Gee thanks, anti-vaxxers

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  • #1156264

    feivel
    Participant

    Health: “When you come here and defend the Anti-vaxx guys, a lot of people go for it.”

    “I’m sure you don’t want to promote such behavior!”

    Health: “I don’t think anyone would be persuaded one or another by s/o’s posting!”

    #1156265

    big deal
    Participant

    “The reason you don’t need so many shots when the kid is older, “fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older” is simply because Hemophilus bacteria is part of the normal flora!”

    I was hoping you’d take care of it for me. Thanks.

    (I don’t see how what you quoted makes sense but you obviously found some kind of source, plausible to you, which states that older children need fewer boosters)

    #1156266

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“So are strep and staph bacteria. What difference does that make?”

    They don’t have a vaccine against Strep for kids. Same idea about Hemophilus bacteria when the kids get older!

    #1156267

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel – I knew s/o like you would post that.

    Now that you retired from eye medicine and became an English teacher;

    What is the difference between persuaded & promote?!?

    #1156268

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    You’re not really answering the question. Hib is recommended for children under 5 years old, so your answer regarding 15 months of age makes no sense. Hib vaccines yield a weaker and shorter lasting immune response in infants than they do older children. That is the reason that multiple doses are needed in infancy and a final booster at ~15 months is given. And that is also why no further subsequent doses are needed after 15 months, even if the child didn’t receive the infant series. The immune response is more robust.

    #1156269

    big deal
    Participant

    Lol Health. What was it you wanted to say. Let’s start again. Don’t leave out any exclamation points it might make your position look shaky.

    #1156270

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Better for the vaccinations to be spread out, or even one or two declined, than to demand the parents stick to the schedule and threaten to deny them medical care, which will potentially result in the kid not getting any more vaccinations (or checkups.”

    Stop clowning around! You answered yourself why the schedule is the way it is!

    “Hib vaccines yield a weaker and shorter lasting immune response in infants than they do older children.”

    #1156271

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Avram: there are two sides. One side follows what’s observed by the best experts to be best for public health while keeping the individual interests as an exceptionally high priority. The other side thinks they know better that the experts.

    You seem to be “poseach al shnei se’ifim.” From the vaccination conversations I’ve had with people, your stance seem uncommon.

    #1156272

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish,

    One side follows what’s observed by the best experts to be best for public health while keeping the individual interests as an exceptionally high priority. The other side thinks they know better that the experts.

    Uh huh, I see. Which side are you on? I can’t tell because of how balanced and fair your descriptions were. 🙂

    You seem to be “poseach al shnei se’ifim.” From the vaccination conversations I’ve had with people, your stance seem uncommon.

    I don’t think my stance is uncommon, but it seems that typically the louder the voice, the less nuanced the viewpoint.

    #1156273

    ironpenguin
    Member

    One type of immunity that doctors rely on is called “herd immunity” It assumes that because most of the population is immunized, even non immunized people are protected. The more people that refuse vaccinations increases the risk of everyone, even immunized people because vaccines aren’t magic. It is possible for a person, like me for example, to be immunized and the vaccine does not “take” for a variety of reasons.

    Also, certain extremely dangerous illnesses have been eliminated from the population because of aggressive vaccination. I’m not talking about chicken pox that is relatively benign to a healthy child. Whose kid has had polio nowadays? Polio has been largely eradication because of vaccination.

    Refusing vaccination will

    1) make your child susceptible to infectious diseases which can be debilitating and deadly.

    2) Infect others who are non vaccinated or non immunized despite vaccination

    3) Precipitate the return of deadly infectious diseases.

    #1156274

    gavriel613
    Participant

    “”It is an obligation to listen to the doctors (Maharik Shoresh 159, Shevut Yaakov 1:65, Yalkut Yosef Kitzor Shulchan Aruch Laws of the Doctor and the Obligation to be Cured 2).”

    This is a misquote from those seforim. I checked the Maharik (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1142&st=&pgnum=178&hilite=) and the Shvus Yaakov (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1519&st=&pgnum=31&hilite=), they do not say that a person is OBLIGED to listen to every health pointer a doctor might give you. They say that we can RELY on a doctor. They’re discussing Niddoh and Tvilo shalos. For example, if the doctor says that wine on the hair doesn’t tangle the hair, you can RELY on him that this won’t cause a chatzizo.

