Gee thanks, anti-vaxxers

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  • #1156212

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Sure. (I consider myself a male like an apple considers itself a fruit.)

    #1156213

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Better for the vaccinations to be spread out, or even one or two declined, than to demand the parents stick to the schedule and threaten to deny them medical care,”

    Would you go into a bakery and tell the Baker – that you have a better recipe than his Challah & they should change to yours’?

    I think not!

    So how come the Anti -vaxxers think that they have the right to tell medical professionals what to do?!?

    If you don’t like what your doctor is doing – go somewhere else!

    As a matter of fact, in Lakewood, I heard about a pediatrician that lets you do what you want. He takes vaccinated kids & also Non-vaccinated kids. He moved here from Flatbush.

    #1156214

    feivel
    Participant

    Shaken then

    #1156215

    feivel
    Participant

    Not stirred

    #1156216

    feivel
    Participant

    “So how come the Anti -vaxxers think that they have the right to tell medical professionals what to do?!?

    They are asking them to do, for them. Not for their other patients.

    Because physicians, like any other professional, are supposed to, using their expertise, advise and work with their clients. Ultimately fulfilling the clients wishes when possible. The patients are not fodder for the physicians practice.

    #1156217

    feivel
    Participant

    This is the entire crux of the matter as far as I’m concerned.

    The typical physicians view of his role vs the patients view of his role.

    #1156218

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    Would you go into a bakery and tell the Baker – that you have a better recipe than his Challah & they should change to yours’?

    No that’s an unrealistic analogy. I wouldn’t give a bakery my wife’s recipe, but I might sell it to them. At a restaurant, however, I very well would ask for sauce on the side, substitute this side for that, and decline the free sodas that comes with my kids’ meals.

    So how come the Anti -vaxxers think that they have the right to tell medical professionals what to do?!?

    Wow, what a mindset. If I tell my doctor that I want to space out vaccinations, I am not overstepping any boundary whatsoever. I’m not telling the doctor what to do, the doctor is telling me what he thinks I should do, and I am responding to him. I am making decisions about my own family. And that is not only my right, it is my obligation.

    How far do you take this deification of medical professionals? If I see a doctor about to make a medical mistake (wrong medication, about to saw off the wrong arm, whatever), do you think I should remain quiet, because I have no right to tell medical professionals what to do?!? Ridiculous.

    If you don’t like what your doctor is doing – go somewhere else!

    Good advice.

    #1156219

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    feivel,

    This is the entire crux of the matter as far as I’m concerned.

    The typical physicians view of his role vs the patients view of his role.

    Absolutely. When the cards are down, it’s less about public safety and more about perceived slights of honor.

    #1156220

    2scents
    Participant

    Physicians treat patients not symptoms, if you do not like the way your pediatrician manages your child’s health care, such as believing in vaccinations feel free to switch over to a different pediatrician.

    On the other hand, if you have a different belief on how your child’s health care should be managed then your pediatrician, your pediatrician has the right to exclude your child from their practice. Although it would be appropriate for your pediatrician to sit down and explain to you on why they believe in vaccinating children (as the CDC recommends doing) rather then just excluding the child from the practice.

    Most pediatricians I have bumped into are pretty reasonable, they usually agree in delaying vaccinations or giving them more spread apart.

    Also, there were some very reasonable posters with valid and reasonable concerns with regards to the current vaccination recommendations, however this is not the thinking of the main stream anti vaxxers, they are full of conspiracy theories and non sense.

    #1156222

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel -“They are asking them to do, for them. Not for their other patients.”

    True and they said No!

    “Because physicians, like any other professional, are supposed to, using their expertise, advise and work with their clients.”

    True.

    “Ultimately fulfilling the clients wishes when possible.”

    Very true!

    “The patients are not fodder for the physicians practice.”

    Also true!

    What you obviously don’t understand is the word No!

    If you don’t like what your doc is doing, you can go elsewhere!

    #1156223

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“No that’s an unrealistic analogy. I wouldn’t give a bakery my wife’s recipe, but I might sell it to them.”

    And what would the Baker do with the recipe?

    He’d put it in the suggestion box, aka the garbage!

    “Wow, what a mindset. If I tell my doctor that I want to space out vaccinations, I am not overstepping any boundary whatsoever. I’m not telling the doctor what to do, the doctor is telling me what he thinks I should do, and I am responding to him. I am making decisions about my own family. And that is not only my right, it is my obligation.”

