Gee thanks, anti-vaxxers

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  • #1156057

    feivel
    Participant

    Well kind of.

    The arrogance exudes like sweat on a Marine.

    The put downs and fear mongering are much more subtle and under the surface.

    #1156058

    feivel
    Participant

    Or maybe not.

    I think I’ll just stick with arrogance and leave the others to Avram

    #1156059

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The arrogance exudes like sweat on a Marine.

    Interesting simile.

    #1156060

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rigidity – I’ll give you, but putdowns and fear mongering, you’ve found common?!?

    A friend of mine wanted to have his kid receive all of the vaccinations, but wanted to space them out more than his pediatrician was recommending. The pediatrician declared, “so which deadly disease do you want your child to die from??” Fear mongering. Then the pediatrician stated that my friend’s kid would not be seen by that practice unless they kowtowed to their faster vaccination schedule. Rigidity and bullying. He also insulted my friend’s intelligence (not knowing that he is a statistician with a PHD) – putdowns. And this is hardly the only incident I have heard of from others (not to mention experienced myself, and not just in regards to vaccination).

    Doctors are not getchkes.

    #1156061

    feivel
    Participant

    It was either that or “like pimples on a teenager”

    But it’s Erev Shabbos.

    #1156062

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The anivaxxer movement is perhaps the only issue which can get him visibly upset.

    Do you doubt his motivation to encourage vaccination?

    No, not at all, but I wonder why the vaccine issue causes such hyperventilation among the medical community that many practitioners cannot dispassionately and compassionately explain the benefits of vaccines and the fallacies of the anti-vaccination advocates. Nor can many allow for alternate scheduling (which is what many parents want, yet they get painted as “anti-vaxxers”).

    Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar? Do they make sure the parents have a properly installed car seat, signal their turns, and don’t run red lights? That they don’t smoke? Do they ever mention keeping the handles of cooking pots turned away from the edge of the stove so little hands cannot grab them? Those are all much bigger health issues for kids right now than the vaccine brouhaha.

    #1156063

    feivel
    Participant

    They also took thimerosal out of all ophthalmic solutions. I doubt that was politically motivated.

    Thimerosal has a very high rate of allergic reaction, and is mildly toxic to corneal epithelium.

    #1156064

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar?

    What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.

    #1156065

    feivel
    Participant

    The reason for the difference Avram points out is because in all those issues he mentioned the patient is essentially saying: you’re right of course, but I’m lazy or whatever. By vaccines they are saying: I disagree with you. Even: you’re wrong and I’m right. Nothing gets a typical doctors blood to boil more. It’s like heating water on Mt. Everest.

    #1156066

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    but I wonder why the vaccine issue causes such hyperventilation among the medical community that many practitioners cannot dispassionately and compassionately explain the benefits of vaccines and the fallacies of the anti-vaccination advocates. Nor can many allow for alternate scheduling (which is what many parents want, yet they get painted as “anti-vaxxers”).

    Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar? Do they make sure the parents have a properly installed car seat, signal their turns, and don’t run red lights? That they don’t smoke? Do they ever mention keeping the handles of cooking pots turned away from the edge of the stove so little hands cannot grab them? Those are all much bigger health issues for kids right now than the vaccine brouhaha.

    This.

    #1156067

    feivel
    Participant

    “What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.”

    We already have a massive epidemic of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, peripheral vascular disease, and hypertension stemming from that candy bar type behavior. It doesn’t make their blood boil.

    #1156068

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The reason for the difference Avram points out is because in all those issues he mentioned the patient is essentially saying: you’re right of course, but I’m lazy or whatever. By vaccines they are saying: I disagree with you. Even: you’re wrong and I’m right. Nothing gets a typical doctors blood to boil more. It’s like heating water on Mt. Everest.

    Exactly. And they take it personally, because instead of being professionals about it, they’re usually arrogant jerks.

    Doctors in the U.S. are uniquely terrible at doing their job. If I was as bad at my job as doctors are at theirs, I’d have been fired the first day.

    Imagine a plumber who comes to your house, and says you have a leak in your pipe and need to fix it. And you say, I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that. So the plumber says if you don’t let him fix it, he’s never coming to your house again. Good plumber?

    #1156069

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I don’t propose to speak on his behalf as to why this issue is more upsetting to him than others. Perhaps, if a patient’s parent, as part of a growing movement among the impressionable masses, would seriously insist that, contrary to the position of the vast overwhelming majority of physicians, car seats do more harm than good, he would be equally agitated.

    Perhaps not, for the simple reason that the negligence to properly secure one’s own child in no way endangers those of others. In either case, it certainly seems to be neglectful of the child’s well-being.