    So, for things which halacha dictates, you accept the doctors point of view. Something the doctor says is dangerous to the point of being life threatening, you can rely on him to be right, and therefore this would be included in the issur of sakonas nefoshos (see Rambam Rotzeiach perek 12). However if it may just cause non-fatal illness, I am unaware of any halocho reason that you can’t do it. Furthermore, someone who is already ill even with a fatal illness, I am unaware of any halachic chiyuv to heal himself. Inasmuch as there is no chiyuv, there is no reason for him to accept the doctors opinion if he thinks he knows better, as even if he did accept the doctors opinion he doesn’t have to do it.

    DISCLAIMER: I’m not sure what I’ve written is true. Just varfing a svoro. If anyone knows better please lmk.

    #1329051

    mw13
    Participant

    Frum The Sun:

    TRAGIC TWIST Mum Imogen Petrak who died hours after giving birth may have caught deadly ear infection from her unvaccinated toddler

    Heartbreaking image shows Australian mum Imogen Petrak’s son giving her a kiss before she died in the hospital
    By Maryse Godden
    30th July 2017, 1:37 pm
    Updated: 30th July 2017, 3:33 pm

    AN AUSTRALIAN mum who died after giving birth may have caught a deadly disease from her own unvaccinated toddler.

    Imogen Petrak, from the Gold Coast, was 36 weeks pregnant when she was rushed to hospital on July 14 with severe swelling of her brain after complaining of an ear infection.

    Mother Imogen Petrak is given a ‘final kiss goodbye’ by her son JB after she becoming critically ill through an ear infection

    The 35-year-old delivered her daughter Eleanor by an emergency C Section – four weeks premature – but died from severe swelling of her brain.

    Blood tests confirmed she died from pneumococcal meningitis, The Daily Telegraph reported.

    It is believed her 17-month old son JB, who was not vaccinated, was also unwell in the days leading up to her death – and may have passed on the deadly disease.

    The vaccine for the pneumococcal infection is on the National Immunisation Program Schedule and should be given to babies at two, four and six months.

    Baby Eleanor was released from hospital at eight days old. Her father John told Gold Coast Bulletin: “Imogen’s biggest dream was to see our daughter and she didn’t get to do that.

    An online GoFundMe page was set up by her friend Renee, who runs a local playgroup which is attended by JB.

    The campaign, which is aiming to raise the equivalent of £60,000, has already raised more than £40,000 to support Imogen’s husband John and pay for funeral costs.

    An image on the page captures her other child, 17-month-old JB, kissing her in hospital in the final moments of her life.

    It reads: “Imogen was loved by all that crossed her path, she had the biggest heart and sweetest loving spirit, an incredible selfless mother and cherished wife.

    “Eleanor is doing well but her mummy Imogen suffering catastrophic brain damage only hours later tragically passed away.

    “Her husband John is now left a widower with their two babies, 17 month old JB and new prem baby Eleanor.

    #1329514

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Very tragic news. A healthy 35 year old dying from a pneumococcal meningitis is extremely rare. In fact, I don’t believe routine vaccinations are done for adults under 65 years. Giving Prevnar to infants is intented to protect them from infection, not necessarily their parents.

    BTW – the Internet is already full to the brim with vaccine horror stories, so you’re better off fighting this issue with logic, not scare tactics.

    #1499431

    mw13
    Participant
    #1500097

    doomsday
    Participant

    If the mothers got chicken pox while pregnant its because they got the chicken pox vaccine which is TEMPORARY IMMUNITY while getting chicken pox give you LIFETIME IMMUNITY and nursing mothers can pass the antibodies to their babies (but not vaccinated mothers).

    #1500103

    doomsday
    Participant

    There are thousands of mothers who report that their healthy children had seizures after vaccines and were severely brain damaged permanently! Big Pharma got protection from malpractice suits (why is that necessary if vaccines are so safe?) but US “vaccine court” paid out nearly 4 Billion in compensation to vaccine injured children – even with denying 2/3 of claims to cover-up how many are really injured. And most injured don’t even make claims. On the Vaccine Inserts (which no parent is ever shown) it says can cause Death, Seizures, Encephalitis, AUTISM, etc.
    American Children: 1:6 learning disabled 1:9 asthma 1:10 mental disorder 1:13 severely allergic 1:20 epileptic 1:50 autistic, 1:400 diabetic• childhood cancer skyrocketing, SIDS skyrocketing
    ARE VACCINES WORTH THE RISK??? Big Pharma makes Billions on Vaccines and TRILLIONS are sick children!

    #1500137

    Health
    Participant

    doomsday -“If the mothers got chicken pox while pregnant its because they got the chicken pox vaccine which is TEMPORARY IMMUNITY while getting chicken pox give you LIFETIME IMMUNITY”

    Stop with your lies!
    Why do you keep changing your screen name?!? Last time it was “Chance”?
    From Google:
    “Shingles – A reactivation of the chickenpox virus in the body, causing a painful rash.”
    I’m Not going to address your other post – because people like you can’t be changed!