    That’s your obligation and his obligation is to do what he thinks is right!

    If you think you know better about vaccination scheduling, you have the option of going elsewhere!

    “How far do you take this deification of medical professionals? If I see a doctor about to make a medical mistake (wrong medication, about to saw off the wrong arm, whatever), do you think I should remain quiet, because I have no right to tell medical professionals what to do?!? Ridiculous.”

    Your comparison to medical mistakes is ridiculous! Oh, that’s right you know better about vaccines, then some old – fashioned doctor!

    #1156224

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    And what would the Baker do with the recipe?

    He’d put it in the suggestion box, aka the garbage!

    He’d guard it like jewels and send thank you notes weekly.

    you have the option of going elsewhere!

    Why on Earth are you still repeating that point to me? Of course I do, and I already did. And I can also say that the previous doc handled things stupidly.

    #1156225

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“And I can also say that the previous doc handled things stupidly”

    He handled what he thought was good for the child and what was good for his business!

    He obviously doesn’t need your family’s business.

    #1156226

    big deal
    Participant

    Health – if I ask you if the period on your keyboard is broken because you’re overusing your exclamation point and you answer that if You don’t want to read my post then don’t, your not addressing the issue (yelling on a public forum). You’re trying to outshout me and get me to keep quiet before others will come along and agree with me.

    If medical proffessionals need to be so arrogant about their patient’s need for more spacing or reduction of certain vaccines that is suspect.

    #1156227

    kapusta
    Participant

    Aside from a child being older/stronger, what is the benefit of spreading out vaccines?

    #1156228

    big deal
    Participant

    1. Don’t know if this still applies today, but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.

    2. If a child reacts with a high fever every time he/she gets vaccinated, spreading them out gives them breathing room.

    #1156229

    feivel
    Participant

    3. as you said being older. more developed immune system.

    4. less of an intense, unrelenting assault (stimulation) on a delicate immature immune system.

    the above is only theoretical, though a reasonable hypothesis. one of the myriad of issues the “anti-vaccers” are concerned about

    #1156230

    feivel
    Participant

    note:

    seems there has been a HUGE increase in childhood allergies (innapropriate and overly intense response to allergens). somewhat during the same time period as the rise of vaccines. Gluten, peanuts, tree nuts, other.

    Could be many possible explanations other than the bombardment of the immune system with vaccines.

    Is it reasonable to suspect vaccines as a significant factor though?

    I think so. If so, what other long term effects could vaccines be causing which have not been detected so far?

    the rise in cancer rates? (which in many cases has been shown to be secondary to non-proper functioning of the immune system). All the, now very common, autoimmune diseases? Alzheimer’s?

    have any of the studies that “demonstrate the safety of vaccines” looked at this?

    #1156231

    feivel
    Participant

    for Health: !!!

    #1156232

    feivel
    Participant

    there is a generally accepted notion nowadays that inflammation is a very important causal component of heart disease. Maybe hypertension, strokes, diabetes as well. It’s an epidemic.

    Any relation to the early stimulation of an immature sensitive immune system?

    What’s the vaccination rates in the last 50 years among the Eskimos (sorry I can’t spell Inuit), among whom these diseases are essentially non existent?

    Sure there are other clearer possible explanations. Could lack of vaccines be one though?

    All this is speculation on my part of course. Just speculation.

    #1156233

    feivel
    Participant

    And even if you think it’s not “reasonable”, perhaps at least it’s not “insane” to want to be selective in choosing which vaccines your child gets. And scheduling them in a manner that might be less of an acute bombardment on their vitally crucial developing immune system.

    Many of the anti-vaccers might be nut-cases.

    But even they are the same nut-cases that were eating tofu and salad while you were blithely stuffing yourself with hotdogs and doughnuts. (not you)

    #1156234

    2scents
    Participant

    Some vaccines can wait while others put the child at unnecessary risk such as the pertussis vaccines.

    #1156235

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    He handled what he thought was good for the child and what was good for his business!

    He obviously doesn’t need your family’s business.

    Another doctor in the practice actually stepped in and had a consult with us and said he would be fine with us spacing out the vaccinations more. Since there’s no guarantee in a group practice which doctor you’d see during a sick visit, however, we took our business elsewhere. And we’re happy with our new practice just like Gamanit.

    #1156236

    kapusta
    Participant

    That makes sense. Thanks big deal and feivel.