    I can assure you that it is not his arrogance which causes him to get upset (he does not “hyperventilate”, and his blood does not “boil”), as you seem to believe. Anyone who knows Dr. Shanik can attest to this.

    #1156070

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t propose to speak on his behalf as to why this issue is more upsetting to him than others. Perhaps, if a patient’s parent, as part of a growing movement among the impressionable masses, would seriously insist that, contrary to the position of the vast overwhelming majority of physicians, car seats do more harm than good, he would be equally agitated.

    Perhaps not, for the simple reason that the negligence to properly secure one’s own child in no way endangers those of others. In either case, it certainly seems to be neglectful of the child’s well-being.

    I can assure you that it is not his arrogance which causes him to get upset (he does not “hyperventilate”, and his blood does not “boil”), as you seem to believe. Anyone who knows Dr. Shanik can attest to this.

    This.

    Especially the part about my kid eating a candy bar not killing your kid, and the part that even the minority of doctors who don’t have huge egos are also upset at the anti-vaxxers.

    #1156071

    catch yourself
    Participant

    For the record (this story had actually slipped my mind), when I brought my six year old to the pediatrician for her annual checkup, the doctor asked if she sits in a booster seat in the car (required up to age 8 where we live, believe it or not).

    When I responded in the negative, I was given a rather stern talking to by the doctor.

    When my friend brought his obese ten year old son for a checkup, the doctor (not the same one) read both the parents and the child the riot act, and gave them, in no uncertain terms, the prognosis for his condition.

    Apparently, some physicians do take these issues seriously.

    But still, there’s something special about the possibility of epidemic [especially of devastating illnesses] that somehow evokes the strongest ire. Go figure.

    #1156072

    catch yourself
    Participant

    What’s interesting to me is that, despite all the conspiracy theories about Big Medicine and Big Pharma teaming up with Big Government to make oodles of money by forcing us to vaccinate our children (none of which are substantiated), the established conflict of interest was actually in the conception of the antivaxxer movement (as is well known about the Wakefield study, which was even recanted by its co-authors).

    Kol haposel b’mumo posel.

    #1156073

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“You probably had one bad experience & then decided to generalize about medical practitioners.

    Just laughed again, thanks. Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?”

    Do you know the definition of”probably”? If not, ask Feivel.

    “My experiences are from being in the medical field for many years.

    Irrelevant. This is about the patient’s experience, not the provider’s.”

    What? Don’t you think that I’ve been on the other side of the fence also?!?

    “Yeah? Tell me more about my own experience and knowledge, despite not knowing who I am.”

    I wasn’t talking about your personal experience!

    “It’s a fact – that the government removed Thymersil [sic] from a lot of vaccines. WHY????

    Thimerosal is a preservative containing a form of mercury that prevents bacteria or fungal growth in medicines for injection. Please explain exactly how its removal “weakens” a vaccine, or how its removal increased public avoidance of vaccination?”

    You obviously didn’t begin to understand my point!

    I was pointing out that the removal was for the benefit of the Anti-vaxx nuts!

    #1156074

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“The pediatrician declared, “so which deadly disease do you want your child to die from??”Fear mongering.”

    Perhaps he was joking?

    “Then the pediatrician stated that my friend’s kid would not be seen by that practice unless they kowtowed to their faster vaccination schedule. Rigidity and bullying.”

    Rigidity – I agreed to in my previous post.

    This isn’t bullying! He’s being factual, even if the guy didn’t like that!

    #1156075

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    I’d like to summarize what I read here more pithily:

    There are 4 types of complainers about the current CDC public health [and vaccine] regime.

    1. The crazy and stupid big pharma cahoots conspiracy theory autistic people.

    2. The quasi-educated quasi-rational folks who want more flexibilty in the quantity and scheduling of the less-serious vaccines

    3. The people who purport to act in their own self interest at the expense of the herd.

    4. The people annoyed with misleading CDC rhetoric, even if they understand their worthwhile goals.

    “1” is what ruins the general credibility of anti-vaxxers. Being on the same side of an argument as logical sewage makes your argument smell. “2” could make occasional sense, sometimes, if done collaboratively with a thorough and knowledgeable physician or equivalent. “3” is selfish, and relies on others’ unselfish (and economically irrational) behavior to make your selfish behavior rational. Classic prisoner’s dilemma game theory idea. Relies on informational imbalances to work. “4” I relate to most. In the honorable quest of saving lives, truth becomes malleable to some and less important than behavioral results. I think truth is the highest of moral goals, think that dishonesty causes credibilty issues, and resent being a number and not being consulted on decisions that affect me.

