Gee thanks, anti-vaxxers

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  • #1156006

    big deal
    Participant

    Mrs. Plony

    There are reputable medical doctors that somewhat oppose giving all the many vaccines. Some say that the vaccines aren’t as sterile as you think and there’s a lot of other junk in there. They recommend only vaccinating against the big sicknesses and the ones your child might have a chance of getting.

    Also, nobody knows how the varicella vaccine will affect kids in the long run. Immunization does not guarantee immunity. As a matter of fact, there are instances where people have the chicken pox after being immunized. There is a danger in pregnant women being exposed to the virus. By preventing a natural strong defense, a vulnerable immunity is created. Regular testing of immunity would be proper

    #1156007

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“Let’s say it’s correct, though.”

    Even so, who says it was caused by the shot? Many kids get fevers after shots. Maybe they are febrile seizures?!?

    #1156008

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I assumed he was referring to the vaccination shots causing fever and the fever causing febrile seizures.

    #1156009

    ABS-SA
    Participant

    Big Deal. Please enlighten us as to who exactly these reputable doctors are and what research they rely on.

    #1156010

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: Once you’re picking and choosing, you’re one of us.

    Sorry, and welcome to the club. Annual dues are payable every Rosh Hashana.

    #1156011

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“I assumed he was referring to the vaccination shots causing fever and the fever causing febrile seizures.”

    So his Lomdus is – there is a small chance that the kid will get seizures, so it’s better not to vaccinate, even though it will most probably prevent the disease?!?

    #1156012

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So his Lomdus is – there is a small chance that the kid will get seizures, so it’s better not to vaccinate, even though it will most probably prevent the disease?!?

    The lomdus is, that I am not confident someone is thinking about that, and specifically thinking about it in relation to MY kid rather than kids as a whole.

    #1156014

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If too many people think about THEIR kids and not think about vaccination of kids as a whole, what happens is what happened in Williamsburg, only with worse diseases than chickenpox.

    #1156015

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If too many people think about THEIR kids and not think about vaccination of kids as a whole, what happens is what happened in Williamsburg, only with worse diseases than chickenpox.

    is that true? You think that that one a person by person basis it doesn’t make sense to vaccinate for other horrible diseases?

    You’re not just a member of the club; you’re on the board.

    #1156016

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    it doesn’t make sense

    #1156017

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“The lomdus is, that I am not confident someone is thinking about that, and specifically thinking about it in relation to MY kid rather than kids as a whole.”

    You sound like a health – nut! The whole idea of us medical professionals, is that we treat patients individually. If it’s not good for that individual, we won’t do it or we’ll do something else.

    #1156018

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You sound like a health – nut! The whole idea of us medical professionals, is that we treat patients individually. If it’s not good for that individual, we won’t do it or we’ll do something else.

    Right, that is what your job is supposed to be, and what nobody believes you do anymore.

    #1156019

    big deal
    Participant

    ABS :

    The onus is on big pharma to make me feel comfortable enough with their sterility and the safety of each vaccine. My job is to protect myself and dependents as best I can with the information available to me.

    I’m not disputing the benefits we get from vaccinating in general. I’m protesting the overuse of it. That should be something, I, as an individual should have a right to decide.

    #1156020

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    If more physicians responded to their patients with patience, flexibility, compassion, and information rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering, then the so-called “anti-vax” movement would hardly be the problem it is today.

    #1156021

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“Right, that is what your job is supposed to be,”

    Granted there are some incompetent practitioners, but most are very competent. This includes the Frum ones!

    “and what nobody believes you do anymore.”

    Who doesn’t believe us? There might be some, but most believe in normative medicine. The proof is – there is a shortage of medical practitioners!

    #1156022

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“If more physicians responded to their patients with patience, flexibility, compassion, and information rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering,”

    I just got a good laugh. Most of the practitioners that I know aren’t like your portrayal! If yours’ is, how about going elsewhere?

    “then the so-called “anti-vax” movement would hardly be the problem it is today.”

    The reason that the “anti-vax” movement is so popular, is because our government is liberal. They gave into them – like watering down the vaccines!

    #1156023

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Right, that is what your job is supposed to be, and what nobody believes you do anymore.

    and

    If more physicians responded to their patients with patience, flexibility, compassion, and information rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering, then the so-called “anti-vax” movement would hardly be the problem it is today.

    Okay, so the anti-vax movement comes from lack of trust and comfort with physicians. That doesn’t make it right or any less dangerous.

