you’re asking this question in the very thread in which I expose an “expert opinion” and am found to be right, but I digress.
Suppose we accept those “expert opinions” to be legit, you are still making a severe fallacy when you use science as ethics.
When science shows that masks slow the spread, it means that masks slow the spread. Period. No more and no less. The next question is: Should we be required to wear masks? That question is an ethical one, and no “expert medical opinion” has more authority on it than me and you.
So please keep them out.
Now that I gave you answers to all of your questions, and repeated several of them. I’m not answering again until you answer these two:
June 1, 2021 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1979382
- Why should speed limits not be as low as possible in order to reduce deaths?
- Why are the near-unanimous expert opinions of epidemiologists and doctors that children should mask despite the fact that the flu is deadlier for them than covid not enough proof that those guys are just ruthless dictators?
@n0mesorah If I understand your comment correctly (and please excuse me if I don’t, I’m feeling stupider than usual today) you’re saying that the government has no need to regulate safety for things that are common sense? I pashut don’t get that reasoning. Governments regulates common sense safety measures all the time to stop people who don’t use common sense.June 1, 2021 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #1979410
- You are wrong about speed limits and “misuse of public property”. They are to prevent deaths and injuries. Just like masks are to prevent deaths and hospitalizations
- Ethically the correct thing to do would be to slow the spread. No matter which way you cut it, millions of deaths worldwide could have been prevented by wearing a mask. So yes, masks should have been required. Your disagreement because “government mandating my body grrr!” doesn’t hold a lot of water (or any at all).
Now on to your questions:
June 1, 2021 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1979409
- Speed limits are as low as possible to reduce deaths. It’s unsafe drivers, unsafe vehicles, and unsafe road activity that cause accidents. If people would adhere to road laws, accidents would be severely reduced. Kind of like how COVID would have been severely reduced had people listened to government masking and social distancing laws
- The flu is not deadlier than COVID. We’ve discussed this. The deadliness of COVID isn’t the virus itself, but how fast it transmits. What must be done to prevent flu transmission isn’t enough to prevent COVID transmission. Hence masking.
Yserbius: government has no need to regulate safety for things that are common sense? I pashut don’t get that reasoning.
First, American libertarian thought is that government should not regulate something that only hurts themselves.
2nd, this may depend on how well society follows common sense and level of intrusion required to regulate. Why not, for example, have government sponsored/required physical training as Nazis and Soviets had to ensure that men are ready for the Army? With government-subsidized helathcare, this may become an item.
3rd, carrots and tricks seem to be working in modern society better than sticks. Signing up employees automatically for 401k with an option to switch it off works way better than giving people an option to enroll.
An example where intrusion prevents good regulation in Gemora: when there are several farmers along the river, we let the first one to take as much water as he wants instead of putting an inspector. L’derech shalom. (some could argue opposite: that shalom requires dividing everything equitable )June 2, 2021 8:23 am at 8:23 am #1979661
You understood some parts right. But you are getting stuck on side points. In your words ‘the Government regulates things that are common sense’. That is fine. Now what is the common sense to wearing masks?
To get this conversation moving at progressive rate, you have two choices.
1. The threat of coronavirus in the past year to the wearer and those around him, is significantly more than other viruses. And masks will avert the threat.
2. When there is a public health emergency such as a pandemic, all lines of safety measures should be invoked to slow the disease as much as possible, and to prevent the collapse of societal structures.
These are two completely different common sense arguments. Which one applies to the current situation.June 2, 2021 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1979606BY1212Participant
Happy to oblige. It is known that being a לץ יושב קרנות and עאכו”כ a כסיל and can be depressing and need reinforcement for that עבודה סיזיפית.
So whenever being a לץ is not supplying the goods of התנשאות I’m here to tell you not to give up because
Klal yisroel desperately needs your cynicismJune 2, 2021 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1979719
I appreciate it.
If you can please clarify for me one line. Why would a fool get depressed? The fool always can fool himself out of whatever reality stands in his way. Additionally, nobody can make the fool responsible even for himself.June 2, 2021 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1979791
@n0mesorah You didn’t explain your original comment at all! And your points are absolutely not mutually exclusive.