    #1156237

    Health
    Participant

    Big deal -“If medical proffessionals need to be so arrogant about their patient’s need for more spacing or reduction of certain vaccines that is suspect”

    The only only arrogant ones are the ones that will never admit it!

    #1156238

    Health
    Participant

    Big deal -“1. Don’t know if this still applies today, but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.”

    Oh really? Who told you that – Feivel?

    Prove it!

    #1156239

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel -“seems there has been a HUGE increase in childhood allergies”

    There is! Do you want to know why? It’s nice that you Anti – vaxx guys can blame it on vaccines. We have a theory about it, but if you want to blame it on vaccines – do a scientific study!

    We have a different theory than you!!!

    Go back to school if you want to learn about it!!!

    #1156240

    feivel
    Participant

    the next line of that same post:”…many possible explanations other than the bombardment of the immune system with vaccines.”

    Health I like you. And you seem to be smart. Your apparent failure to comprehend and respond to even the simplest meaning of other persons posts, let alone the obvious implications must stem from an unbridled need to be perceived as correct, such an untempered need, regardless of any logic or relevance, even if the result is to appear to be a fool.

    There is no purpose in responding to your posts.

    #1156242

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I think that vaccines causing allergies makes sense. I feel that it is important for a child to be exposed to potential allergens that are part of vaccines prior to receiving the vaccine in order for the body not to associate this allergen with an immune response. If say a child has never eaten any peanut product, and then gets a shot that contains traces of peanut (note- I do not know if such a vaccine exists) the body may develop an immune response to peanuts as well as to whatever the vaccine was for. If the child’s immune system already “knows” peanuts as a safe food then that’s less likely to happen. I think every person should evaluate the risks/benefits with a clear head. A doctor does have a right to not have unvaccinated children in the same waiting room as the newborns coming for their one week check up. He should politely explain this to the parents, however.

    #1156243

    Health
    Participant

    feivel -“Health I like you”

    Feivel I like you too! When you post all types of people read it – fat ones, skinny ones, smart ones & stupid ones!

    When you come here and defend the Anti-vaxx guys, a lot of people go for it. Are you aware that some of the Frumme don’t vaccinate their kids? Now this has become a public health problem amongst Frum Jews!

    This is Not the Torah way & I’m sure you don’t want to promote such behavior!

    #1156244

    big deal
    Participant

    I don’t have to prove anything. You consider yourself an expert. Review the schedule of recommended immunizations and their boosters. You’ll find that certain ones are not administered if not done in the recommended time frame.

    Nobody here is supporting anti vaxers (as far as I can tell). Its personal choice and self education that’s being defended.

    #1156245

    Health
    Participant

    Big deal -“I don’t have to prove anything”

    That’s true! But at least admit your post is false: “but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.”

    #1156246

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    But at least admit your post is false: “but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.”

    Not false.

    Google “CDC Catch-up Immunization Schedule” and go to the first search result. For several immunizations (e.g., Hib), fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older.

    #1156247

    feivel
    Participant

    Health:

    I don’t have to google anything!!

    You do!

    Are you a health professional?!

    I am!

    You want to know what that article really means?

    I’m not going to tell you.

    Do your research!!!!!

    #1156248

    2scents
    Participant

    Feivel,

    Sorry if you mentioned this earlier, are there any vaccines that you believe that should be mandatory?

    #1156249

    feivel
    Participant

    Mandatory?

    You’re asking how do we balance the rights of an individual against the needs of the community.

    That’s a cheshbon way beyond my ability

    #1156250

    big deal
    Participant

    My statement is not false. I know this from personal experience.

    A lot of the immunization schedule is based on the antibodies a baby gets from its mother and when they “expire”. Boosters are needed to increase the immunity as the child grows and/or develops more of their own immune system. The in between ones usually become unnecessary.

    #1156251

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Google “CDC Catch-up Immunization Schedule” and go to the first search result. For several immunizations (e.g., Hib), fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older”

    Like I a fool, I looked at the site. You obviously misunderstood what they’re saying! The whole reason why you give boosters is because immunity wanes! You just don’t have to start all over again because you still have some immunity left.

    Btw, how did you become such a know-it-all?!?

    #1156252

    Health
    Participant

    Feivel -“Are you a health professional?!”

    I am.

    Btw, I like all the exclamation points in your post!

    You claim to be a eye doctor, but that was many years ago.

    I keep up with medicine!

    #1156253

    Health
    Participant

    Big deal -“The in between ones usually become unnecessary”

    “My statement is not false. I know this from personal experience.”