    #1156024

    catch yourself
    Participant

    A man came to Rav Elyashiv ZT”L complaining about his wife. After listen8by to the man’s diatribe (which consisted of petty complaints), Rev Elyashiv said, “It seems to me that your life is too good.” As he left (no doubt upset that Rav Elyashiv didn’t understand him), our hero fell and broke his leg, requiring surgery and a hospital stay. Of course, he learned then just how grateful he should be for his wife’s devotion.

    I don’t want to say that we are too healthy, but let’s just put aside the rhetoric and contemplate a world without vaccines.

    Of course there are side effects and risks, but for most people these are insignificant relative to the benefits.

    In short, this is a stupid debate.

    As an aside, few people care as deeply for children as Dr. Shanik, and none care for as many. The antivaxxer movement is perhaps the only issue which can get him visibly upset.

    Do you doubt his motivation to encourage vaccination?

    #1156025

    squeak
    Participant

    Just because pharma companies make harmful versions of vaccines does not mean you should completely avoid vaccines! It’s your responsibility to make them yourself. In my circles it is commonplace to have a continuous-flow centrifuge right next to the microwave and coffee maker on the kitchen counter. With some simple mail order biochemical compounds and a little elbow grease, you can make and administer your own vaccines in the comfort of your own home. Grinding recombitant proteins is a fun family activity and a great way to make quality time together.

    #1156026

    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    Thanks, Squeak, I needed that.

    Big Deal, who exactly are these doctors to whom you are referring?

    #1156027

    feivel
    Participant

    Mrs Plony: Google “doctors against vaccines”

    #1156028

    feivel
    Participant

    Also mrs Plony, I’m one of those doctors to whom he is referring.

    My children and grandchildren have received some vaccinations, according to my recommendations, selectively. I do not take into consideration how these decisions will affect the general health of the world. Only how those receiving the vaccinations ( in this case my family) will be affected.

    #1156029

    Joseph
    Participant

    Feivel, can you share specifically which vacs you discourage your children/grandchildren from receiving, and your reasoning for each of those decisions?

    #1156030

    feivel
    Participant

    Joseph, no.

    Would be technical, time consuming and likely lead to an embroiling unpleasant “discussion” here.

    brief sample on the more famous ones:

    Diphtheria no. Rare

    Yet polio yes though also rare, highly contagious and frequently devastating outcome.

    Tetanus yes.

    Pertussis depends on current situation.

    #1156031

    feivel
    Participant

    I left out an important principle. Diphtheria is treatable. Polio isn’t. Basically.

    #1156032

    Health
    Participant

    feivel -“Diphtheria no. Rare

    Yet polio yes though also rare, highly contagious and frequently devastating outcome.”

    “I left out an important principle. Diphtheria is treatable. Polio isn’t. Basically.”

    I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?

    Your opinions are illogical! The theory in medicine is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

    Not giving these shots are against the Torah and is dangerous!

    From the CDC:

    “Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates dropped quickly due to the widespread use of vaccines. Between 2004 and 2015, 2 cases of diphtheria were recorded in the United States. However, the disease continues to cause illness globally. In 2014, 7,321 cases of diphtheria were reported worldwide to the World Health Organization, but many more cases likely go unreported.

    #1156033

    feivel
    Participant

    As you pointed out: “Between 2004 and 2015, 2 cases of diphtheria were recorded in the United States”

    I wasn’t stating an opinion as to what I believe global public policy should be.

    I was (briefly and partially) explaining, as Joseph requested, why my kids took a pass on that vaccine.

    #1156034

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    I just got a good laugh. Most of the practitioners that I know aren’t like your portrayal!

    Glad you’ve had good experiences for the most part.

    If yours’ is, how about going elsewhere?

    We did.

    The reason that the “anti-vax” movement is so popular, is because our government is liberal. They gave into them – like watering down the vaccines!

    Now I just got a good laugh.

    1. Opposition to vaccines is coming just as much from the extreme right as it is the extreme left. Some of the Republican presidential candidates even questioned vaccines.

    2. You’re trying to refute anti-vaccine conspiracy theories with… conspiracy theories? Good luck with that.

    #1156035

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Okay, so the anti-vax movement comes from lack of trust and comfort with physicians. That doesn’t make it right or any less dangerous.

    Never argued that it did. But if the actual goal of the greater medical community is to increase vaccination rates, then perhaps they should do some soul searching and recalibrate their response to people… because it is clearly not working.

    #1156036

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?

    Are you a physician and immunologist?

    #1156037

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    feivel,

    Diphtheria no. Rare

    Tetanus yes.

    Pertussis depends on current situation.

    Usually (at least around here) these three immunizations come together as the DTaP vaccine. Do you request separate Tetanus and/or Pertussis vaccines in order to avoid the Diphtheria one?

    #1156038

    feivel
    Participant

    “I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?”