I think you mistake in reasoning is the same one a lot of your crowd has been making. No one said that masks will “avert the threat” completely. Rather, masks are simply a major part of an equation that also includes social distancing, testing, and handwashing. So to combine your two statements into one that applied to the situation in 2020:
The threat of coronavirus in the past year to the wearer and those around him, is significantly more than other viruses. And masks helped avert the threat. Since it was a pandemic, a public health emergency, all lines of safety measures should be invoked to slow the disease as much as possible, and to prevent the collapse of societal structures. Therefore masks and other health and social distancing mandates were necessary.June 2, 2021 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1979793
But let’s get back to @MadeAliyah’s original post.
Dr. Fauci said that he’s hesitant to tell vaccinated people that they can take off their masks until the data comes in that the vaccine significantly stopped the spread. He had every reason to believe that it would, but just wanted to be 100% sure. That isn’t fearmongering, that’s being careful.June 3, 2021 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1979874
1. You are correct. I did not explain my earlier post.
2. Who is my crowd?
3. To make your argument (If I followed your posts faithfully. You make many, many, points. And I just cannot tell which one is the cause that you are trying to back up with other points.) comprehensible, ‘significantly more than other viruses’ could use some depth. There are a lot of variables involved. A dry statistic would not convince me that a threat is real.
4. You are correct again. Those two lines can be put together. As well as many other theories. But there is only one way to discuss an intrusion on normality. Are mask mandates valid because of personal safety, or public health? Both ideas can be good and even true. But a mandate that is implemented for personal safety will have very different guidelines than one that is implemented for public health. If we try to cover both, we will get neither.
5. You write about the pandemic as if it is in the past.
6. It is the job description of public health officials to make themselves understood. I have no reason to think that anybody on this thread is interested in what Dr. Fauci says. Why would I assume that Made Aliyah made any attempt to understand what was being said?
7. If you bothered to look at his credentials, or even just listened to him speak in the early days of the pandemic, it would be obvious to you that Dr. Fauci is not being cautious, or covering up for the future. He does everything he can not to make assumptions without data.June 3, 2021 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1980085
- Another fallacy. You are using the pro-mask government’s reason to question the anti-mask position.
- Then why is it not ethical to mask for the flu? (Groan all you want, you still have not answered the question.)
Now on to your answers:
June 3, 2021 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1980101
- If the speed limit would be 10mph lives would be saved. This is an undisputable fact. Please dig up your sandwich board and set out to save the world.
- I clearly wrote that for CHILDREN the flu is more fatal than Covid. Did you really misread that or are you being dishonest again?
@n0mesorah It seems that there’s a large and significant portion of the frum oilom that during 2020 were very quick to deride public officials, and ignore restrictions with all sorts of cheshboinois and svarahs while thousands died from COVID. Lifi aniyas da’ati, that’s your crowd.
I have only making one point in this thread. The government has a right to mandate that people wear masks when around others. It’s not difficult and it’s not confusing.
What is “an intrusion on normality”? Last I checked, COVID-19 was a massive intrusion on normality. In 2020 there was no more normal. So being mandated to wear a mask when out in public in order to protect people around you was as normal as you’re going to get.
The pandemic is, unfortunately, still with us. But I am referring to last year when it was far worse and we didn’t have a vaccine. Now, Baruch Hashem, when you have communities where 90% of the klal were vaccinated there isn’t the same danger so it’s a completely different discussion.
This entire thread is about something Dr. Fauci said. Why would I think anyone commenting here would not try to understand what he said? He’s a public official trying his best. Sometimes his best involves acting before there’s data just in case the data shows his assumptions to be wrong.June 3, 2021 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1980105
- Why yes. I did use the governments reasoning to say that mandating masks is correct. Because it makes sense and has evidence and data to back it up. Unlike the anti-mask crowd whose evidence and data consists entirely of throwing a tantrum and shouting “You can’t tell me what to do you’re not my mom!!!!”.
- I never said it’s not ethical to mask for the flu. I said it’s not necessary if basic precautions are being taken.
OK, now on to the next part.
- If everyone followed all the rules of the road, lowering speed limits to 10 miles per hour will not save any lives.
- Children can spread COVID to adults. That’s why they have to mask. Again, for what seems like the millionth time, masking is not to prevent the masked individual from catching COVID but to prevent those around the masked individual from catching COVID
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