    #1500177

    Joseph
    Participant

    Question for those who are antivaxxers or who understand their position:

    Do you think it would be a good thing or even an okay thing if everyone chose, like you have, to not vaccinate?

    #1500178

    Non Political
    Participant

    As I already pointed out in the comments on the article re: Rich Roberts.

    Obviously all the pro vaxx docs are on the take from big pharma. But that’s just the icing on the cake. It’s really much worse then that. You see, big Pharma is really in cahoots with Russia, China, and North Korea to spread autism in the West.

    The whole medical establishment is one big sham. They’re just in it for the money! Thank goodness for the righteous chiropractors, applied kinesiologists, homeopaths, and traditional chinese medicine practitioners out there. They are holding up the fort and fighting the good fight to keep us well. And of course אהרן אהרן חביב the holy malpractice lawyers. These paradigms of chesed are never EVER motivated by profit.

    #1500182

    doomsday
    Participant

    The Pregnant Mother was Vaccinated against Chicken Pox as a Child but the immunity wore off – it’s only Temporary immunity. Had the mother gotten harmless Chicken Pox as a child she would have had Permanent Lifetime immunity. Understand?

    #1500183

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    If Big Pharma is in cahoots with China, how are they allowing Chinese medicine?

    #1500259

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you think it would be a good thing or even an okay thing if *everyone* chose, like you antivaxxers have, to not vaccinate?

    #1501148

    Health
    Participant

    doomsday -“Had the mother gotten harmless Chicken Pox as a child she would have had Permanent Lifetime immunity. Understand?”

    I just proved in my previous post – acquiring Chicken pox doesn’t provide Lifetime immunity. UNDERSTAND?!?

    #1502427

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ RBS Gimmel

    “If Big Pharma is in cahoots with China, how are they allowing Chinese medicine?”

    Huh?? Big Pharma and China are NOT allowing traditional Chineses medicine. As I explained, they are united in their opposition to the the righteous chiropractors, applied kinesiologists, homeopaths, and traditional chinese medicine practitioners in the hope of weakening the West.

    Really the root of the problem goes back to antiquity when the enemies of all that is good led a conceptual revolution and succeeded in spreading the falsehood that we need empirical evidence for medical intervention to be deemed reliable.

    #1502433

    hml
    Participant

    When my daughter got chicken pox (she actually had it twice) the pox got into her ears & she was deaf, until a nice Palestinian consultant operated. Did my daughter have to go through that? Unfortunately yes, because in those days, there wasn’t a vaccine.

    HER daughter, at 7 years old, got shingles. For children to catch that is extremely rare, apparently. Anti-vaxxers are beyond selfish – to their own children as well as others. If you are worried about side effects, do what I did – go for single doses instead of the 3 in 1 MMR.

    Charliehall… have you been in jail or something? We haven’t heard from you in a long while. And on your return, you actually posted something that makes sense, is not Marxist, and is on target. Keep it up.

    #1502579

    Health
    Participant

    Hml – Sorry for your Tzoros! But thanks for posting. I believe the anti – vaxxers are mentally ill or they were so spoiled as kids or even as adults, that they think if vaccines aren’t perfect, we must do away with them!

    #1502846

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The Great Battle of Scare Stories!

    “My kid was totally healthy, but then right after he got vaccinated, he became an asthmatic diabetic on the spectrum!”

    “Mom dies of freak illness that she may have gotten from an unvaccinated kid!”

    This is unlikely to convince anyone. Parents who consciously choose not to vaccinate are not selfish, nor are they stupid. They are afraid, and skeptical of what they are told by authority. And this comes from both sides of the political spectrum. Conservatives don’t trust the government. Liberals don’t trust the pharmaceutical companies. President Trump linked vaccines to autism on the campaign trail, advocating against “one time massive shots.” And add on top of that a breakdown in trust between doctors and patients. If this “battle” is going to be won, it has to take place in the exam room, with a doctor actually seeing his patients as human beings, and treating them as such. Maybe even getting to know them, rather than seeing them as nuisances with too many questions taking up too much time, or as threats to his/her perceived authority. Medicine is no longer seen as מן from above, doled out by benevolent superiors who know best. It’s a marketplace, and doctors are selling goods and services to customers. Time must be taken to actually identify and address fears and concerns, relate on an emotional level, and provide clear information that empowers patient decision making, not belittling or bullying them.

    #1502935

    Health
    Participant

    Avram -“President Trump linked vaccines to autism on the campaign trail, advocating against “one time massive shots.”