    Not much.

    #1156039

    feivel
    Participant

    Tetanus is readily available by itself.

    D and P are usually bundled (with T) but as I recall P is available by itself ( it’s been a while, could be that my kids were forced to get the D in order to get the P)

    D and T are readily available together. It’s common for people to request these two as Pertussis is the one responsible for fever and subsequent seizures.

    I don’t know if D is available separately.

    #1156040

    feivel
    Participant

    note to Joseph:

    May I assume that as I graciously answered your question, against my better judgement, you will field any further queries related to said post?

    #1156041

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Glad you’ve had good experiences for the most part.”

    My experiences are not like yours! You probably had one bad experience & then decided to generalize about medical practitioners.

    My experiences are from being in the medical field for many years.

    “2. You’re trying to refute anti-vaccine conspiracy theories with… conspiracy theories? Good luck with that.”

    For the most part, my posts are based on truth, not theory!

    It’s a fact – that the government removed Thymersil from a lot of vaccines. WHY????

    #1156042

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel -“So what do you know about vaccinations?!?

    Not much.”

    That’s the first truthful thing you posted about vaccinations!

    #1156043

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Feivel, I’m a little confused. If I understand correctly, you chose not to administer D vaccines to your children because the disease is rare in the U.S., even as you acknowledge that it has a much higher incidence worldwide. It seems obvious that the reason D is so rare in this country is that we vaccinate our children (as indicated in the quote from CDC, above), not that they are somehow less susceptible to this disease.

    We all know that when individuals start choosing not to vaccinate, it increases the risk to themselves as well as to the rest of the population (see the OP). Why didn’t you vaccinate your children?

    #1156044

    feivel
    Participant

    I would say Avrams GENERAL impression of physicians IN GENERAL, as a common and pervasive mindset pretty much accords with my experience. Except that I haven’t found bullying to be that common and he neglected to mention trigger happy defensiveness, and of course, a profound arrogance. IN GENERAL.

    There are plenty of very fine physicians Baruch HaShem!

    #1156045

    Joseph
    Participant

    catch yourself: As Feivel requested I field these questions, allow me to respond on his behalf. I refer you to his earlier comment(s), specifically, “I do not take into consideration how these decisions will affect the general health of the world. Only how those receiving the vaccinations ( in this case my family) will be affected” and “I wasn’t stating an opinion as to what I believe global public policy should be.”

    (Feivel: How am I doing?)

    #1156046

    catch yourself
    Participant

    @ Feivel:

    cc @ Joseph:

    Please respond to the main point, “we all know…increases the risk to themselves…”

    In any case, I do not understand how there can be a difference between what is beneficial for the “health of the world” and what is beneficial for a specific individual who does not have specific contraindications for a vaccine. Is it not beneficial to the individual to have herd immunity?

    #1156047

    feivel
    Participant

    Super

    #1156048

    Joseph
    Participant

    cy: An individual can benefit from herd immunity without being part of the herd and thus avoid the risk of immunization from a particular rare, but treatable, disease such as diphtheria.

    This approach would fit into the two quotes in my last comment.

    #1156049

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can also save yourself the tircha of voting because the chances of a candidate winning by one vote are infinitesimal.

    #1156050

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You can also save yourself the tircha of voting because the chances of a candidate winning by one vote are infinitesimal.

    I’m not registered to vote. But if I was, I’d vote for TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!!!

    #1156051

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: Most eligible American voters take that approach.

    #1156052

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Well, then, in your case, I’m glad your selfishness is consistent.

    #1156053

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Look who our president is.

    #1156054

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Anyhow, popa, why would you bother? Do you think he’ll win because of your solitary vote?

    #1156055

    Health
    Participant

    feivel -“I would say Avrams GENERAL impression of physicians IN GENERAL, as a common and pervasive mindset pretty much accords with my experience. Except that I haven’t found bullying to be that commom…”

    “on rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering,”

    Rigidity – I’ll give you, but putdowns and fear mongering, you’ve found common?!?

    #1156056

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    You probably had one bad experience & then decided to generalize about medical practitioners.

    Just laughed again, thanks. Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?

    My experiences are from being in the medical field for many years.

    Irrelevant. This is about the patient’s experience, not the provider’s.

    For the most part, my posts are based on truth, not theory!

    Yeah? Tell me more about my own experience and knowledge, despite not knowing who I am.

    It’s a fact – that the government removed Thymersil [sic] from a lot of vaccines. WHY????

    Thimerosal is a preservative containing a form of mercury that prevents bacteria or fungal growth in medicines for injection. Please explain exactly how its removal “weakens” a vaccine, or how its removal increased public avoidance of vaccination?

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