    Let me get this straight – the in-between ones aren’t necessary because of your personal experience; so therefore your statement is not false?!?

    #1156254

    big deal
    Participant

    Health:

    Amazing.

    You managed to get a license to become whichever medical professional you claim to be. Yet you can’t seem to deduce any logic or reasoning from basic reading comprehension.

    I doubt you’ll ever get this straight, based on your agenda.

    I never said I’d prove it to you. I said I know this as fact from personal experience. You’re welcome to do the research. I am uninterested in providing details.

    Secondly, by your own admission, boosters are needed because immunity wanes. The ones administered later are supposedly enough for life immunity. The sandwich ones, which are administered to cover a couple of years or months become excessive if immunizations are spread out enough.

    Thus, I’ve come a full circle in this discussion.

    #1156255

    feivel
    Participant

    “Thus, I’ve come a full circle in this discussion.”

    A circle is endless!!

    #1156256

    Health
    Participant

    Big deal -“I doubt you’ll ever get this straight, based on your agenda”

    Yes, my agenda is pro-vaxx. I got it straight, no matter how many anti-vaxxs there are!

    “I never said I’d prove it to you. I said I know this as fact from personal experience.”

    You can’t prove it, because science has already proven that vaccines help, no matter what your personal experience was!

    “You’re welcome to do the research.”

    We in science field have already done the research, years ago!

    “I am uninterested in providing details.”

    Thank you for not trying to make others to be Anti-vaxxes like you!

    #1156257

    oomis
    Participant

    I have no patience to read through all of these, so if I am repetitive, please be moichel me. If I am exposed to a child who had chicken pox, I can get shingles from him. I might get it anyway, having unfortunately HAD chicken pox as a child. Anything we can do to prevent a potential outbreak of diseases that were all but eradicated, should be done. The childhood diseases many of us had, had serious life-threatening effects on many children. Think about the Rubella babies whose moms contracted the disease while pregnant. No one has to get sick with these not so benign illnesses anymore, but for some ill-informed anti-vaxxers, who have single-handedly brought these plagues back, by believing their kids are more important than everyone else’s. BTW, if a newborn baby is exposed to a sibling who has the disease, if can have catastrophic ramifications, particularly if the mom never herself had the disease and was not vaccinated, as babies may get a limited amount of temporary immunities from their mom in utero, but it is of short duration. If she never had the illness, she has no such resistance to it to pass to her fetus.

    #1156258

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    Like I a fool, I looked at the site.

    You obviously did not look at it very closely.

    You obviously misunderstood what they’re saying!

    Nope.

    The whole reason why you give boosters is because immunity wanes! You just don’t have to start all over again because you still have some immunity left.

    I gave Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b – row 4 of the table) as an example. Look at the fourth row of the table. The table displays the minimum age for dosing (column 2), and then the minimum spacing between doses (rest of the columns, depending on how many doses of each vaccine are given). If you look at row 4, column 3, it clearly states that if the first dose of the Hib vaccine is given after the baby is 15 months old, no further doses are needed. If the first dose was given between 12 and 14 months, you wait 8 weeks and then only one more dose is needed. If you go by the CDC schedule, the baby gets 4 Hib shots (3 before the first birthday, and then a final one after a year). So delaying Hib does result in fewer boosters.

    Btw, how did you become such a know-it-all?!?

    This is not rocket science.

    #1156259

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“This is not rocket science.”

    What happened to you the last 3 days?

    You’re right, it’s Not science at all!

    The reason you don’t need so many shots when the kid is older, “fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older” is simply because Hemophilus bacteria is part of the normal flora!

    Now go back to sleep!

    #1156260

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Health: I am firmly pro-vaccine. You asked what effect feivel and avram may have on the masses. I think your shrill and irrational tone makes my side look less rational. It might hurt the typical reader from being persuaded to pro-vax’s correct point of view. Please become anti-vax so that I can once again be pro-vax with my dignity intact. Thank you!

    #1156261

    Health
    Participant

    FNY-“It might hurt the typical reader from being persuaded to pro-vax’s correct point of view.”

    I don’t think anyone would be persuaded one or another by s/o’s posting!

    #1156262

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    The reason you don’t need so many shots when the kid is older, “fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older” is simply because Hemophilus bacteria is part of the normal flora!

    So are strep and staph bacteria. What difference does that make?

    #1156263

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish,

    What defines the “sides” in your vaccine football game? What “side” do you consider me to be on?

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