    Public health is complicated. I don’t profess to have the moral answers. Science observes well. What we do with the observations ought to be an individual decision if not for the fact that there are herd questions. And the idiots, of course. Now what? Reasonable opinions ought to be debated dispassionately. Autistic anti-vaxxers ought to quiet down and attend the special autistic school on a farm upstate somewhere. There they can catch autism from each other while bringing down big pharma. And I ought to go to sleep. Thus I end my rant.

    #1156076

    Health
    Participant

    FNY-“3. The people who purport to act in their own self interest at the expense of the herd.”

    Eg. Diphtheria is not common in the US. So they don’t vaccinate.

    My problem is – who says what the Anti-vaxx guys are doing is even good for themselves?!?

    If the statistics change, all of a sudden, the Anti-vaxx guys aren’t going to change anything they do!

    Their selfishness is going to cause harm to themselves!!!

    #1156077

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Imagine a plumber who comes to your house, and says you have a leak in your pipe and need to fix it. And you say, I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that. So the plumber says if you don’t let him fix it, he’s never coming to your house again. Good plumber? “

    you missed a few steps first the plumber says well even if there is condensation this pipe is still leaking and needs repair and besides it is unlikely to be condensation since this room is very dry and the humidity is too low for any condensation to occur. and even if moist it is too cool for any copndesation to occur etc etc

    And the response is “I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that.”

    And the plumber replies well as Ive explained… (how many threads are on this forum on this very subject?)

    This goes in circles for a while with the person insisting what they read online is correct. Yes the plumber should say ok if you don’t want my services you are welcome to find a different plumber.

    #1156078

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Health- I’m differentiating between Antivaxxer nutjobs and people like PBA and feivel who appear to be rational (in a limited way) albeit selfish actors. If things change I’d doubt this category would have trouble adapting.

    #1156079

    feivel
    Participant

    More like;

    Mr plumber please check over all my plumbing. Fix the broken upstairs toilet. Let me know if you find anything else, and we’ll discuss it. But don’t fix the leaky kitchen faucet. I know I’m not a plumber but I did some research and I would rather let it leak.

    Plumber: Not only could that leaky faucet cause problems later but it’s a waste of the planet’s resources. I refuse to have anything to do with you. Goodbye.

    #1156080

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    but it’s a waste of the planet’s resources.

    More like:

    but it might cause your downstairs neighbor a lot of water damage.

    #1156081

    feivel
    Participant

    “More like:

    but it might cause your downstairs neighbor a lot of water damage.”

    No one claims one unvaccinated child will significantly affect “herd immunity”.

    You should better make an analogy like: sure your leaky faucet won’t impact our planet, but if everyone refused to fix their faucets. Then there would be a real problem.

    And that’s certainly true. If enough people refuse vaccination we are seriously risking deadly outbreaks.

    And I’m all for public policy strongly educating and pressuring people to vaccinate. As far as mandating it, I don’t know. Big philosophical, ethical, and constitutional questions there.

    #1156082

    feivel
    Participant

    This doctor plumber comparison reminds me of a pretty funny joke.

    #1156083

    kapusta
    Participant

    More like:

    but it might cause your downstairs neighbor a lot of water damage.

    Why you should vaccinate and date closer in age 101.

    #1156084

    feivel
    Participant

    I don’t remember it but it was pretty funny.

    #1156085

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why you should vaccinate and date closer in age 101.

    Excellent. I don’t know how many people get your comparison, but it works.

    #1156086

    kapusta
    Participant

    Thanks. Now we can debate the definition of the word might and why you would put your neighbors possible needs before your own definite needs.

    #1156087

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Or your neighbor’s possible needs before your possible needs?

    Of course, they’re not precisely the same, and certainly in the case if shidduchim, individuals have specific needs, but the thought process should be the same, even if the decision is not.

    #1156088

    kapusta
    Participant

    It was a surface comparison but everything should be assessed on an individual basis. I don’t have very strong feelings about vaccines in either direction but I’m always happy to oppose a very questionable age gap fix-all. In both cases though, I would suggest people doing their own research instead of just following the crowd. Didn’t mean to take over the thread.

    #1156089

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nobody ever claimed that it was a “fix-all”.

    #1156090

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Now we need to revive the shidduch vaccine thread.

    #1156091

    feivel
    Participant

    Great (sarcastic).

    Now kapusta has totally taken over the thread.