    Question – Did you vote for Trump?
    If not, why are you quoting his absurd comment?!?
    He is an actor – not everything he said is 100% truthful.

    #1502938

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    “Question – Did you vote for Trump?”

    Give me two million dollars and I’ll tell you who I voted for!

    “If not, why are you quoting his absurd comment?!?
    He is an actor – not everything he said is 100% truthful.”

    Of course he was pandering to his base when he tweeted that. I included it as an example that opposition to vaccines is coming from different parts of the political spectrum.

    #1502943

    Health
    Participant

    Avram -“Give me two million dollars and I’ll tell you who I voted for!”

    By any chance – do you post by any other SN’s?

    “I included it as an example that opposition to vaccines is coming from different parts of the political spectrum.”

    That’s my point – I doubt he is really opposed. So don’t try to politicize it!
    This is purely Medical Science.

    #1503007

    Meno
    Participant

    I’m going to start a thread called “Health Logic” and fill it with logically sound statements made by our beloved Health. I’ll start with this one:

    Did you vote for Trump?
    If not, why are you quoting his absurd comment?!?

    #1503038

    Health
    Participant

    Meno -“President Trump linked vaccines to autism on the campaign trail, advocating against “one time massive shots.”

    I actually agree that’s not a good idea to give one time massive shots, but the link to autism is ridiculous!

    #1503246

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I am a velociraptor. For proof, wire me just $999,999.99 and I’ll post it.

    #1503354

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Where do I send the money
    As a matter of fact I believe you so much you don’t need to show me the proof
    I just want to give you the money

    #1503576

    Health
    Participant

    Yidd23 -“I am a velociraptor”

    No you’re not!
    You posted many times – you’re a cashier in a grocery store.

    #1503580

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m a Rosh Yeshiva with 400 current talmidim. For $5,000 I’ll produce the unassailable proof.

    #1503590

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Joseph: A Rosh Yeshiva is usually busy sending his talmidim out of the coffee room not spending so much time there himself.

    #1503596

    Gales
    Participant

    Why do these ridiculous people keep on citing American anecdotal data as reflecting the influence of vaccines. There are many other countries where the same vaccinations are given and the incidence of all the maladies that are “associated” with vaccines in the USA are much less.

    #1503607

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Josef
    You are cheap
    I have the cash to give you
    For $22,861.39
    I will delivered r it to you

    #1579521

    yehudayona
    Participant

    It turns out that Russian trolls were among those stoking the anti-vaccine debate, basically to sow discord. They were trolling on both sides.

    #1579719

    laskern
    Participant

    Autism is not as bad as the illnesses one can acquire without it.

    #1579714

    laskern
    Participant

    We are doche shabbos for safek pikuach nefesh. Whoever resists vaccination might be ovar on ושמרתם את נפשותיכם protect your body and soul.

    #1579713

    laskern
    Participant

    Search ‘vaccination’ on this web web site the most recent:

    Israel: Litzman Favors a Mandatory Vaccination Policy

    #1580158

    laskern
    Participant
    #1580236

    Health
    Participant

    doomsday -“On the Vaccine Inserts (which no parent is ever shown) it says can cause Death, Seizures, Encephalitis, AUTISM, etc.”

    Do you know why the Gov. requires the pamplet to write this? It’s because of Quacks that the Gov. listened to. As a matter of fact, the Gov. is always listening to these Quacks!
    They pushed the Gov. to water down the Pertussis Vaccine.
    From the AAP:
    “The study, “Comparative Effectiveness of Acellular Versus Whole-Cell Pertussis Vaccines in Teenagers,” in the June 2013 issue of Pediatrics (published online May 20) looked at individuals born between 1994 and 1999 who received four pertussis-containing vaccines in the first two years of life. Some individuals received DTwP, and others received DTaP. The authors found that during a 2009 and 2010 pertussis outbreak, those teenagers who received DTaP had a six times higher risk of contracting pertussis due to waning immunity compared to those who received DTwP. Among teenagers who received DTaP, receipt of the Tdap booster did not overcome the advantage in protection from pertussis associated with previously receiving DTwP vaccines. The authors conclude that that research into developing new pertussis vaccines with improved accuracy is warranted!”

    #1580870

    laskern
    Participant
    #1584087

    laskern
    Participant
    #1606757

    mw13
    Participant
    #1606763

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    When we read in the media that presumably responsible adult rabbonim and askanim have themselves come down with communicable diseases that most likely could have been prevented by vaccination, you have to wonder what occupies the space between their ears!!! Its not just kids but many adults as well. They cannot be that ignorant of the risk they pose to others.

    #1607237

    laskern
    Participant
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