    Like she didn’t mean to (sarcastic)

    #1156092

    kapusta
    Participant

    So you admit that it’s not a fix-all? 😉

    In my experience, much of the effects of the “crisis” (for now, that would be unmarried singles) are being blamed on the age gap without looking at other factors. Perhaps that would have been a better way to phrase it.

    Can we do this on another thread? I was enjoying the discussion here.

    #1156093

    Quick question:

    When one vaccinates, are they expressing to HaShem an underlying distrust in the body and immune system He endowed us all with?

    #1156094

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Kapusta, will do, bl”n.

    Defining "The Shidduch Crisis"

    Excitedforlife, not any more than any use of medications, or any hishtadlus we do.

    #1156095

    feivel
    Participant

    They are expressing a trust in the doctors that Hashem created for us and told us to listen to (for the most part).

    (and you are probably well aware that’s not a quick question)

    #1156096

    kapusta
    Participant

    Of course I meant to take it over. I only wrote that so I can use it when someone complained that I took it over. Haro’eh es hanolad. (Sarcasm continued)

    #1156098

    This thread just disappoints. Does it really truly accomplish anything toward making the world more peaceful for HaShem’s Presence? Quite the opposite. Shame on us for publicly expressing our grievances and committing who knows how many transgressions of at least lashon hara, and possibly more. Why not turn to HaShem and cry out?

    #1156099

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Shame on us for publicly expressing our grievances and committing who knows how many transgressions of at least lashon hara, and possibly more.

    Where? What loshon hora?

    #1156100

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I think for the most part it has been a civil, if sometimes passionate, discussion of an important issue.

    I suppose, now that you point it out, that my mention of a specific individual as being beyond reproach may have been avak lashon hara, but I am not even sure of this (although I’d rather not have the Halachic discussion right now).

    #1156101

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    you missed a few steps first the plumber says well even if there is condensation this pipe is still leaking and needs repair and besides it is unlikely to be condensation since this room is very dry and the humidity is too low for any condensation to occur. and even if moist it is too cool for any copndesation to occur etc etc

    And the response is “I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that.”

    And the plumber replies well as Ive explained… (how many threads are on this forum on this very subject?)

    What doctor do you know who would engage on the topic? When I signed my kid up for pediatrician, the receptionist made me agree to not try to delay vaccinations before they’d accept me as a patient. If you try to ask questions, it apparently makes Dr Shanik “visibly upset” (never met him, but see above).

    #1156102

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Okay, so based on PBA’s post, I concede that it was in fact Avak Lashon Hara.

    Let me correct the record. A legitimate question asked in a sincere way would not upset him in the slightest (I don’t think). The narcissistic stupidity of the antivaxxer movement is what upsets him.

    I have engaged several doctors on the subject, and I have never encountered resistance to an open discussion of it. I have never personally experienced, nor even heard of, a doctor saying anything like, “If you even try to delay vaccines we will not take you as a patient.”

    #1156103

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would you really expect a pediatrician to engage in open discussion about the same topic with every meshugener anti-vax parent who comes in? She’s come to her conclusion a long time ago, and has every right to say that if you don’t agree with her approach, go find another pediatrician.

    A lot of pediatricians are overbooked as it is, and some don’t take new patients at all. Why should they waste their time rehashing the same nonsense over and over again?

    #1156104

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Would you really expect a pediatrician to engage in open discussion about the same topic with every meshugener anti-vax parent who comes in? She’s come to her conclusion a long time ago, and has every right to say that if you don’t agree with her approach, go find another pediatrician.

    Everyone has a right to do whatever they want. But if you want to know why there’s an anti-vaxxer movement to begin with, I think this is the reason.

    #1156105

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bad reason.

    That would be like someone being annoyed that when he calls a busy posek for a shailah, he won’t go through the whole sugya with him, so he starts an anti-kashrus movement.

    Bow you know why we think anti-vaxxers are a bunch of r****ds.

    #1156106

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel -“(and you are probably well aware that’s not a quick question)”

    I’m sorry, but it’s Not a question at all. It’s a statement!

    #1156108

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.

    Thanks for the hyperventilation demonstration 🙂

    Yes, there are off-the-wall knee-jerk “anti-vaxxers” who cannot distinguish between small and tiny probabilities (e.g., panicking over tiny risks in vaccines while poo-pooing orders of magnitude higher fatality rates in diseases), or who hold by pharmaceutical conspiracy theories, etc. I imagine that those types existed long before the infamous debunked autism study, and they will continue to exist, just like there will always be some people who refuse to evacuate the coast before a major hurricane.

    I really think, however, that a large part of what we are dealing with in the recent increase of unvaccinated children is in big part due to a breakdown in doctor patient trust and communication.

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